The Ben Mulroney Show - Franklin the deadly turtle? What in the heck????

Episode Date: December 3, 2025

GUEST:   Michael Oren / former Israeli ambassador to the United States Guest: Craig Baird, Host of Canadian History Ehx If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Get better answers to tough questions. BlueJ. AI for tax experts. Welcome, everybody. We made it to Wednesday. It's the 3rd of December 2020. Thank you so much for spending a little bit of your day with us. It's been a great one so far.

And look, if you ever wanted an example of the difference between Canadian conservatives and American conservatives, I mean, this is the time. Right now, 2025 is the time. I know that a lot of people out there, if you are to the left of the conservatives, then you just view everybody to your right as one big thing. and they're all a problem to be overcome. If you can just take off that outrage hat for a moment and just look south of the border and ask yourself, do you ever see anything like this by Canadian Conservatives?

The answer is no. The answer is no. As you know, or maybe you don't know, that the amount of drugs that are coming in to the United States from Venezuela, it's significant. It's significant. And because of that, the U.S. government has declared war on narco traffickers. Like they've actually said it's a war.

It's not a war on drugs. It's a war on drug traffickers. And over the past few months, you've seen a buildup, a military buildup off the coast of Venezuela. The largest aircraft carrier in the American fleet is off the coast of Venezuela. Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary or war secretary, depending on who you're talking to, has said, This is our neighborhood. The Western Hemisphere is our neighborhood and we are going to protect it. And we've seen the videos of these nighttime raids, of these boats that are trying to get to the United States and they're just exploding because the Americans are just shutting this thing down.

A lot of outrage over that, a lot of concern that this could spill over into a larger conflict. There's a mobilization of the army in Venezuela, preparing for what they think might be an invasion at some. point. Who knows? Very, very serious stuff. But among that serious stuff is some very unserious stuff. And over the weekend, or just a yesterday, rather, I'm sorry, Pete Hagseth, the war secretary, posted a meme on his social media. And it's got Canadians feel in a certain way. We take great pride in all the little things we do. And one of the things that we have done as a country is we lay claim to Franklin the turtle

and the children's books you know Franklin and Franklin's normally doing lovely kidlike stuff on the covers of these books well Pete Hagseth posted what looks like the cover of a Franklin book but is decidedly not a Franklin book

it is Franklin dressed up in military gear hanging out the side of a military helicopter shooting bazookas at narco-terrorists. And the title of the book is Franklin Target's Narco-Terrorists. Okay, sure. Well, the author and the creator of Franklin, None Too Happy, who posted himself,

Franklin the Turtle is a beloved Canadian icon who has inspired generations of children and stands for kindness, empathy, and inclusivity. We strongly condemn any denigration, violent, or unauthorized use of Franklin's name or image which directly contradicts these values. Show me a Canadian politician who would do something like this. That's my point.

Show me a Canadian politician who would do anything like this. It's interesting. Meanwhile, I think a Sabrina Carpenter's song was used in one of these memes. She's none too happy about it either. But the Defense Secretary posted this book cover. And it is what it is. But as we're laughing about it, as I said, very, very serious implications for what's going on in and around the country of Venezuela. Because I think if I'm not mistaken, Nicholas Maduro, the dictator, the socialist dictator of Venezuela, has been calling up his reserves and getting them ready for putting them on a war footing and preparing for this, what they think could be an invasion.

I don't know if that's going to happen. I think some of it might just be bluster by the U.S. government trying to let them know that these incursions into the United States, and especially with the drugs that are flowing in, will not be tolerated. So we'll have to see. Yeah, back to Sabrina Carpenter. She's condemning the Trump administration for using her song in a video promoting ice raids. And she's calling the clip evil and disgusting. And so, yeah, again, find me a Canadian politician does anything like that, and we can talk. Here's a question for you.

Is it illegal to spoil Christmas? That's the question. There was a Santa Claus parade in a small town in Ontario. And people who were out there with their kids wanting to experience this Santa Claus parade might have looked over at a house on the parade route. and they would have seen four very colorful pieces of paper in the window of this house. And on those four pieces of paper, orange, sort of pink, green, and yellow were the words, Santa is fake. Santa isn't real.

Your parents are Santa and your family buys your presents. And the police spoke with the homeowner after the fact. and the signs were removed, but they confirmed the messages were not illegal because they were on private property and protected by freedom of expression. Now, this was in the town of Brantford, and they drew about 30,000 spectators, and social media reaction to the signs was largely negative, calling the mean-spirited. One person said, what kind of psycho post this along the Santa Claus parade route? It's vile and disgusting. Now, legal experts note that while it's offensive, such signs don't meet the threshold for criminal charges or hate. speech. Yeah, there's nothing hateful about it. It's just, it's just mean.

Any bylaw action would face charter challenges. And look, you know, we live in a world and we cover it on this show where there are people who say things that are just, they run counter to, you know, the classical Canadian traditions. Classical Canadian traditions. There are people who denigrate Christianity, right? We're living in a world where Catholic churches have been burnt to the ground and no one seems to care. And so there are people who are up in arms over something like this and they think to themselves, is this another one of those attacks?

Is this an attack on Christmas the way that we people seem to think have been, have happened in the past? I don't think that that's this. I don't like this. I think this is mean-spirited. I think this is deliberately antagonistic. But I honestly think it's just a bad joke. I think this guy was trying to make a joke

and it just fell flat because apparently when the police went to his door and they expressed concern that maybe this was inappropriate, the guy took him down. And so I'm choosing to live in a world where this doesn't upset me. I mean, it disappoints me a little bit.

I'm sorry that if any parent, had to have tough conversations with their kids. And it's not what you want when you get all excited to bring your kids down at the Santa Claus parade. And maybe this guy even did in fact ruin things for some families. And I'm really sorry that happened. But because you took it down so quickly and didn't try to make a political statement out of it, I genuinely believe that this guy thought it was funny. And, you know, I throw my hands up.

I mean, I don't want to make everything a big political issue. I'm not going to be that guy. If I make something of political issues, because I believe it's a political issue. But in this case, I'm not going to scream to high heaven that this something bad should happen to this guy. Something bad is probably happening to this guy anyway if he thought that was funny.

He's probably living a really, probably a miserable guy. He might be a little bit of a misanthrope. And in which case, you know, karma will take care of him, I suppose. But even that, I'm not wishing that on this guy. You know, he probably just made a bad joke. Just like Pete Hegseth made a bad joke, although Pete Hengseth, I don't think really cares about whether or not he offended Canadians

and our love of Franklin. Now, had he done it with Cayu, that would have been different. Had he done it with Cayenne, I think we would all be on board with it because I don't think there's a single human being alive who likes Cayu. Cayu is a terrible, awful thing that we put out into the world and I'm sorry for it. So I would say next time, Pete, next time you want to make a point, everyone can get behind it if you use Cayu as the bad guy. That's a, you know, a little piece of advice from me to you, Secretary Hegsteth.

All right, coming up, we're going to be talking about a two-state solution. And we've got a very special guest straight from Israel who's in Toronto for a very important debate. Michael Oren joins us next right here on the Ben Mulrooney Show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. One of the great things about living in a city like Toronto is there are all sorts of cultural events that happen in a big city like Toronto that you can't enjoy elsewhere. And one of the things that happens here that is a high watermark for me and has been since 2008 are the monk debates. And this is a coming together of great people to debate hot button issues, thought-provoking topics. And those conversations end up on social media and on YouTube.

And they make the rounds around the world. The very first one was in 2008. It was be it resolved that the world is a safer place with Republicans in the White House. I went to that debate. I am now very pleased and honored to be on the advisory committee on the. monk debates. We help pick the topics. We help suggest the guests. And I'm so pleased to be part of this wonderful organization. Tonight's debate is hot button of all hot button. The topic tonight is be it resolved. It is in Israel's national interest to support a two-state solution.

And the guests are second to none. Arguing in favor of the resolution is a former Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmerd. His debate partnered Sipi Livni, who served as Israel's Justice and Foreign Minister. And arguing against the resolution is historian, former Israeli ambassador to the United States, and Deputy Minister in the Prime Minister's Office. Michael Oren, I'm so pleased to be joined by Michael right now. Michael, thank you so much for joining us on the Ben Mulroney Show. And welcome to Toronto. I said, good to be here, Ben. Thank you for hosting me so graciously.

Hello. I'm very pleased to have you. And I should tell you, I recently just a last, just a few days ago, I returned from my very first trip to Israel. I'm so pleased to have gone. We spent some time in the Knesset. We spent some time at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, where it was clear to me based on our conversations with members of the government, as well as other politicians, that, Tell me if this is fair to say that while a two-state solution is probably in the offing at some point, the general consensus in Israel today is it is not on the table for most politicians in the near term. I would put a harder point.

Let's be clear. I don't represent the government. I'm not in this government. That was a never a member of a party that's ever part of any party that's currently part of this government. but I guess for the majority of the people of Israel. I think that a two-state solution now for the foreseeable future is not just out of the question. It presents a very significant physical danger to the state of Israel. Okay.

So I think that's two of people who are centrist, even left of center. So what has changed, and some of it's self-evident, but we can talk about it anyway, what has changed to take even, as you said, the most, the most, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. biggest doves in the country, the biggest, those who used to view that as the quickest path to peace and turn them into people who say, not on my watch, not anytime soon? Well, there are three main reasons. One is Palestinians don't want a two-state solution. They have turned it down consistently in 1937, 47, 2007, 2000, 2001, 2008. I can go on, but the fact that the Palestinians hold the world record as a people who have turned down

a two-state solution offer, and I just didn't turn them down. They turned down with mass violence that killed many thousands of people. And that was true in the year 2000, we offered a Palestinian state, and we got the second in the second intifada, yeah, yeah. With suicide bombers. Then in 2005, Israel pulled out of Gaza and basically gave the Palestinians an independent state in Gaza. And what did they do with it? They turned it into a terror state that has resulted again in thousands of death. So Israelis, we're not stupid. We see that this doesn't work. And so that's the main reason.

Palestinians don't want the two-state solution. A recent Palestinian poll showed that two-thirds of the Palestinian people do not want the two-state solution. In the world, we understand that. The second reason is you get a Palestinian state, it basically falls apart. It's a Palestinian state. Who is going to run this state, man? Is it going to be Mahmoud Abbas, who's despised? by his own people, is it going to be Hamas?

And by the way, if elections were held tomorrow, again, another Palestinian poll shows, Hamas would win. Palisansans are by the huge majority are against disarming Hamas. Can you believe this? Yeah. They don't want to take the guns away.

So exactly who's going to run this state? Okay. The state live in peace with us. There you got. That's just a part of the answer, okay? I could go on. Okay, so, but let's bring in the fact, the fact that this debate is happening in Canada,

and Canada was among a handful of countries who just a few months ago, recognized a Palestinian state. In the city of Toronto, our city government raised the Palestinian flag on the 37th anniversary of the Palestinian Declaration of Independence, whatever that means.

And so another thing I learned in my visit in speaking with Israelis is they're none too happy with Canadians or Canada. And our position on whether or not we recognize an independent Palestinian state does not matter in the math occurring in Israel? We can recognize as many states as we want. That doesn't make an iota of difference for the policy and decision makers in Israel. It makes an iota difference to the

Palestinians. Yeah. And what that decision did was cause more Palestinian deaths. That's all it did. Because what happened immediately after Canada recognized the Palestinian state is Hamas strengthened its position at the negotiating table. And so the war, it basically prolonged the war. Well, congratulations for doing that. I'm sure there are also interesting domestic reasons why the Canadian government felt compelled to make that decision because it had absolutely no impact whatsoever on a Palestinian state which doesn't exist or in Israel's, you know, Israel's willingness to accept a Palestinian state or even on Palestinian's willingness to accept the two-state solution, which they patently don't. What it did do was hardened Thomas's position and prolong the war.

It's a tragedy for the Palestinians. So tell me, you're going to be engaged in a debate tonight with two people who probably believe their position as much as you believe yours and part of getting ready for a debate is preparing for the arguments of the other side. So do me a favor and put on the hat of somebody who would be on the opposite side of this proposition. What are some of the arguments that may come your way tonight supporting the idea of a two-state solution? So these are positions we've heard over the course not just of the last year or two years, but of the course of decade. And I've been involved in the peace process

since the early years of the Oslo peace process, the Yataka, I was an advisor to that government. And the arguments are these. Israelis cannot, there has to be some hope for the future. Israel cannot just constantly be in a conflict with the Palestinians. It doesn't want to occupy another people. How can you occupy another people in the 21st century? The occupation undermines Israel's foreign relations.

It undermines even relationships between diaspora Jews and Israel. There's an immense moral, political, diplomatic cost to maintaining the status quo in what the West calls the West Bank, we call it the D in Samaria. And that's going to be the major, major argument here, and that the whole situation is not sustainable. And our counterbarical would be, yes, it's a very difficult, costly situation. But the alternative was far, far worse. And, you know, one of the things that I learned in university was before Germany could ever

reenter the community of nations as an equal and as a trusted partner and ally, there had to be an extensive denotification process of every aspect of that society. And knowing what goes on in schools for the youngest amongst the Palestinians in Gaza, and it should be noted, a lot of that funding comes from UN, part of the UN, which is really disgusting. It feels to me that before someone like you would get on board with looking towards a two-state solution, a version of that denotification would have to happen in Gaza. The undoing of generations of misinformation that's being drilled into the heads of young men and women in that region would have to occur before a two-state solution would be possible. But it's not just in Gaza. It's also in Judaism Mary of the West Bank.

School children in West Bank are taught, not that they have to kill Jews, but how how to kill Jews. And the Palestinian Authority actually pays salaries to the terrorists who have killed Jews. So it's not just in Gaza. It's the Palestinian people generally. And it's interesting that these polls that I'm mentioning about the opposition to the two-state solution, support for Hamas, are much, much higher in the West Bank than they are in Gaza. You can't ignore that. Michael, we're going to have to leave it there.

We can just come. I got to leave it there, but I want to let everybody know that if they are even remotely interested in what we've been talking about, the monk debates live streams this. So I urge people go online, search up monk debate. and if this is something of interest to you, you will absolutely be able to find it. I promise you, it is a thought-provoking debate. I cannot wait to be in attendance tonight and hopefully shake your hand this evening.

Michael Lauren, thank you so much for being here. Bye, ma'am. Thank you. Thank you to Monk. Bye-bye. All right. Coming up after the break, why the NHL doesn't play on Christmas Day. The holiday season is full of choice. choices, cranberry sauce or gravy, skip rent or skip Christmas.

I'm Lieutenant Colonel John Murray of the Salvation Army. When poverty gives someone an impossible choice, your donation is their answer. Donate now at Salvation Army.ca. At Edmonton Cabota, they power Alberta's hardest workers, from the farmers who feed the people to the crews who build communities. Whether you're running orange in the field, yard, or job site, the Edmonton Cabota teams here with dependable sales, service, and parts to keep you moving. From compact tractors and RTVs to trackloaders and excavators,

Cabota delivers performance that works as hard as you do. Because at Edmonton, Cabota, they don't just sell machines. They stand behind the people who run them. We are Cabota. You are our family. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. Every now and then, somebody asks me, our question, or says something, and I think about it for a second and realize, oh, my gosh, that's true.

And I have no idea why. Christmas Day, we have football games from the NFL. Christmas Day. We have NBA games. There's a lot to watch in terms of sports. But there are no NHL games. Why? I don't know.

But somebody who does know is our next guest because class is in session. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome. Craig Baird, host of Canadian History X. Craig, welcome to the show. Oh, thanks for having me. Okay, so you've got the answer, man. Lay it out for us. Why don't we play NHL games on Christmas Day?

Well, you know, they do it in other leagues, but not in the NHL, and they haven't for about 50 years now. So the last NHL Christmas game was played back in 1971, but actually has a very long history. The first Christmas game was played between the Toronto St. Patts and the Montreal Canadians in 1920 and Toronto won that 5-4. But then it wasn't until 1924 that the Christmas games returned. And there were two games this time, Montreal beat Boston 5-0.

Yeah, they did. Hamilton defeated Toronto 8-1. And then the Christmas games returned in 1926. And from that point on became kind of an annual traditional. and actually featured many milestones. Sid Howe recorded a hat trick in 1930, while Harry Lumley became the first goaltender to reach 150 wins, which he did in a Christmas game. And in 1956, Gordy Howe had the biggest game of his career on Christmas when he recorded six points. But eventually, people didn't like playing hockey on Christmas. And the last Christmas game was

played in 1971 between the Los Angeles Kings and the California Golden Seals. And the last Christmas goal was scored by Stan Gilbertson. And in 1972, the NHL no longer scheduled Christmas Day games, and then in 1973, also no longer scheduled games for Christmas Eve. Now, the Christmas Day games, like I mentioned, were very unpopular among players, coaches, and officials. And with how much power the Players Association has now and collective bargaining and all that, there is no chance that we will ever see a Christmas Day game again. But kind of a cool thing from our history. Yeah, but it's so odd. I mean, look, the unions in the NBA are just as strong as in the NHB.

Shell, same thing with the NFL and they play. I don't know why they wouldn't want that. It's a winter sport during the winter months, the most winter day of the year of Christmas Day is winter. Why wouldn't you want our winter sport played on that day? It's very, very odd.

A little bit disappointed. I mean, I wasn't disappointed before I didn't, because I hadn't thought about it, but now I'm thinking about it and it makes me a little sad. Well, it's a great way to spend Christmas, too, watching some hockey games. But because it's been gone for so long, I just the players probably wouldn't agree to it.

But I think it would be great. You know, you'd get amazing viewership for these games because everybody's home watching a hockey game. But, yeah, I don't see it happening anytime soon. It's too bad. It's too bad. All right. Well, let's talk about yet again, one of these stories that every Canadian should know, that most don't. And very glad that we're highlighting this person.

Someone's saying, Canada's greatest soldier. The greatest soldier in our history, arguably, Tommy Prince. Talk to us about Tommy Prince. Absolutely. Arguably, probably our greatest soldier, like he said, and he's one of our most decorated soldiers in Canadian history. So he was born in 1915 in Manitoba, and he actually served in both the Second World War and Korea. And just had legendary exploits in the Second World War was an incredible soldier. He was awarded many medals, but he was also awarded the Military Cross and the American Silver Star. And he's one of only three Canadians to receive both those medals

during the Second World War. He was also the most highly decorated member of what was known as the Devil's Brigade. But ironically, when they made the movie in the 1960s, they completely wrote him out of it. There was only one small reference to a character named Chief. And some people think that might be a reference

to Tommy Prince, but he was an incredible soldier at the Devil's Brigade. Why would they have written him out of the story? I think the fact that he was indigenous probably played quite a bit into it. And the fact that the Americans made the movie so they kind of shifted the full to American soldiers and not on this incredible Canadian soldier who had just amazing missions

with the Devil's Brigade. Can you tell us a little bit about the Devil's Brigade? Yeah, so the Devil's Brigade was actually this force, kind of a commando unit that was formed during the Second World War, and it was to go in and accomplish tasks that the larger groups weren't able to. So it was a special force made up of the United States and Canadian soldiers, and they fought in Italy, they fought in France, and we're really concerned. kind of very legendary. I mean, I kind of think of them like the A team, you know, going into

these areas and helping the dirty dozen. The dirty dozen, exactly. That's awesome. Just an incredible force. And Tommy Prince was by far the most skilled of everybody. So he was, like you said, called Canada's greatest soldier for his skills and bravery as a scout and soldier in the wars. But then after the wars, he was unable to get any veteran benefits due to the fact that he was indigenous because at the time the Indian Act did not allow indigenous soldiers to go to the Legion because the Legion served alcohol and the Legion very much kind of went with this and the only way to apply for these benefits was through the Legion so he was unable to do that and then through his life he fell on hard times he eventually had to sell his war medals just to make ends

meat and he was somebody who was always trying to help other people he once saved a man drowning in the river in 1955 and then left before the news came along because he was just trying to help this man. Now, he died in 1977, mostly in poverty, but since his death, he has been honored heavily with schools and streets being named for him. And he was actually a finalist to be on the $5 bank note and lost out to Terry Fox, which, I mean, there's no shame in that. Yeah. Somebody who definitely would be an amazing person on our money. Absolutely. Well, let's take a listen to this week's Canadian History X that features Tommy Prince. Our way up the mountain, Tommy stopped his patrol. He would go on the rest of the

the way alone and his compatriots watched him move like a shadow in the night. Death greeted every German on his path that night as he took out every gunner and soldier in total silence. He completed his mission without raising a single alarm. By the break of dawn, every German gun pit along the route was neutralized. Only the ones on the top of the mountain remained and they had no idea that the devil's brigade were climbing the mountain in silence. Within hours, they ambushed and the mountain was in allied hands. But the Germans quickly mounted a counter-attack. And over the next few days, Prince and the Devil's Brigade fought hard to keep that mountain. And while they held the mountain, it came at a cost. The force was reduced to only 400 men. Tommy Prince deserved a

medal for what he had done in that mission. You could even argue he deserved the highest honor in the British Empire, the Victoria Cross. But he received no citation. no medal. His mission was classified, and honors such as medals would have compromised the devil's brigade. And that was okay because they weren't done yet. I mean, wow. And look, I remember on on Remembrance Day, the day after we were watching some videos of the city of Toronto doing land acknowledgments and black Canadian acknowledgments prior to any sort of ceremony, which rubbed a lot of people are the wrong way, including myself, given the fact that we have days that celebrate indigenous this and black Canadian that, we've got Black History Month, and we have one

day for Remembrance Day, and I pointed out that Indigenous Canadians and black Canadians have served honorably in our armed forces. And there is a way to have do it all without compromising this one day for our soldiers. We could have told the story of Tommy Prince on that day instead of a land acknowledgement, thereby honoring the sacrifice and the service of First Nations in our military. And we didn't do that.

Instead, we, you know, to me it was all so terribly done and it could have been so elegant and beautiful to remember our military by way of telling the story of Tommy Prince. And so I'm so glad that you've done that today, my friend. Well, I'm always happy to tell the story of Tommy. Prince. He's easily one of my favorite historical figures from our history.

It's so sad that his life ended in a way that wasn't befitting of the life that he led. He deserved far more. But, you know, when you pointed out that he saved a drowning man, and it shows, that's just who he was. The braver that he showed in battle and the braver that he showed to save someone he didn't know, it's just, he was just a good, strong, brave man and a great Canadian. Absolutely, without a doubt. All right, so tell me, how can people find the show? They can find the show by searching for Canadian HistoryX. That's EHX on all podcast platforms, or you can just listen on the Chorus Radio Network every single weekend. I am going to make sure that I listen to this episode this week, my friend. I really appreciate it. All the best.

We'll see you next week. See you next week. My name is Jordan, and I'd like to invite you to join me on the Canadian Gothic, a podcast covering stories of Canadian crime, mystery, and the offbeat. The Canadian Gothic blends the spirit of late-night talk radio with the depth of a documentary film and applies that approach to both developing stories in historical cases. So if you're drawn to the dark, mysterious, and offbeat, search for and subscribe to the video. Canadian Gothic wherever you find podcasts. You were listening to Canadian Gothic.