The Ben Mulroney Show - Canada needs to wake up from the Coma we've been in, or we'll get swallowed up by America

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

Guests and Topics: -This near-trade war should shock Canada out of our stupor with Guest: Robyn Urback, Current affairs columnist with The Globe and Mail -Pierre Poilievre says life Sentences for Fentanyl Kingpins with Guest: Adam Zivo, National Post columnist and Executive Director for the Centre For Responsible Drug Policy If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Must be 19 years of age or older, Ontario only. Please gamble responsibly. Gambling problem? For free assistance, call the Connex Ontario helpline at 1-866-531-2600. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Welcome back to the Ben Mulrooney Show. And now that we've got a 30- day reprieve from the Trump tariffs, question is, what do we do next? Like this is, you know, we look, it looks like we've solved some of the problems

that Donald Trump has, but how do we take this scenario? How do we take this moment and turn it into an opportunity to better our country? And we've, I believe we, a lot of our weaknesses have been highlighted by this Trump administration. A lot of people don't like it, but he in a lot of ways has been speaking the truth, a truth that certain politicians have been beating the drum of for years.

And it's only now that other politicians are taking those things seriously. A valued voice on the media landscape who is saying just that is Robin Urbach. She's a current affairs columnist with the Globe and Mail. And she joins us now for the first time, but hopefully not the last on the Ben Mulroney show. Robin, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. You know, real leadership is about taking a crisis and finding a way to turn it into an opportunity. And I feel like we're, we're halfway there. We've definitely identified the crisis, we see the opportunity, but we as Canadians far too often fall short. We'll, we'll make a big bold predict, pronouncement, we're going to do X, Y and Z. We get, we get the photo op and, and then, then we don't finish the job. Yeah, that's exactly it.

And I think the situation now, it's twofold. There's a practical limitation to that, which is, of course, that Parliament isn't sitting and we have a lame duck Prime Minister and nobody can actually get things done and we have no idea who the next Prime Minister is going to be immediately after Justin Trudeau. And then, of course, we're going to see an election after that.

So there's that. I mean, we can't get things done because done because like literally parliamentarians aren't working the way that they're supposed to. So there's that. But then there's also I mean just the sort of institutional bias towards the status quo and we see it not just when it comes to trade. We see it on defense. We see it on health care. We see it on so many things in this country that we are sort of We see it on defense. We see it on health care. We see it on so many things in this country that we are sort of so committed to the way things are that if anyone comes along and proposes something bold or different, we all

sort of clutch our pearls and we say, oh, God, no, we can't do that. My hope is that the crisis that we're in right now and that may be revived in 30 days or 30 weeks. We have no idea with this presidency. I mean, we could get another 30 day reprieve and we're just going along for the ride for the next four years. But I think there is a chance now

because people really see in front of their eyes, okay, the way that we're doing things just isn't working. Our dependence on the US, both economically and for our own defense. I mean, we have let our forces just become this shell of what they could be in terms of procurement, recruitment, all of these things, because we have the convenient geography of living next to the strongest military in the world.

And that has served us very well. But then you have a mercurial president who comes along and all of a sudden says you're on your own and we look at what we've been doing and we say, oh crap, like maybe we shouldn't put the majority of our eggs in the U.S. basket. Not that we can really sell the eggs because it's the fly management, but that's a whole other opportunity. But I think it's right in front of people's faces now. And the reality is this isn't anything new. Like we've talked about, Ben, you know this, of course. We've talked about this for years, decades, generations,

really, the fact that Canada has become far too dependent on the US. And so far we've gotten away with it because there has been this adherence to norms and presidents who generally appreciate, you know, you treat your allies while they treat you well back, but Trump is different. And I think our concern should also be that Trump

is going to be gone in four years, unless he does something radical, which, you know, it's not beyond the realm of possibility, but Trumpism could outlast him. Well, yeah, and you make that point. You're like, the powers that be in Canada, in, if this were any other time, would just say, we've got to just wait this guy out.

Placate him, do whatever we have to do, kick the ball down the field, but he'll be gone. However, Trumpism is he's remade the GOP in his own image and his acolytes are young and they're driven and they see his vision as the way forward for America and they will be the ones to pick up the baton. So we have to be prepared that this is our new reality. And I wanna go back to something

that you said a little bit earlier, that anytime somebody comes with a bold idea on how we can do things differently, it's not just that they are unwilling to debate, they have been unwilling to debate the merits of that vision, but they will actively call that person out for being un-Canadian or being, I mean, I've been called a traitor on social media nonstop because I've questioned this government's

motivations and its sincerity and its ability to get anything done. And so like that's what they're up against. Right. And we see a lot specifically in health care too. Oh, yeah. When someone brings up the idea that okay, our health care system is broken, you shouldn't be waiting 17 hours in emergency rooms. The response is often well, what do you want the American system? Do you want to go broke? I know it's such a binary. I don't understand why why the simpletons who view the world through the eyes of a child like if it's not this and it must be

that I don't understand how they're able to monopolize the conversation. But that's the who view the world through the eyes of a child. Like if it's not this and it must be that. I don't understand how they're able to monopolize the conversation. But that's the thing though, they have done it, right? And I think you're right in those accusations or law that suddenly you're un-Canadian if you're questioning the value of the way that we've been doing things,

the way that we continue to do things, the way that the government's doing things right now, you're seeing that sort of betraying this oath to your country and the great thing about living in a democracy like Canada is you can question those things and you should because that's how great change happens, right? By someone standing up and saying, you know what, this isn't working. And even though the status quo is like this and everybody, even though everybody's afraid that we're going to end up with an American healthcare system, for example, we have to acknowledge that what we're doing isn't working.

So we need some change. But that's a real barrier, though, because whenever somebody says something like that, and to go back to the health care example, there's fear mongering within political academic circles. People saying, OK, well, so-and-so wants to privatize their health care system, so enjoy the free health care that you had so far.

Now you're going to go bankrupt, and this is what this the free healthcare that you had so far. Now you're gonna go bankrupt and this is what this person's doing and they back off. And it's a really big challenge. The inter-provincial trade barrier debate is one that we should have been having for a very, very long time. It does seem like at least initially at first blush, there is a desire to break those things down.

But once we get into the nitty gritty of those debates, the interest groups will come out and they will try to defend their small piece of the pie. It's going to be a long, long slog before anything gets done, if anything gets done at all. I think that's it. And I think the premieres too. I mean, they're talking big right now, but there are all these regulations that sort of protect the interests of one province against another. And it does all of Canada a disservice, but there are those narrow myopic sort of interests that stop progress in its tracks. So it is one of those things that, I mean, we've been talking about forever.

I can't remember when we weren't talking about inter-provincial trade barriers. But the one thing that's different right now, Robin, is that this is a conversation that's happening out loud in the public square. And real practical examples are being given to people. For example, this idea that in certain provinces, porta-potties have to have a lid, but in others, they don't. And so it makes- I didn't even know that.

Oh yeah, that's one I learned today as well. So it makes it hard to then sell that around the you can sell it north south, but you can't sell it east west. Interesting. And so, lids have been stopping progress across the country. Specifically in the outdoor urinals market. I mean, it's a niche, but it's there. But because people are now armed with examples, I mean, people with examples, people didn't even know in practical terms

what an inter-prudential trade barrier was until a few days ago. And so the fact that people are armed with that knowledge now might spur a little more heft beyond people just talking about it around a table and actually getting it done. I think you're right. I think it's been sort of one of those nerd topics where if you're really involved in political circles, for example, it's something that you like to talk about, kind of like Arctic sovereignty or, you know,

if you're those big deal things, but the average person doesn't care about, but I think this has punctuated that, or perforated that bubble, that political, intellectual, academic bubble. If you went to Costco, for example, a couple days before the trade war, it was, or the deadline for the tariffs rather, it was nuts. Because people were doing that sort of panic buying that we saw around COVID-19.

And for a second, I thought, well, what is going on? Then I realized, okay, well, the average person is taking note of what's going on. And they're worried that these tariffs are going to have an immediate effect, even though I don't think it would be that fast. But I think you're right in that these topics are sort of having a moment, like we're having a moment where the average person is actually paying attention to some of these things. And that's the time to really seize upon the actions necessary to make the change happen. If only we had a parliament. If only we had a parliament. If only that we had the possibility of, I don't know,

maybe exercising our right to vote. All of those things will come one day when the government deigns us eligible, but not until they get their house in order. Robin, thank you so much for joining us. Love talking to you. Would love to do it again soon. My pleasure. Bagel? Bagel. Bagel? Bagel.

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for total fund savings adventure, maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. Expression Fentanyl Czar, get used to it, because you're gonna be hearing a lot of it. Now, we hear about border Cz, drug czars in the states, never had one up here. And so it's a new concept for Canadians. We don't know exactly how it's going to work, who it's going to be, what the qualifications of the job are going to be, what the requirements of the job are going to be. But somebody who can probably give us

some really detailed guesses is our next guest. So please welcome to the show Adam Zivow, national post columnist and executive director for the Center for Responsible Drug Policy. Adam, welcome. And tell me when you hear fentanyl czar, what do you think? I think if someone who can coordinate all the different stakeholders that are trying to tackle this addiction crisis, but currently lack a coordinating mechanism. We have to keep in mind that addiction is a very complicated issue and there are all sorts of different players involved but they all seem to be in a sense uh fighting each other and and not coordinating any significant way and I think a great example of this would be the port of Vancouver which is a major entry point

for Fentanyl precursors and has been for many years and unfortunately you know we don't have the port of Vancouver, which is a major entry point for Fentanyl precursors and has been for many years. And unfortunately, you know, we don't have many dedicated staff to actually check, you know, whether precursors or other illicit contraband is coming into the port. We have zero dedicated staff. The Canadian Border Services Agency, you know, only checks about, I think, one percent of shipments

coming in, because they're they're under resourced. And so they try to, for example, offload some of this work to the RCMP. But the RCMP says they they don't have resources. So I think a boarded SAR would be someone who could come into this kind of, you know, scenario and say, Okay, we have these different agencies, they're not working well together. How can we find synergies and how can we allocate more funding to make sure that this broken system finally works? So we have to make sure, though, that this is not a symbolic gesture that like this that this office has teeth. Do you think that means that, you know, like a czar operates, traditionally operates in the,

in the American system of, of government, we would have to find a way to create that a meaningful analog here in Canada. Do you think that means elevating it to a ministerial position, cabinet position? Well, I think creating a new ministry in these circumstances might be impractical, especially considering that we're walking into an election. We have enough chaos already. I don't know Formally what offense notes are would look like What I do know is that it would be good to get someone from a law enforcement background Because although addiction is seen as a public health issue by some well by many The public health experts who have been tackling the addiction and overdose crisis for the past 10, 20 years have proven remarkably ineffective at all of this.

And in fact, many of those experts have advocated for drug decriminalization and for giving out fentanyl, right? Yeah. So we have these, we have law enforcement and public health on the other, you know, two different sides of this issue. And one side says we should make it easier To get fentanyl we should give it out for free and law enforcement size It's side says that this does that we need to actually, you know curtail all of this So I know which side I think we should pull from if we're gonna create this new office. All right, let's move on to

something that Pierre poliev Tweeted just a few hours ago. He said, Pierre Poliev will impose life sentences for fentanyl kingpins. Overdoses have killed 49,000 Canadians under liberal open borders and soft on crime laws. Fentanyl traffickers are mass murderers. Lock them up and throw away the key. I think a lot of people will connect with this emotionally, but from a practical standpoint, there are a lot of hurdles to get from here to there.

Well, I think one of the main hurdles here is establishing causality, right? So how do you get from point A, which is someone selling fentanyl wholesale, to point B, which is someone dying of a fentanyl overdose, right? If you're gonna jail someone for manslaughter or murder, it's going to be really difficult to prove something like this conclusively. This is why I think it's actually better to charge the street-level dealers

Because there it's much easier to say that you know the fentanyl that this person used came from this source and it's what killed them And in fact, there's actually been a conversation Since the mid to late 2010s about whether fentanyl dealers should be charged with manslaughter. And that debate is still up in the air. And from my understanding, there have been a few cases where manslaughter charges have stuck. I believe there might have been one in Sarnia, but I'd have to double check. But the problem is that at that time, some of the sort of bleeding heart voices in the addiction conversation said that, no, no, no, you can't charge street level dealers with manslaughter because they themselves are addicted to drugs.

And I think that's ridiculous. You know, I don't think that having an addiction gives you license to kill other addicts by selling them poison. And I think that until we start treating street level dealers as essentially murderers, we are reinforcing this idea that people's lives don't matter just because they're addicts. If someone has been killed by fentanyl, they had just as much of a right to live as someone who has been killed by a gun.

The question of how big fentanyl is as a problem is, I mean, it's open to interpretation. It depends on how you define the problem. And some people are pointing to, you know, 0.2% of all the fentanyl going into the States is coming from Canada. Therefore, it is not a problem. However, the flip side to that is a conversation, I believe it was in committee on Parliament Hill on December 12th, with the RCMP. And they were talking about how big the fentanyl criminal infrastructure is in Canada. How many to the RCMP, how many people do you estimate are involved in the production and distribution of fentanyl in Canada?

Do you have like a ballpark estimate? Is it a thousand people? Is it 10,000 people? estimate? Is it a thousand people? Is it 10,000 people? I don't have a ballpark figure on it. So you have no idea how many people could possibly be involved in the fentanyl trade in Canada? There's a significant group, a significant number of organized crime group, but if you're asking for a specific number, I can't give you a specific number. How many organized crime groups are involved? Over 4,000 organized crime groups in Canada as assessed by the Criminal Intelligence Service Canada. 4,000 individual organized crime groups all with their own distinct leadership and membership?

That's correct. Okay, that's chilling, Adam. That's chilling to think that we've allowed that many groups to pop up in Canada and they seem to be operating with impunity? I would agree to a certain extent, but I also think that looking at absolute numbers is not that helpful, considering that we're a country of 40 million people. And the way

that I want to think about this and the way I think that people should think about this is to think of Canada as an emerging fencel producer. So we're not a problem internationally just yet, but we're getting there. So essentially our domestic fentanyl production was very low up until China stopped exporting fentanyl in the late 2010s. And they stopped exporting fentanyl in response to American pressure.

So suddenly you had all of these opioid addicts in Canada that couldn't get access to fentanyl and that actually created an opportunity For organized gangs in Canada to start producing fence toll themselves. And then of course the pandemic, you know exacerbated that because global supply chains were disrupted so Canada became a national and international exporter of fentanyl starting from a few years ago and we're still very small, but the amount of fentanyl that we're exporting is growing exponentially. So it's good that we're trying to nip this in the bud

before it becomes too bad. Now, of course, you know, the amount of fentanyl that we're sending over to the United States is not that significant, only 0.2% compared to what Mexico is sending over. But I think that the bigger risk that we pose globally is actually exporting our fentanyl to Southeast asia specifically to australia new zealand. Because there they don't really have robust and small market so it's a new drug and it's quite expensive so games can make a lot of money from selling their.

Versus when you sell to the united states because so much fence is already coming in from Mexico, fentanyl is not it doesn't command that high of a price. So the profit incentive is not as strong because you're not making as much money per unit sold. It's it's I'm happy to hear when I when I come at you a doom and gloom, I'm happy that you temper that negativity with a with a little bit a dose of reality. But that I wonder if we even have the manpower and the boots on the ground to attack this problem to nip it in the bud, as you said. Well, I think the problem here is that Trump has actually been counterproductive because

he's given so much of a focus on on the border. And I don't think that the border is the real issue here. I think the problem is that we have a lack of enforcements within our cities that have allowed these superlative labs to proliferate and flood our country with fentanyl and produce enough fentanyl that we can ship it, you know, via the port of Vancouver to Southeast Asia. I think that's a real problem. And I think that rather than focusing on sending 10,000 people to the US, the merits to the Canadian US border, we should be focusing on criminal justice reform, we should be focusing on we're gonna have to leave it there, my friend. But thank you so much. Danielle Smith of Alberta was recently interviewed, and she

took a critical look at Canada's position, Canada's relationship, and the role Canada has played during these vital negotiations over the trade the trade tariffs by Donald Trump. Let's have a listen. I think that there's two conversations we're having with the US administration. One conversation is the tariffs related to fentanyl. And the second conversation is all of the irritations that the administration has with the CUSMA agreement.

And I don't think we should intermingle those two. I think we've got to address the fentanyl issue to avoid the 25% tariffs. And then the second stage is having an election so we can have a government, and we can spend four years renegotiating the CUSMA. I think if we try to intermingle those two, then we're not gonna satisfy the concerns around fentanyl.

So I'd like to stay focused on fentanyl, make some progress in the next 30 days, and then hope we can move on to the next stage when we've got a new elected government at the federal level. Yeah, she's saying stop making excuses. And you know, I have been quite positive, quite bullish on Danielle Smith, especially in the lead up to these negotiations. She was the one who called it with that we needed a border czar. And yet there are

people who, unless you lined up behind Team Trudeau the second he said do so, you were tarred and feathered in the public square. I have been called all manner of sin on social media. I've been called routinely on a daily basis a traitor. Traitor. I'm a traitor because I've been consistent in my criticism of this country, or rather the direction of this country. I have, Because I haven't wanted to tear down our statues, because I have, I mean, it's situational hypocrisy to denigrate this country's history and then wrap yourself in the flag when it's politically expedient.

These people who have been saying that we have no core identity are now wrapping themselves in the flag because it might help them not get wiped out in the next election. And because I have pointed that out, because I have said, you know what, I don't necessarily trust this team.

I don't trust their motivation or I don't necessarily trust their ability to get anything done, especially because they've demonstrated that they haven't believed in those things for nine years. That makes me a traitor. I'm sorry. I don't have a knee-jerk reaction to Donald Trump.

I'm sorry that my definition of being Canadian isn't as simple as our prime ministers, which is that we're not American. So I, you know, I gotta say I would not have, I will not go with the crowd. I'm not going to boo the American anthem. That doesn't make me a traitor. It just means I know what it means to be Canadian and it does. And my pride doesn't go up and down depending on whether or not Donald Trump likes us or not. I do not define my patriotism in the negative because to be Canadian isn't just to not be American because we're also not French or British

or South African or Chinese. There's an entire personality around how I view or what it means to be Canadian. And to simplify it means you don't understand it. Which means those people calling me a traitor, you don't know what that means, because you don't know what it actually means to be proud of this country. I'm not proud of the country because I'm angry at America. I'm not proud of the country, because somebody on the outside said something mean. Pride in this country goes back to the day it was born.

Pride in this country has to do with the sacrifices that we've made to build the country, to make this a welcoming place for immigrants, to make it a welcoming place for business. Means being proud of the military that we built that allowed us to fight in two world wars. We have a history stained in blood that people like to forget. I don't forget that.

And so you can call me a traitor all you want. I simply have a different attitude as what it means to be Canadian and what it means to be Canadian in this moment. We love, our government loves standing in front of a big check that nobody can cash Saying that we're gonna build X Y & Z and never doing it, but that's alright because we got our sound bite So yeah, I'm skeptical of the people in office right now to do what they say That does not make me a traitor that makes me a realist that makes me somebody with eyes and ears and a brain to decipher

the BS from what is real So come at me online all you want. This microphone won't get turned off. Mark Carney wants to be our prime minister. And he was asked a pretty basic question. Here's how he answered it before scurrying away. Would you recall parliament if you win in order to handle this? Well, look, don't make a decision before you have to and progress is being made. You will have, of course, and

I will watch on CTV to get the outcome of the Prime Minister's call with the President. And we'll see what progress is made both in that and then in subsequent and then decision will be made. What? Look, you can say what you will about Pierpullio if you could love him or hate him, but he answers questions. He answers questions. One of the most frustrating things as somebody who follows politics and actually very much enjoys question period over the past

nine years is I don't believe that the federal government has ever answered a direct question from the opposition. For any opposition question, they are never answered. They always pivot back to talking points. And this was even worse than that because there were no talking points. And this was even worse than that, because there were no talking points. This was word salad, word salad, world salad. Let me get on the elevator. Is a man who has not. He doesn't do Canadian press.

I've seen him be interviewed on American TV shows and American comedy shows. Doesn't do a lot of Canadian press. Not elected, unaccountable, unelected. He's, and here he was asked a very direct question from a Canadian news outlet, and we couldn't even get a direct answer from him. So it's no bueno, it's no bueno. Donald Trump is, yeah, he's a busy man.

He's a busy man. He's a busy man. And he's been inviting the press into the Oval Office in a way that I don't think is standard. And he was asked about what would happen if another country tried to take you out. It's Iran and their proxies who have threatened to retaliate against you and your team you out. obliterated, that'd be the end. I've left instructions. If they do it, they get obliterated. There won't be anything left.

And they shouldn't be able to do it. And Biden should have said that, but he never did. I don't know why, lack of intelligence, perhaps. Look, I don't believe a lot of the stuff that comes out of Donald Trump's mouth. I think sometimes he's blue sky and some stuff. I do believe him in this case. I think if they tried to take him out,

that would be the end of Iran as we know it. Canada's back in the news on Jon Stewart. And in this case, you know what? I kinda like what Jon Stewart is saying here. We're picking a fight with our most reliable and pleasant friend, the Labradoodle of Allies? But I guess that's chump tough. You know what I mean?

You got to walk into the prison yard, walk right up to the one guy who really doesn't seem to be a problem at all, and just, yeah! Take that, best friend, who has willingly signed up to fight in every ridiculous war we've ever gotten into. Let that be a lesson to the rest of the world. We are a terrible friend. I mean, he's 70% right.

He's 70% right. You got to throw some Danielle Smith in there to inform it, to get him up to 100%. But by and large, I think most Canadians feel that he's on... He's kind of right there. Daniel Blanchard is no ordinary thief. His heists are ingenious. His escapes defy belief. And when he sees the dazzling diamond CC star,

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