The Ben Mulroney Show - Friday political panel weighs in on bail reform and ask Ben whatever they want...

Episode Date: October 17, 2025

Guest: Warren Kinsella, Former Special Advisor to Jean Chretien and CEO of the Daisy Group  Guest: Chris Chapin, Political Commentator, Managing Principal of Upstream Strategy If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by the National Payroll Institute, the leader for the payroll profession in Canada, setting the standard of professional excellence, delivering critical expertise, and providing resources that over 45,000 payroll professionals rely on. Canada's oil sands produce the energy the world needs, but it's the benefits that flow to all parts of our country, like hundreds of thousands of jobs in oil and gas and along the supply chain,

and revenue to invest in roads, bridges, our national defense, and more. You see, we're building more than, a strong oil sands sector. We're helping to build a stronger Canada. We're Pathways Alliance, six of Canada's largest oil sands companies working together to help grow Canada's economy. Learn more at pathwaysalliance.ca.ca. the Ben Mulroney show. It's Friday, which means it's time for the Friday edition of this week in politics. Always love this panel, so please welcome to the show, Warren Kinsella, former advisor to Jean-Cretzanne, CEO of the Daisy Group, and Chris Chapin, political commentator

and managing principle of upstream strategies. To the both of you, I say, happy Friday. Happy Friday indeed, guys. Great. All right, let's start with you, Chris. I want to ask you about what you think about these proposed bail reform changes. I think it's a I think it's a good start then I feel like we've been talking about this on this show four months about the bail reform that's to come that's to come that's the comment you know yesterday's announcement was great but we're still wait to see what's in you know what is actually in the legislation when it comes next week so what's been said publicly what the prime minister talked about yesterday sounds great a great a great start you know checked all the boxes I thought he needed to check but I just I wish we didn't wait all summer for this. I will never understand why they couldn't have brought this forward what was so complicated right after the election. Well, I mean, Chris, they had to go get all those guns. They had to find all those police officers to stand behind the prime minister's last yesterday.

Like, I just, I don't know what the wait was for. Like, nothing, nothing in what he talked about yesterday sounded overly complicated. You know, it seemed pretty straightforward about what, you know, specifically the opposition, the conservatives have been calling for for months, if not, years from the liberal government. So maybe he just needed enough distance between himself and the prime minister to throw, you know, the former prime minister to throw him under the bus. Warren Kinsella, I'm one of my early criticisms of this prime minister was I didn't know

who he was or how he was going to work because he was, to a lot of us was an unknown quantity. I'm learning now as he does the job, the type of person he is, the type of leader he is. And he seems to be, he seems to follow a method. methodology. He seems to be deliberate and intentional and doesn't try to boil the ocean. Could this be that that we're seeing the first phase of a larger transformation of the criminal justice system into something far more pragmatic, far more cognizant of the rights of everyday Canadians? Well, I hope so. We all hope so. And, you know, as somebody who practices law, you know, what people's impression. I can tell you it's absolutely right. The one part of our criminal justice system that is a disaster is bail and bail reform. And there's all kinds of reasons for that,

like we've talked about before. But, you know, why is the prime minister doing this now? I think he's throwing a bone to the right because he's got some other things up his sleeve. You know, he does this. You know, he does this, what Clinton used to call triangular. So, you know, when we all think he's becoming a conservative, what does he do last night? He says to someone, well, yeah, if Benjamin and Yahoo comes to Canada, I'm going to have him arrest it, which, of course, the extremist on the left like. Yeah. So, you know, it could be some triangulation that he's doing here, where he felt he needed to shore up his right flank. But separate and apart from the ideology, Ben, this is clearly a huge problem.

We've got people who are on bail going out and, you know, recommitting and serious crimes, terrible crimes, murders, and rapes. And it's just not acceptable to anybody anymore, and we need to make some serious changes. And not just at the level of the criminal codes. The provinces need to commit more resources so the judges can know if they want to commit somebody to incarcerate them pending their bail hearing. They can do that. But right now, we've got the same. system is packed and often judges don't have a place to put the bad guy or the alleged bad guy. So Chris Chapin, if our prime minister is triangulating and every now and then he waxes

to the right and then he wanes to the left, where is he, which version of him are we seeing as it relates to counter tariffs? Mark Carney has ruled them out. I did a fireside chat with the Premier of Ontario, where he said, I hope the prime minister punches back and uses every tool at his disposal to keep this fight alive with the American president. Mark Carney has ruled that out. So what version of him are we seeing as it relates to our battle with Donald Trump? Well, first and foremost, I was in the room for your fireside chat. I thought you did a great job. Thank you. But on on that specifically, I think this is, this is, the part of the prime minister that comes the most natural to him.

I think, you know, if he's talking about economics, if he's talking about global trade, it's his personal political sweet spot. It's why the elected him in the first place, right? Like this was what made Mark Carney seem like the right guy to be the prime minister. I don't know if I agree with him, but I understand why he's saying no counter tariffs. Like they're trying to negotiate a deal.

They have kept it, you know, very quiet from Canadians. There's not been a lot of leaks. I think they've done a poor job communicating to Canadians how close we might be to a deal, how successful we might be with this deal, and what we might have to give up in this deal. But I think this is truly his kind of sweet, center, liberal spot that he really excels at. Yeah. Warren, what do you think? I mean, counter tariffs by Canada, if they're surgical, if they're laser-focused,

they can hurt one state or one, you know, one skew at. at the LCBO, but they don't have the impact that the American tariffs have on us. So is it really a tool? Is it really a tool worth even exploring? It is. And that's what, you know, I agree with Doug Ford and Eby and British Columbia and the other premiers who are saying Carney needs to get his elbows up again because it can work. You know, for example, if you look at what.

Tell me how. Well, you look at Ford when he made his threat about cutting off energy. supply to three different U.S. states, Lutnik, the Commerce Secretary, was on the phone right away saying, let's get together and see what we can work out. But that happened a few months

ago. Right now, for example, China has got Donald Trump's attention because they're refusing. They're talking about curbs on their rare earth exports. So this is critical minerals used on everything from smartphones to fighter jets.

And China is saying, no, We're going to fight you. We're going to use this counter-terriff or this countervailing measure to fight your tariffs and teach you a lesson. And the Americans are freaking out. And they're paying attention to that. We can do the same sort of thing in a segmented kind of surgical way, like a sniper action. But we're not doing that because the prime minister has just said to all the premiers, no. We're not going to do that.

We're going to see what we can work out. Okay, fine. Well, Dominic Blas has been down there so long. I think he's become a permanent residence in Washington. And they've come back, they've come back guys with nothing. We have nothing. So it's like at a certain point, you have to examine your strategy and say, is this working? And I think this sucking up the Donald Trump strategy has not work.

We have nothing to show for it. Look at what the Chinese are doing. Look what the Mexicans are doing. They're taking a much more targeted, aggressive approach, and it's working. Chris Chapin, do you share Warren Concella's assessment? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of what I was getting at on the communication side. I think Canadians are starting to grow really frustrated with the Prime Minister. And it's not helping when you have an announcement like this week where you see Stalantus pack up and move out of the country.

You know, it's not that we're not winning. We're losing. Like we are actively losing in this trade war with Donald Trump. There's nothing coming north of the border to replace what's going south of the border. Yeah. Yeah. And, but I, I, my fear, guys, and I'm so glad I'm not the guy calling the shots, my fear is if we did do that, that surgical strike that Donald Trump would just come and say, you know what, screw you for doing that to us. Here's another 15% on softwood lumber.

Yeah, but he's doing that already. Yeah, yeah. But he's doing it already, right? He did it. He added another 10% this week. Like, the present strategy is not working. It's not. I was prepared to, okay, fine.

He said at the end of August, we're going to lower elbows. You know, he had all those bizarre hockey metaphors that he used. I didn't understand a damn thing that he said. But he said, we're going to back off. He's going to drop our counter tariffs. Fine. It's now months later. Yeah.

We're coming up to November and we got nothing to show for it. So I'm saying, okay, well, you know, maybe going back to the previous approach where we're being a little bit tougher in the corners, maybe that's the way to go. All right. Well, guys, we're going to take a quick break, but up next, I know I'm going to regret this. I'm turning the microphone over to my guests. They're going to be asking me a couple of questions. We'll see how that goes.

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Hurry into your local Subaru dealership today for lease rates from 1.99% for 24 months on select models. And get great value that, you guessed it, come standard. Conditions apply. See dealer for details. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show and welcome back to Warren and Chris for our Friday edition of this week in politics. And we're doing something a little bit different because earlier this week I sat down for a fireside chat with the Premier of Ontario and he

well he started the fireside chat where I'm supposed to ask the questions with this And now it's time for Hey Ben I'm asking the questions now There we go All right so now it's time for Warren and Chris to ask me a question

Go ahead boys Well I'll go first I thought Ben you were quite evasive Are you going to run the mayor yes or no I didn't think I was evasive I thought it was quite direct I said I was having a great time doing my I said one day perhaps I would like to

if the situation presents itself but now is not that time I said look my show isn't even a year old the Ben Mulrudey show is still in diapers I've got to I'm still caring for my little toddler here that's a no response I've never understood that

I must be missing that that political that politician chip how is that not a no How is that not definitive? I've got a different question, Warren, because it was going to be very similar to this, but, you know, you must, like, is this something growing up as the son of a prime minister or, you know, the kitchen table talk during Thanksgiving with your, with your sister? Like, were you guys practicing evading questions, a yes or no answer when you were children? Like, was that like my bedtime stories, you know, Chris, Chris, genuine, genuine question back to you. how is what I said so I can so I can be better next time how is what I said not definitive

I said one day and your answer to me just a minute ago you said one day well that could be next week no we teach politicians all the time when you say one day that could happen on Monday you could change your life okay see now now I see that I wasn't seeing it that way thank you very much I am not running for mayor in this upcoming election. Oh, well, that's too bad. Well, then if I can ask the follow-up, can I ask the follow-up? Of course you can.

If you were, you talked to people across this city, across this country on a daily basis. But when it comes to Toronto, what would you, you know, what do you think the biggest issues facing this city are? You know, we're going to have an election next year. Yeah. You know, what do you think that election should be about? I think, you know, the mayor certainly has some questions about her record. We've already got Bradford in the race.

I'm sure we'll see others. But, you know, what do you think, you know, from the callers you listen to and talk to on a daily basis? What do you think the biggest issues are that are facing this city? I think that we don't actually have here in the city of Toronto a good idea, a real idea as to how our money is spent. I think there are all sorts of pet projects that we don't know anything about that are costing us, God knows how much. And because of that, until we know that, every time the mayor says, well, we're going to have to raise your taxes again, I want to say, well, hold on a second, let's see what you're spending money on that you probably don't have to be spending money on before you come and get another pound of flesh from people who don't have any flesh left. I think a dollar, my personal political philosophy is generally speaking, not universally, generally speaking, a dollar earned by an individual is best spent by that individual. Not to say we don't need a robust social safety net to help those who need that help. But generally speaking, that is my default position. And I do not feel

like City Hall feels the same way. Well, Chris, that sounds like a politician's answer to me. Let me ask you, let me ask a question about that. If things are as dysfunctional and, you know, the city seems dirty and it feels like it's drifting, that didn't just all happen. on Olivia Chow's watch. There's no race yet. I mean, Brad Bradford said he's going to have his name on the ballot, but there's no race to be had at the moment. You're not allowed to be a candidate at the moment.

Should John Tory, who you know, who I know, you know, I think all of us like him, then do you think John Tori should be a candidate? Well, look, I think for sanity to be restored in the next election, we can't have a repeat of the last election, meaning Olivia Chow has the left to herself and the right is being gobbled up and broken down by four or five candidates who are fighting amongst themselves.

So what I hope happens is the early first few months of the race have as many people in as you want and that should be like the primary. The first few months should be like a primary. And if you don't get to a certain level of popular support by a certain date,

you commit to packing up and trying again another time. so that when it actually comes down to the vote, there is one person going up against Olivia Chapp. Good answer. Thank you very much. I've thought about this. All right, back to the here and now.

Thank you, gentlemen. Back to the here and now. And let's talk about some people who are running for something, the NDP. And there is a candidate, Avi Lewis, who's pitching public grocery stores. And analysts are saying this is a bad idea. It seems like an echo of what Zoron

Mamdani is pitching in New York City. So, Warren, what do you think of the idea of public grocery stores? Well, we should go consult people who grew up in the Soviet Union, you know, about how that all worked out. And, you know, maybe we'll be looking at, you know, picking up stockings and bubblegum, you know, when we go abroad because we won't have it here. Like, you know, capitalism has got its faults. It's got its blenishes.

But, you know, there is a reason why in democracy our economic, economic systems have evolved in the way that they have. And, you know, if governments are running that, you know, ask people in our military who are now having to use food banks periodically, how does it work out when the government is providing, you know, essentials for them? It often does not. It's not the business, you know, it's not the business of business that government should be in. They should be sticking to their own knitting and staying out of things like this.

So whether it's in New York City or any other place, you know, governments get. getting into providing that kind of support. I'm not talking about food banks, talking about just day-to-day essentials. History shows us, however well-intentioned it is, it doesn't work out. Chris Schapen, what do you think? I mean, look, I think it's a terrible idea. However, I can make the argument that if the government based the grocery store thing

on, say, the LCBO model that has incredible purchasing power, And they, the one thing they don't do is obtain lower prices with that purchasing power. But at the grocery level, they could do something like that, right? So what do you think? I think, you know, we'll want on the LCBO side, you know, we do get great value. We just tax the hell out of it, you know, to the consumer. My fear is we do the same when it comes to grocery stores. I think it's a terrible idea.

What I will say is it's nice to see the NDP being the NDP again. I think we missed this iteration of, you know, a really, really progressive voice on the left, even though I think the idea is crazy, you know, as a conservative who selfishly thinks we perform a lot better in elections when there's a strong left vote that doesn't just coalesce towards the liberal party. It's at least nice to see people putting crazy ideas out there that might attract some folks away from just defaulting to the liberal party who I don't think deserves to be reelected over and over again simply because the left's non-existent. Warren, if you were a betting man today, who would you say takes the crown and becomes the next NDP leader? Avi, I knew him when he had a show on another network, and I used to go on his show regularly. And like in person, he's a very charming guy. He's a very smart guy. You know, my problem with him is he's become, I think, a bit of an extremist on Israel and on policies like this. So maybe he's doing it for leadership.

All, you know, all three of us know when you're seeking the leadership, sometimes you have to stake out, you know, pretty extreme positions in order to distinguish yourself from the herd. Maybe he's doing that. But, you know, some of the stuff that he's talking about doing, I think, would be quite harmful for Canada and for Canada's reputation abroad. Well, Chris, like the NDP have the luxury of being not within, let's say, shooting distance of forming government. So what they put in a window can be anything they want. Yeah, I mean, they're a party that needs to find itself again, is what I would say, Ben.

And so I'm not sure that this is the answer for mainstream politics and that this is going to deliver them electoral success anytime soon. But, you know, to Warren's point, at least I like hearing them talk about, you know, economic social issues instead of just how crazy they've gotten on these, you know, foreign affairs or cultural, like social identity issues. Like start talking about things that are going to make potentially every Canadian's life different. All right, gentlemen, thank you so much. Enjoy your weekend. You too. Take care, Ben. and along the supply chain, and revenue to invest in roads, bridges, our national defense, and more.

You see, we're building more than a strong oil sands sector. We're helping to build a stronger Canada. We're Pathways Alliance, six of Canada's largest oil sands companies working together to help grow Canada's economy. Learn more at pathwaysalliance.ca.