The Ben Mulroney Show - Click bait headlines ? / Some eye-dropping health care usage numbers

Episode Date: June 17, 2026

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This podcast is brought to you by the National Payroll Institute, the leader for the payroll profession in Canada, setting the standard of professional excellence, delivering critical expertise, and providing resources that over 45,000 payroll professionals rely on. Well, I am excited. I'm excited that tomorrow I'm going to be in Montreal for a very special interview.

It is the final day of the season of the West Block, which is the global news program that I host, much to the chagrin of a very special interview. a certain type of person. But in honor of the end of the season, I was asked by my producer if I could secure an interview with my mother. And so I'm going to go to my parents' place

and we're going to chat about all sorts of things, education, because my mom is the chancellor of St. Francis Xavier University, where my father's institute, the Brian Mulerney Institute of Government is. And she is, so she's been there for a couple of years on the job. I think she's got some stuff to say. philanthropy. I am going to ask her about 24 Sussex Drive.

And I think now we'll talk about my dad and stories. And it's going to be really nice. And then when it's done, we're going to go to my dad's favorite restaurant and we're going to sit in his favorite table. And we're going to leave his seat open. And I'll probably go visit where he's laid to rest. I'll chat with him and then come back. But I will be doing the show from Montreal. I got all outfitted up with the tech. I want to thank Michelle and Jason for making that happen. very, very kind of them. And so I'm excited to do the show from my dad's office.

Have you ever been to a movie? You saw the trailer, right? And you thought it was going to be one thing. And then you go to the movie and it's something completely different. And you're left feeling like you were sold a bill of goods. Well, there's an online version of that now. It's when the headline of the story that you were told has nothing to do with the story. and a lot of us, including myself, got into a conversation about the headline on CTV news on their Twitter,

should the rainbow replace the Maple Leaf during Pride Month at schools? No, nothing should replace the Maple Leaf to me ever. And my contention, I went back and forth with some people on this, that all the, whatever your agenda is, whatever your politics, whatever your mission in life is, if you are working on it and you are successful, and it's thanks to this country, everything flows from the Maple Leaf.

And people had some hot takes, some hot takes, but it turns out that's not what the story's even about. The story is about a Barry Elementary School that briefly replaced its Canadian flag with a pride flag. And the stories that the flag was removed for a short, period of time. The headline, though, muses about, oh, maybe we should get rid of it for the whole month. And intrepid in your, in your former life as a journalist, you must have encountered this sort of thing, the disconnect between the story that you were putting forth and how it was being

sold. Well, it works differently in every newsroom. But the reporter there, he's put his story together. He's edited his stories, put it out there. And whether or not he wrote the online copy is unclear. It looks like it's actually just the same copy from online as from his story. But what often happens is it goes to the online editors, the people who put out this stuff, and they write the headline for it. Oftentimes the reporter never sees the headline before it goes out or even the broadcast people because online and broadcast are two separate divisions. So that could explain this, but it doesn't explain how it still went out and didn't get overseen by, I guess, very people up above them.

It didn't get the green light. But you've got to ask yourself, I mean, are we living in a world when it comes to this sort of thing? Does the end justify the means? Meaning, if you put out sort of a false headline, the story at no point ask the question that is asked in the headline. At no point. That was not the thrust. That was not the crux.

That was nothing. But if because of that headline, they saw a significantly, like this article over indexes versus what this guy has done in the past or what normally happens at that time of day, are they going to look at it and say, oh, you know what? I mean, we cut their attention and that's what we're after after eyeballs. I guarantee you the reporter on this story is getting emails. He's getting messages. What the heck are you talking about?

And then they look, because they probably, people aren't reading the story. seeing the headline, it's clickbait. And also, there is the element there that you do have people, and I've seen it in, I've seen it where I was before, I've seen it in other stations as well, where you have people who do have a worldview that they want to push forth. And that influences what they say and what they write and how they want stories put together. And the person who wrote this headline probably wishes the story was about that. Well, I had the misfortune of engaging with somebody who calls himself a journalist. And I put forth what should not be a hot take, that the Canadian flag is the flag.

Everything else is secondary to it. I mean, actually, there's a law that says the Canadian flag flies the highest, right? But this person who calls themselves a journalist, what they do? They insulted me by way of my sex life. and then they called me something like a grade 10. Oh, I love fascist. I'm a fascist, right? There was that in there too.

When you put that with this, we talked about it two days ago. Trust in media is not high. It's not high. And when journalists behave like deranged lunatics with no sense of decorum, unwilling to engage with substantial arguments, and instead hurl insults. She actually acknowledged that she was insulting me. When that is your, when that's what you do,

that's what you present to a place where you're going to get the most eyeballs. Is anyone going to your substack? Probably not as many who are going to see you on Twitter. And if that's how you present, and in your bio it says journalist, again, like if you get in the mud with the trolls, you're a troll. And then you see something like this, never mind the fact that there's the disconnect between

the name of the article and the what it's actually about but we are seeing that they're going after eyeballs in a very craven way that is again the reason I criticize is because

I believe that there is nobility in the pursuit of journalism and there are good people who work their butts off to build reputations so that we will trust them and then you have stuff like this that eats away at that trust and you have people like the one I just described who not only undermine the trust of the good ones,

but try to leverage the title of journalist to get their clicks. And that makes them, is the word, bottom feeder not appropriate? I mean, she called me a fascist. Again, this is somebody who is just throwing out the stuff. Again, it's not about that person. It's about, it's about this. They're using terminologies and they're using phrases that just are meant to be able to get people going.

And also, and we've spoken about this so much where it's because people on certain ends of the spectrum, on either end of the spectrum, are unwilling to listen to anything beyond what their worldview is. And they think, okay, how can you possibly not think that? Yeah. Well, I had one guy essentially say that unless you acknowledge that we must replace the Maple Leaf with the pride flag, then you are denying the existence of the LGBTQ plus community. Okay. That is the stupidest argument ever. You're denying they exist. How can you deny that they exist because you disagree with something?

Or you not even disagree. It's you question it. And you question why it's being thrust upon you. Someone puts out the question. I answer no. Someone says, should the rainbow replace the maple leaf? I say no and I give my arguments. I don't think it should either.

That turns into me being a fascist. And denying that gay people exist. That doesn't connect at all. No, of course not. Of course. You can't get there from here. Anyway, it's nice to get that off our chest and talk about that because this was one of those oddities today.

But I will say it one last time. I'm sure we'll bring it up. Again, there are good and great people doing good and great journalism. And one of the reasons that the trust in the media is as far down as it is is because of the examples we've been giving you over the course of this week. And those things are in the control of a lot of these people. You have agency over these things. Take control, take accountability, take responsibility, change those things. And maybe you'll see that number creep back up where it belongs.

When we come back, we've got a heck of a story. I mean, how often do you go to the doctor every year? Well, there's some people going more than they should, more than they can. Could we be exposing some fraud here? Possibly. Come on back. Staples Preferred Business Membership, built for busy business owners, because you've got bigger things to think about. With Staples Preferred, get free delivery.

No minimums. Staples Preferred unlocks up to 3% back. Plus 10% savings on print and exclusive wireless offers. One less thing on your plate. Actually, a lot less. Visit staples.ca slash preferred. That was easy. Welcome back.

And I just want to thank you for joining us. You may be listening on the radio. You may be listening as a podcast. You may be streaming us on the Iheart radio app. You may find us eventually on YouTube or on social media. Life is busy and you've got lots of screens and lots of speakers. And we thank you for finding us on any one of those platforms. We really do appreciate it.

All right. We got to talk about going to the doctor, right? I haven't been in a really long time. I've been thinking about it. I've got to go back. My kids finally have their appointments. We're going to the dentist. But there is a list that was made of patients in different provinces

with 50 appointments or more, patients with 100 appointments or more, and a number of visits by top 10 users. And you would think as you go through the list of provinces that all things being equal, Ontario having the largest population, Quebec having the second largest population, those would obviously present with the highest numbers.

That is not the case by a long shot. Ontario has 2,269 patients with 50 or more appointments. All right? So you would think that would be the baseline, right? No. Alberta has 25,767. British Columbia has nearly 15,000. So something's going on.

I don't know what it is, but to help us make sense of it, because it's no way it's hypochondriacs. We're joined by Colin Craig. He's the president of second street. dot org, Colin, welcome to the show and tell our listeners what Second Street does. Yeah, so we're a public policy think tank, which means we research government policies, especially health care, to try and figure out how we can come up with constructive ideas to improve the system.

Okay, so this list, and this was from 2024, was I wrong to highlight that as sort of the anchor, the fact that Ontario's got 2200 and Alberta's got 25,000? Well, yeah, you're right to flag these, because I think governments should be looking into these numbers more closely. And one of the things we know in the report is that different provinces will use different sort of codes for what they count. Right. Okay. So one province may cast a wider net in terms of what they would include to come up at their numbers, whereas another one might use a smaller net kind of thing. But I think really the numbers are showing that, wait a second here, we've got a lot of cases where a lot of,

of patients have a very high volume of appointments with a doctor in a single year. So, look, you can't diagnose a problem unless you know what's wrong, and you can't put forth new policy ideas and strategies until you do that first thing. So talk to me about how you would walk through these numbers. Like, what are you seeing? You must be shocked by the numbers. Were you surprised that they were this high? Yes, I was. I mean, I've seen stories in media in the past been where they've looked at, you know, patients having a high, a number of appointments in a single year. And I haven't seen those stories for a while.

So I'm just going to file some F-O-Ys and see what we, with data we can get out of government. So in Quebec, I mean, that's where you have the top patient, so to speak, in Canada in 2024 with 362 appointments. So hold on. Let's just, let's just stop there. So the one patient claims to have gone to the doctor almost every day. let's give them Christmas, Christmas Eve, and New Year's Day. Those are the...

I got to say this. You know, in our staff, we kind of wondered if they took the Super Bowl off. You might be right. You might be right. I don't know, but it's basically every day, which is just unbelievable here. Okay. So, look, my first instinct was, well, these people are going to the doctor a lot. But it feels...

Can we live in a world for a second? I don't have any proof that there's fraud here, but let's live in a world where this is fraud. In order for there to be fraud, you've got to have a patient willing to do it. You've got to have a doctor willing to do it as well, no? Well, you might not even need the doctor, right? So let's say I share my health card with someone else. I mean, my health card doesn't have a photo or anything. So, you know, someone who's in Canada, maybe a buddy from another country who needs some treatment.

I just want you to take my health card, go and see about that, you know, throat problem you've got or whatever, right? Yeah. So, I mean, that kind of thing could be going on. people could be selling their cards. We don't know. And you're not the first to suggest that maybe there is fraud. I mean, one official in one province we spoke to kind of wondered if that's what's happening. My guess is that these numbers are a combination of three main things.

Okay. One would be some legitimate cases. Some people have health problems where they're pretty severe. They're unique. They require a high number of appointments in a single year. So I think there's some legitimate cases for sure. I think there's also cases where patients are abusing the system. Yeah.

You know, people that just go and see the doctor every week or more than months a week. Yeah. And, you know, when you look at online comments when this came out, we've seen people make that kind of a thing. One lady in a clinic in Edmonton suggested that. So I think that's going on. And then the third thing would be maybe doctors abusing their ability to build a system or tell patients, yeah, yeah, come in again next week when really they don't need to. And Ontario's auditors report from last year noted that there were cases where doctors

were billing for more than 24 hours in a single 24-hour period. Look, there's possible, right? Yeah, well, listen, there's a couple of things. One, I've said this before, I believe that the larger the organization, the bigger it is, the more susceptible it is to abuse, right? And then it's, that's just, to me, that's a fact. If there's, the more nodes there are, the more people there are, the more systems there are, those systems can then be exploited.

And so we've got, I mean, I don't know that there are much, many bigger systems than these provincial health care systems. And you've got roughly half a million people in Canada who shouldn't be here but haven't left. And so if they're still here, are some of them going to the doctor? And if they are, maybe this is one of the ways they're going. Maybe they look like their neighbor. And so they just borrow their card if they've got a photo on it. And if it doesn't have a photo, even better. I mean, to me, that doesn't seem like a stretch.

And it's something worthy of exploration. Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, look, we got over 41 million people in this country and thousands of doctors. And I think most people are probably pretty responsible with the system. And I think most doctors are, you know, stand up individuals. But when you have, like you say, high volumes of people, you're going to find some people that will be turned out to be bad apples. So I think there's that going on. You know, in terms of what we can do, if you're a provincial politician hearing this,

you could ask your provincial auditor to look at the numbers for your province. And that's one thing to do. Another thing that could be done is maybe look at the provincial online e-health record sites. And maybe they could start to display the cost of these visits to patients. So if they log in and they see, wow, you know, I went a lot of times last year. And this is costing the system a lot. Call it. It's so funny.

that you mentioned that because I had a conversation with my dad a few years after he left politics. And I said, you know, because he told me when he left politics, he said, I tried everything I wanted to try. And some of it was successful and some of it wasn't. But all the ideas that I thought worthy of attempting, I did. And now it's time for somebody else to come in. And then I asked him the same question. He said, actually, he remembered the conversation. He said, you know what, Ben, I forgot to tell you there was one thing I wanted to do that we didn't get to.

I wanted to send every Canadian at the end of a year, an individual. voice letting them know how much they were taking out of the health care system. Because I want to peg it at a real number so that they know there's a lot of people walking around saying health care is free, health care is free, health care is free, it is not free. And some people are going in there because they need, they need to be told they have a cold. And so he always thought that that would have a positive influence on this sort of thing. I think it would. I know Alberta used to do it in the past is what I'm told long before I moved out west,

but it's something we're going to be looking into as an organization a bit more. But I think it would help. You know, some people would kind of stop in their tracks and say, wow, you know, I had no idea it was costing this much because, you know, we're never presented as patients with the cost of the services that we're receiving, right? Yeah, you're right. So I think it could change favor. The other thing it could do, Ben, is let's say you receive that statement and you look at it and you go,

this is wrong. I didn't go 10 times. Exactly. I went once. Yeah, exactly. Someone is billing the system too much. And then people end up being the watchdog. You have citizen watchdogs. Hey, Colin, we're going to leave it there. But if people want to learn more, then go to second street.org.

Colin Craig, I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Thanks a lot. All right. We are going to take a break. But when we come back is what we just learned about so-called healthcare abusers, part of an underground economy. Is it related to people not paying taxes?

We're going to look into that. Next, right here on the Bedmoorne Show. This spring, denim gets a softer, lighter update. Introducing Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg, a new fit that moves with you. It's everything you want denim to feel like for summer. Easy, breathable, and effortlessly cool. With a fit that creates natural movement and a wide leg that feels modern, not overwhelming. Plus, that signature, wait, for this price?

Moment. Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg. Well, in our last segment, we were speaking with somebody who revealed some very concerning numbers about health care usage. People with Canadians from every province and how many patients in each province have gone to the doctor more than 50 times, more than 100 times, as well as the number of visits by top 10 users. Right? So, for example, in PEI, the number of visits by top 10 users, the range is 49 to 76 times, which is, I mean, it could be a lot. Newfoundland Labrador, 81 to 142. In Quebec, 295 to 362. So when you hear to see a number like that, you're like, maybe we should look at that person, right? Just because it feels like the number isn't. Some people are sick and they do need a lot of time. There are people who...

But to go over 300 times in a year, I mean, you're going pretty much every day. Yeah. So that there, I mean, could it be explained by somebody who was extremely sick? 100%. Possibly. Not 100%. But it certainly can happen. 100% it can't happen.

But does it also raise a possible red flag where you go, huh, I think the Ministry of Health maybe should look into this. And to go back to the initial red flag, when Ontario, our most populous province, has 2,269 patients in 2024 with 50 or more appointments. 2,2,269 in Ontario. But Alberta has 25,767 patients with 50 or more appointments. That is ordered. There could be a different way of looking at them.

It might be, but does it explain, you know, 12xing the number? Yeah. And BC is like 15,000. patients who saw their doctor over 50 times. In other words, it bears some more scrutiny. And it's super low in Saskatchewan in Nova Scotia, in P.E.I. and Newfoundland. And so we were looking at this. After we talked about this, Intrepid and I, we started thinking, are these numbers related to immigration?

There's a lot of people living here that aren't supposed to be here, which means they are not taxpayers. but what happens when one of them gets sick, right? So do they take advantage of a friend who might give them their health card or something else? And then from there... And just to be clear, we're talking about people who have visas have expired. Students who have overstayed their welcome and they just haven't gone home. And that number, they've said they have no idea, but it's been pegged as high as half a million.

high as half a million. That are just out there. And we've read article after what the government asks them to leave. That's it. That's as much as we can do because that's as seriously as we as a nation have taken it. We don't know where they are. And even if we did, we don't have the manpower, the technology or the workflows to go get them and send them back where they are supposed to be. And even if they do go get them, then there's going to be an appeal.

Yeah. And another appeal. And asylum claims and all sorts of stuff. But all that to say, there are people who have gotten very comfortable here who are not taxpayers. And the reason we're bringing up not taxpayers is they're not paying into the system, but they're also, there are human beings, they can get sick. So what do you do?

We're wondering about that. But then from that, you know, we started talking, we looked at the Swedish good behavior rule. This just came out yesterday, day before. Sweden's parliament approved two major law tightening immigration bills, essentially calling for good behavior from allowing residency permits to be revoked for vague misconduct. Now, when I first saw this, I said,

okay, it's going to be a good behavior as in if you commit a crime, a serious crime, they will boot you out, which I thought, okay, that's interesting. But it was even more interested when they, interesting when I read, and they said, at the very top of the line was, it's for people who aren't paying their debts

and or working under the table. Which is very much in line with how a lot of people operate in the countries that they came from because they have no society, no sort of government in place. So everything for them is under the table. Everything's under the table. And so they might be doing it that way. They also might be doing it because they can't work legally. But there's some criticism of this saying it's going to create a hostile environment for non-citizens. I'm sort of of the opinion that you're not telling me something I don't know.

It's not hostile. It's different. You're essentially recognizing that there are different rules for citizens than there are for non-citizens. And what it seems like Sweden is saying is play by our rules. Make sure you pay into the system as you're supposed to. Make sure you're not breaking the rules that prevent us from benefiting from you being here, right? paying your taxes, paying your debts. And if you don't, we're going to send you home.

And for those who say, well, you can't do that, I always flip it around and say, if this person is afraid of going back to where they came from and they are happy that Sweden opened their doors to them, then act as if that's the case. Pay into the system. Pay into it. Be thankful you're here and be thankful by showing your appreciation by doing the things that you're supposed to. And if you don't, then I'm probably not going to buy the argument that you're afraid of going home. Can you see Canada doing this? Of course not. Sorry, that was a silly question.

And look, today, 21% of Sweden's population is foreign-born. This is not a, we're not attacking foreign-born anyone here. This is just looking at the numbers to say, to explain sort of what's happening. Yeah. And so when Intrepid brought up this idea of, you know, because they're focused so much on the financial incentives and the financial paying into the system. We're wondering whether they're trying to tamp down on the underground economy. And that's where we want to take the conversation next. Because Canada has, every country has a vibrant underground economy in different shapes and

sizes, I guess. Canada is no different. And we do have that. Ours is significant. $72.4 billion of underground economy in 2023. That's equal to 2.5% of our GDP. And if you're asking, well, what was that? I mean, we're not really, we're not talking about, like, we're not talking about drug dealers and stuff like that. We're talking about under the table construction, unreported wages and tips, unlicensed sale of like alcohol and tobacco. There's some smuggling, some unreported rental incomes, things like that. And how much tax is lost annually to this? About $26 billion in unpaid taxes overall. Which is a huge amount of money. It's significant. So there would be an incentive to look at what's going on.

in Sweden. If they have metrics in six months that show us that people are in fact paying into the system that they weren't paying into before, we could start looking at it as perhaps a model to tweak for the Canadian experience. But what's interesting though is that it's not just

we're talking about this in Sweden in terms of migrants who are being helped out by the social system and then decide not to pay back into it by working under the table. But here in Canada we have there's a lot of people who work in various industries, as we've said, say, you know, in the, in the, in the trades who say like plumbers or electricians and stuff. And they'll say, well, you know, they can do the job.

You know, we'll just do it. We'll just do pay cash. Pay cash. And that's part of it. And you think, oh, it would it be great to be able to knock all of that out? Well, it sounds perfect, but it, you need to have some of that to be otherwise. So oftentimes people will not be able to. do anymore. It's almost like a pressure

release valve. There's a recognition that there is going to be a little bit of this. It keeps businesses on the fringes that could be teetering on bankruptcy. Well, keeps them alive and keeps the workers fed and paid and taxes getting paid. It fills labor gaps that the formal economy can't.

And, you know, it's a reality. Like, I'm not sitting here saying we've got to tamp down on it writ large and completely. And so but it It is pretty big, and the lost taxes in Canada are very significant. And so maybe part of it is exactly finding those people who are here but aren't used to paying taxes saying,

no, you've got to pay into the system. Don't forget, we've talked about this. It breeds resentment in those of us who do pay our taxes. And we see the strain on the system and we don't want it to collapse. And so we need everybody rowing in the same direction. I am curious as to whether or not what I'll be. Alberta decided recently with their one card, which is the, I believe it's driver's license, health card,

and citizenship on one car. I want that. I'm wondering if, I mean, obviously they didn't see the second street.org report because that just sort of came out. But they know the numbers. They know what's going on. They see what's happening. And I wonder if that card was created in part because of stuff like this

and to be able to get out. And whether or not this card would actually do it. anything. Since the dawn of time, humanity has been at war. It has shaped the world around us. And if it somehow feels like we've been here before, it's because we have. I'm David Boris. I'm a military historian, and on my new podcast, Hostile History, I take us inside history's most defining wars and rebellions. From Genghis Khan to the war in Iran, find out how the past can explain the present. Search for and follow hostile history on Spotify, Apple Podcast, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.