The Ben Mulroney Show - Canadian taxpayers have doled out 1.3 BILLION to the Cowichan tribe since 2002

Episode Date: April 21, 2026

GUEST:   Mark Milke – Aristotle Foundation / "$1.3 billion in taxpayer funds to the Cowichan Tribes: Federal and provincial funding over 24 years" If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Under the hood, the available 201 turbojutor. charged horse power engine gives it a fun to drive etch. The refined Tiguan, you deserve more style. Visit vw.ca to learn more. SUVw, German engineered for all. Well, there's this general concept that with added publicity and notoriety comes added scrutiny. And most Canadians had been living their entire lives without knowing anything about

the Cowichin tribes. until a landmark case in British Columbia, last year, that BC Supreme Court ruling, recognizing their Aboriginal title over a large swath of Richmond, British Columbia, that caused all sorts of appeals, issues of title, and worry that property right holders would lose their property title to this. tribe. And so because of that, added scrutiny. Who is this tribe? What are they made up of? And also how much money has been flowing from the federal government towards this tribe of about 5,000 people. Enter the Aristotle Foundation that have a new report examining the scale and growth, as well as the per member impact of federal and provincial transfers to these tribes since 2001. Please welcome from the Aristotle Foundation, Mark Milkey. Mark, welcome. Ben, thanks for have me on. Okay, so yeah, I think I explain generally, sort of the lay of the land.

Feel free to add anything else before we dive into the report. Sure. I think what people need to know, if you're outside British Columbia, you may not know that back in the 1990s, there was a famous court case called Delgamouk, and basically it was a claim that, look, because much of British Columbia was not covered by treaties historically, unlike the rest of Canada, that therefore modern treaties need to be negotiated, It was an argument over Aboriginal title. In 1991, the trial judge said, no, Aboriginal title was extinguished during the colonial period. That went to the BC Court of Appeal, who overturned that and said, no, it wasn't.

And the Supreme Court of Canada in 1997, agreed with the Court of Appeal and said, Aboriginal title has not been negotiated. Where it doesn't exist, you have to negotiate that. That set off a near three-decade kerfuffle now over an attempt to negotiate treaties. but also court judgments and successive court judgments that sometimes just as happened, the Cowich and said, yeah, well, that's your title over there, which is, you know, to simplify it greatly where we're at. And that's the case in British Columbia. Now, what this paper does, and sorry, let me back up, there's also reasons why this matters,

because it involves private property. So, for example, in the Richmond decision that you just referenced last summer, the Cowichin decision over parts of Richmond, there's 150, pieces of private property fee simple ownership that are now potentially subject to the claim by Cowichin, the Cowichin First Nation, the Cowichin Tribes. And there were two million other pieces of fee simple property in British Columbia. And don't think for a moment that, you know, enterprising First Nations with very, you know, smart, adept, tough lawyers are not arguing exactly that, what Calichin just won on. And also there's some agreements between the federal

government and specific First Nations like the Muscoim, in some cases, handing over. chunks of territory. And the argument from, you know, the opposition, I think you put it that way, or those to say this is no big deal, it's like, look, these agreements and these court judgments are not yet impacting private property, or we have no intention of taking your private property. If we've learned anything in the last three decades, it's that the words of politicians promise and the words in agreements and the words in court judgments matter and they're built upon.

And that's what's been happening. And if it have two million other properties in BC that are fee simple, in addition to those in Richmond. And Richmond, by the way, for those of our listeners who don't know where it is, that's where the Vancouver Airport is located on. It wasn't part of this claim, but nonetheless. So that's where we come to. So at the Arsale Foundation, one of the things we wanted to do is simply say, okay, let's take the big picture here. Yeah, some of the treaties, there was a lot of British Columbia that wasn't subject to treaties for a whole bunch of historical reasons. Right. And First Nations in B.C. anyway, have been paid by the federal government, and in many cases

by the provincial government over the decades. So we simply looked at the numbers. The last 24 years, how much did the Cowichin first tribes get? And the number is $1.3 billion. This is for a First Nation of 5,000 people. It's for a First Nation that gets every other benefit of being in Canada from hospitals to highways

to airports to higher education, off-reserve, that sort of thing. So $1.3 billion. And my question, our question is author, is in this study, and I think it's a question all Canadian should ask, but especially those in British Columbia, when you get a land claim like this against Canada,

the nation state of Canada, literally against the federal government, but also against potentially private property owners, shouldn't 1.3 billion kind of count towards that claim? And I think as we are striving for true reconciliation in this country, we come up against numbers like this, and we come up against, you know, the reality of these supreme,

these odd decisions by the judiciary, that make most of us scratch our heads, it feels to me like there is an increased demand or appetite for transparency and knowing where this money is going, what it is for, you know, who's getting their hands on it, how much of it is going directly to the end user, how much of it is getting, you know, held onto by, you know, leaders. Without transparency, I don't know that we can get to true reconciliation.

That's part of it. And it matters because also, remember that some First Nations now sign agreements that the rest of us can't look at. They also, with governments, they also sign agreements that, in some cases with companies, where there's a revenue stream that are private and confidential. Now, what's the problem with that? Well, the problem with, at least part of that, especially in terms of governments, is what are the governments giving away in our behalf? What are they promising in our behalf? and for sure in some cases, you know, where does the money end up? I don't think it's absurd, it's not absurd.

It's not exaggeration to say there have been concerns for some time, some First Nations across the country about accountability. And the better ones are, you know, their books are fully open. I mean, look, in the case of the Cowherton First Nation, these numbers actually came from their financial statements. So kudos to the Cowich and tribes. We took 24 years of their financial statements online, adjusted it for inflation, and boom, you get,

what amounts to over $220,000 per person, you know, over $900,000, over that, rather, almost over $9,000 for a family of four, $227,000 per person, or member, rather. That's a lot of money when you consider it's not in place of what is delivered to every other Canadian in terms of hospitals, highways, the rest of it. It's on top. It's in addition to it. And again, the argument is, look, if the argument we didn't have a treaty and therefore you owe us, simplifying only slightly.

Well, hold it. Without a treaty, and the Canadian nation state, the federal government and provincial governments have been paying money to every first nation in British Columbia without a treaty. Again, the point of this paper, rhetorically at least, and it should show up in court one day, I hope, doesn't the money count that we paid that we didn't have to? Yeah. And has anyone on the couch inside either pushed back or answered for those questions? No, I don't think so. And this paper is just released today, so we'll see what the response is, right? But I assume reporters doing their job in Vancouver and the rest of the province will ask exactly that question, Ben. I mean, the other interesting thing about this is there's some, you know, there's some, there's overlapping claims now in British Columbia, right? I mean, the federal government back in February signed to deal with the Muscman First Nation, which is famously taken over some of the UBC lands and was given that over a decade ago by the BC government. University of British Columbia Golf Course, land, and some other land there.

And they kind of act as a property developer. I mean, great. You know, they're making some money on some land. But, again, we're talking about a massive amount of money going to a small number of members. There's also, I think, an aim. Let's suppose the Cowichin end up after all the appeals, owning a chunk of Richmond. The problem is you can't have two masters. You can't have two, you know, either someone only,

a few simple property and it's real property or it's owned by someone else. Either you have a provincial government and a federal government that already take taxes from property or you can add another First Nation to that. How great is that going to be for investment in British Columbia? We've already seen certain examples of, you know, an industrial park that was supposed to be developed and the potential buyer said, yeah, this is too complex for us. And we don't want to go down this road to only find out that the person that we thought we were dealing with is not the title holder. Yeah. And think about the bureaucracy. I talked to a mining executive last week in Vancouver, and his company is dealing

with 20-some First Nations over one mining claim, in addition to BC and federal government regulations. I mean, how likely is it that you're going to see investment poor into British Columbia, and it's been decreasing for some time? I've been paying attention to this issue since 1999 when I was the BC director for the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, and this has become ever more convoluted, ever more complex. And so, so again, I think we need to get back to first principles. almost. There's a lot of money that goes to First Nations, and that's fine. Look, it's not that we don't want First Nations to have an education system, preferably on reserve, which some do. It's not that you don't want health care for First Nations people across the country. That's the point of some

of the federal payments, and some of it ends up exactly where it should be in education and health care. But it's not the only money that matters. And in terms of accountability, by the way, imagine you're a property owner who's going to be taxed by a First Nation, but you can't vote for because you're not a member of that First Nation, but they have control over your property. How does that work out well? Mark, we're going to have to leave it there, but I want to thank you so much. This is an eye-opening report. And like you said, here's hoping that responsible members of the press pick it up and ask some

important questions because it's not about denying people what they are owed. It's about tracking the money so we can ensure that it's going to the right people. Thank you very much. Hey, Wayfair's big sale is almost here. And you can score the best deals in home, like up to 80% off with free. shipping on everything. Shop Wayday from April 25th through 27th at Wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home.