The Ben Mulroney Show - Having an honest discussion about privatized health care

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

Guests and Topics: -Mark Carney's goal for Europe Trip/Hudson Bay liquidation with Guest: Tony Chapman, Host of the award winning podcast Chatter that Matters, Founder of Chatter AI -Need a Knee Replacement? You Can Get It at the Mall with Guest: Monica Kidd, Journalist and family physician in Calgary If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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and has your back all season long. From puck drop to the final shot, you're always taken care of You're an official sports betting partner of the National Hockey League and has your back all season long. From puck drop to the final shot, you're always taken care of with a sportsbook born in Vegas. That's a feeling you can only get with BetMGM. And no matter your team, your favorite skater or your style, there's something every NHL fan is going to love about BetMGM. Download the app today and discover why BetMGM is your hockey home for the game. You can bet MGM download the app today and discover why bet MGM is your hockey home for the season. Raise your game to the next

level this year with bed MGM, a sports book worth a celly and an official sports betting partner of the National Hockey League bed MGM dot com for terms and conditions must be 19 years of age or older to wager Ontario only please play

responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Well, listen, on this particular show, I love this next conversation. I speak with this man every week and we talk about all sorts of branding issues and we take a lot of important topics and look at them from a different angle. And I love how he makes me think. So please welcome to the show Tony Chapman, host of the award winning podcast, Chatter That Matters, as well as the founder of Chatter AI. Tony, welcome back. Always a pleasure, Ben. And right back at you in terms of how you make me think.

Well, listen, Mark Carney has decided that for his first foray onto the international stage, rather than go down to Washington, which would have been my preference, he's gone to the UK and France, as he says, to build quote, reliable trade and security partnerships. Listen, if that's what he wants to do, that's what he's gonna do.

But I've got to wonder if there's more at play than just diplomacy. Yeah, well, tell me your thoughts. Well, I mean, listen, I think the liberal playbook, which is they've used successfully for years, is that when election comes, number one, we gotta get voters to forget the past, ignore their present, and focus on the future.

And they do that incredibly well. It's like everything that happened in the past, and they do it by positioning the conservatives as evil, and they're the good, they're the safe haven. What Carney's doing right now, I think is a brilliant move on his part. I'm not sure Trump is going to entertain an audience with him. He goes to Europe. I promise you he'll come back with something. It might not be worth the paper it's written on, but he'll come back with some kind of

deal that says I'm a global States person. We no longer have to rely on America. Oh yeah, it's very low risk with the potential for high reward. Yeah. And the second thing he's going to do is I think he's going to use his deep context within China and he's going to get them to eliminate the

tariff on a canola oil. And by doing that, he's going to say to Canada, listen, you go with Polave, all your eggs are in one basket called Trump, and you know how those eggs are cracking, or you go with me and I'm going to open up the world to you. There's just something. It is brilliant, but it's also, in my opinion, deeply cynical because he got elected, he got appointed, and he said, I came into this race because this existential threat known as Donald Trump and his tariffs are a staring candidate in the face and I'm the only guy who can deal with him and so To leave that till after the election to me is deeply cynical and very disappointing Yeah, I don't think he can deal with Trump because again, I'm not sure Donald Trump's gonna entertain a liberal party

So he's got to go around Trump and say, listen, Trump is one thing, but if I can build Canada's relationships around the world and to an average voter, they're going to go, oh my God, you're going to open up the European market. They're not going to think about the 10 years it's going to take supply chain, how interconnected we are with the United States.

So I, you know, he, what he's doing is he's playing to the sense of, uh, this novel, this fable that a magic one can change everything. And really, it's going to come down to if he does call an election, and I would suggest he will sooner than people think, because the longer he's in power, the more people are going to feel this great sense of uncertainty and insecurity. He is going to position himself as global elite, global statemanship. It's his only way to turn it to an advantage. He's got his whole band, it's Trudeau's band. Yeah. Well, he chose all the troops. Where else can he choose from? Those are

the people in parliament. So it's got to be, it's got to be Carney is the one that's going to save the, all the eggs are in it. And I'll tell you something, this is why we're starting to see the conservatives dig up everything they can on Carney in terms of his actual track record in England versus the way it's being spun in Canada because they have to let voters know that, listen, you can't turn this country around with one individual who happens to have some relationships in Europe. You need a deal with the United States and we need a deal because listen, when they sneeze, we catch pneumonia. Hey, Tony Chapman, Hudson's Bay, 9,000 jobs, the most storied brand in the history of Canada,

is liquidating its entire business if no financing can be secured. I've got to ask, what happens to malls across this country that for generations have relied on Hudson's Bay as an anchor tenant? Because you and I talk about it all the time. Crises like these can be turned into opportunity if you're willing to really think outside the box. Yeah, and that's exactly what you have to do. You have to reinvent shopping centers as a place to be versus simply a place to buy.

What I might be that is very experience driven. We saw West Mall do that years ago in Edmonton putting a roller coaster in the middle. But how can we create this 10-minute city using the shopping center as the hub, build condos around it, and within the shopping center you've got healthcare, you've got fitness, you've got great restaurants, you've got experiences, grocery stores, libraries. I mean you could do all sorts of things. Schools. Put a school in there and create this whole sense I don't have to commute, it's all here. And that is the future of shopping centers because the day that, I'll tell you where the shopping center is now, it's all here. And, and that is the future of shopping centers

because the day that I'll tell you where the shopping center is now, it's in the palm of my hand, it's called Amazon. Yeah. I don't need to leave my lazy boy and fight city, the Toronto traffic or any traffic in fact, no matter to get to a store. So shopping centers have to think about within

10 minutes, people are still social creatures, but give me a place to be versus a place to buy. And I promise you that's going to be the future shopping centers. Hey, Tony, what do you make of Tesla being one of the worst performing stocks since Donald Trump entered office? Well, I think this is this, you know, half of America didn't vote for Donald Trump. And you're seeing this sentiment expressed against Elon Musk, because that's where they can put some pain. That's where they can put some pressure. And so they're doing everything they can to discredit the company and turn their Teslas in. In fact, it used to be that you were considered

somebody if you happen to have a Tesla. Now your question in terms of your values and integrity by having one. So it's very tough. And I feel sorry for Musk because he took this on as a public service, whether you like what he's done or not. He did it because he feels this is better for America. And the blowback is costing him and his business and all the people that work at Tesla. A very precarious adventure that lies ahead for them. Let's talk about Unilever. They've decided to invest half of their budget on an influencer-first strategy. Now first, a lot of people have heard of Unilever. Maybe you could let us know a little bit more about that company and the brands that they've got. But it also feels to me like this is just the new iteration of sort of a celebrity endorsement. It is. I mean Dove is a great

example of a Unilever brand. Canor is a great example, Sunsilk, Axe. So they're really into the food business and that sort of the, I'd say the vanity healthcare business, you know, great shampoos and such. What they realize is that consumers aren't, they've moved from mass media to their media. They're within their own castles. Yeah. And the only people that they're inviting in is what they consider influencers, people they like, people they enjoy, people that they feel have got commentary. So what Unilever is trying to do is instead of hijacking onto Seinfeld on a Thursday night and putting my commercial there, hoping you'd pay attention,

they're now going to influencers and say, Hey, you tell people why you love Dove and we'll pay you for it. And that to me is the new, sadly, the new path to consumers because it's done through individuals versus the kind of media that at one day used to be able to invest in investigative journalism. So influencers are not holding our politicians' feet to the fire.

It's the journalists that are. But Tony, it does feel to me that yes, the influencer culture is here, it's not going anywhere, but it still feels to me like a higher risk strategy because I hear almost every week, I hear a story of an influencer who runs a foul of either social norms or is unethical or who speaks out both sides of their mouth.

Like to me, it's really, again, back to a sort of an expression I used earlier, possibly high reward, but higher risk than other strategies. Absolutely. You never know what's going to happen to the influencer and where they're going to end up one day. But listen, I'll give you an example of where it works. I hire you to do a talk at a conference. You've got your influencer out, you've got a following, you talk about it.

And I want to hear your views on being, why you believe in conservative values. I had a commercial about conservative values. You dismiss it. Oh, that's values. If I had a commercial about conservative values, you'd dismiss it. Oh, that's more Polo. They just talking about, you know, axing the tax, but suddenly someone I respect is out there contributing to the conversation. That's when influencer marketing works well, because you have influence where it doesn't

work well. As I suddenly staple my brand to a Taylor Swiss forehead, she gets paid a gazillion dollars and I hope because she, I'm going to bask in her glory. I think that's easy. Or Jared from Subway. Yeah. Jared from Subway is a great example. You're always taking a risk with it. You're much easier when you control your own media versus surrender it.

But today I'm locked into a castle, my media, I'm creating my own content. I'm not listening to mass media. Therefore the only people coming into a castle, my media, I'm creating my own content, I'm not listening to mass media, therefore the only people coming into my castle are influencers and people within my social network. I'm a brand, I've got to use them as my Trojan horse, whether you like it or not. Tony Chapman, we're going to leave it there, but I hope you have a great St. Patrick's Day. You as well, my friend. Ben MGM is an official sports betting partner of the National Hockey League and has your back all season long.

From puck drop to the final shot, you're always taken care of with a sportsbook born in Vegas. That's a feeling you can only get with Bad MGM. And no matter your team, your favorite skater or your style, there's something every NHL fan is going to love about Bad MGM. Download the app today and discover why Bet MGM is your hockey home for the season. Raise your game to the next level this year with Bet MGM, a sports book worth a celly,

and an official sports betting partner of the National Hockey League. BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you,

please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. Bet MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hi, I'm Donna Friesen from Global National. Life moves fast these days, and we wanna make it even easier for you to get the news you need. That's why youriesen from Global National. Life moves fast these days, and we want to make it even easier for you to get the news you need.

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and wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show, the Canadian healthcare system. It is, it has been, and it remains to a large extent, a point not just of national pride, but a key aspect for a lot of people about our national identity. How we care for each other matters and we value it so much that we actually look at

this institution as part of who we are. It's really quite a unique aspect of being Canadian. But increasingly, there are more and more people who need to avail themselves for whatever reasons of private alternatives. And to discuss the implications of that, I'm joined by the author of a terrific piece in the Walrus, Monica Kidd, who's a journalist, but as well a family physician in Calgary. Monica, welcome to the show.

Hi, Ben, thanks, it's my pleasure. Yeah, so this, look, I like to take the world as it is, not as I want it to be. I wanna live in a world where when, you know, we love to. It's my pleasure. Yeah. So this, look, I like to take the world as it is, not as I want it to be. I want to live in a world where when, you know, we love to say Canada's healthcare system is, you know, the high watermark. It just isn't. And so there are a lot of people who feel, well, why should I have to suffer because the system can't get its act together and they find ways to cut the cut the queue use private health care. It seems like that's sort of what people are forced to do these days. It's true. There's a lot of people waiting for a long time for surgery. And, you know, if if we all

had to wait, then I think people would just adapt to that. But we know that there are other options. We can go across the border. And if there's money in the bank, we can avail of other opportunities. And so those pressures tend to bleed over into a public system like ours for sure. Yeah. Now, in the article, you do a terrific job chronicling,

you know, the difficult road that Melanie Schmidt had to hoe. Why don't you tell us a little bit about Melanie Schmidt had to hoe. Why don't you tell us a little bit about Melanie? Yeah, Melanie, I think, was a she was really candid with me, and she's a great example of someone who, like you were saying, actually really believes in the public system in Canada and her taxes. You know, she says to me, my taxes have paid for it, I want to protect it. But when I'm waiting for a year and a half or longer for new joints and it's affecting my quality of life, I can't be active, I'm in pain all the time. And I wanted, she's used to being on the go, you know.

So she said, well, I have some money in the bank, it's going to be tight, but it's a priority for me. So she started looking for options internationally in the States and Mexico. And then she found her way to an option in Quebec, which was going to be way cheaper than the States and more expensive than other countries. But she liked the idea of staying in Canada. Yeah. than other countries, but she liked the idea of staying in Canada. And so she went to Quebec and she had both of her knees done and she was back home in Calgary in a matter of days. And now she's working on her rehab

and she doesn't regret that decision. That's what made sense for her. Of course, I mean, there's actually a quote in the article that says, if I only have 15 years left on this planet, why should I have to wait three years to be without pain? And there's a real logic behind that. But Melanie, I'm gonna say something,

it's probably a hot take, but I'd love your comment on it. So, because a lot of people like Melanie will get pushback from people saying, you're the reason, you're the problem, you're taking money out of the system, you're cutting the queue. To that, I would say,

and this is what I want your reaction on, any one person's decision to avail themselves of a private option, it can do far less damage than what the system has done to itself, because never before have we put more money into a system that is providing such poor outcomes. So what do you say to that?

Yeah, I think it's really hard to... We all have individual decisions and then we have collective decisions to make as a group. And we know what the collective decisions should be. And then we say, well, then I should, I don't know, I think about this in terms of climate change. We need to make a whole bunch of changes at the international level,

and I need to make changes in my own life. And that goes for public healthcare access as well. I think it's just a really hard argument to ask individuals to sacrifice their own personal well-being for something that feels abstract because pain is immediate. It trumps everything. It's a lot somebody to put their own personal pain aside for a greater good. Take one for the team. That's right. That's right. Monica. So I don't fault individuals in any way. I also see the other side of it

as someone who works in the public system. Well, you know what? That segues perfectly into what I was going to ask you next. May I ask how long you've been a physician? I since 2011. Okay. So I have to assume that in the past 14 years, the system the system that you entered 14 years ago is not the system that that you're working in today.

No, for sure. Like when I first started, and I've worked in different provinces, too, with different amounts of resources, I started practicing in Newfoundland, which has its own set of challenges compared to Alberta for sure. But it used to be, I mean, even when I started 14 years ago, people assumed that they would have a family doctor probably for life. And I don't think people make that assumption anymore.

Now, when I see patients, I actually ask them, you know, if I'm seeing them for a reason that's not family medicine, doing obstetrics, for I'll I've stopped asking who's your family doctor and instead I'll say do you have a family doctor? Yeah now as a family doctor if there's one thing that I have heard from people who are focused on trying to solve the problem of Family doctors is it people of your in your specialty? Deal with burnout at a very high rate. I Think everybody in health care is facing burnout your specialty, deal with burnout at a very high rate?

I think everybody in healthcare is facing burnout. I think nurses are facing burnout. I think physicians are facing burnout. There's so much need and everybody feels personally, everyone wants to do their best. But Monica, how much of it is attributable to, and this again is based on what I've heard from others, the sort of the top-down bureaucratic responsibilities that seem to be endemic

and that are causing doctors like yourself, instead of being able to practice all day long, you're filling out paperwork. Yeah, there's a lot of that for sure. And there's a lot of, you know, I hate that word, but siloing and medicine. So I send somebody to a cardiologist, and then I have to they send it back because they want something other other paperwork filled out because

they want to make their job easy to I don't fault them for that. But what it does is it means people's referrals circle and circle. And there's a lot of paperwork and everyone is resentful. Everyone just wants to see patients. Everyone just wants to fix people and to help them. And yet we have these 23 page long disability insurance things to fill out for people. And it's not their fault, but somebody needs to do it.

And a lot of it is false. But where did, I guess that's my question, Monica. That to me is the issue. You're filling out forms today that you didn't have to fill out 10 years ago. But what has changed in terms of the dynamic of delivering healthcare that those forms all of a sudden today are essential,

that they didn't even exist 11 years ago? I know, well, a lot of them did, but I think that COVID changed a lot. I think that there changed a lot. I think that there are a lot more, what's the word I'm looking for? People need allowances to work from home or to have certain, you know, to have other kinds of arrangements. Oh, dispensations. Yeah, yeah, that sort of thing.

And I don't fault any individual for wanting that. I would want it too if I needed it. But the fact that doctors need to fill out things that half the time I'm just asking the patient what they think the answer should be. Like I'm expected to know the answer to you know how long a person should be able to stand before they need to sit down. I mean I don't know that information and yet somebody needs the answer and often it just falls to doctors to somehow magically know the answers. Like I've noticed that the bigger the company or the bigger the bureaucracy that exists, the more people exist in that organization whose job it is to slow things down.

And if they, and they, and if things slow down, they have justified why they actually have a job. And so you're telling me you need to all of a sudden, it's vital for you to know how long someone can stand before they need to sit. That was not information that was needed for you to do your job or wasn't germane to the responsibilities for 10, 15 years ago. But somebody identified that as something that could slow things down. And that, to me, is the madness here that if we could have an honest

look at health care, not through rose colored glasses, we all want healthcare to be the best version of itself, but if we're not willing to have those hard looks and honest looks at what exactly is ailing the system, it's never gonna improve. It's true, and there's a little bit of that that is being done, like doctor's notes, like sick notes. Organizations used to require you, if you missed one or two days of work,

to go to the doctor and ask for a note that said yes, you know, Mrs. Yeah. Organizations used to require you if you missed, you know, one or two days of work to go to the doctor and ask for a note that said yes, you know, Monica Jones. I'm sorry, I got to run. I'm sorry. But thank you so much. The article is called needed a knee replacement. You can get it at the mall on walrus.ca. Time to go digging for audio gold. It's Monday. So we spend the weekend mining the internet for moments you may have missed or you may want to hear again. And look, the women of The View are asinine. They are, for the life of me,

I have no idea why that show is still on TV. It's just a whole bunch of women who all agree with each other, attacking one side of the political spectrum. You know what it is, it's like, it's a bunch of left-wing trolls embodied on television. Online Twitter trolls manifested as human beings. And Stephen A. Smith, who whether you agree with him or not,

in my opinion, is an honest, good broker. When he speaks, you know he's being authentic. He's willing to say when he's wrong, he'll make the case for somebody even if he disagrees with them. And so I love hearing what he has to say. And Stephen A. Smith was on The View as the ladies of The View were trying to downplay

Donald Trump's mandate. Let's listen. He won the popular vote by 1.5%, one of the smallest ever, and he won the general election by less than 50%. So what kind of mandate is this really? Well, it is a mandate, and I'm going to explain why. And I don't mind the question, but let me be very clear. I'm no supporter of Trump. I'm a supporter of truth and the facts. And here's the facts. The man won every swing state. He increased in terms of his voter turnout in his favor from

the standpoint of blacks, Latinos, and young voters. He increased his numbers in that regard from 2020. 89% of the counties shifted to the right. That's a mandate. We can sit up there and play around all we want to. In 2020, they didn't, Trump didn't win the popular vote. He didn't win the electoral college vote. A matter of fact, the Republicans had won the popular vote, if I remember correctly, in 2004. But they did this year. So 20 years after they last won a popular vote, they won the popular vote. Yes, exactly.

In other words, ladies, if you're going to complain, come correct. Don't start looking back and trying to diminish and minimize the victory that Donald Trump earned. I just don't understand why that show is even on the air anymore. Okay, so a lot of us have been paying very close attention to California Governor Gavin Newsom's new podcast, where he seems very eager to invite onto the show conservative voices. And he seems to find common cause with them in a way that a lot of people did not expect from Gavin Newsom.

I think what he's doing is very smart strategically and politically. I think that he is reinventing himself as a moderate Democrat in the hopes of building up a coalition that will hopefully push out and marginalize some of the radical progressive voices that have destroyed that party and made it unpalatable to almost 70% of Americans. But that doesn't mean that the people at Fox News aren't gonna have a lot of fun with him. They've been watching the video portion of his podcast and they

they're trying to understand why he speaks with his hands the way he does. And there's a Fox News talking head, his name is Tyrus, and he has a theory as to what's going on with Gavin Newsom's hands. What I saw, it looked to me like he was negotiating with a deaf prostitute. If you go back and watch the tape, he literally goes, I want some of this, then you do some of this, and I'll do some of that back to you, and then we'll do this, and then I'll pay you, and then we'll do it again. And then she kept saying, no.

Okay, how about this? You do this one first, then we do this one, then we give a little back and forth. When my producer first gave me sort of the 401-1 that this was something that I should listen to, I was like, oh, God, I really, I don't want partisan hacks taking issue with something that doesn't matter. And he goes, no, no, it's actually really funny. And it is funny. I don't want partisan hacks taking issue with something that doesn't matter.

And he says, no, no, it's actually really funny. And it is funny. And I bet you Gavin Newsom found it funny too. Look, I talk with my hands a lot. I gesticulate a lot. I would not want any, I don't know what this looks like to other people. This is just how I talk.

But anyway, it was all in good fun, hopefully. There is a story out of, I believe, New Mexico of a 19-year-old who, you ask yourself, what would you do if you found like $150,000? Just cash, just sitting there. What would you do? Well, this 19-year-old New Mexico is put to the test. And I believe he demonstrated his moral fiber

and his character in that moment. Let's, let's listen to the news report. A 19 year old out to buy his grandfather some socks came across a bag with $135,000 just sitting near Wells Fargo ATM in Albuquerque. Jose Nunez Romanes told CBS affiliate KRQE he called the number on the ATM then police because he knew trying to keep the money meant he would have to deal with mom. Back of my head I was just thinking about my parents, especially my mom, what she would do if I came home with the money and what she would do if her chancla had to hit me.

It turns out the Wells Fargo subcontractor, whose job it is to fill the ATM, left the cash there by accident. The mayor and police chief recognized Nunez for doing the right thing when no one was looking and invited him to apply as a public safety officer while still in school. Nunez also got a $500 check from New Mexico energy provider PNM, a gift card and $500 cash from a local restaurant, University of New Mexico Lobos football season tickets, and a signed football from former Bears linebacker Brian Erlacher. You know, when my dad was around, he would always remind me, he's like, you know, whenever you're

driving, I want you to look in the rearview mirror and imagine that I'm sitting there and then behave accordingly. And clearly his parents said similar things to him because in that moment when he was faced with the prospect of walking away scot-free with $150,000, he thought back to what his parents, how his parents would want him to behave. That is a good and honorable young man. And I'm so glad he's getting the recognition from his community

because it's a model that others will want to emulate, I hope. That's one of those positive feedback loops that you hope will take root. So that's someone who behaved honorably. You may have seen a video over the past few days of a woman in a competition. She was in a race and she, it was a relay race and she had the baton in her hand. And the video shows what looks like her clubbing one of her competitors over the head with the baton.

Well, she gave a press conference where she, she played the victim. She played the victim, even though the video is as clear as day that it's an assault. Let's listen to her. We stand with you. We stand with you. We stand with you.

We stand with you. We support you. Thank y'all for supporting me. There's nobody else wanted to hear my story except for people that know me and people that know I would never do anything like that. I would never harm anybody. I'm not a fighter. I'm not even a competition.

I wouldn't even do that on purpose. And I thank y'all for believing in me. And I love y'all. Except you did do it. for believing in me and I love y'all. You did it! You did it! You did it! You did it! Except you did do it. The video is as clear as day.

She claims that it's part of her running style. She clubbed this girl. She galoolied this girl. And I would have had a lot more respect for her and understanding for her if she had said, you know what? I don't even know what overcame me. I was, you know, the adrenaline was pumping and I sensed I was losing and I lashed out and I'm so sorry. It was the race that I've been waiting for my whole life and career. It built up to that moment

and I don't know what happened. I have nothing but apologies and shame but I want to make things right. I bet you a lot of people would have understood that. Instead she got into an echo chamber where people were telling her she's the victim. No, no. The person who's the victim is the person who got clubbed in the head. That's the victim. Do not lose sight. Just because you have a lot of people telling you what you want to hear does not make the fiction that you've created Any closer to reality? You are not the victim ma'am the woman you clubbed over the head in the middle of a race is and I and the video

Proves it. It's as simple as that as simple as that It's as simple as that. As simple as that. Because at Desjardins Business, we speak the same language you do, business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business.