The Ben Mulroney Show - Home invasion in the GTA - An exclusive podcast interview with a survivor

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

- Hank Idsinga / Former Toronto Police Detective If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠���⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: @benmulroneyshow Twitter: @benmulroneyshow TikTok: @benmulroneyshow Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've been following the news, like really following it, you know how exhausting it can be. Politics, conflict, uncertainty, it's a lot to carry. And for many men, there's this expectation to stay calm, stay in control and not talk about how it's affecting you. But the truth is, you're allowed to feel overwhelmed.

You're allowed to say, I'm not okay right now. And trust me, I have been there. Whether it's the state of the world stress at home, or just feeling like you've got to have it all together and have all the answers, you don't have to hold it in. Better help is here to help with the world's largest network of licensed therapists. They've already supported over 5 million people, you can connect with a therapist online from wherever you are, no waitlist, no office visits. And if it's not the right fit you can switch anytime it's time to put your mental health on the agenda talk it out with better help visit better help comm slash Mulrooney today to get 10% off your first month that's better help h l p dot com slash Mulrooney

the all new 2025 kicks isn't just a bold new vehicle on the road it's Nissan's number one selling subcompact SUV. With expressive style and advanced tech, Kicks is number one. Right now, lease the 2025 Kicks for the equivalent of $65 weekly for 48 months. Hurry into your local dealer today. S front-wheel drive for 280 monthly with 3,495 down to 3.49%. Includes 0.5% loyalty reduction for qualifying Nissan owners condition supplies see Nissan.ca for details Welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Thanks for joining us on this Monday, July 14th, 2025. We talk a lot on this show about crime, the crisis of crime across this country,

but sometimes we can get caught in the high level stuff on the government side. What are they doing? How are they not helping? How are the laws written? And today I want to take a look rather at the other side of the equation, the impact of, of, of those choices on Canadians themselves. How are we dealing with, you know, with the rise of crime? How are, how are people, how are Canadians who are victims of those crimes feeling? How did they feel when their lives were upended

by a criminal element that has taken advantage of a situation that seems to prioritize their needs over the needs of honest Canadians who are just trying to live their lives? And we're joined in studio today by one gentleman, one Canadian who has been the victim, not of one home invasion, which would be a bridge too far, but two in the GTA.

He's here to share his story. He is not here to share his name. He wants to get the story out about the impact that this has had on him. But beyond that, he does not need anybody coming after him and we are going to respect his wishes. So please welcome to the show. Hi, thank you so much.

Yeah, so take me back to the first home invasion. Of course, so the first home invasion happened around end of May. And basically a bunch of guys tried to break into our house and I wasn't even in the country at the time. My sister and my boyfriend, they, my sister's boyfriend actually were the ones that dealt with it initially because they broke into their bedroom door, which is on the main floor.

So they got into the house. Yep. And they made it into their bedroom where they were sleeping. Yes. Yes. Okay. I'm pretty sure they tried to get in to take control of the house. I mean, they... But my sister's boyfriend did an absolutely exceptional job of making sure that they did

not make it past a foot and a half into the door. By doing what? Using everything in the room. He threw water bottles at him. He used a coat rack at him. He did everything possible. I mean, in that moment, like you have to act. It's not about taking a chance. Are these guys going to kill us?

Are these guys just here for the cars? You know, how are you supposed to guess? Yeah, you don't know what their intentions are. And you've been woken up out of your sleep. Your fight or flight response is triggered and he decided to fight. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Like initially he even said, you know, the way the glass breaks, it sounds like gunshots. And his first instinct was to protect my sister.

Like he was on top of her trying to protect her. She ran upstairs immediately to tell the rest of the family, this is happening, you know? And luckily the cops were there within five to six minutes. Okay, well that response time seems appropriate. So how were the cops contacted if he was busy, he was busy fending them off, but somebody else in the family called the cops? Exactly. So my sister ran up immediately.

She started calling the police and my dad, my mom, they all hopped on the phones to call the cops. My dad came down. By the time he came down, these guys were already on the way out because they started hearing the sirens coming in. I mean, my sister didn't even want my dad to go downstairs, of course, but the cops started coming in. They basically, my sister didn't even want my dad to go downstairs, of course, but

the cops started coming in. They basically ran out and they left through the woods and the cops couldn't even catch them in that moment. Were they ever apprehended? So they were actually apprehended up in Milton later on because they went on to do other stuff and they actually got in a car crash or I think they hit a pole or something. So they went on to do other stuff. And they actually got in a car crash or I think they hit a pole or something. So they went on to go do more crimes. Of course. Yeah, they wanted to do more crimes. And upon getting arrested, do you know if they got bail? Do you know? I believe the next day, they got bail the next day. Okay, so before we move on to the second one, I want to take a moment here because I have been very fortunate, I think, because we're living in a world where it does seem like these things are ubiquitous.

Like if you own a home, chance, it feels like by owning a home, you put a target on your back. So I don't know what it feels like to have your home invaded. And even though you weren't there, your family was at risk. When you eventually got home and when you talk to your family, was there a, did something change in them? Because in my, like my assumption is you're supposed to feel safer at home than anywhere in the world. This is your home.

It's there's a lock on the door and you're like, this is my place. Nobody comes into my place unless I invite them in. And that was thrown on its face. So talk to me about how your family felt. Talk to me how you felt when you got back from that trip. So first of all, I was in complete disbelief because they called me, I was in Europe at the time,

and they called me around 8.30, nine in the morning telling me this is happening. And first of all, I felt horrible that I wasn't there. Yeah. You know, like I was like, of course, the one time I'm not at home, this is happening. When I got home, everybody had changed. I mean, for I was telling everybody, I'm like, statistically impossible. This will never happen again.

And we've lived here for 13, 14, 15 years. And something like this would never happen again in the GTA. But for them, everything's changed. For them, they're worried about it. They're asking about security coming in at night. They must have had a difficult time falling asleep again, checking the locks. I mean, to me, that is such a traumatic event.

It would require talking it through with a mental health professional. Did anybody in your, has anybody in your home sought that help to talk to somebody, work their way through what must be a really traumatic event? Honestly, as a family, we are all very strong-minded, and we like making jokes out of things. Oh yeah, fair enough.

So we just, we get together, we laugh at ourselves, and we get over it. That's how we do things. Yeah, well, so, okay, so that's good, but what about the knowledge that the people who did it are still out there? They got bail the next day, as you said. That makes me furious, truly, truly. Makes you said. It that makes me furious. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Truly.

Makes you furious. Okay. So, so that's already bad, right? That's the, in my humble opinion, one of the worst things that can happen to a family in terms of your public's, it's, it's got a toxic, there's a toxic element to it that can corrode things in your life and make you just feel less than so. So you got that going on. And then and then it happens not once, but happens a second time. How long between the two incidents? Within four weeks. Within four weeks, your house is targeted a second time.

Yes. Now, what steps did you as a family take to beef up your security? Of course. I mean, so we, we took, we bought fire extinguishers because that's allowed. Pepper spray is obviously out of the question. So harmful to criminals, apparently. And we got some baseball bats because we all love playing baseball. So, you know, we decided we need to start practicing more often. So we got those. So when they broke in in the house, they broke in through a window?

Through a glass door. Okay. So what did you do that glass door over the month? Over the month. Like between the first and second interaction. Like did you say yourself? Because at my house, we've got that film that you put on it that if they break it, they can't get in.

It's like this protective film that makes it a lot harder to get through the glass door. Of course. I mean, honestly, after the first time, nobody in the house truly thought, oh, this is gonna happen again. What are the chances again? Do you have an alarm system at home?

Yes, yes we do. And so when they broke in the first time, did the alarm system go off? We didn't even arm it the first time. Right, but you armed it the second time? Yes, we did. Okay, so the second time, so now you're in the first time, did the alarm system go off? We didn't even arm it the first time. Right, but you armed it the second time? Yes, we did. Okay, so the second time, so now you're in the home. Yes.

You're in the home and who's sleeping where? So I sleep in the basement with my fiance. Okay. And on the main floor, my sister and my sister's boyfriend, And on the top floor are my parents. Do you guys put locks on your bedroom doors now? We've always had locks on our bedroom doors. But I mean, when something like this is happening, you don't know what's actually going on.

So I live right below where the glass door was broken. And when I was sleeping, I'm imagining somebody shoveling snow, because know, because I'm like, Oh, wow, what else could that noise be? Right? Yeah. So it's, it's hard to imagine what's happening. Yeah. Well, listen, we're going to take a quick break because I want this conversation to continue. The fact that you're here sharing this story, it means a lot to me. I know it means a lot to

the listeners across this country. We're going to talk about this second break in we're going to talk about your interaction with the criminals, as well as your interactions with the police, what happened afterwards. And, you know, I want to go over I want to go back to what we said off the top of this conversation. I want to talk about, you know, the laws as you see them having, having, having endured the consequences of a legal system. I want to ask you what you would like to see changed so that this never happens to anybody else.

Thanks so much. Don't go anywhere. And to our listeners, don't go anywhere. This is the Ben Mulroney Show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. We're continuing our conversation with a young man from the greater Toronto area who he and his family were the victims of not one but two home invasions. And in the previous segment, we talked about the first home invasion and we've moved on to the second that happened not a month after the first. And so thanks so much for continuing the conversation. So you and the family beefed up your security.

You were more vigilant. You talked about how, you know, as a family, you deal with stuff like this with humor, but you thought you were ready if anybody else was gonna come and try to kick down the door and come in a second time. They actually managed to do it a second time. Talk to me about what was different this time

besides the fact that you were there this time. Of course. Well, this time they did not choose a bedroom to break into. They actually broke into our living room space and they fully made it into the house. And this time there were three to four guys. They were all in the house. And one time there were three to four guys, they were all in the house, and one of them was actually armed with a gun,

maybe more. Had an actual, like a, and was it a handgun? I didn't even see what type of gun it was, but considering the bullet was nine millimeters, I imagine it was a handgun. So you were saying before that you slept in the basement. Yes, correct. So were you part of the pushback against them?

So I was actually the first on the scene. Okay. And when I got up there, my instinct was, I don't know what's going on, but these guys are not going to be a threat to my family. No. So you said you were ready with baseball bats. Yes, yes, of course. So it's four criminals invading your home. No. So you, and you said you were ready with baseball bats. Yes, yes, of course. So who, so it's, it's four, four criminals invading your home.

Yes. And you and any, who else joined the fray? So my sister's boyfriend, he was right behind me. He was there within- And you both have a baseball bat. Correct, yes. And, and talk to me about going toe to toe with these guys.

Of course. So our expectation was they're bringing baseballs. So that's why we brought the bats right out. We came right up and we just went at them, you know, cause I didn't know what they had. Anybody who isn't a family member is getting sucked. Absolutely. I mean, I don't know what's going on, right?

Like my first- You don't know what their intentions are. No, no. You don't know if they're there to steal something or to hurt you. Absolutely. Or hurt somebody you love. And so you are erring on the side of,

it's my family or somebody else. It's a binary choice. I'm either taking them down or they're taking me down. Absolutely. And they definitely did not expect that response. Just the way they started just scammering and just running away, they did not expect that whatsoever.

In all that, you know, kerfuffle, the guy actually took a shot at me. So one of them has their gun. Yes. And took it, it's dark, right? It's, it wasn't that dark. The lights were on at that point. The lights in the house were on, so you can see.

And so one of them who is taking a beating. No, no, not one of the guys who was taking a beating. Yeah, because there's two of you and four of them. And so one of them who's, I guess, removed from the fight, pulls out his gun and takes aim at you. And shoots at you in your house, missing you. And one bullet? One bullet and it lodges in the wall behind you.

Correct. And I didn't, when I was in this fight, and it lodges in the wall behind you. Correct. And I didn't, when I was in this fight, I didn't even hear the gun go off. No. That's the best part. Yeah, yeah, because you're focused on, you're focused on defense. Yes. Right?

You're not out there looking for a fight, but the fight came to you and you were ready for it. Exactly. Okay. So, talk to me about how the, how everything, the temperature got turned down. Did some of them flee? Yes. So what happened was when this was going on, my sister had also come out with fire extinguishers.

Right, right. Because you said before the break that, again, and I didn't know this, it's illegal to use pepper spray to ward off criminals. Of course, that's too kind. It's too kind. Like that, that's the most, that's the, it's a perfect thing to protect your house.

It's non-lethal and it'll disarm them completely. They'll be focused on that and not anything else. And they'll want to run away. If it's good enough to get rid of a bear in the forest, it's be good enough for criminals, but you're not legally allowed to use that. You would be charged with assault. So instead you used what?

Fire extinguisher. So she had a fire extinguisher. Correct, yes. And in using it, what happened? So when she came out of the room, like the hallway, she started using it everywhere, which kind of, it made it seem like a smoke grenade had gone off. Okay. Right? Blinding me, blinding, I'm sure the guy who took a shot at me, maybe most likely my sister actually saved my life. Yeah. But it also prevented you from focusing on the task at hand, which was getting these guys to leave. Absolutely.

I don't think I've ever felt better being completely blinded with a baseball bat, you know. But you could have hit a family member. Yes, it could have been possible. But honestly, at that point, like I mean, I looked at my sister like, seriously? Yeah. But my point is, I I mean it's such a backwards thing. Yeah that I said you're allowed using something to blind them Yes, at least temporarily, but it has to be something that will also blind you. Yes, that's nonsense

Yes, okay. So let's so now we focus on You guys have the upper hand correct. So how many of them escape? So all the guys ran away. So one of the guys I was initially fighting with, he was a little disorientated after fighting with me for a little bit. So he, instead of running out, actually ran downstairs. Right, okay.

So now he's trapped downstairs. Correct. Okay, so everyone leaves, you got one left. Yes. You got him cornered like a rat. Yeah. So he ran downstairs. Initially, I actually ran outside to see what's going on.

And then I ran back inside. Yeah. And that's when I heard my sister's boyfriend say, hey, he's running to the other side because we have two different stairwells. Yeah. So I ran to the other end to cut him off. Yes. Yeah.

So now you both have them on either end. Yes. And what happens then? So at that point when he sees me, he decides to obviously turn around and run the other way. Yeah. And he runs back into my sister's boyfriend and he runs into my dad. Yeah. And they take him down initially.

And he starts pleading for his safety. Yeah, he's actually still trying to escape. So he gets up and he starts trying to run again. Yeah. And at this point I put the bat down. I tackle him to the ground and He tries getting up again, which I tell him very kindly. Please stay. Yeah Yeah, and at this point how long has this been going on and are the cops on their way? Yes, the cops are on their way the whole time. Once we had him down. We we didn't touch him Yeah, we just like told him to stay there.

And he, like, we tried to ask him questions like, who are you? How old are you? He, I believe, actually said he's 13 at one point, which he's very clearly not. He's not. And we're not going to reference his name. But if you look at his Facebook page, it's very clear he and his friends on his sort of profile are flashing what looks to be gang signs. This is not somebody who's looking to live a life of peace. I don't want to run out of time, so I do want to talk about your interaction with the police this time, because this caught you off guard.

Absolutely, absolutely. So our first interaction with the police was my mom actually calling them when all of this is going down. Yeah. Right? And my mom's on the phone. My parents fully heard the gunshot and they told the police we heard a gunshot. This is happening. And then the dispatcher is asking, how do you know it's a gunshot?

What? It's, it's like, how is that? How's that germane to the conversation? There's a violent home invasion going on and one of the victims says there's a gunshot. Take them at their word and move on. Yeah, and you know, my mom's like, we've had guns, we know what guns sound like. It's a goddamn gunshot.

Yeah, okay, so they're questioning you at that point. But from what I understand, they were treating you like you might have done something wrong until they saw the bullet In the wall. Absolutely. So initially their questioning was more focused on do we use excessive force? That's a nuts. They know you've been the cops No, they've come to your house before for a home invasion. Absolutely. And this guy's is lying on the ground or something He does Is he presenting with massive wounds? He had some injuries, yes. Yeah, well no, no s Sherlock. I mean, he walked

into, I mean, you must have been really frustrated in that moment because you're, the adrenaline is pumping and you are not getting the response from the police that you were hoping, right? Yes. Well, actually, by the time they got to questioning me personally, they had actually already found the bullet, which they had not disclosed to us. I mean, we all thought somebody had fired a gun. I didn't hear it personally, but everybody thought they fired the gun outside, right? When they found the bullet inside, that kind of changed their line of questioning. Yeah. So real quick, and if it's all right, I'm going to keep you until after the break because I got a couple more questions for you. But, um,

did they catch all four of these guys? We don't know anything. They haven't been informed. Don't know anything. Uh, and the guy that they did catch, what happened to him? Uh, well, they didn't disclose much after he was charged. Yeah. Uh, but, uh, we don't know what what's happened with them. They have police haven't told us. There've been no updates. Okay. So to the listeners of the show, don't go anywhere.

When we come back, we're gonna have, got one last question for you, which is how do you feel about where you live? How do you feel about your personal safety? And how do you feel that our country is doing dealing with this sort of crime? It's an important conversation. Don't go anywhere.

This is the Ben Mulroney Show. Don't sit still. Grab yours at Osmos today and taste why everyone's walking different now. Limited time only. Don't miss the collab that's actually worth the hype. This is the Ben Mulroney Show and never in the history of the show have we had a guest go into a third segment, but never in the history of the Ben Mulroney show have we had a topic I think worthy of going that long. We're talking with a gentleman from the Greater Toronto area who and he and his family were victims of not one but two home invasions. We've just gone through the entire or the both ordeals and we're going to end this conversation with a few takeaways First of all, are you moving?

We are yes, and and it's because of this it's a big part of it. Yeah, it's a big part of it Okay, so you've been forced out of your home. It's that place that you viewed as your sanctuary your safe space Yes, but where where is safe anymore? You've now been through something that none of us ever want to go through but more and more Canadians are going through What do you want the listeners the viewers of the Ben Mulroney show to know? About sort of the system that we're living in right now You know unfortunately the system that we're living in right now Incentivizes criminals to break in. How so? How does it incentivize?

I believe it was the police chief who basically told everybody that, hey, if criminals break into your home, make sure your keys and everything are available for them so they can take things right away. So everything's waiting on a silver platter ready to go. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, that's got, but it's one thing for me to be frustrated by that as somebody who hasn't been a victim, it's, it's gotta be even more frustrating, angering in fact, to know that if you believe that there's a line between a statement like that and the actions that caused you this harm, you gotta be really angry. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

We are look, we are trying to have the new the justice minister, Sean Fraser on the show from who's very open to coming on the show to be the first liberal cabinet minister that we have on the show. Is there one thing that you would like to tell the Minister of Justice that maybe about your story? Yes, absolutely. I believe that the fact that we were afraid that we even did anything wrong in this scenario, where we were attacked, where anybody in my family could have been raped, hurt, killed. Yeah, in your own home. In our own home. We're the ones who were scared to say that we did anything to somebody who could have done all this to us. You know what? I think that's the perfect way to end this because that is a demonstration that we're living in the upside down

as it relates to this sort of thing, that you're in your own home and at any point you were made to feel like the actions that you took were inappropriate and could have had you run afoul of the law. So I wanna thank you for coming in. I wanna thank you for sharing your story and I wanna tell you on behalf of everybody here at the show,

we're sorry this happened to you. And I believe you acquitted yourself properly. And I hope that wherever you land next as a family, whatever home you have next, I want you to hope it's everything that this house was not. And I hope that the system is finally righted so that everybody can feel safe in their home. So thank you very much for being here. Thanks.

All right. We're going to move on from this first person account of a terrible situation. We're gonna get some commentary from a chorus radios crime specialist, former Toronto police officer himself, former police detective, Hank Itzinga. Hank, welcome to the show. Hey, good morning, Ben.

Thanks for having me on. So when you hear this story of a family that was targeted not once, but twice for a home invasion and you hear that I Mean, I didn't know that you can't use pepper spray to defend yourself, but you can use fire extinguishers this to me It seems like a comedy of errors and it would be it's not a comedy because it's the impact that it has on a family So real and so negative. Yeah, I mean, you can't use pepper spray, but you could use bear spray, you could use a fire extinguisher. And that's the ridiculousness of some of this legislation. It was just tested within the last year, right? And ultimately, it's not the police who make that judgment on whether the use of force that you've used is

rational in the circumstances. It's the courts. It's the triers of fact. Why is that? Hank, we got to delve into that. Like this, there's, there's silly aspects to this. Why, if I'm, if I'm just asleep in a home that I've paid for and somebody comes in and I don't know what their intent is, but my goodness, the fact that someone would break into my home in the middle of the night, I think I should have the right to assume the worst

of their intentions. And worrying about is the force that I'm using appropriate in that situation is nonsensical. I would, I'm either gonna fight or I'm gonna flee. And if I fight, I'm gonna fight with all my might. And the fact that there is even any weight to the, any consideration to the criminal who came into my house is just crazy talk.

I couldn't agree with you more. And sorry, I've gotten you worked up. And then, you know, we had this discussion before and it's frustrating. And, you know, the baseball bat is a very realistic response to what is going on here, let alone what other weapons you could have available. My wife's grandfather, remember he was in his 80s and woke up with two people in his bedroom one night and he took a baseball bat to them. The thought of him getting prosecuted for responding to that, and he certainly got the better of them, they were never caught. But I think it's a perfectly appropriate response. But any excess use of that use of force, that's the person's responsibility

who's doing it. And it may not make a lot of sense and rarely are you going to see a conviction in those circumstances, but it does exist. And self-defense is definitely a justification. But like I said, that's up to the courts to determine whether it was reasonable or not. So there's not a lot of leeway for police. The fact that there are, that a lot of people who are defending themselves have to go through

the cost and time to defend themselves when the entire thing started by somebody invading their space. Look, I don't want to live in the United States where people have guns and they can, but there is an absolute right to property in the United States, but there's also an absolute right to life and security, which I know that we don't have

an absolute right to property here, but don't we have an absolute right to security and to life? And if somebody comes into our home, can't we assume that they're coming for our life or our security? Yeah. And your life is in danger if that happens. But then how are we, how does that person whose life and security were challenged? Why is, why is any degree of force that they use questioned and, and, and subject sometimes to criminal prosecution. Yeah.

And that's where we might need some of these castle laws like you do see in the United States, right? Now we need appropriate punishments for this. All we have now in response to those home invasion charges is some legislation under the break and enter section of the criminal code where it's an aggravated circumstance, but it doesn't increase the available penalties at all. So. Look at like by the grace of God,

by the grace of God, did my guest not kill one of these people? And what I mean is his intent might not be to kill somebody, but if an aluminum bat connects with the right part of the skull at the right time, it's lights out for that guy. And all it takes is one swing. And I'm sorry, there should not be a court in the land

that should hear that case that that person did not use appropriate force. Like this is, it's nonsense that if that guy comes in with a gun and the homeowner has a baseball bat, and just because as they're fighting, he connects and cracks his skull and the guy dies, like I'm sorry, I'm not sorry. That guy knew what he was doing,

that he was putting himself in a position to get hurt by going into somebody's house. I don't understand how we're living in a time where the criminal's life is prioritized in any way. Where does this get fixed? Is it at the federal level? criminal's life is prioritized in any way. Where does this get fixed? Is it at the federal level? Well, I mean, you have a court process there that has to take place.

So is there a shortcut there to get to that justifiable use of force determination? That's something that could possibly be looked at with legislation at the federal level for sure. Yeah, I mean, to me, it's very sick. If you break into somebody's house and you die in the process of that crime by the person who is defending his home,

there should be nothing that happens to the person defending their home, nothing. You come in my house and I got kids in there, I got a mother in there, that's it. I will do anything to protect them and there should be zero impact on the on the person's life who is defending their home. That is my humble opinion, more than happy to be proven right, but I don't see anybody changing my mind. Yeah, I mean they've been victimized already, they've been traumatized already.

I mean you heard about that acquittal a couple of weeks ago of the fellow in the school in Toronto who had a knife pulled out on him and he pulled out a gun and shot the fellow with the knife and the jury acquitted him. But he had to go through that court process as well. Hank, we gotta leave it there. Yeah, we gotta leave it there,

but thanks so much for adding to this conversation. We appreciate it. My pleasure, we gotta leave it there, but thanks so much for adding to this conversation. We appreciate it. My pleasure, Ben. Take care. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. This has been one heck of an hour. We spent a lot of time with a young man who came in to give us his harrowing account

of how he and his family dealt with not one, but two home invasions in the greater Toronto area. And part of our conversation was on how one is allowed to defend oneself inside one's home. And it is very confusing as to the use of force and how much force you're allowed using before running a foul of the law. Our guest said that pepper spray was illegal.

It was reinforced by Hank Yatsenga, who's a former police officer, who said that bear spray is allowed, but pepper spray was illegal. It was reinforced by Hank Yatsenga, who's a former police officer, who said that bear spray is allowed, but pepper spray is illegal. And then I got a tweet that said, you can use pepper spray in self-defense. What is illegal is carrying it with the intent to use it to injure someone.

Then then I went on to Google and ask AI if it was legal. No, pepper spray is generally illegal in Canada, is classified as a prohibited weapon under the criminal code. So listen, who's right, who's wrong, it doesn't matter. The fact is, nobody knows what you're allowed to do when you're defending your family against somebody who has broken in.

And that is unacceptable. You should be able to know that defending your life, defending your property, defending your home and defending your loved ones is, you have complete agency over the choices you make. You didn't ask for the fight, quite literally. The definition of not asking for a fight is being asleep in your own bed and somebody comes in.

That's, like you look for the fight, but you sure as Shinola are going to end it. You should have the right to that. Let's take your calls at, here at the Ben Mulroney show. Mark, welcome to the show. Yeah, hello? Yes, Mark, what do you think?

This has been a heck of a conversation. What are your thoughts? Yeah, it's disgusting. It's infuriating. It's justuriating. It's just every day you see these reports about the drunk driver guy, the five-time you know, banned, the three-time banned, everything. All the crime that's being perpetrated on innocent civilians and they're getting away

with it. Every single time they're getting away with it. So what, like it's not a chicken or egg thing. Like we know I personally think we know where the change has to come from. It's got to come from our governments. 100%. And that's what I've always said. I've always said that no politician will ever do a change to mandate to regulations until

it personally affects themselves. I mean, I don't see why I mean, human beings are empathetic people. I can I can look across at my guests who just told me his story, and I can put myself in his, it doesn't have to happen to me, I can appreciate that it happened to somebody else. And you think so. Yeah, you would think so, you know, but that's, that's why we pay politicians and we and we hire them to do the job. Yeah, but it seems like when

they get in positions of power, wherever their political strikes, pull them, yeah, wherever their favor seems to pull them. And then that's where they say that's the lane they stick with. Then they forget and forget everything else. Mark, thank you very much for the call. Appreciate it. All right. Let's let's move on to Nick. Nick, thanks so much for calling in. So what would you do if you were in the position of of my guest? I'm going to make it very short because I'm a family man. And if you're forcing yourself to my home, I will protect my family, my three females

at home with my nails and my teeth and whatever I have. Why? Because the government and the police are not doing anything. The criminals on the road. And I have to do that. All that means, even if I get my life for them, I have to do that. You're not welcome at my home.

You broke in. So what you want me to do, my friend? I agree. My friend, but anyway. No, I agree. And thank you for that call, Nick. I really do appreciate it. And like fundamentally, like I don't know what I would do,

but if my fight response was triggered, I don't know that in that moment, I wouldn't see red. I don't know if I wouldn't just be focused exclusively on making sure the threat was stopped. And if it meant hitting the guy with a baseball bat till he stopped moving, I don't know that I wouldn't do that. And I hate living in a world where as you are woken from your sleep and you have no

idea what the threat is and how bad it is, you have to sit there and ask yourself, am I using the appropriate amount of force to stop this? No, no, no, no, no. That's, look, if the guy's gotten in, it's too late for that, right? The appropriate amount of force is the alarm system I put on the house. And if he breaks through that,

then all bets should be off, as far as I'm concerned. Victor, welcome to the show. What do you think? Oh, hi, is that me? Yes. Yeah, sorry. Your guest you think? Oh, hi. Is that me? Yes. Yeah. Sorry. I was your guest that you had on. I wish he'd be a little more straightforward. He's saying it's up to the court. Yes, to some degree. However, Wait, wait, wait, which guest are you talking about the person who was the victim of the

home invasions or my other guest? Your guest, the crime specialist, Hank. Yes, yes. Because everything initiates and starts with the police. They determine that the excessive force now it's up to the courts. Well, shame on them. Yeah, no, and I agree. I agree with you. I think that the cops in the moment, I'm pretty sure they have the latitude to decide whether something escalates to the courts.

I mean, they don't have to press charges. It's not automatic. Unless it is, unless the criminal code dictates that something has to happen. But absolutely. And I think that from there, I think that stands the start of the problem is the police officer.

Now I can understand he broke in the house, he ran off, I chased him. That's a different scenario but within the confinement of our dwelling. If it's in your home, again like that guy is a threat. He's not supposed to be there, he wasn't invited in and he is not a threat until he is either down for the count or arrested or fleeing. And as far as I'm concerned like I don't know what that means. I'm gonna beat that guy until he is no longer a threat. And if in the process of doing it, he loses his life, that's not on me. But thank you for the call.

Let's go to Steve. Steve, what do you think of this whole thing? Hey Ben, how you doing today? I'm well, thank you. I just wanted to say I do live in the GTA. I've never been broken into I have 110 pound German Shepherd. So I'm pretty sure he's a bit of a deterrent. But I can also say that I'm a legal gun owner. And that if it comes down to them or my family, what kind of gun you own, if I may ask, I own several hunting rifles. And I can tell you that they're very, very high powered.

And it would not take much, but I can tell you that if it comes down to it, I would rather, the old saying goes, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six. I like that, Lehi. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. We have time for a couple more.

Let's go to Frank. Frank, where do you think the problem lies? Good morning, Ben. I agree with you that it's become much more of a common problem in society, so the law needs to change. What I think may be happening, you recall not too long ago, there were a number of people that acted as good Samaritans. They basically had to take control of an individual that, he may have been mentally ill, but he was kind of out of his mind at the moment. They restrained him. He ended up dying, and the individuals who act as good Samaritans didn't end up

getting charged. I think the law in Canada will eventually evolve, taking to account these specific cases that have come out, and eventually there will be an appeals court decision, say in Ontario or Supreme Court across Canada and that would be binding on all provinces. I would like think and hope that judges use wide discretion taking into account that this is a much more common problem in society and they need to change the law. I love that. Thank you very much. I appreciate it from your lips to the judge's ears because look at if a criminal knows that if they walk into somebody's house and they may not walk out. I think that disincentivizes a criminal call me crazy. But it seems like if they if they if

they care about their life, they're not going to take that risk. We got time for one more call and let's make that Ben what a fitting name. Ben welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Good morning, Ben. Real quick, before the break mentioned, it's unbelievable that someone entering your house, you would get charged for harming them in the course of- You could, yeah, it's a possibility.

And I don't think that the person protecting themselves should even have to consider that. It shouldn't be on their mind. Absolutely, there is no limits what I would do. But cops use that justifiably all the time when they're in an altercation and they shoot their harm the perpetrator whatever in the course of defending themselves they say it's been defense is it the state only gets the power to defend themselves but not the average

citizen look it's a very good question incredibly well we're gonna leave you we're gonna leave that question up there for a debate for another day but thank you to everybody for joining us Thanks for Hank for joining us and most importantly I want to thank my guest for coming in and sharing his harrowing story. We definitely appreciate it Oh, yeah. All you shark-tastic fanatics here for summer's best beach partying. They're all here. Hammerheads, great whites, so many sharks I can't even name them all. That's right, Daddy-O.

Show me that smile. Sharkfest. All week long. On National Geographic.