The Ben Mulroney Show - First Nations warn of protests over Ontario mining law

Episode Date: June 5, 2025

Guests and Topics: -Ontario, Toronto to build new electricity transmission line to power city's downtown with Guest: Stephen Lecce, Ontario Energy Minister -First Nations warn of protests over Ontario mining law -Long Time Principal being Pushed Aside with Guest: Tasha Kheiriddin, Parent of a student at RHSA and Vice Chair of the School Advisory Council and Tasha’s Daughter Zara who started the petition If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Rise to rewards with the BMO Eclipse Rise Visa Card. Terms and conditions apply. Summer is Tim's ice latte season. It's also hike season, pool season, picnic season, and yeah, I'm down season. So drink it up with Tim's ice lattes now whipped for a smooth taste. Order yours on the Tim's app today at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. Before we get to our guest, I want to back into this conversation with a little story for context. Back when Eglinton was under construction, it was a war zone. I was up there almost every day and I noticed all these condo buildings

going up, all these condo towers. God knows how many people now live up there that didn't live there 15 years ago. I mean, hundreds, thousands. And I was at a park where my kids were playing soccer. And next to me was a person who was very high up in the city government. And I said to this person, I said, listen, while you got the street ripped up,

like, why don't you fix the pipes? Because you're going to have an issue with all these new toilets in these buildings you have thousands of people flushing waste that those pipes were not built for so while you have the street ripped up why don't you fix the pipes and he said ah Ben you don't know anything about about how government works you don't fix a problem until it becomes a problem because otherwise you don't get credit for fixing it. All you get credit for is the cost of adding or expanding the pipes.

You gotta wait till there's a crisis and then you get credit for fixing it. And I wanna tell that story because we're being joined now by Ontario's energy minister, Steven Lecce, whose actually his government is being proactive as it relates to how much energy the city of Toronto uses. Minister, welcome to the show. Good morning, Ben, good to be back.

So yeah, so you, unlike my friend, is looking to be proactive and deal with the problem before it becomes a problem. Why don't you tell me about it? I know this is a radical concept, Ben, for some some, but I mean here in our government, we're really trying to think about the future and build for our kids. That intergenerational lens is what's missing in government. So we're building transmission, announcing a third transmission line for the people of

Toronto because the city's grid, like the amount of power it will need is going to double by 2050. Massive amount of power. What is a third transmission line means to people of Toronto? It means we could literally energize 285,000 homes. Means we can support increasing population and condo development.

It means we can support industrial development and transit expansion, which as you know, very energy intensive. If we don't, like people say, well, what happens if we don't do this? development and transit expansion, which as you know, is very energy intensive. Yeah. If we don't, like people say, well, what happens if we don't do this? We're going to start deterring investment. International investors will not be able to come here because we won't have the power. Yeah.

So yes, proactivity is a strength. It is about time we're thinking long-term and planning ahead. And that's what I think is a cornerstone of our energy policy. Energy is economic policy today. And we just passed introduced legislation that requires our energy planners have economic development as their foremost priority. So we create jobs. Minister I I've been living in Toronto long enough to remember

the blackout I've we've seen rolling brownouts. With this expansion of the grid. Will those things be a thing of the past? Yeah, because our reliability will be protected with a significant amount of voltage capability to bring that power into the downtown core. There's three options are being considered. But the bottom line is, yes, it is reliable power. It means it's clean power, Ben, because right now, the liberals didn't plan. Like talking about like case studies, lessons learned, the liberals when they were there didn't plan ahead ever. Always short term, always electoral cycle, opposed to long term 10, 20, 30 year

big doll lenses. So what happens? We didn't have power for the downtown core. To your point, rolling brownouts and the lack of reliability, they have to put a natural gas peaker plant in the downtown core. This transmission line allows us over time to phase that out with clean, non-emitting power that comes from hydro and our nuclear fleet. So it's a good thing for the environment, but perhaps more than anything else, it's just good economic policy. Let's build for the future, be it nuclear power, critical minerals, like whatever we're doing, it's all about the long term prosperity of Canada. This will obviously be valuable in the future, but it's going to come with a I'm sure a significant price tag off the bat. Has this been costed out? Do we know what's going to cost the taxpayer?

Yeah. So in August, those options are going to be profiled, the costing as well. There's definitely a cost to build transmission. As you know, these are not inexpensive investments, but obviously there's a cost of in action too, when it comes to deterring investment. So we're going to release that, all the details of it. And of course, fully funded, the province is committing to stepping up to make sure we've got the power to build our, to drive our growth and to make sure we never say no to an investor that wants to create jobs and obviously opportunities for Canadians here. Your boss, the Premier, is still dealing with the the back and forth of tariffs and dealing with Donald Trump and he said recently

that everything is on the table when asked about whether or not Ontario would surcharge on outgoing electricity. Has that been discussed? Look, I mean, the premier is right. Of course, everything's on the table. But I mean, the objective is for the federal government to lead by looking at a suite of retaliatory action. The premier has said he does believe we need to hit them back and hit them hard dollar for dollar in this moment, just because it sends a signal that we're going to stand by our steel and our and our workforce. So right now we're working with the Fed. They're leading the renegotiation of the Canada-U.S. trade deal. There's intensive dialogue happening in real time and so we are going to tuck ourselves into the

broader plan and obviously not get ahead of them. We want to be aligned with the Prime Minister to maximize impacts on Americans and minimize impacts on Canadian workers and families. Uh, lastly minister, I mean, yeah, this Ben, I just say what, when this was happening, when he imposed this threat, this, this doubling of the tariff, the legislature was dealing with two bills before the house. The first was to end inter-provincial trade. So we could become one strong Canadian economy, $200 billion of economic growth. And the second thing was a bill to unlock our critical minerals. It doesn't take 15 years to build a mine,

the second slowest in the world. So I'm talking about- That's what I wanted to talk to you lastly, Minister. I want to talk about the passage of Bill 5 and sort of the reaction by some, especially in First Nations quarters, who are saying out loud that direct action against and these sorts of developments are on the table. What's your government's position on

that? Look, we brought forth legislation to get our critical resources to market. If Ontario and Canada doesn't end the needless delay, the fact that it takes 1520 years to do anything like if we don't have ambition, if we don't step it up, we are literally enabling the most oppressive regimes on earth to win the day. I mean, honest to God, Oh, listen, I co sign that minister, minister, I co sign that I'm just, if, if, if there's a landmine in front of you, I'm asking how do you sidestep it? Or how do you turn somebody who is currently in opposition to this into an ally? How do we get there?

I think there's two things. I mean, the first is the understanding of the problem that's before us. Cause not all politicians in this province are able to accept the problem that it takes too long. We got to move with speed. Even the federal liberals accept that premise. The second thing is we got to do it in partnership.

You ask how, we ensure there is equity, sharing, royalties on the table. We put a program in place that ensures $3 billion for Indigenous communities to buy in, to help own the projects. We have committed to respect fully the duty to consult. The Minister of Indigenous Affairs, the

Premier, all of us are committing to consulting as we build out the action plan. I understand change is difficult. I understand change is difficult. I respect fully the duty to consult and the Minister of Indigenous Affairs, the Premier, all of us are committing to consulting as we build out the action plan. I understand change is difficult and I appreciate their perspectives. It is the duty of governments to

listen and to meaningfully consult. We're going to do that. What we're not going to do is allow delay to continue to paralyze Ontario and Canada's resource sector that has sat on the sidelines for too long. I want to create 250,000 jobs. Our premier is determined to give us that competitive advantage. And if we want to fight Trump, we want to have soft power in these negotiations, we've got to have a credible plan to get our resources to market. So you're right.

Yeah. You've got to do it in battle in partnership. And we really see that as a strength. So, so what, what is your message to First Nations groups, environmental groups who have been critical, those who've said the duty to consult should have happened before the passage of the bill, not after? Is the message today that your door is open and how, again, specifically on if they have any issues with the bill itself, or is the government open to opening it back up and, and tweaking it in, in ways that would satisfy whatever their criticisms might be.

I think the principal message is we want to build in partnership. We want to do these things together. And we recognize how important partnership is. We know the consultation is fundamental to getting any of these projects, right? Everything we've done in the ministry of energy mind, let me speak for my own little, my own world. Every transmission line, all the nuclear, the small modular, everything we are doing, we're doing it in partnership with indigenous leaders. Those big transmission lines, 50-50 partnership.

We're talking billion dollar investments. They own it. And so I just think like, look, I understand it's a, you know, a challenging moment. We're gonna get through this. We're gonna work with them in good faith. We're going to listen. We're going to spend the summer consulting because the way the system works is you, you, you've drafted legislation that you consult on it and make sure the government, the crown discharges. Well, minister, I hope you're able to, I hope you're able to get everybody on board on side. Cause

like you, I believe that it's time to get this province firing on all cylinders and bring every community along in that success. So thank you very much for your time today. So much, Ben. All right, so we're gonna take your calls on the other side of this break. What happens if direct action hits the Ring of Fire? Don't go anywhere, this is the Ben Mulroney Show.

Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thank you so much for spending a bit of your Thursday with us. So before the break, we were speaking with Ontario Energy Minister Stephen Lecce. And I was asking him about the pushback that his government has been receiving in certain quarters over the passage of Bill five. That's the bill that will allow the government to in their words, in their estimation, unlock the potential of the ring of fire, the critical minerals bring them to bring them to market and speed up the process by which those sorts of initiatives can become reality.

And in a number of circles, most notably First Nations and some environmentalists, they're saying the time for diplomacy is over. It is now time for we direct action is now on the table. So think, you know, blockades and who knows what else we've seen it before in the province of Ontario, we've seen it across this country over the course of generations. And, you know, people like myself are hoping that we can get find a way to get to a yes before any of those things become a possibility because there's a lot of money to be unlocked there. And if there's a lot of possibility because there's a lot of money to be unlocked there and if there's a lot of money there's a lot of wealth and everybody should participate and hopefully that's the incentive but I want to hear what you have to say at 416-870-6400

or 1-888-225-TALK. If they start protesting and blocking roads whoever they might be how would you like the police to handle it? I think that's when the rubber's gonna meet the road, right? If people, if a group blockades and protests and decide they want to express their will that way, at some point the police are gonna come in and what happens then?

And I wanna hear from you. So let's bring Scott into the conversation. Scott, welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show and happy Thursday to you. Happy Thursday, Ben. Correct me if I'm wrong. We live in a democracy, correct? Oh, yes. And we elected a government and gave them a mandate to go ahead with this development.

Yeah, no, all true. I mean, listen, there's some nuance there. I want to be fair. I'm not going to tow a party line and I'm not going to say one side's completely right. There's no white hats and black hats, right? The government also has a duty to consult with various people's most notably, like I said, First Nations. And we're going with this is that who elects the other parties that are involved? I mean, you're talking billions of dollars and you know we always talk about you know we get what we pay for with government where you know some government and elected officials don't have education they don't have the knowledge and you know now we're pushing for you know smarter people in government to run it as a business.

Well, and then we're kowtowing to somebody that, you know, has their own clear mandate of no. Well, not necessarily. Listen, I'm choosing, Rick Scott, I'm choosing right now to be optimistic, to believe that there that there is a pathway to get everybody to yes, or enough people to yes. And that's, look, but that's part of the political process is inviting people in who aren't your natural allies to participate in that development. And that's part of the job is creating coalitions. And if you're gonna go alone all the time, you're gonna have pushback and friction.

Some of it illegal action, by the way, I'm not suggesting it's anyone's right to blockade a road. But I'm just saying, look, if they are, if they are telegraphing that this is going to be an issue, then it's incumbent on those who want this vision to be enacted of unlocking the potential of the ring of fire. It's incumbent upon them to figure out how to bring those people to the table and bring them on board. That's all I'm saying, but I appreciate the insights. And let's, let's ask Rick what he thinks about this. Hi, interesting topic. Yeah. Yeah, I'm for the having a fair negotiations. But we can't be held hostage all the time. I mean, where do we pay the reconciliation, all the money and all that? Where does that come from? Is that fairy dust at all? Or it comes from taxes that we pay and we got to use our resources like the right way.

Yeah. Okay. The right way. Like I say partnership, but if let's say 10 people protest and then they shut down everything, I'm totally, totally sad because as a taxpayer, I'm tired of this. Yeah. Let's get up a partnership. Yeah. Okay. And this is the way we have to do it, to go against the Americans.

We have to use our own resources. That's what I'm hoping for. And by the way, Rick, from what I understand, and I'm not gonna present as an expert on this, but I've read enough that sort of, it's not First Nations writ large that have a problem with this bill. There are a number that are in support. So it's, but they are, listen, they're giving the government warning.

Like we can see the iceberg ahead, right? We're on the Titanic. We can see the iceberg ahead. We've been given a warning and it's about how we adapt to that changing circumstance. My hope, like I said, I'm optimistic in this moment is that we can get every enough people on board that these this opposition does not present a road bump or a choke point in getting these critical minerals out of the ground and to market. Who do we have next? We've got Dan, Dan, thanks so much for calling in. Hey, good morning, Ben. What will happen if there's any

sorts of protests. Yeah. And I'll tell you exactly what will happen. As we've seen for the past decade or two across Canada and flambor Ontario and DC is that as long as you're an indigenous or minority or visible minority, nothing will happen. The cops won't do anything and they have a mandate from the government to not touch anybody. But if you're white, they will arrest you for being a peaceful person. I don't know if that's going to fly. I don't know if there's I don't know. Listen, I don't want any listen, if somebody blockades the road, that might be given a little bit of time, but at some point, they're going to back up the paddy wagon and take them all out, let the court settle it. That's that's my estimation. But but we're not there yet. We're not there yet. But

I do appreciate you pulling out your crystal ball. Who's next? We've got Oh, we got Rob Rob, thanks for calling the Ben Mulroney show. How are you? I'm great. I'm sort of of the mind of your just last caller that I'm sick of people tiptoeing around protesters and the rest of us paying the price of a very vocal minority forcing us into certain positions. If my friends and I were to block a road or whatever, we would be arrested very quickly and this all has to come to an end. Everyone has to be treated equally. I don't care what group you're from. I don't care if you're Greenpeace. I don't care if you're an indigenous group. If you are breaking the law, you need to be held accountable. And look, and I agree with you fundamentally, if every single group

that has a grievance is allowed to protest and take over public spaces and take over roads with impunity and no pushback from police services, then we're gonna cease to exist as a city and indeed a province. I mean, at some point, rules have to matter. And I hope we don't get to that point, but you know, and I will say, look, the OPP is not the Toronto Police Service and they're not, they don't,

they're completely different beasts. So I, as I look at the protests that have taken over the city of Toronto, and it seems like the the the at least the powers that be that run the police have no desire to allow their police officers to do their jobs. I don't know that that's the case with the OPP we're going to have to see. But thanks for that. We have time for one more cam. Welcome to the show.

Then we made a mistake with the premier's meeting, not inviting the hereditary chiefs to be at the table. The hereditary chiefs, as we've seen in the past, have a say in this and then it's passed down to the band chiefs. Yeah. So that was our first missed opportunity. There is a negotiation that can take place. The that I believe as a whole and the benefits, if we have to build, say a pipeline and go nine kilometers around what they're trying to protect, then so be it. Yeah. Yeah.

This is the way that we have to operate. And this is the way that we should be operating. Well, of all. What really worries me then though is, we're concentrating on the indigenous. The premier of BC that said, nope, no more pipelines. And he's over in Japan. He wants our stuff. But he said no to oil pipelines. Yeah. I don't know that he has a mandate to say that. He won a razor thin majority, uh, and a whole bunch of people in that province voted conservative for the very first time a few writings Flip one way or the other and Chris Eby is in opposition So I don't know that he has the public support to say that I think he's trying to placate some of the people in

his coalition that perhaps thought that he was Swinging too far towards what is generally happening in Canada, which is a consensus towards building these, these big national energy projects. So I think he's trying to keep that coalition together. But yeah, I don't know that Chris Eby would be the one hold out if every other province in the country was getting with the program. I don't know that Chris Eby wants to be that guy, but I'd love to ask him. I'd love to ask him. Anyway, guys, thank you so much for the call. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney

show. A couple of months ago, a friend of mine asked me if I would help out with a fundraiser for her daughter's school. And so I was introduced to Rosedale Heights School of the Arts. It's a public school in the city of Toronto, it's run by the TDSB. And I was impressed. First of all, I didn't know that there were art schools specifically run by the TDSB. There might be more.

This is the only one I've been introduced to. I spent a couple of hours at the school. I saw some of the art that these kids are churning out. It is amazing. I heard some performances. I talked to some students and I talked to some parents. And I found out that years ago, decades ago, the principal was responsible for taking

what was a traditional TDSB public school and converting it to a school for the arts. And since that day the principal has been at that school. He's been there longer than principals typically stay at schools but in my estimation it's a unique school that has requires unique circumstances. And the TDSB is sending him out to pastor, despite the love that the students have for him, despite the respect that the parents have for him, they are moving ahead or trying to move ahead at this point with getting rid of the guy who is responsible for this gem within the TDSB. So here to talk about this and the circumstances

surrounding his forced leave is Tasha Carradine. She is the parent of a student at the school, vice chair of the school's advisory council, journalist, as well as her daughter Zara, who started a petition to help save the principal's job. To the both of you, I say good morning and welcome. Good morning, Ben. Good morning. Okay, so I did my best to tell the story from my perspective. Please fill in the blanks that

you think the people listening need. Okay, I'll start. Barry Sketchley is the principal that you're referring to, Ben, and he has been at the school for 33 years. He was the subject of a profile just a couple of years ago by CTV about the amazing changes he made to the school. And what's really important is also the very inclusive atmosphere that it has for students in the arts. And what's happening is there's a policy at the TDSB that allows the board to move principals after five years.

It's called the principal transfer policy. Okay, well, he's been there for 33. Why would they be invoking it now? We feel they're invoking it for political reasons because he's opposed to some of the policies of the TDSB. And that's why the parents are taking a stand and the students too. So the policy that I think you're referencing

is one that I learned of from a parent at that fundraiser where I was told that back in the day, it was in order to be admitted to this school, one had to audition or at least that was part of the admission process. One had to audition in some way, shape or form. And that in the name, I guess of equity was removed for in favor of a lottery system. Is that right? Yes.

It hasn't quite worked out the way that it was intended to. It has brought students to the school of many backgrounds and actually people in my class who are able to improve who had passion for the arts who previously weren't given opportunities to explore that. But it has also allowed the admittance of students who just don't want to be there and who literally come to school and complain and say their parents forced them to go there or they go there

because their friends go there and they skip and they don't have any passion for the arts. And they elect their electives at random. So it's diluting the value of what this school was all about. Yeah, it what it's done. The lottery is what this school was all about. Yeah. What it's done, the lottery is a centrally administered program. What Barry Sketchley had implemented was a policy where it wasn't even an audition. Kids had to express interest, but he met with them. He reviewed every application individually. What that meant was that kids got in who really had a passion, even if they had no prior background. And one example from Regent Park, which is an underserved, underprivileged area,

kids would get into our school because Barry would review their applications. This year, one of my colleagues on the Student Advisory Council said she spoke to someone from Regent Park, an educator, who said of the 15 kids who applied, only one got in, and they're all from minority backgrounds, because now the school has no ability to actually talk to them and individually see if there are kids who should get a chance. They're just administered by the TDSB centrally. And this lottery, Barry has opposed the lottery.

Our principal opposed it, and we believe that is one of the reasons that they are trying to put them out to pasture, as you put it, Ben. So Zara, talk to me about this petition that you put forth and tell me what this principle means to you as a student. Personally, it means a lot to me. Our school even has actual merch of Mr. Sketchley. We have tote bags and buttons with his face on it. And during a lot of spirit weeks, we have little events like find the sketchly, like

little cutouts of him with different hats. It's really cute. He has the atmosphere he's created at our school, like my mom said, is really inclusive of both LGBTQ plus students as well as neurodiverse kids. And as someone who identifies with both of those, I feel safer at Rosedale than I have at any other school from like the typical like bullying or just isolation from other students. And because of this, the petition I started and I am not the only one who deserves a credit for it. One of my friends specifically named Maximus, they helped me put the petition out all over the school. During that day,

we didn't have any Wi-Fi, so they couldn't really do any of their classes. So they literally went the whole morning and gathered almost 300 signatures from all over the school. But after finding out about this, Mr. Sketchley stopped us from collecting any more signatures. And he just denied that there was any way to get rid of him. Yeah. And he just denied that. Yeah, he's very, he's very modest that way. He doesn't want to advocate for his job. No, but that's your, your advocating for his job. So in the few remaining minutes that we have, Tasha, what's, what's next for this, this, um, this drive to keep Mr. Sketchley's job? So all the parents have been notified of this possible situation.

There's a meeting on Monday of the trustees of the TDSB, a special meeting they are having where they're going to be reviewing the principal transfer policy for all schools, and they will have to vote on this. And the superintendents will present them with choices. Our goal is to prevent Barry from being on that list. And if he's on the list to tell the trustees, they should not vote in favor of that. And to not remove him

from our school because there's no valid reason. Almost 80% of the kids are on the honor roll at this school. Wow. It is. Yeah. Kids are doing extremely well. If it's not broke, don't fix it. So we are asking anyone who has a connection to Rosedale Heights School of the Arts, alumni, parents, you can actually email your trustee. You can find the list of these people. I'll give you the email address. It's on.tdsb.ca. Just Google that. You will find the list. You can find your trustee, send them a note and say, this is the wrong thing to do. And we will make our voices. We've emailed the Minister of Education as well, and the Director of Education too.

Look, not a week goes by on this show that I don't have to deliver what I feel is disappointing news about the performance, the policies, the vision of the TDSB. And this week, I think I've had a number of those stories. So it's sad that they're doing this sort of thing as opposed they're, they're doing this sort of thing, as opposed to focusing on what they should be doing, which is supporting teachers, supporting students. And, and here you have a man who's made it his passion in life to build something

really unique and really special. And, and these trustees, it looks like their goal is to just muck it all up to the two of you. I say thank you for joining me. I really appreciate it. I wish you the very best on this mission. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time. Thanks. Bye. My goodness. I mean, how disappointing. That school was amazing. Absolutely. I mean, I couldn't believe it existed and it existed because of this man. And for them to give him such an unceremonious departure, they should be ashamed of themselves. Put you in there for a reason, Speed. Mom, just say yes! Get back here! This is for your own good!

Rick and Morty, new season, Sundays on Adult Swim. Stream on StackTV. Get your mouth rounded.