The Ben Mulroney Show - Canada Post is losing the patience of its customers

Episode Date: September 29, 2025

GUEST:    DAN KELLY CFIB Guest: Tony Chapman, Host of the award winning podcast Chatter that Matters, Founding Partner of Chatter AI GUEST:   NOREEN LABELLE/ 60s scoop survivor If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Twitter: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ TikTok: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by the National Payroll Institute, the leader for the payroll profession in Canada, setting the standard of professional excellence, delivering critical expertise, and providing resources that over 45,000 payroll professionals rely on. Hey, thanks, son. What do I owe you? Don't worry about it. It's payday. Payday, huh? I bet you it went straight into your bank account and you didn't even check your pay stuff. My what? Your pay stuff. Back in my day, you had to wait for a physical check. Then you had to go to the bank. Deposit it, and wait for it to clear.

Your pay really meant something. Payroll is incredibly complex. It's art and the science. It literally keeps the economy moving. Payroll professionals do a lot for us. You know, it's about time we do something for them. How about we ask our leaders to name a day in their honor, a national day to recognize payroll professionals?

I got it. This is perfect. Why don't we explain to people just how important the roles are professionals play in our lives. We can even ask them to sign a petition. We can even ask them to sign a petition to recognize the third Tuesday in September as the National Day to recognize payroll professionals. We'll rally support and bring the payroll party to the nation. National payroll party? Precisely. Sounds like a plan, you know, just one thing. What's that? I'm choosing the music. What? And I'm sitting in the backseat. The whole way?

When you're with Annex Plathom, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thank you so much for spending a little bit of your Monday with us.

We have made it through the weekend. I hope everybody had a lovely weekend. You know, I started binge watching again over the weekend? I started watching Silicon Valley. That show holds up. You never watched it. It's on Crave. I've seen clips from it.

I think it's hilarious. All six seasons are there. You start watching that, you can't stop. It's really funny. Very, very funny. But sometimes I like to turn my brain off on the weekends. because we deal with a lot of important stuff on the weekdays. And sure enough, the weekend did not disappoint.

We are right back into the thick of it with issues that matter to each and every one of us. At the end of last week, one of our preoccupations was the tone, tenor, and subject matter being brought up by the interim head of the parliamentary budget office, Jason Jacques, where he was speaking of an untenable situation in our public finance. And then we're going to get to the point very, very soon. Actually, he said we're at the point now where we need to change course. If we do not change course, then what follows will be nothing short of a national disaster. And we're going to get to how the prime minister should deal with that in a moment. But Roman Babber, who is a conservative MP in the greater Toronto area, tweeted after a long summer break, The House of Commons convened for the fall session on Monday, September 15th, 2025.

Since then, out of 10 sitting days, Mark Carney attended question period three times. And look, I'm not somebody who looks at that and says, I look at that and say, so what? Honestly, I say so what. The Prime Minister needs to be in places besides the House of Commons. He's got his front bench that can answer a great many questions. He has already stated that he is going to be a very very important. very busy trying to build out new relationships and new partnerships for Canada beyond our vital U.S.-Canada relationship.

So I look at that and I say, so what? However, so long as this does not become the rule that travel and photo ops becomes what he's known for, so long as what he's doing yields results, I say keep going. But that part that I just said is vital. You know, the performance of going on the road is only as valuable as the results that those meetings yield. And so I take Roman Babber at his, he's a good man, he's an honorable man. Let's just wait and see if what he's doing yields results. I'm not going to complain that the prime minister travels.

We live in an interconnected world. So that's a, that's a tempest in a teapot as far as I'm concerned for now, for now. If we, two, three months from now, if the prime minister has nothing to show for his travels except for a massive carbon footprint, then that we will have a discussion on those matters. Back to Jason Jacques, after he made his comments in committee meetings last week, I thought one of two things was going to happen. I thought he was going to choose his words more judiciously. In other words, did he get pushed back? Was he told he was being unhelpful? Or was he going to double down?

And it looks like he doubled down. So on the CBC, late last week, early this weekend, this is what he had to say about whether or not these issues are an issue of these issues that we are facing. Are they caused by Donald Trump or by Canadian policies? I think it's kind of a little bit from column A and a little bit from column B. So there definitely is an impact in comparison to our previous forecast. You can definitely see the impact on the overall growth for the Canadian economy. Larger part of it is the government policy decisions.

So there ends up being about $115 billion in net new costs since the last time we've prepared a forecast back immediately prior to the election in March 2025. And a good part of that is attributable to defense. but yeah certainly a little bit of both but certainly at this point it's more on the government yeah uh i i think that's fair i think that's fair you know and that didn't even sound like a a political thing i think that's that's somebody who's focused entirely on ones and zeros on a balance sheet now if you wanted the more political take on that you would have gone to someone like pier pauliev who during the election campaign said as much he said look the problems that

we're dealing with far predate Donald Trump, the issues of housing affordability, the issues of infrastructure, the issues with our military. None of those have anything to do with Donald Trump, our competitive imbalance, our lack of productivity, none of that had anything to do with Donald Trump. And, you know, he put that in the window during the election campaign and he came up short. So as far as I'm concerned, the election's been prosecuted. And now it's about our opposition parties coming up with a new value proposition, an alternative value proposition to this government when we ultimately go back to the polls. Now, that being said, he had an event in the GTA over the weekend and a good friend of mine who does his morning show here at 640, Toronto.

Greg Brady. He had shoulder surgery. He had shoulder surgery on Friday. And over the weekend, found himself at one of these rallies and interviewed Pierre Poliyev himself. So what he was doing out of bed, I do not know, but I commend him for doing so. Let's listen to a little bit of Poliyev talking to Greg Brady about what Jason Jacques warned us about. Jason Jock is the parliamentary budget officer. I know when you hear the title, you probably want to follow sleep. And normally when a parliamentary budget officer talks, it's a good treatment for insomnia. They'd knock you right, it's so boring. This guy wasn't boring. He was speaking plain English. He said he was stupefied

by the Carney deficit, that it was, quote, unsustainable, that we were in big trouble, and that he said, if we keep going in this direction, something will break. That's quote, something will break, and it will be the bank. Yeah. I don't

think there's anything political about that. I don't think there's anything mean spirit. I don't think there's anything no. If Pierre Poliyev says that and you hear, oh, you're rooting against Canada. No, no, no, no, no. You're the one being unhelpful if you don't heed

the warning, right? Like, it's the, if the banker, if the, you know, we've been told to trust Mark Carney because of his depth of knowledge, then what is the head of the PBO except an expert in his field? If you're going to trust Mark Carney, then

surely you have the same amount of trust for somebody who finds himself as the interim head of the PBO right like you can't have one without the other what's good for the goose is good for the gander and like I said we have a lot of issues in this country that predate Donald Trump and we have to take a good hard look in the mirror and ask ourselves have we are are we behaving as a country that is staring down the barrel of of an iceberg that is coming at us. Like, we either have an emergency or we don't. And let's just look at AI, for example.

Let's look at the opportunity that is before us being a leader in AI in this country. Dalhousie University has a job opening for a Tier 2 Canada Research Chair in Artificial Intelligence and Healthy Aging, right we need to marshal the very best we need to find the very best to populate the leadership ranks of AI in this country or run the risk of falling behind every country in the world is doing their best to grab their piece of the pie and so when I read that as part of this

the position details for this Canada research chair in artificial intelligence And the faculty of community science, it says that this position is designated to candidates who self-identify as women with a disability or gender equity seeking persons with a disability. I hear that we are unserious about being leaders. There's no other way to say it when you are when you are prioritizing the performative nature of putting somebody who looks a certain way at the top over finally. the best, the absolute best for the position, we are destined to lose.

We are destined to lose. We need to cast off the Justin Trudeau era of performance immediately, jettison it to the dustbin of history. And we have to start taking ourselves seriously. Or we will lose. As sure as my name is Ben Mulrooning, we will lose. I can't say it more clearly than that. all right

we'll be back oh I missed all that other stuff does Canada Post and the union representing its workers see the bigger picture because why they quibble over contracts their customers are running for the hills

a company is not viable any organization not viable if it has cost $5 billion over the course of the last decade, if it's losing $10 million a day, which is what Canada Post currently is doing. So some significant changes are needed to be made. This is the Ben Mulroney Show.

That was the voice of our Prime Minister giving his take on the lay of the land with the Canada Post workers hitting the picket line. More than 50,000 postal workers are on strike after Ottawa announced major changes, including ending door-to-door delivery and shutting down some rural. post offices. Small businesses are taking a major hit. Payment, invoices, contracts stuck in the mail, freezing cash flow, leaving companies scrambling to find alternatives. And some say they could lose hundreds of thousands of dollars if this strike drags on. To discuss this, we are joined by Dan Kelly, the head of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. Dan, welcome back to the show. Good to be with you, Ben. Do you have a sense, Dan, of how many businesses in this country depend

on Canada Post? Yeah, our studies show that about two-thirds of Canadian small businesses still have some degree of dependence on Canada Post. Now, of course, every strike that happens, fewer and fewer, more of them shift away from Canada Post, never to return. But it is still a pretty big player. We use it for delivery, moving money. Small businesses often pay each other through paper check in the mail when they're moving

$20,000, $50,000. And third for ad mail and flyers, things like that. So those are three big things that small businesses are struggling with now that the strike has begun. Well, we should let our listeners know. And we'll let you, Dan, know that tomorrow on our show, we have two CEOs of two private companies that are fed up with this, the inconsistency of mail delivery. And they are coming up with their own alternative. They're going to break it down for us tomorrow. tomorrow at 10.30. So during our 10 o'clock hour, and they're going to break down exactly

the service that they want to offer to small and medium-sized business and why they've had enough. But I have to assume that more and more small businesses are going with alternatives because, you know, this public venue through the Canada Post is just not reliable enough? No, you're 100% right. And we saw that during the last postal strike. 15% of our members, small business owners, moved away from Canada Post permanently during the last postal strike. I remember visiting the Toronto Toy Store in the lead up to Christmas last year, who said she had used Canada Post forever and that she really wasn't sure if there was a good private sector alternative, but found one and is not returning. But I've got to tell you,

That is a challenge for some because Canada Post eat for private couriers. Canada Post is still the final agent to deliver goods in lots of parts of Canada. Small towns, rural remote communities, they're the only game in town. And so, look, this is still an important public service. But the thing is that it needs to be, you know, and this is where I'm entirely behind where the government is finally going, this needs massive reform. We don't need daily mail delivery any longer. But what we do need is a company that can get goods to every market across the entire country and do so at low cost.

Well, the problem is I see it, though, Dan, is that if more and more small businesses are taking matters into their own hands and they are finding workarounds and they are finding solutions that are brought to market through the private sector, rather, then by the time Canada Post and their workers get their actions, together they're going to come back to a world where the pie that they thought the pie that was already shrinking is even smaller look you're you're 100% right and Canada Post data shows this they have lost there they before the pandemic 2019 Canada Post was the largest package delivery service in the entire country now I think it's less than 20% of the market yeah so they have they have been shrinking and a huge part of that is businesses can't afford to deal with suppliers that are out for big tracks of time at any given point. And this is why the union is so foolish in its behavior right now.

And look, Cub W is the most militant of any public sector union. They operate on a different planet than reality. And I got to tell you, while I love my mail carrier, the union is doing its workers such incredible disservice by getting them out on this action at a time when, Canadians are not, what the minister himself said, the average Canadian receives two pieces of mail a week, a week. Yeah. And so are we prepared to pay more than 100 grand per person to deliver those two pieces of mail a week?

I think Canadians have had enough. Well, I've got to give credit where credit is due. Andrew Coyne, who I don't agree with all the time, who found himself on the CBC over the weekend, made an analogy talking about Cup W. and Canada Post, he said, it's like two bald men fighting over a comb. And he said, the workers tend to believe that the purpose of Canada Post is to give them stuff forever. And Canada Post feels that the workers are there to help them keep providing a service at a higher and higher cost, which is sort of the essential to the ethos of any monopoly. And he says, and then you've got a government that more or less agrees with both of them. and that is a recipe for disaster.

Look, this has been going on forever. We have to flip back, I'll flip you back to 2015. The Conservatives, when the Harper government left office, had put in place all of these reforms that were announced finally by the Carney government just last week. All of those things were actually set to go into place starting to be implemented, and then Trudeau canceled every single one of the reforms. Which makes no say, I mean, if he thinks, he won the election over a promise to restore door-to-door mail, like if he thinks that's the

only reason, then he's kidding himself. But the hard work, the heavy lift, the political price was already paid by Stephen Harper, already paid by Stephen Harper. So for him to go back on it, the upside for him was negligible. But even so, Dan, what I don't get is Justin Trudeau had 10 years, 10 years to watch this slide, not into irrelevance, but into the massive, the massive red that they found themselves in. And nothing was done. Nothing was done. Had those changes been allowed to take root, then was something else that probably would have taken root was a belief in innovation and a belief that a radical departure from their old practices was not only acceptable but necessary. Instead, this culture of

entitlement and this culture of slow-moving change has not changed in years. Who knows what Canada Post would look like today had those changes been implemented back then? Ben, every single independent review that the Trudeau government started since then has said the exact same thing. The company is effectively bankrupt. The prime minister himself said that just yesterday. The company is effectively bankrupt. The only reason it exists today is because it's attached to the federal government and cannot fail. But we are going to have to as taxpayers shovel more money into this at the same time that we need to find more money for defense. We need to find more money for health care. We need to find more money for a thousand other critical

public purposes, including some tax relief for us beleaguered Canadians. And yet this is where, unfortunately, a decade of inaction has taken us. This didn't need to happen. And look, we small businesses is our believers in Canada Post. We want it to continue. It needs to be reformed in a different way, but it needs the flexibility. And that's what the government has finally agreed to. And I give the Carney government credit for moving on this. But my gosh, the decade that we lost has created this massive problem.

Well, let's, I only have a minute left. So I need to get you on the record very quick on this. Listen, it's really wonderful that a lot of small businesses are trying to find their own solutions in the private sector. But that's not going to be a reality. for everybody. If this strike drags on, I have to assume that caught in its wake will be a lot of small businesses. Do you guys have any numbers on that? How long can this go on before we start losing entrepreneurs? Well, look, I think you're right. There will be many that will shift away,

but I've spoken to tons that are, their whole business model is around Canada Post. And there are thousands and thousands of businesses that are in jeopardy, especially as we move to the holiday season. My goodness, like last year it was such a disaster because even private couriers maxed out on capacity. And you believe in the private sector as I do, but the private sector isn't ready today to take over the role of Canada post in every market across the country. All right. We've got to leave it there, Dan. Thank you very much. Anytime Ben. Up next, does a Canadian tire slash Tim Horton's loyalty program partnership makes sense? We'll top up your double-double with the answer.

Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. I love it when we have a chance to speak with our next guest because we get a really interesting fresh take on stories that, you know, you've probably read already. So let's dive right in with our good friend with the most creative brain of anybody we talk to on this show. Tony Chapman, the host of the award-winning podcast, Chatter That Matters, and founding partner of Chatter A.I. Tony, welcome. Happy Monday to you. Okay. Explain. to me, the partnership brewing, if you will, see what I did there, between Canadian Tire and Tim Hortons.

Well, it's really smart. The loyalty war is on, and each loyalty platform wants you obviously to use their card. But what's happened, Ben, is that now with things like Apple Pay and Google Pay, you tend to default to one card, the card you have on your mobile phone. Yeah. If you're losing some identity with the brand, so what they're trying to do is solidify their position so that they have. first mover advantage.

That's why they're trying to combine it. Because what Canadian Tire is a great place to shop once a month, maybe a couple of times a month, but they have a huge customer base. And you have Tim Hortons, which is a place you shop almost every day. So bringing the two of them together, in theory,

what they're saying is it's the best of both worlds for the consumer. So everywhere you go, you're getting points. And obviously it's the best world for them, because everywhere you go, they're getting data, that data they can end use to continue to convince you to buy and visit more often.

So it's really this circle economy attached to a loyalty card, and they're competing against Avion, scene, PC, and optimum. And the last thing you want to be is number three or four in that battle with tighties. Listen, years ago, I realized that the reason that we are put on this earth, why we are here, our raison d'etre, is to collect aero plan points. That's why we're here. that's why God put us here and that's what I believe

my purpose is to get as many of those points as possible and yeah and I guess for other people it's scene points I have I love I love going to the movies I love going to the movies but you're never going to convince me

to get a credit card that allows me to collect points to buy popcorn well it's interesting because you're just defined their two audiences someone like you that has a little bit more money has the advantage of collecting enough points and having a travel or trip ahead of you in mind

is really aspirational. You know, if we keep using that card, the family's going to go away. People with little lesbians, especially young people, I helped launch the scene card was all about immediate gratification. If I just use my debit card and credit card

by the end of the month, I can go to a movie for free. So the same carrot, the difference is your carrot was further out and had wings on it and some sand attached to it where their carrot was the movie. Oh, don't get me.

That's really what. Don't get me wrong. I collect my scene points. I collect them absolutely. And I love that moment where they tell me that I can get all my tickets for free one day. Me and the kids, we feel like we've won the lottery. We love it. It's the popcorn I'm after because, you know, the movie prices is quite as daunting as when you,

when you order the cola and the popcorn and you realize you have to mortgage your house for the kids. But yeah, no, that's what loyalty is, but it ultimately comes down to your data. Yeah. What I also like about Tim Hortons and Canadian tires, they can also cross merchandise. So in other words, in Tim, the Tim Horton's merchandise that we talked about that they're bringing out can actually get sold at Canadian Tire. So they continue to build this partnership. They're saying to Canadians, this is a great Canadian enterprise you're attached to. And everywhere you're turned, we can make it all things Tim and all things Canadian Tire.

Okay. So I'm looking at the Tim shop, right, online here. I'm looking at the stuff that they sell. And right off the top, like they are selling Halloween branded coffee mugs and, you know, I guess they're equivalent of those big cups that women tend to drink out of. And they've got sweatshirts that seem to be harkening back to an older time.

They're going with some retro stuff here. Yeah, the retro. I'm looking at it right now. There's one here with the old school logo and it's very small, but the sweatshirt looks great. I mean, a lot of the stuff looks kind of nice. They've got one for dogs. They've got one for puppies here.

This is, so what do you think of this stuff? Because I think when people thought it would be, you know, when we were talking about last week, it's like you're essentially being, you are paying to be an ad for Tim Hortons. But some of this stuff definitely appeals to that, that, that, that, the old, the old timey Tim's that we all remember. Exactly right. Very retro, beautiful use of the color red, which is a color, Canadians are very attached to all of a sudden because we want to show our colors.

And I think it's perfect timing. coming out with everything that's going on in the States to show your colors, to wear that color of red. And I think that, you know, rather than just a brand manager being given this task of putting up some merchandise and going to some premium person, there's no question they got a really strong fashion designer involved. Got a very Joe Mimran club monoco feel to it. And it's got an edge to it. And I tell you something, if somebody put one of those hoodies under my, I would wear it. Yeah. Because it's, it's a sharp looking hoodie. And it also says, hey, guess what? You you know what? Now, here's where they made a mistake.

Guess where that product is manufactured? Vietnam. Yeah. I mean, they should be making all of that through companies like Redwood on Suspinina, all made in Canada, say, hey, look, it's a couple bucks more than we might have paid, but we're supporting Canadian workers. That's the only pushback. So how much more would it be? Because I'm looking at the retro logo unisex hoodie, and it's coming in at 60 bucks.

And they also have sweatpants as well with a tiny, little logo too. I mean, Jesus, I'm really impressed by this. Okay. So if it were, if we're manufactured in Toronto, for example, how much would that 50, 5999 hoodie be? Well, you take away shipping, you take away everything else. It's probably another, maybe another five or 10 bucks. Well, I was doing work with Pepsi. We're bringing in shirts for Pepsi stuff from China that were beautiful, Reebok branded shirts for like five bucks. Yeah. That would have cost is 15. But I don't, I doubt it's a two for one anymore, especially with the low orders they'd be getting. You know, China is all about million plus orders.

So I think they could have done it. You know, I think it's just a question of finding the supplier they can trust and bring it in. But I think if they did, it would make another statement that this is all about Canada. Yeah. And that's sometimes dotting the eyes and crossing the T's. Yeah. You might have sold a few puties less, but the PR you would have got it would have been worth

millions more. Yeah. And I got to think that especially today where like maybe 10 years ago, it wouldn't have mattered. You could have leaned into this retro thing and people would have loved it as much as they are going to today. But the problem is you're, we're living in this by Canadian time where for a lot of people, it's just, it's just another one of those performative. They'll view it as something performative. Like you're just trying to leverage my good feelings about the old, old timey days. And, but you're doing nothing to actually help us. Especially when your orchestra's Canadian

Tyre and Tim Hortons, and you're playing, oh, Canada, time and time again to us and reminding us every day that your Canadian companies deserve our support, then show that by also other Canadian suppliers deserving your support. The same reason I'd want to walk in a Canadian tire and see the end aisle display saying, here's products manufactured in Canada. I'm not going to, yeah, that being said, I'm not going to lie, man. I'm really liking this this unisex hoodie with a tiny little old one. And they've got this little black. Is this a blatant hint for me for your holiday presence? I'm telling you, I love this thing. I think they've done a great job with it. And you know what, I may, I may get one.

Hey, we don't have a lot of time left. But question for you, how do the Blue Jays best capitalize on getting back to the postseason? Well, I think the Blue Jays already do that. And you're going to see that through their, you know, marketing their product next year earlier. What I'd love to know is how does the city of Toronto that needs a breath of fresh air, do they have a campaign ready now that they're bringing out to border states and saying, hey, come up and watch the Blue Jays. Yeah.

I'm experienced Toronto again. Take advantage of the fact of a winning team is. magnetic and use that magnetic properties to start drawing attention to Toronto. That's what I would be focused. That's a very good point. I hadn't thought of that. You know, we're always thinking that fans in Toronto go south to Buffalo to go to a football game, but getting that Buffalo crowd up here for a baseball game.

I mean, we may do it. For all I know, we already do it. But I do believe, like, this is one of the most unifying things that we've got in the city right now in a city. that is exceptionally divided and ever more siloed from each other to find to find that one thing that can bring us all together if only superficially and if only for the playoffs. I'll take it. Absolutely.

And get a commercial out for Toronto on the networks in the states to remind people this is a great city to visit. I mean, you're going to have millions of fans watching in. Take advantage of it. Tony Chapman, as always, I appreciate it. You bad. Have a great day. All right.

Now, question for everybody, what is Truth and Reconciliation Day about this year? We're going to put it into perspective next. Don't go anywhere. This is the Ben Mulroney show from coast to coast to coast on the chorus radio network. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show, and we are on the eve of National Day for Truth and Reconciliation, which came to in 2021. So it's a relatively new day of remembrance. And so a lot of people will be forgiven if in their busy lives, they have not found space for it yet. And so in an effort to bring more people on board, that's what we're going to be talking about right now. And just a little

while ago we were so very lucky to have on the show a 60s scoop survivor who shared her her personal story that was one that stayed with me and will stay with me for a while for a number of reasons and not the least of which was how imbued her perspective was with hope and optimism for the future and so please welcome back to the ben mulrooney show noreen labell noreen welcome and thank you so much for joining us again Hi, Ben. It's good to hear from you and good to be back. So on this eve of Truth and Reconciliation Day, orange shirt day, and I know my kids inside the TDSB have been participating in it since its inception.

So my hope is that they will take it as seriously as it needs to be taken moving forward. And I think that's always the goal, sort of for me, that's always the goal. It's a recognition of, you know, it's not necessarily going to find purchase in the lives of older Canadians, but it is a generational play, right? It's something that we hope the kids take. And it's the same with the change in the national anthem, right? Not everybody has, everyone's got their own version,

but you're hoping that the next generation, the youngest generation, takes that new one as their own and carries it forward. So what do you tell older Canadians, for whom this is something that they, as I said, haven't made space for in their own lives? What do you tell them about what they should be doing tomorrow? Well, you know, Ben, a lot of the older folks are just as much as the younger ones.

We're not even taught about this. We're not even aware. I went on the weekend, I had an engagement to speak and share my story. And so many of the older folks came up and tears in their eyes, they had no idea this had even happened. So, you know, we're educating younger, but we're also educating the older ones. And it's just something that the world forgot and just swept under the carpet. And now that it's coming into light, I mean, it's beautiful to see, but it's heartbreaking also as I share my story. But it encourages me to see how people react to it, to react to my story, to learn the truth.

And to, you know, they come up crying to me. And they're so apologetic, even though, you know, they might not have had a hand in it. They just, they're sorry that this is the way that our beautiful Aboriginal people were treated. And, you know, there's nothing that they can do to make up for it, but just having their sincerity, their hugs, and I feel their love, you know, asking for forgiveness. You know, it's a beautiful thing. And like I told you the last time, it's all about for me being better, not bitter. And this is what I try to, the most important thing when I speak,

that I try and get that across. And it's part of the reconciliation and part of the healing journey. So it really is a beautiful thing for me in spite of the trauma and the different things that I went through. There are so many different levels of participation, so many different stakeholders

that I think we have to bring on board in order to achieve some measurable level of national reconciliation. I think the truth part, is coming out right and and and and and and that the the sharing of stories and and look yeah there are debates out there as to you know we are having real honest conversations sometimes they are hurtful sometimes they're they're tough to have on on either side right and unfortunately there are there are still sides to this and hopefully one day we're going to get to a point where we're all

on the same side um but the that would be great yeah the truth part is is i think the easy part the reconciliation is hard because what does that look like? I know that there are the 94 calls to action. Yes, I was just going to say that there are 94 calls to action, and I think there's 13 or 15 that have been completed, so there's still a long ways to go. Yeah. You know, there's been so many promises that have been made,

and we're still waiting, you know, and it can take many, many years. I mean, it took many years to bring this into light, right? Yeah. So I think, you know, going forward, as long as, you know, government and all the people that have promised these things, as long as it keeps moving forward, but I think they need to move quicker, you know, because it's been a few years now.

And out of 94 calls to action, only 13 or 15 have been completed. So, you know, the missing and murdered indigenous women, that's really one out in the forefront. And it's really... How about just like drinking water on reserves? Yeah, drinking water as well. That's a pretty... That to me is the lowest hanging fruit. And so it must be frustrating, though, as somebody who is holding out hope and who is, you know, moving forward with optimism in her heart to see that something that should be simple, you know, getting rid of boil advisories on reserves, that has not been, that has not been achieved.

Well, no, it hasn't. They're working on it. But also for the education for the children. The addictions for our people, like, you know, people are quick to label our people as drunks and, you know, taking advantage of the systems, but they don't see behind those eyes. They don't see what has been causing all this. Like all these residential schools, they don't see the trauma that has been trickling on down to them. Like, they don't get to the heart of the matter. And, you know, they're just quick to judge and, oh, that's just another drunken Indian.

But, you know, when you get to know the person and see the trauma behind them, like, we need to set up more things for these people to get the help they need. And they're just, I mean, not just for our Aboriginal people, for anybody. Yeah. But when you know the trauma and hurt that's been set down through the generations with these residential schools, and my father was from the residential schools. And sadly, he, you know, when we were taken away, his way to cope was drink. And, you know, it just made matters worse and just trickled on down and to other addictions. And, you know, these are passed on through generationally. And I'm just so thankful that I have not had to battle these addictions.

Yeah. And, you know, just breaking these chains, these curses and trying to show my kids, my grandkids, a better way of life that, you know, we can heal. We can get strong. We can move forward. and, you know, that's a big message to put out there and a message that I try and share when I speak to. So it's all part of my being better, not bitter. Yeah, Noreen, I, you know, I've done a lot of speaking engagements in my time,

and one of them that I've done a number of times has been for this organization that brings together Aboriginal youth from all over the country to participate in a dance competition in Toronto. And in a lot of cases, a lot of these young Aboriginal kids have never left wherever they're from. And so to bring them all to a city like Toronto for a week or so and have them, you know, tour the city and meet people and just get out of whatever they know as the world that they had access to and to realize that the world is much bigger and they have access to it. You know, I spent time. Oh, yeah, that's a great thing. I have heard about that.

Yeah. And I'm spending time with them. But what you see is, is these kids on a lot of levels are like all other kids. That they, they want hope, they want opportunity, they want access to, to know what's possible. And in that way, they are all of our kids. And if we can do things like that, and so that opens my eyes. And I'm sure it would open the eyes of, you know, regular kids all over this country to me. I think the simple act of meeting people who are unlike you allows you to see them as far more like you than you otherwise would.

Oh, absolutely. I agree with that. And you're right. Every child matters, no matter what, you know, where they're from. Yeah. And, you know, just to give them a fighting chance when they already have so much stacked against them, that's a beautiful thing to do and to bring them out of their reserves or wherever they're from. And you're right. So many of them don't even have the opportunity to leave and experience anything.

Yeah. Well, that's a great thing. Well, Noreen, thank you so much for joining us. As I said, this is a long path that we as a nation are on, but it's one well worth treading together. And I hope that when we hit the next signpost on this path, I hope you'll join us again. Oh, absolutely. I'd love to, Ben. Anytime.

Thank you so much. When I found out my friend got a great deal on a wool coat from winners, I started wondering. Is every fabulous item I see from winners? Like that woman over there with the designer jeans. Are those from winners? Ooh, are those beautiful gold earrings? Did she pay full price? Or that leather tote?

Or that cashmere sweater? Or those knee-high boots? That dress, that jacket, those shoes. Is anyone paying full price for anything? Stop wondering. Start winning. Winners, find Fabulous for less.