The Ben Mulroney Show - Hebsy on Canada's Skeleton conspiracy and buying the Buffalo Bills urinals. Huh?

Episode Date: January 12, 2026

GUEST:    Mark Hebscher / author of Madness: The Rise and Ruin of Sports Media If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠��⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by the National Payroll Institute, the leader for the payroll profession in Canada, setting the standard of professional excellence, delivering critical expertise, and providing resources that over 45,000 payroll professionals rely on. What does top talent really want? Do our tax research tools make us seem outdated? What does top talent really want? How can we stop losing people to our competitors? What does top talent really want? What if new grads don't want to work like it's 1999? With BlueJ, you can give your people the tools they need to succeed.

Tools that make it possible to go from tax question to client comms in minutes. Get better answers to tough questions. BlueJ. AI for tax experts. Yep, that's right. It is the Ben Mulroney show. And a couple of weeks ago, we had a great new guest join us. And I told him, I said, feel free to come back anytime.

And a man of my word and wanted to hear what he had to say, Mark Hebser, the author of Madness, the Rise and Rune of Sports Media. Hibsey, thank you so much for coming back because this is a story that we want to unpack with you. Let's go, Ben. I'm all set for this one. Okay, so a lot of people might not know. It might not popped up on their feeds, but we're going to tell them about it.

There is a controversy surrounding the Canada skeleton team that's going to the Olympics. And skeleton is sort of like luge, and it's sort of like bob sledding. It's one of those sports. And yeah, apparently we are, I mean, are we accused of cheating? Is it unsportsmanlike conduct?

Is it gaming the system? Tell us what happened here. Okay, so what happens is that every competition is not meaningful. And in some competitions, you only need a certain number of points to assure yourself of a position in the finals, for example. And you can also eliminate other teams by, you know, kind of tanking. It's not uncommon. Ethics, I don't know. Ben, I don't know enough about the ethics.

of sledding. I don't know. I mean... Well, yeah, we're learning about them in real time. So the U.S. skeleton star, her name is Katie Eulander. She's a five-time Olympian. And she says that Canada manipulated an Olympic qualifying race to block Americans from earning the needed points. And they made sure they withdrew some of their players

which reduced the amount of available points. And so that's at the heart of it. Now, she also said that Canada's coach, John Caccini, admitted the plan in advance saying it wasn't his job to uplift athletes from other countries. And look, you've got some pretty heavy hitters

that are taking issue with this. You've got coaches from the U.S., Denmark, Israel, Malta. They've all written to the IOC saying this raises serious concerns over fairness of qualification. And I mean, I take their point. I don't have an opinion on this yet because it feels to me like,

look, we hear stories in other sports. like when a professional team qualifies for the playoffs, they'll rest their players to keep them strong for the playoffs. I mean, it feels to me at least at this point in learning about this story, that's where the story, that's the side of the fence I'm leaning on. What about you? This is a whiny woman who felt that she, you know, as being denied an opportunity to win a gold medal,

which she has never done. She's done everything else in the sport. She's 41 years old, and it's this swan song. It's like when Mary Decker fell in the Olympics, and that was it. She fell during the race. She got kicked her. And then she blamed it on Zola Bud. She kicked me, and she got in the way.

And it ended very sour. And I feel bad for this woman. But, I mean. So this is, you're saying this is don't hate the player, hate the game. Anyone else would do it. Yeah. And in fact, I can guarantee you right now, right now, someone is cheating. Someone is trying to manipulate the result of a competition.

of a game, in this case here, look, if the opportunity presents itself to manipulate the outcome of an event or the outcome of an overall competition of which this event that we're talking about was part of, then that's cheating. Yeah. But only if you get caught. And nowadays, that takes a lot. That's a forensic investigation that could take years. But is there a way, like, let's say the IOC investigates this and says, no, there,

there's no cheating here. However, it does demonstrate a heavy hand of doing things off the course that could affect who's in the Olympics that we don't want to see. There's two types of sports, right? There's the ones that are entirely objective and there's the ones that are subjective. This to me always felt like an objective sport, like the fastest person wins, as opposed to the points in figure skating. both sports, but results are determined completely differently. I didn't even know there was a subjective aspect to this sport. And that kind of takes something away from me, which I'm a little disappointed.

So do you think maybe the IOC upon reviewing this can say, all right, nobody really cheated. However, we are noticing that there's too much subjectivity in terms of the qualifying. And therefore, we have to come up with a system that removes that as much of that subjectivity as possible. Well, first of all, you have to bone up on your skeleton, Ben, if we're going to talk sports. Because, yeah, many of these, and I don't even want to call them sports, because I wouldn't know a skeleton razor if they slid right in front of me. I mean, I don't know anyone who's skeletons. I've never skeleton before. I don't know if it, is it a verb? It's like, it's like a lose, it's like a lose, but you're positioned differently.

You're facing forward as opposed to leaning back. Right. Yeah, it's nuts. Right. it's 90 degree at Luz or 180, whatever that. Yeah, it is. But the thing is is that it's not, it's one of those sports where if you were to say, well, you have to be one of the top, you have to have enough people that play this sport,

this activity for it to be an Olympic sport. I don't know anybody that's ever been on a skeleton, a luge much, much less. I mean, Bob's laying, to me, that's not a huge event. So when you said the IOC should investigate, I sort of chuckled because, come on. Yeah. You see the IOC going, okay, folks, let's. We've got to stop everything we're doing here. Forget about what's happening in Cortina with the rink.

Forget about the problems with the Olympics. We've got to concentrate on skeleton so that the 17 people in the world that are interested in this sport, you know, get their justice. And this one particular woman who's got sour grapes because she's never won the goal before. And she's 41 and this is it. It's her swan song, blah, blah, blah. And it's U.S. versus Canada and sour grapes anyway between these two nations. Well, hey, like, listen, hold on. You know, you and I have short memories because here we are nitpicking about,

skeleton and how nobody does it. John Montgomery, the Canadian Olympic legend, won his Olympic gold. It was the first Olympic, I believe, first gold medal at the Olympics in 2010 that was legendary, a fairy tale for this country.

And then he walked through the Olympic village and someone gave him a beer and he pounded it like a GD hero. I remember. So that was skeleton. Now, I've spent time with John Montgomery and the story on how he got into skeleton was incredible.

I think he had tried to qualify for a different sport and didn't. And there was an open tryout where the skeleton team or organizers were showing it to potential athletes. He knew nothing about it and tried it. He was an athlete. He certainly was a physical specimen and he had been, you know, he was on the higher end of performance. And he tried it out and said, I like this. And that's how he got into skeleton. And I thought that was a really interesting thing.

He didn't wake up. He hadn't been training in skeleton. in his whole life. He's like, I want to get into the Olympics. This seems to me like a way to do it. And he's sort of backed into it as opposed to learning it at an early age. I think that's an interesting aspect to it. It is.

And as much as we'd like to think that all Canadians are wonderful, fabulous people and would never cheat at anything. We do have a history of cheating, right? Well, the most recent one that I can remember. Charlie Francis. Yeah. The Canadian soccer team, those drones? Yeah.

It's tough to get away from stuff like that. That was tricky. Oh, is spying really cheating? Look, if you're trying to manipulate the outcome of an event, it's cheating. And it's great, as long as you get away with it. And once you can't, don't get away with it anymore, you are tainted. So are we tainted as a nation now? But if people go, oh, yeah, Canada, isn't that the same country that we've got some pretty

high profile cases where people can point to us and go, they're cheating? Well, I want to tell you, I want to tell you my two Ben Johnson stories. The first was I was watching the race that he won, that he cheated. with my dad on TV. Was he the PM at the time? He was prim minister at the time. And I've never seen my dad move this quick. He was lying on the bed when the race started.

By the end of it, he was an inch from the TV. He was so excited. He got right on the phone and called somebody so he could talk to Ben Johnson. And I thought that was cool because nobody else could do that. And he called him and talked to him to congratulate him. Then fast forward to the year that Donovan Bailey won gold. 96. 96th in Atlanta. Yeah, fast forward to that.

and I'm watching in a hotel in Montreal and all of a sudden I see somebody stand up and almost like skipping. So happy. And they're leaving the bar that I'm watching and I look at and it was Ben Johnson. And you could see the pressure had left his shoulders that he was like for the first time

he didn't have the weight of that on him anymore. We had a new hero and he just looked like a different person. And so those are my two Ben Johnson stories. That's great. I don't think I can top those. Those are pretty good stories. Listen, you're going to stick around after the break. Sure.

Yeah, well, can you? Of course. Yeah, I want to talk to you about saying goodbye to the Bill's stadium and the giant urinal troughs that are going on auction. Everything must go. So we're going to sell that. We're talking about that in a few other stories. when we come back.

So don't go anywhere. What does top talent really want? Do our tax research tools make us seem outdated? What does top talent really want? How can we stop losing people to our competitors? What does top talent really want? What if new grads don't want to work like it's 1999? With Blue Jay, you can give your people the tools they need to succeed.

Tools that make it possible to go from tax question to client comms in minutes. Get better answers to tough questions. Blue Jay, AI for tax experts. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. And welcome back to Hebsy. He's sticking around. He's stuck around to keep talking sports in our own BMS inimitable way, which is kind of about sports, but not about sports.

I mean, I'm a sports fan, but I would not never get on the radio and jump into the deep end. I leave that to the experts, one of whom is Mark Hebscher, who's with us right now. Thanks so much for sticking around, my friend. Sure, anytime. Okay, I don't know about you. I'm not a sentimental guy, but I have some sports memorabilia that means a lot to me.

I've got a baseball signed by Ernie Banks, where he wrote Let's Play 2. I've got two baseballs from the All-Star game in Toronto signed by Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams, and it's all due to my brother because we sat with them for the game. we talked to them.

And my brother was, my brother inserted himself as a middleman between MLB and the two legends and brought them the boxes of balls. And then with each, with these box, he pocketed a ball. And so he's,

nice move. Yeah, very nice move. And I have upper deck baseball cards signed by every single All-Star from that game. And so, but I'm not sentimental about,

very much, but I'm very proud that we have those things. Do you have any, do you have any memorabilia? any any memorabilia was that the word yeah do you have any yeah like what so what are the things that mean the most to you see here's the thing and i have to tell you as a journalist it's it's it's hard i mean yeah i have some great stuff but i really don't like to talk about it only because it's it was unethical but i did it anyway because i'm a fan no i'm serious okay well okay can you

can you say can you talk about any you've just admitted you've just admitted to unethical behavior so might as well i did it so okay so i do an interview with arnold par now we're told, you know, no, and we know this in the media. You know, you don't ever ask for autographs, okay? Yeah. And nowadays, I guess it's no selfies, but, you know, in fact, you end up doing it. And most people are okay with it now. They just used to it. Yeah, yeah, come on. And it doesn't take, you, they don't have to actually sign anything. They just stand there and someone takes a picture. So it's expected. But back then, of course, and so now I do this great interview with Arnold Palmer at the Western Golf Club and terrific. Lee Trevino's there. And, and it's wonderful. And I do

this great interview for Global. And as soon as I'm done, as soon as I'm done. And my, and my cameraman stops, I lean over and I say, Mr. Palmer, I'm sure you get this a lot. And really, I know it's not the right thing to do. And he just says to me, he looks up, but he says, Mark, just hand it over to me. Like I had a reporter's notebook, you know, spirally kind of notebook, the flip notebook. He just handed over to me discreetly, right? And I swear to you, he made it seem like he was writing something important down, but not his autograph. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. He just sort of made it seem like, you know, and like gave it the furrowed brow, like I'm writing a phone number down for you. Someone's the call, that kind of thing like that.

And it's not my phone number, blah, blah. But he signed and a beautiful signature. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Width wise, gorgeous. And but then he just folded up the thing and handed it back and just said and just make it like nothing. And that was the coolest thing. So he signed it for him, knowing it was unethical.

He had done it, I'm sure, for other people. And then later I read about all these people who said their most prize possession is an autograph from Arnold Palmer. So that would be the big one. That's awesome. Well, meanwhile, there's lots of other stuff, you know, a bit of cool. We'll talk about those off air. Exactly. Okay.

So meanwhile, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, they're saying goodbye to their old stadium, high mark stadium. There's a new one being built right across. Thank God. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But, thank God. I guess in an effort to, um, I don't know, recycle up purpose, upcycle things, every, they're

selling everything as pieces of memorabilia. And if you go to their website, if you go to the bill's store, you know, I've got the, the, the chairs. I've got two of the Reds from the old Montreal forum. And I pull them out every time I watch a game. But they've got these, the Buffalo Bills, Highmark Stadium authentic pair of seats. So two seats go for $649.

I'm pretty sure that's less than actually the seats at games. They've got the double bleacher, 549. For some reason, a single Highmark Stadium authentic seat goes for $5.49. So for $100 more, you get two seats. That's interesting. There's probably different quality. No, no, there's guys I know that

that want to watch the game by themselves. And they would put one seat in the man cave and say, no, that's just me. I know a lot of people, I know Nate Bart Gatsy's, that's it. Like he watches the games by himself. Okay. All right. And I'm the same way. I don't want anyone around. The state, the authentic turf. You can get a doormat made of

the turf for 99 bucks. They got all sorts of stuff. They've taken the they've taken the gold post and shaved it down and turned it into pencil holders. I think that's great. You get those for 109 bucks. they've got a piece of the another piece of the post that's sort of in an authentic

display case that's another 99 bucks all of these look all these make sense to me but then there's also because I've never seen this but but my producer who's part of the mafia they've got the giant aluminum urinal troughs you know Habsey I don't know about you

but I once saw someone fall in one of those Oh. Once? Only once? Only once? I would, I've only been... There'd be fights guys would have it out, and they were literally and figuratively have it out. And you're standing in line watching this going on,

say, oh, do I hold it in? Or do I try to go around these guys, or what do I do? But also, the guy fell in was wearing those big puffy jackets like the Michigan man. It just soaks up everything. Oh, no. It was horrible. And then he went back and sat shoulder to shoulder with everybody else. Oh, yeah, you know, he did.

With the steam coming off of him in the cold on the steam. Yeah. But you guys, but you have to understand. I was, you went Maple Leaf Gardens had those troughs worse. They were porcel and tops and they were all rusted. And you're standing next to some 85 year old guy or whatever. You don't know who this person is. And you're touching, you know, you're not touching each other.

But still, that was the most shocking thing to me that they had these troughs. I don't know, Hebsy. What's your best memory of that stadium in Buffalo? Because, I mean, you obviously went to games down there. Was it the, I mean, the tailgating was crazy. They did this crazy thing with the mafia. They jump on tables now. Yeah.

Yeah, I see that. Way, but first of all, you have to understand, I went, I was a Bill's fan when they played at the old War Memorial Stadium. So that place was a real pit. And the players had to run through the grandstand to get to the field. So imagine you're standing there having a hot dog, a beer, whatever. And now they pull these chains over. And now the players come click, clack, click with their cleats through the grandstand. Okay.

And after the game, if your team lost, man, they'd be throwing stuff. And they had to literally run the gauntlet. Oh, God. So once they moved into Rich Stadium, It was a heaven. It was beautiful, clean, brand new. And OJ could now run and not have to worry about falling in the mud and stuff like that. So those early days of OJ were probably the most exciting.

And the best game, of course, was the comeback, was the amazing comeback. Yeah. Just hitting the field goal there down 353. It was just worn moon. And it was amazing. Wasn't there, there was a hope that they would never build a stadium in Buffalo so that we could eventually entice them to move to Toronto with a new stadium. That's true.

But it seems like every. Exactly true. But everybody seems to. That was a pipe dream because there was no, I knew, there was no way that they would allow, the CFL would allow it, the CFL supporters. If they had to go to the highest levels of government, you know that. Ben? Yeah, yeah.

They had to go Mark La Lawn and say, no, no, we have to stop these leagues from taking, you know, Canadian football away our identity. It's part of our identity. Well, let me ask you a question then. Because it seems like there's some moves. They're getting rid of the extra 10 yards on the Canadian football league. They're not going 110 yards anymore. is, is, what do you think of those, those game, those rule changes that are coming to the league next year?

If, if I thought that it was going to have more people interested in Canadian football, watching the games, being part of the CFL community, then I would say, yeah, if they've done studies and whatever it's, yeah, this is why we're going to do it. We're going to make it 100 yards. We're going to make it a hybrid of the American, whatever. I would say so. But this isn't the first time they've tried something ridiculous. Like when they expanded into the U.S., you know, Ben. I don't know if I mentioned this to you. I did a game in Memphis one time. The Argos

in the Memphis. Well, guess what? The end zones were only like nine yards deep. What was what Memphis called? Because I remember the Shreveport Pirates. The Memphis Mad Dogs. Memphis Mad Dogs. And there was the Newport Pirates. There's the Nevada Gold Strike. Because I was in... No, there was the Las Vegas gold miner.

Gold mine, yes. So I was living... I was living in Nevada that summer. Sorry, Sacramento Gold Miners. Sacramento Gold Miner. So I was there, and I watched ESPN and they were trying to explain Canadian football, like a whole program where they're trying to explain Canadian football. And that was a, that was a failed experiment for sure.

But I very much enjoyed the fact that they were taking a big swing. I'd take it a very big swing. I'd always said that, yeah. Who would buy those urinals and how much you think they would go for? Oh yeah. Back to the urals. Who would buy the urinal?

It would have to be a place that had an industrial type of bathroom. And I don't know, like, you know, some bed and breakfast thing, and by the way, if you want to go wash the dog or take a league, Oh, there you go. There's a big stainless steel. But when I think of that, it reminds me, like when you guys went to school, especially in middle school, did they not have those big, it wasn't, not urinals, but they had those where you wash your hands.

Yeah, no, that's what I was saying. I kept looking at that. That reminded me of where I used to wash my hands. And I was like, hey, you could repurpose that. And I got catch myself. I was like, are you kidding? No effing way. Oh, yes.

You're washing your hands. That's where a bunch of drunk guys have been peeing for the better part of a century. Because it's way below the cert. You're not touching the stainless steel at all. Who does that? When you're in the sink, you've got your hands under the faucet. You're not touching the stainless steel. It doesn't matter.

It's proximity. Hebsy, it's proximity. Enough Buffalo Bills fans have fallen in and touched it enough. Hebsy, thank you so much for being here. Again, the door is always open to you. I'd love to have you back soon. Guys, always a pleasure. In any time, Ben, like, you know me, I have an opinion on anything sports. All right, you take care.

Doc returns this January on Global. My mind is trying to tell me something With gripping new cases If it doesn't work, you'll kill him It will work They're gonna make you the fall guy for this I just don't want to fail anyone ever again As her fight moves forward

To recover what was lost You can't undo what was done Just let it go, please, no And rebuild her life I'll do whatever it takes I'm here if you need to me I know Doc, all new Wednesday at 9eastern 10 Mountain

On Global, stream on Stack TV