The Ben Mulroney Show - Carney has his hands full. In one hand, a fight with First Nations. In the other, Trump.

Episode Date: July 16, 2025

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Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show on this Wednesday, July 16th. Thank you so much for spending a little bit of your day with us. And let's get a lay of the land for our Prime Minister Mark Carney. He's got a court challenge on his hands in the form of First Nations, taking him to court asking for an injunction against Bill C-5. Bill C-5 is the, I think it's called the One Canadian Economy Act that is supposed to fast track all of these big projects of national importance. And we have to move with great speed here because Donald Trump isn't going anywhere and he likes to lob grenades and we have to get our house in order. For 10 years, I'm not quite sure what this government did, but it's almost as if, well, the liberal government before this one, but they made some decisions that we got in our own way on a lot of fronts.

We caused a lot of the crises that we're dealing with right now. And so Mark Carney came in and he said, we've got to move with lightning speed on a number of these projects so that we can grow the economy from within. To use an expression from Justin Trudeau, we're going to grow the economy from the heart out.

Yeah, you remember that? So anyway, so that was the plan, right? The Conservatives got behind it. The NDP didn't, obviously, and the Bloc Québécois didn't, obviously, because they don't want one Canadian economy. They want a Quebec economy, and then they want Canada to do whatever the heck they want to do. But in doing that, it meant that the certain certain dialogues did not take place, or not in the meaningful way that they were either supposed to or were expected to take place.

And I'm talking specifically of the of the meaningful dialogue with First Nations. And some of them are very upset and they're asking the court for an injunction. Also they're asking the court to strike down the law, strike down the law, require the federal government to make a series of declarations about how they were passed without respect to First Nations or the Constitution and pay a hundred million dollars in damages to the communities. That is insane. That is insane. Because look, this is me coming to the defense of Mark Carney. Mark Carney realizes that we have two problems in this country. We have a spending problem, and we also have a revenue problem.

Not to say we are, the people aren't taxed enough because they are, but we aren't doing enough things in this country that could generate money that could then get taxed. And so if we build pipelines, there's a lot of money that's gonna flow through those. You know what comes from that? Taxes. And so to the First Nations,

and I can't name them, and it doesn't even matter which First Nation an ought. If you want $100 million for an act that hasn't even done anything yet, that's insane and insulting. But there's about $40 billion a year that go to First Nations communities by way of the federal government every year. If you want that money to keep flowing, you got to let happen. Or let it happen with the summit

that's supposed to happen next week. Next week, I think, or in the next few weeks, the prime minister is gonna be sitting down with leaders from First Nations groups. And then a month later, he's gonna be sitting down with Inuit members, groups. And then a month later with Métis groups. That has to be enough. That has to be enough.

It has to be enough. And if it's not enough, I don't know what to tell you, man. Like this stuff has to get done. And if you want the money that comes from the federal government, you have to let the federal government do the things that they're supposed to do, which is open up the country

so that a private industry can make a bunch of money, which then goes back to the feds, and then part of it goes to First Nations. So if you think $100 million is gonna go very far versus 40 bill, I don't know what to say. So I stand with Mark Carney on this. I absolutely get this done, fight this in court. And make sure that when you do sit down with First Nations, it is, you listen to them, and you listen to them, and you listen to them. And you listen to them.

And you listen to them. And you listen to them. And you listen to them. And you listen to them. And you listen to them. And you listen to them. And you listen to them. on this. Absolutely get this done. Fight this in court and make sure that when you do sit down with First Nations, it is you listen to them. And if there are ways to retroactively change the law in a way that doesn't affect what we have to do, go for it. So that's one thing that he's dealing with. The other thing he's dealing with is that he's resigned to the belief that the tariffs that Donald Trump has been levying on our country aren't going anywhere. Yes, I mean, elbows up, we barely knew ye.

It was only a few months ago that the t-shirts were being printed. And this was going to usher in a new moment of Canadian pride and our counter tariffs were going to be strategic and cause the most pain to the American economy. None of that mattered to Donald Trump. And so why don't we listen to I guess the conclusion that our Prime Minister came to. First thing to say is the government has consistently stood up for Canadian workers and businesses throughout these negotiations will continue to do so. I expect that the discussions will intensify between now

and the end of the month and we'll be working hard on that. At the same time we need to recognize that the commercial landscape globally has changed. It's changed in a fundamental manner. And we will continue to focus on what we can most control, which is building a strong Canadian economy. Yeah, so the strong Canadian economy, we just addressed that. But it is what he said, the prime minister says he sees little evidence that it's possible to strike a deal with President Donald Trump that removes all US tariffs on Canadian goods.

Quote, there is not much evidence at this moment of agreements, arrangements, or negotiations with the Americans for any country, any jurisdiction, to have a tariff-free deal. And don't forget, we've got to be, we're still gonna have to deal with supply management, which we actually have a law on the books that prevents his government from touching it.

So what's gonna happen if Donald Trump says, oh, now do supply management. And so this is a problem, this is a problem of Mark Carney's own making, not the tariffs, that's not of his own making. The fact that there are now people like myself who are remembering what he sold us in the last election, he said, he's the guy.

He would not have shown up. He would not have shown up in Canadian politics were we not in this crisis. And did he not believe that he was the person to solve it? Now what you're saying, more or less, is that Donald Trump's gonna be Donald Trump. Trump's got a Trump. And it really doesn't matter

who's on the other side of the table. And you gotta remember, he's negotiating for Canada. He's on that side of the table because we put him there. And we put him there because collectively, we were told that he was the guy, he knew how to handle this guy. His big brain was gonna handle Donald Trump. And Kate Harrison of Summa Strategies

tweeted this morning that the tariffs on the Canadian economy are higher today than they were before the election. Things have actually gotten worse for the Canadian economy since the election. And again, like this is, I'm not blaming Mark Carney, but he and his team put together a narrative about why he was the best choice in the election.

And now it seems that maybe he is, but it's not for this reason. And this is the reason he told us he was coming in. And so this is me not standing with Mark Carney. You heard me stand with him at the beginning. And now I'm saying, no, no, this is of your own doing, man. This is the bed that you made. You get to sleep in the prime minister's bed.

At least in my opinion, there are consequences. I think Andrew Coyne wrote in The Globe that nobody could have possibly negotiated with Donald Trump. And he's right, nobody could have, except that's not what Mark Carney told us. Mark Carney told us he could do it. He's the guy.

He was Churchill, remember? He was Churchill. And you either have, you either picked Churchill or Neville Chamberlain. And he's tried everything. He's tried the elbows up, elbows down. He's tried the flattery. He's tried the talking tough.

He has tried counter tariffs. And he has tried counter tariffs, then he's tried taking them off. He got rid of the DST. He's tried it all, it hasn't worked. And I struggle to see how Pierre Poliev would have done it worse than this. So look, if you're gonna sell us a bill of goods, you gotta come through.

Don't go anywhere when we come back. Our good friend Tony Chapman is here. Apparently there are like these Olympic games now where you can take any drug imaginable. We'll talk about that next. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Thank you so much for finding us on the radio, on a streaming app, on the podcast platforms, now on YouTube and on social media. Ben Mulroney show at Ben Mulroney show, wherever you get your social media. Instagram is the one we like the most because it's moving people, it's moving.

We've only had an Instagram page for whatever, account for just over a month. And we've got like 13,000 followers already. Yeah, so keep it coming. I like to tell people it's like test driving the show. You can go in there, you can watch little snippets of the show. And if you like it, come join us for the long form stuff. And then go share that stuff. Because the more people we can bring on board, the better it is for all of us. And speaking of better, we're joined by one of our

best friends here at the Ben Mulroney show, Tony Chapman, the host of the podcast, Chatter That Matters. Thank you so much for being here. Always a pleasure and congratulations on your success. Thank you very much. Let's talk, I will start with an athletic competition that is hoping to be successful as well. The enhanced games.

So I guess this is like the Olympics, but for steroids. It's for steroids, performance enhancing drugs, basically saying everybody cheats to some extent because the gold medal, people are willing to do anything to get on that podium. So rather than burying it in the shadows, why is it science march in step with these athletes and say, what can we learn about creating superhuman beings? Yeah. Yeah. And that's what they're after. So, you know, it's easy to go against it saying, oh my God, you're just jacking these people. They're not right. But I would argue is the science of hydration fair? Of course it is. So if you want to follow that science.

So I think what I'd like about it is longevity, health, wellness. Science is going to have to march and step with aspirations of chasing the founder youth. To me, this game is a testament to that America is saying, I'm not going to let China, East Germany, some of the other countries have been notorious for doing that. Rather than burying it, let's go full center and maybe we can get some patents and build a global economy with it. Yeah. So you think if they position it well, this is something that could go far.

Listen, wouldn't you not take a growth hormone that you felt was effective in helping you stand and have mobility in your 80s? You'd start taking it now. This is what this is. This is testament because the gold medal is going to draw a lot of attention. As long as science is in step and it's proper science being used in the human body, I'm all for it. All right.

Well, let's talk about something that will not last forever. It's only going to be with us for five short years, and that's Rogers Stadium at Downsview. The Rogers group put it up, 50,000 people for an outdoor venue. Great idea, because the Rogers arena, Sky Dome, is full with the Blue Jays most days in the summer. And if you want to put on a concert, you're kind of, you're out of luck because you just don't have access to it. So what, so Toronto has been losing out on some very big concerts over the past few years.

So great idea, but it was marred by some pretty bad logistical nightmares in the first few days that it was open. And I got, I've got the question I have for you Tony is, because it does seem like they I've got the question I have for you Tony is, because it does seem like they've righted the ship. How long does a new company, does a new brand have of negative press before it sticks, before that becomes their brand? So it's a great question and it depends on how many times they repeat the mistakes.

So the first thing I would say to you, and it's very often brands want to capture other people's spotlight. I hire an influencer. I get to sponsor a stadium. I'd have to put a dollar in capital and I just have to put my name on it. The problem is anytime you do that, you're surrendering your brand promise to something you don't have control over. What's that celebrity going to do in the back of a limousine? In the case of the stadium, how well did they service the people? So the blowback, the exciting part is when it works well, I'm getting a lot of free media, a lot of organic, a lot of Instagram shares. Everything's exciting. What a great Coldplay concert at the Rogers Stadium. When it blows up in your face, that's the problem. What I'm surprised at is that the Metrolinx, the TTCs, the Live Nations didn't get more of this because really

Rogers is saying, I'm sponsoring the stadium, but the actual customer promise, the fan experience is really out of my hands. But given Rogers is such a big brand, social media slingshots come out and they go flying. What they have to do is doing what they're saying with Grace, hey, listen, we're meeting with the people responsible for this and we really like the progress they're making, and start putting a little bit of deflection against it. But I can promise you that if you come there and you watch a concert outside,

it's what Rogers is all about, great concert and sports experiences. Look, I only know what I saw on social media. And the first couple of days, all I saw were the long lineups and the frustration. But then that started changing. And I remember there was a day where I saw four or five really cool Instagram stories of people at the concert.

Everybody wants the Las Vegas Sphere. But even the Sphere when it began had a lot of bugs to work out. Canadians are so cynical right now. We're just looking for failure. We were almost celebrated Blackberry going out of business, Nortel going out of business, we're all, Lululemon struggling. As opposed to going, these are our poster trials

we should be so proud of. And something is wired in Canadians. We're looking for all the reasons why not, versus celebrating the fact that guess what? In a market that was underserved by concert venues, we now, you know, always talking about the location. Well, if you happen to live in Markham, that's a pretty good location, versus trying to come downtown. I don you know, always talking about the location. Well, if you happen to live in Markham, that's a pretty good location versus trying to come downtown.

I don't know that people were celebrating the death of Blackberry. I think what they, because I remember when the leadership team mocked the iPhone when it came out. And so it was sort of like, yeah, guys, like the writing was on the wall. And frankly, I think they should have, they should have. We should do a whole show on this because my point was they lost security. What BlackBerry had was the CIA saying you're only allowed to use the Pentagon, a BlackBerry. Second iPhone came in and said, we gotta be an iPhone. They should never said, let iPhone do what they want.

We're gonna be the most secure mobile device in the world and double down and triple down cyber threat, cyber protection, banking. They could have run that stream and still be a very viable brand. What they did is they lost what they stood for and tried to chase something there never were. But they also needed to adopt the Google operating system a lot faster. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of strategic mistakes.

Their arrogance was unbelievable. And hearing them say, everybody wants a keyboard. Yeah. I mean, I never wanted to leave my BlackBerry because I thought the iPhone was too small. And then they made it bigger for me. And there you go. Now, no problems. So when they went under, it was sort of like, you should have seen it coming. But the arrogance also is they had a lot of telcos around the world that was so tired of BlackBerry demanding these things that they were looking for something to counter. And this is something, when you're so big

and you think you've got, like Air Canada, I've got control of the marketplace, understand that consumers will absolutely support an underdog because they want some competition. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Well, speaking of Apple, and they certainly are not the underdog in most fights, but they signed a deal for Rare Earth Minerals

to manufacture iPhones in America. That can't be true. It is. And what they're trying to do now is they're following, you got to understand Trump's playbook is you want to do business, do business in America. One of the reasons they went to China is for the rare minerals. That's what, because they need it.

Essentially what they're doing, same as Google's doing with nuclear power saying, we're not going to worry about government. We're going to control our whole vertical chain. And I think it's a smart move that they're doing, same as Google's doing with nuclear power, saying, we're not going to worry about government, we're going to control our whole vertical chain. And I think it's a smart move that they're making. I had somebody in, I had an expert come in here in studio and talk to me about why it's an absolute impossibility for Apple to produce a phone in North America. They have invested over $50 billion a year for the past 15 years every single year 50 bill Goes into China to deal with like every aspect of their supply chain and the building of all of their products

Yeah, and they're moving already moving some of that business to Vietnam because they're so dependent on China But what that expert might not be thinking about is nanotechnology advanced manufacturing What happens down the road when you don't need people to make your iPhone? Yeah, it's all done with robotics. Where are you gonna do it? How about if you can craft a personalized iPhone from your home? We don't know how fast technology is moving, but what I think Apple is signaling to the United States, same reason they brought all that cash back the last time Trump was in power, and he did the tax bill, repropriate, first and foremost, we're American. I got to give Trump credit. People are at least strategically saying, what can I do in America to at least appease

the president, signal that I'm listening to them, whether that's reality or not, time will tell. But I do think that there's a lot of moves to say, how can we bring some of the stuff back within the borders of the United States? Listen, I take everything you say as gospel, but that doesn't change the fact that if that phone is made in America, it's going to be 2,500 bucks. Right now it will be. But down the road, if they're planning 10 years,

now if you've got $50 billion a year to spend on advanced manufacturing, what if they took labor out of building a phone? Is that possible? Four people work in a Gillette factory. They produce several hundred thousand brazier blades a minute. Seoul Korea has just built a new subway line

before we did our LRT. It took them three years. Four people run that subway station. Every subway car, the entire thing is done by four people. Yeah, Korea is living in the future. Well, so why can't we Apple and America live in the future? Tony Chapman, we're gonna end on that question. Thank you so much, my friend. Always a pleasure. Oh yeah, all you sharktastic fanatics here for summer's best beach parties. They're all here, hammerheads, great whites, so many sharks I can't even name them all.

That's right, Daddy-o. Show me that smile. Sharkfest, all week long on National Geographic.