The Ben Mulroney Show - Hot Takes Monday! Are Canadians buying into our continued foreign generosity?

Episode Date: May 4, 2026

Guest: Dimitri  Soudas, Former Director of Communications for Prime Minister Stephen Harper  Guest: Max Fawcett, Lead Columnist for Canada's National Observer -  If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by the National Payroll Institute, the leader for the payroll profession in Canada, setting the standard of professional excellence, delivering critical expertise, and providing resources that over 45,000 payroll professionals rely on. I always love this part of the show because I bring on two big brains, and I get to take a step back. I'm just kidding. I love to have this conversation every Monday with Dmitri Soutis and Max Fawcett.

Dimitri, of course, is the former director of communications for Prime Minister Stephen Harper. And Max Fawcett is the lead columnist. for Canada's National Observer. Happy Monday, guys. Happy Monday, Go Habs go. Go Habs, go. Yeah, go Habs go. If we can win a game with nine shots on goal, good luck, Buffalo. That's all I got to say. And at least, yes, I'm going to say this because intrepid's there.

We had a, you know, the Habs made it. The news today is they've made into the second round of the playoffs. And the Leafs, the news today is they got a new GM. So same, same. Same, same. All right. Let's listen, it's not a good day if you are a refugee in Canada learning that you got to pay 30% of dental, vision, mental health care and assistive device costs, including wheelchairs, and a $4 per prescription co-pay. Is this, I'm going to start with you, Max. Is this a step in the right direction, or is this a sign of larger problems? I think it's a step towards restoring public trust in the immigration system. And that is trust that has been, you know, really badly eroded.

over the last few years we can certainly find culprits all over the place but you know I think we our success as a country depends an awful lot on our ability to continue in integrating people into our into our country and into our society effectively and we have to restore that public trust and so you know we are in a moment right now where people are feeling uh economically precarious you know gas prices are higher food prices are higher and there are folks out there who will point to immigrants getting things for, you know, quote unquote free and try to scapegoat them, this, I think, takes some air out of their tires. And I think we can afford to be generous as a country, but we also have to ensure that the public is bought in on that generosity. I don't think I could have said

it any better than that, Max, but I also like your use of the word buy-in at the end. And, Demetri, there's an element of for the refugees getting some skin in the game. Hey, this, you're here. that you're committed in this small way? So first, let's make sure we're using the proper terms. We're talking about asylum seekers. Asylum seekers are those who come to Canada to claim refugee status. And the reality is it's not their fault.

And I'll give you some numbers. Before Justin Trudeau, we used to get about 19,000 asylum seekers annually. This number has ballooned to more than 200. thousand annually since post-COVID. The amount of time it takes the government to make a decision because the decision is, yes, we accept your claim, therefore you become a refugee, therefore you get to stay in Canada, you get a job, you start contributing. But all those others who are not genuine asylum seekers, I'll give you an example.

People who come from the European Union, who come from the United States, who come from safe third countries and claim asylum should simply be returned to that safe third country. The problem is the following, is that this program used to cost about $60 million a year when Stephen Harper was Prime Minister, and it is projected to cost more than $1 billion by 2030 based on the latest report by the parliamentary budget officer. And then we wonder why Canadians are fed up,

including immigrant Canadians, who came here, who worked hard. So it's all about analyzing and making a decision on these more than 200,000 asylum seekers requests, figuring out who is a genuine refugee, welcoming them to Canada, people who want to work hard, play by the rules, raise their family, and everybody else, please go back. And look, the number, I think, is a good one, Max, is it doesn't, to me, feel like a punitive number. This is not something that we are putting on these people as any sort of punishment. This is, to me, what feels like fair. And it's sort of in line with what we expect low income and medium income seniors to pay for a great number of things. And those are people who've paid into the system their entire lives. Yeah, I agree.

You know, it's a reasonable, you know, as I think you said, you know, skin in the game of one. wanting to participate in this country and wanting to be part of all the things that we offer here. You know, I think, you know, again, we can afford to be generous, but we also have to get that public buy-in on that. And Dimitri is right, you know, that the system has been allowed to creep and grow in ways that have undermined public trust. And, you know, again, this should be a bipartisan consensus that immigration brings us strength, that brings us opportunity. And we have lost the threat on that in this country over the last few years. We have to get it back. And yet, listen, if we want to keep giving money to Ukraine, we've got to find it elsewhere.

And Mark Carney has committed an additional, what, $270 million to Ukraine, bringing our total to almost $26 billion. I believe that per capita, we're the highest sort of funder to Ukraine. I don't have a problem with supporting a democracy like Ukraine, especially when countries like Canada promise that if they get it. gave up their nuclear weapons, we would be there for them. So this is sort of the bed that we helped make. We've got to lie in it.

Dmitri, I wonder what you think. So a couple of points on that. Point number one, the vast majority of that $26 billion that you referenced, Ben, the vast majority is loan guarantees. Loan guarantees, which means it won't have a financial impact on Canada because Ukraine would have to default. Its debt would be restructured and eventually Canada would not actually have to pay for those loans. But, you know, this is exactly what...

So the first topic we touched on, it's exactly why traditionally all Canadians would be united behind the idea of supporting Ukraine unequivocally. And fundamentally, I still believe Canadians do. But this is why Canadians are saying, well, we're spending billions on refugees. We're spending billions on Ukraine. We're spending billions in foreign aid while Canadians are lining up at food banks. While the younger generation says, will I be able to afford... putting a down payment on the House. So I reject the idea that fundamentally

Canadians oppose the idea of supporting traditional allies and democracies like Ukraine. But there's an old Greek expression that says, you know, if you don't look after your home, it would fall on you and collapse upon you. We need to make sure that Canadians have confidence that their government is putting them first before we do everything else.

Max, I just have a feeling we're all going to agree on this. We're going to be annoyingly agreeable again. You have to talk about oil and gas or something. But yeah, no, I, you know, I am on the same page there. I, you know, I think the level of mistrust in certain quarters around this, you know, a lot of it goes back to COVID and social media. And there are just people who want to be conspiratorial and suspicious about almost everything. But Dimitri is right. If we are not taking care of young people, if we are not taking care of our seniors, if people are going hungry, then they are going to start asking questions about money that is spent in other places.

and other parts of the world. And so again, we can afford to be generous, but we have to earn, you know, the social capital, the social credit to do that. You know what? Let me throw one thing at you because I keep reading about this anti-corruption probe into Zelensky and his government. I have no idea or any way to validate whether or not it's real or not.

But there are a lot of people who are pushing back on this, on the money flowing from Canada to Ukraine, saying before we give them any more money, can we at least make sure it's going to the right place? Whoever wants that can pick it up. No takers. The only thing I will add very quickly, are there chances that some of the money,

whether it's the European Union or Canada, are sending to Ukraine, is not being used in the most ethical of ways? The answer is, yes, of course. Corruption exists in Ukraine, just like corruption has existed in Canada. Remember this sponsorship scandal? But here's my point, and here's the point that I make to people who talk about this.

This is a binary choice. What is the other option? Allow Russia to expand into Ukraine, then into Poland, then into Latvia. So yes, there must be check and balances, but it remains a binary choice. Yeah, it is. And can I just make a quick point? There's a lot of folks who want Canada to step up and live up to our NATO funding requirements, our NATO commitments. Well, that's what this looks like.

You know, us spending money in Ukraine, selling them weapons, giving them loan guarantees is part of our NATO commitment. And there probably isn't a better way to be supporting Europe and supporting NATO than by supporting Ukraine. Because as Dimitri points out, you know, if we surrender to the Russians here, if we leave Ukraine to its fate, the Russians aren't going to stop. They will move into Poland. They will move into Latvia. And the cost will just get higher and higher.

All right. Well, when we come back, I'm going to see if I can get these guys to discerning. We're going to talk about whether public servants should be headed back to the office for four. Oh, my goodness. Perish the thought four full days a week. And is Canada going to join the European Union? That's next right here on the Ben Moly show. Welcome back.

And my thanks go to Dimitri and Max for sticking around. All right, here's one that maybe we can find some disagreement on. Public servants have been told the pandemic is over. The pandemic is over. Time to go back to the office four full days a week. Unions are unhappy. and the public servants themselves are unhappy as well for some, I think, ridiculous reasons. But the most valid reason, Dimitri, is they're showing up and there aren't enough desks for them.

And so I think there's some issues with the public servants kind of sort of being told, like, grow up and go back to work. But also maybe this is a condemnation of the liberal government for ballooning the size of the public service and not building enough. additional desks. I mean, I think it went up 17 or 20% during the first two years of the pandemic. Didn't matter if people were working from home and lobehold, our buildings are too small. Well, there's two options. You either buy more desks or you say thank you to some of these public servants. And I think that this is something

that attaches very well to the first two things we talked about. Again, spending everywhere and people feel left out. The average, Canadian feels left out. So we need to reduce the size of the public service. And my only disappointment is that it's only four days a week and not five days a week. Max, the man who bested Pierre Poliev in the last federal election ran on a platform of protecting these very people. And we're literally seeing that the buildings are exploding at the seams as they come back to the office. I would love to know how he, Bruce Fanjoy is going

to explain to his constituents what the heck's going on well i'm sorry to disappoint you but we're not going to disagree here either um look i yeah he's going to have a he's going to have a hard time he's going to have a hard time explaining to some of his constituents why they have to go back to the office four or five days a week but no one outside of that bubble uh is going to be sympathetic to to anyone claiming injury or or hardship by going to go having to go back into the office um look like COVID was a very unique experience. Working from home is great. I certainly enjoy working from home.

But when you're part of a big team and the federal government is a big team, you have to be in the same space as each other. You have to go for lunch with people. You have to be around your colleagues to do the best work you can do. And oh, as an added benefit, it'll bring more vitality to the downtown core in Ottawa,

which has really kind of suffered in recent years. So I just don't have any real sympathy for people who are being paid by the taxpayer, by the federal government, to go to work and who don't want to go into work. Sorry, those are the turns of your employment. Yeah. Like it or lump it. That's what I, I had a woman call in once, and she was very upset with me.

And she laid out chapter and verse all the reasons why she should stay home. And every single one of them was a problem that I'm sure could be identified in so many different people across the country. It wasn't specific to being a public servant. And I had to tell her she wasn't special and she didn't like that. and that did not go up, but that is the problem. There's something about public service exceptionalism that I do not believe is going to land with people. Let's move on to our final topic, and I know we'll find a way to disagree here.

Is Mark Carney moving us closer to the European Union because it makes sense to create a counterpoint with Donald Trump, or is the grand bargain that he's trying to strike actually more accountable? into us joining the European Union. And for those who say article 49 of the European treaty says we can't, well, that's as simple as changing it. I'll start with you, Dimitri. Well, I will be the first to run my elbows-up campaign and say no to 51 and no to 28 either. I think Mark Carney needs to focus a lot more of his time, making sure that we are

unlocking our own wealth, whether it's natural resources, whether it's intra-provincial trade barriers. We need to strengthen our economy. Yes, the Europeans are a valuable asset. We can do more trade with them. But ultimately, whether we like it or not, our closest neighbor, and we are going through very difficult times with our closest neighbor, because he or she has become a bit wonky and I will not say crazy. Eventually, we'll renormalize and that relationship will need to be rebuild. Max? Yeah. I mean, look, Wonky is a very generous way of describing what's going on in the United States right now. And I think the prime minister's point here and the work that he's doing

with the European Union is to say that if there is going to be a rules-based order going forward where, you know, international relations aren't just a result of the size of your economy, the size of your army, the size of your power, it is going to be located in Europe. The United States may come back to sanity. It may come back to being a little less hostile towards us. But I think it has made clear, certainly the Trump administration has made clear, they're just not interested in a rules-based order. They're not interested in following the rules if the rules are not favorable for them. And I think we need to be part of a rules-based order. We are not a big country. We do not have a giant military. We never will. And so we depend on

people's willingness to follow and create good rules, rules of commerce, rules of trade, rules of immigrant flows, whatever it might be. And I think there's value in us playing a larger role in that conversation. Yeah. Well, I was doing a little research today. And if the amount of work that would be required, let's just assume for a second that it was on the table and we were to join the European Union or do the work. First of all, I think Iceland was thinking about doing it and they gave up when they realized

the mountain of regulation and legal changes that would be required to coming into harmony with Brussels. But one of the first things we would have to do is come into harmony with their policies and their regulations as it involves agriculture, which also includes dairy, which means much like Donald Trump, they would want supply management to go the way the dodo bird. And I mean, yeah, yeah, Mack. I mean, I think Canadians have made it clear. They want to stand, we want to stand on our own. We don't want to rely on the Americans the way we have in the past. I don't think we want to trade that for relying on the Europeans.

We want to be independent and be strong on our own. And that means having good relations with the United States as much as we can and the Europeans, but not depending on either one of them. But the best way to have a strong relationship with the United States is to present at the negotiation table as the strongest version of ourselves. And I think that's what a lot of us are waiting on from this government. which is to take the steps that we need so that we can do that. So our economy, yes, participates in an integrated American, North American economy, but we are not reliant on them in the way that we have been in the past.

And I think that's why some of us are just getting impatient, Dimitri. We are, and we're getting impatient. In French, we say la Valour de la Parole de la Ben. It ultimately means that, you know, right now we're struggling with the idea that we signed an agreement with Donald Trump, in 2016, that at the time he said was the best trade agreement in the history of intergalactic relations. And now this agreement is the worst. So it's about not only having a partnership, but a partnership you can trust in and that the signature that is opposed on any agreement

that the word of the president is worth more than that signature, which is not the case right now, whether we like it or not. You know, we should spend a couple of minutes here talking about something that hasn't gotten the attention it deserves. And, you know, you're in Alberta there, Max. I mean, the thoughts on the Carney curse that he wore, he wore the Oilers tie in the morning and they lost the series in the evening. And I'll bring, I'll bring Dimitri into this. Dmitri, what do we have to do to ensure that the prime minister doesn't accidentally wear a Habs jersey or wear a hat or. or just jokingly refer to them in passing.

So Canadians are watching, especially habs fans, the email address is PM at p.m.gc.ca. Flood PMO with emails. A national petition, please do not wear a habs tiser. Max, what? Yeah, thoughts? Well, I just, I know there are folks who have been dying to be mad at the prime minister about something in Alberta.

You know, he's polling higher than Daniel Smith and Pierre Pahliav in the province. maybe this gives them something that they can finally get worked up over him. Listen, I joke and I don't think it's real, but just on the off chance that it might be, please, sir, stay very far away from anything that resembles a CH. And then to all my friends who are Leafs fans, whether we like it or not, Montreal is officially Canada's team. Go Habs, go.

Hey, study after study shows that Habs Nation is real. There are more Canadian fans and more parts of the country than anywhere else intrepid. All right. Disagree. Guys, I'm sorry you had to see that. I apologize. I'll deal with him during the break, but I appreciate you both.

Thank you so much. Until next week. Nice to see you, gentlemen. And thank you all for joining us. Don't forget, as always, we find you where you are on social media, on YouTube. Behind every F-35 jet is a Canadian company. Horizontal tails built in Winnipeg, engine sensors from Ottawa, and stealth composite panels crafted in Loonenberg to name just a few.

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