The Ben Mulroney Show - 'I F**ked up, I'm Sorry' Book, Managing Thanksgiving Stress, and Cannibalistic Dinosaurs?

Episode Date: October 10, 2026

On today's episode of "The Ben Mulroney Show," Ben welcomes several guests: First, Dr. Oren Amitay, Psychologist and author of "I F**ked up, I'm Sorry"   YouTube: @docamitay Next, Ben chats with Dr. Dominique Morisano, a professor of Social & Behavioural Health Science at the University of Toronto. They discuss managing the stress that large family gatherings may bring and Dr. Morisano provides tips ahead of Thanksgiving Day. DrMorisano.com Finally, Ben has a fascinating conversation regarding Canada's badlands, fossils and a possible dinosaur cannibal? Joshua Doyon, a master’s science student at the University of Alberta, presents a jaw-dropping discovery on the badlands. If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Learn more at Bloomberg.com. This is the band Maroonie show. Conversation on cancellation, let it roll. I have had this guest on the show a number of times, and every time I introduce him, I introduce him as the author of the upcoming book, I'm sorry, I effed up. And every time we end our conversation, I say, when the book's ready, come on back.

He says, of course. But then there's a reason I have to have him on before that. So the author of the upcoming book is in his title. Well, finally, the upcoming book is coming out. It's been released. So please welcome to the show, the author of I'm sorry, I effed up. Dr. Oran Amatee, welcome.

Thank you very much, Ben. By the way, it's I aft up. I'm sorry. I effed up. I'm sorry. Well, you can blame Danny Vaughn for putting it in the scam. I got no problem. She works remotely, so I can throw her under the bus metaphorically because she's physically not here. I know she works very hard. But anyway, congratulations.

Thank you so much. How long has this been a lifetime? Yeah, it's been gestating for a while. Yeah, about 15 years maybe. Okay. So you identified a reason to write this book 15 years ago or so. And I mean, lots change, so much changes in the world and it changes in your field. Also, you also change as a person over 15 years.

So talk to me about why you started writing the book and did the reason change over 15 years? Okay, well, first, the title came up when I was a teenager because, like I literally thought that, because I would have issues with my mom. And I would always say, if she could only say those three magic words, I effed up, or five words, I'm sorry. You know, I thought everything was going to be good. So that was the genesis of the title and the book. And then about 15 years ago, I said, I've got all this lecture material.

I've got all this clinical material that, you know, that certain things seem to resonate with people. Certain things kind of inspire them to finally start making some change in themselves. And even though the world has changed over all this time, the only thing that changed for me with the book is that it's even more important now than ever before because it's all about personal accountability, which is a lost

art. I just want to open a parenthesis for a second, Doc. You and I are not from the same cultural background, but I assume, can I ask how long your family's been in Canada? I've been here my entire life and they came

19, or mid-60s. Okay, so yeah, your mom, like my mom, came from somewhere else. And if we could just zoom out a little bit instead of focusing on the particulars of, well, my culture is this. Every mom, every mom who came off the boat is incapable of saying, I'm sorry, I effed up. Full stop. We all share that in common.

We all wish it weren't so, but it's just a fact. So when you were saying that, I was like, yeah, I've wished that too. But that's like wishing for a billion dollars. It's just, it ain't going to happen. right and by the way I should say my mom actually came I'm sorry I messed that up completely she came early 50s yeah and her family fled the holocaust her mother was in a concentration camp so her mother was a Holocaust survivor and yeah and then she came at six years old so having a mother who had that trauma for sure uh you know apologies and stuff like that was not a thing

that you know it was common there so you're absolutely right but personal responsibility you know I was just talking with Wyatt Sharp. He's a 17-year-old journalist who's written about the disillusioned generation. And, you know, we've watched almost an acceleration of divergence. And it's almost like we're in like my generation, your generation. We're not speaking the same generation of the ones that come after us. The language is changing. Well, yeah, the language is a language of victimhood.

The language is a language of, you know, that, you know, know, of disempowerment. And, you know, when it comes to personal accountability, it's they expect everybody else to be accountable for things that they didn't even do. Like we're, you know, we're, we are accountable for the, you know, the, the, the, the, what's called the sins of our past. Yeah. You know, and not even our past, our ancestors past. That's what so many people are being taught. So, you know, but when I work with young people, you know, it doesn't matter, I, I do promote for them the idea of taking personal accountability, by saying not out of a shame based thinking. It's more about if you do it, you're going to function better.

You're going to feel better. And you're going to thrive and succeed in today's world. I find I'm more in control. I find I feel more powerful is not the right word. But I feel like I have more domain and more dominion when I say I messed up. That's on me. Okay. Everyone did great.

I didn't do well right there. That's on me. And I feel more, you know, I'll, use the language of my generation. I feel it more like a man when I do that. Yeah, and chapter three is all about control and mastery. And I say that's the most important thing that all species strive for is to control or master our environment and taking that person accountability, saying, yeah, this is on me because if it's on me, that means I have the ability to try to remedy things, to try to make things better. So yes, it does make you feel

more like a man. And if you're a woman, it'll make you feel like a woman or an adult. Do you feel when you start writing this 15 years ago, did you think that we are closer to the finish line of whatever goals you want to set for people than we are today? Because I can't imagine that the road is easier to hoe today than it was 15 years ago. I would have never thought 15 years ago

that I'd be fighting my entire profession. Yeah. Because I'm sorry, but so many of my quote-unquote colleagues, whether psychologists or psychotherapists are learning and promulgating this idea of, of victimhood. So yeah, it makes it much harder when so many people. And by the way, Ben, the only good thing I can say is it's good and bad.

It's bittersweet. I've had so many patients tell me that they've had so many therapists who just listened, just empathized and just tell me how you feel. And so many people are saying, no, I want more. I want to know how to get the hell out of the situation that I'm in. How do I change my thinking? So I do thrive and do better in life. I, you know, my grandfather was a psychiatrist and one of his favorite books was Freud is a fraud.

And, and he, you know, I wonder, I heard somebody writing this on social media. So it was a quick little post, but it rang true to me because of what I spoke with my grandfather about back in the day that had we as a Western culture not jumped in with both feet on Freud and, you know, the notions of. of, you know, all the notions that come with him as opposed to, let's say the guy's name Adler? Yeah, Alfred Adler. The two of them viewed things differently, that one was, you know, we were a product of the issues of the past. We had to go back in there.

We had to spend all our time in there. We had to figure it out, it was the mother's fault, and it was this person's fault, it was that person's fault. We had to unpack all of that, as opposed to Adler had a different perspective that was about, you know, acknowledging those things, but then moving past those things. Am I right on that?

Yeah, so Freud was so caught up about the past and the impacts, whereas Adler, Ellison, they were focused more on the present and moving, like the future. And Adler coined the term, I believe, lifestyle, be called the style of life. And looking at what we're doing today and how we can do better. They were kind of like the forerunners, even though they were Neo-Froidians, but they were the forerunners of cognitive behavior therapy, basically. They were saying, there's something wrong with how you see, the world change it. Yeah. Well, and I, and so this person posited that maybe if we spent a little less

time focused on, on, you know, having as a foundation, uh, the Freud's view, uh, that we might not have people who are constantly stuck in. Well, we got to unpack this thing that happened. Oh, I had a, I had a memory, uh, from when I was a kid that I'd never remembered before. And, and, and it was when my, my, my, my mom took my dolls away and could, could, so doctor, can we just spend a few sessions on dealing with that memory. You know, if we weren't doing more of that, instead of looking at a, I don't know, a different worldview that maybe we wouldn't have that victimhood, a mentality that we seem to be so stuck on.

Well, potentially. But the one thing I will say that Freud did get right is the fact that a lot of people, they know what their problem is. They know what the solution is. I always say the solution is simple, not easy. But something holds them back. And what holds them back is the trauma or the adversity or the unmet needs from the past. So I never say, let's ruminate and stew in it.

I say, let's acknowledge it, understand what role is playing in your life today. And let's overcome it so that we can actually take those steps that we need to take. So there is value, but it's just how it's applied. Well, our guest was only going to stick around for one segment, but then we decided not enough. Not enough. We need more. So Dr. Oranamante is going to stick around. I got a lot of questions for me.

I want to know what he means by embracing meaning, embracing purpose, embracing fulfill. What are the definitions of those words to him as we discuss his long-awaited book after the break here on the Ben Mulroney show? This is the Ben Mulroney Show. Welcome back and we are joined by our very good friend, Dr. Oran Amity, psychologist and the author of I'm sorry I F'd up. And it feels to me as I'm looking through some of the points that you like to, that you're making, this book, doc, is, you know, advocate for yourself and acting your own best interest, develop the clarity, resilience, motivation, and agency need to live in lines with your values. These are all things that resonate with me, but, you know, I'm also someone who's set in his ways.

Take me a long time to get there. If you're talking about completely changing somebody's operating system, this could take years. It does take time, and I always tell people, yeah, these are only words at first, but they're words to guide you, and you do your best to internalize them. So you're absolutely right. You can't just snap your fingers. The problem is that's what people are hoping for. Easy fix.

Hey, speaking of something that's not an easy fix, you know, you've, for lack of a better expression, gone to war with your profession and with some of the people coming into it. What do they think of your book? Some of them have read it or I've seen it and they like it. The ones who don't, they're not going to be talking to me. Yeah. They've already shunned me. They've excommunicated me. Well, I mean, how does this book play into that narrative?

And maybe we can remind people about the battle that you're part of. Well, the current battle, there's been a few, but the current battle is that they're trying to water down and dumb down the profession and make it so that almost anybody seems could easily call themselves a psychologist with far too little education and especially training and supervision. So there's no accountability there. And there's no insight. You need a lot of time as a therapist working with people to know how much you don't

know. And if you don't know how much you don't know, you're going to harm people by telling them things that maybe you shouldn't be telling them or dealing with matters the way that you shouldn't. Have you had any one-on-one conversations with people you might consider on the other side of the fence and, I don't know, convince them that they may be wrong? Anything like that? Or are you dealing with people who are very dogmatic, very ideologically driven with their

blinders on, they don't want to talk? They decided you're the bad guy. I wish it was the former, but unfortunately it's the latter. Yeah. They're not able to and not willing to talk about it. But there is a coalition of us who are trying to, you know, to speak up and get them to change. And they're having some, they have softened a bit as we talked about last week, I believe. But still, they're going headstrong with this really bad decision.

And we're doing everything in our power to be the bulwark against it and not allow it to happen. You know, speaking of not knowing what you don't know, how if you are, let's say you've got somebody who's a blank slate and they want, they want to live by. your words in this book. How do you, like what is your advice to them on how, it's not just embracing meaning and purpose, but deciding what your meaning and purpose is. Yeah, well, you know what? It starts with, and I tell everybody,

and this is chapter four, I think it's chapter four, it's self-interest. Okay, I promote above everything else self-interest. And unfortunately, most people, when they hear self-interest, they think selfish. Yeah. And I say, no, it's not about that.

It's prioritizing yourself first so that you can step up for others. And that's the whole goal. I'm a humanist. So I want people to be there for others. But you got to take care of yourself first. So everything I say to them, because most people, they didn't learn to be self-interested. They learned to do this to keep mom happy. They do this, you know, not to get in trouble with dad or to get good grades or whatever.

I say, no, no, no. Yeah. Find out how it serves your purpose and your best interest. That's the mindset. That's why the mom puts on the mask be on the airplane before putting it on her kid. Exactly. And I use that in session, by the way. And I also use that in the book.

That's the exact example I give. But then, you know, some difficult ones, it pushing, rewiring somebody to advocate for themselves. That can be really hard. Some people are not used to doing that. No. And so the first step is to find out what bad programming, what bad narratives were implanted in you that made you think that it's not good to advocate for yourself.

Well, look, in my life, I have found it easier to advocate for myself when the stakes have been raised, like when I became a dad, or also when as I've gotten, as I've gotten, I've changed my profession and I've changed, I've moved into this part of it. I'm more proud of the work I do. And so if I ever found myself in a position where I needed to, plead my case to the benefit of my show, I would have less of a problem doing it today than ever before because I'm proud of what I do. And so I would say so. And maybe not so much in the past. Well, and, you know, first of all, that means that, you know, this show, it gives you. You asked before the break, you were saying about meaning and purpose. This show gives you meaning. It gives you purpose, raising your children. It gives you something to fight for beyond yourself. That's how the

stakes get raised, not just because of the job, but what it represents to you. And it brings you fulfillment. And this is what I'm trying to help people find. Whether it's about job, whether it's about family, whether it's about a hobby, whether it's about self-improvement. It's finding the thing that drives you. Because, you know what, we have a finite time on this planet. And I tell people, we try to get the most out of it that we can, realistically speaking. So, you know, I'm glad that you're in that position. And I try to get people from the youngest of ages to have that perspective as well. Again, easier said than done, but at least letting them know that it's possible and it's desirable. When, who do you advise to go into therapy? And, and I know it's a broad question, but when I was,

when you don't know what you don't know, you don't know if the thoughts you're having are dysfunctional or antisocial. You don't know whether you're just having a, in your, you know, you don't have a reference point. And is the advice, like, pick up a book and read it, and if it resonates with you, go talk to a therapist? How does it work? What's the jumping off point? You jump in the river of therapy?

So people jump in for different reasons. Sometimes they come when they're in an acute crisis. And I say, you know, it would be better to get there to therapy before you reach that point. You know, so when you start seeing that things aren't playing out the way that you would want, if you're waking up every morning, you know, feeling sick, anxious, stressed, angry, if you can't sleep at night, if every person, that you meet somehow they're an a hole and you go wait a second i'm the common denominator yeah maybe i'm the a whole here right so it's when things don't play out in a way that's you know that that benefits you

that's when you start thinking about therapy or you know what you said you mentioned picking up a book i'm telling right now if someone read a book and it really resonated and that jump started them maybe they don't need therapy maybe that's enough to you know to get that change happening uh do Do therapists need therapists? Many therapists do. This batch these days, they certainly need a therapist and a good kick in the ass. See, that's a good title for a book. Therapy and a good kick in the ass by Dr. Oran Amatei.

The book's 2595. The kick in the ass is free. Come on. That's great. So 15 years to write this one. when are you going to know if you got something else to write? How does it work? I'm fascinated by when ideas pop up that need to get put out on the page.

Okay, well, the reality is this book is half as long as it originally was. And it was just too unmanual. So I already have the second book written. Now I just have to edit it. It's the kick in the ass book. Well, I already have, you know, that's going to be the third book because I already got my second. The second focus is more on relationships. Okay.

But the third one, you know, and by the way, I'll make sure I'm going to add that line into the second book though. There you go. That's great. I find, I don't know, you know, I was talking to my, my brother a while ago about my dad and why I viewed him as somebody who was very, very wise. And I think it was because he had the ability as everyone, if you have a long enough life, it doesn't matter what one person's experiences are compared to another.

It doesn't matter, or your prime minister or a plumber. It's having the wherewithal to appreciate what's happening. to you appreciate what you're doing in any particular situation holding on to it and cross referencing it for later and then being able to use that as a basis to compare to other situations and my dad was able to do that and and to me that was one of the reasons he was so wise and I think the older I get so long as I'm self-aware there's a there is an element of of wisdom that comes with it now I'm not suggesting I'm wise but for the purposes of imparting information on my kids I might be. And so I want to thank you because every time I have these conversations

with you, it allows me to sort of unpack some stuff, not in an official way, but just in a way that allows me to keep track of a few thoughts in my own head. And I'm so glad that you were able to get the thoughts that were in your head out onto the page where they belong so that they can help as many people as possible. Doctor, where can people get the book? It's available on Amazon right now. It'll be available on a bunch of other platforms as well, paperback or on online or Kindle version. And they go to my website as well. Click on it.

The button's right there and they can purchase it. And I appreciate all the support. And I like to hear the feedback. I really hope it does change some lives. That's what I've dedicated my profession to and my adult life to helping people. Dr. Oranamey, psychologist. And finally, the author of I'm sorry I F'd up. Thank you very much.

We'll talk to you soon. Thank you so much for having me on, Ben. I really do appreciate it. Of course. You're listening to the Ben Mulroney Show. Yes you are and Thanksgiving is upon us And a few days ago I was doing an interview I was talking with a fellow colleague from QR Calgary

And they're asking us What's Thanksgiving like around your table? Everyone always says avoid politics but you're the Mulruni family And I think that's actually It was a really good point. I never thought about it I think because that's our love language That something that would otherwise be really stressful that would tear families asunder

brings us closer together. I have the most fun at Thanksgiving and at Christmas. Anytime we're sitting around and eating and drinking and have fun together for an entire day that sometimes involves football, that's a good day.

But that's not always the case. Thanksgiving Blues is a real thing. I don't want to minimize it. But we're joined now by Dominic Morisano, a professor of social and behavioral health science at the University of Toronto, also a fellow Duke University alum. Go Blue Devils.

Hi there. Hi. Hi. Yeah, thanks. Thanksgiving blues is a real thing, isn't it? It is. I mean, holiday blues in general, I would say. And due to what? I try to empathize as much as I can, but in this case, I find myself completely at a loss. These are really moments. These are my family brass ring, you know, so put me in their shoes. I think sometimes, you know, people, they don't see their family very much. They feel a lot of pressure when they're going to be these big gatherings or maybe even smaller gatherings with people that they haven't seen in a long time. Sometimes people's social anxiety comes up with how to interact with relatives. Maybe they feel like they don't have much in common with or they feel like you were kind of referring to

different political beliefs or different, I don't know, just styles of being and it can be, it It can be, it can feel awkward for some people. It can feel difficult. And sometimes people use it as a way to bring up old, you know, kind of poke at old wounds. So as you say that, I'm, I'm envisioning sort of the, the dark comedies that I've seen on the big screen. Like, so you're saying those things, that, that's an actual real thing where the tension just builds and builds and somebody's needling somebody else and somebody has too much to drink and somebody says something inappropriate and it all builds on itself. So how do we diffuse it? Yeah, 100%.

You know, those are based on real life, for sure. You know, I think, you know, what I often tell people, like I'm a psychologist, the clinical psychologist, and what I often tell my patients in preparing for these gatherings is just to kind of know what your limits are, you know? So, you know, so if you're the kind of person that loves to argue about politics and you love to engage in those discussions, then you've got to go in being okay with whatever. outcome occurs, you know, and you have to be able to kind of not take whatever is said personally, understand that it's an intellectual discussion, right? And it's not necessarily a discussion

around your identity, you know? And then I think, you know, in terms of, I always have people kind of set, I don't want to say goals, but like, let's say plans around substances, you know, how do they want to kind of monitor themselves? If they know that they really start to lose it after, you know, a few drinks, maybe we keep it to a few drinks and drink non-alcoholic beverages in between. So when you speak this way, it's almost like the advice you might want to give somebody before they go into a casino. But if you don't want to lose your shirt, if you don't want to lose your shirt,

make sure you don't drink to the point that you get careless. Recognize that the money you're going. in with, that's all the money you're going to play with. It's not, I mean, but, but really, it seems to me like it's a similar game plan. Like, you're, you're going into a place where the game is rigged. And so keep your wits about you.

You could. Yeah. Yeah. You could. Though the chance of winning a million dollars is low. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But winning Thanksgiving is going home and not, you know, I don't know. And wanting to go back the next year. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like,

having a great time with people that, you know, I don't know, share your, you know, that are in your family, basically, that you want to spend time with. And if it's really rough for you, then, you know, you can, you don't have to stay for five hours. You don't have to engage in every discussion. You can go take a step outside and grab some air or, like, go for a little walk. But play with the kids, yeah, go sit and watch the football in silence. There's a lot, yeah. Yeah.

But what happens if there is that wild card that thrives on the chaos? You know, they are the people who come in and they will take, they will view the order and the love around the table and say, yet not good enough for me. I'm the god of chaos and that's what I'm here to sew. How do you deal with that person? Yes. I mean, I think that happens at a lot of dinners, that a lot of family dinners on holiday dinners. I think, again, like, you have to decide, you know, ahead of time, like,

You know, in the past when I've gone to holiday dinners, I make a note ahead of time. Like, I'm not going to fight. You know, like, I'm not going to fight. I'm not going to get in any arguments. I'm not going to get in any major debates. Like, that's just how I want to navigate it, right? And if I do get in those debates, I just have to keep my cool. Remember that it's all in good fun, you know, and remember that at the end of the day,

I love these people and I want to have a relationship with them tomorrow. Yeah. Is there safety in numbers, meaning can you, I don't, don't know, start campaigning before the event, calling your sister, calling whoever's cooking. You know, first of all, like presenting yourself as being helpful and but then coming in and saying, you know, I just hope we don't have a repeat of last year when Uncle Larry drank, you know, seven too many tequila sodas. Remember that? Let's keep an eye on him this year. And then, I mean, is that, but is that too underhanded? Is that too, is that like trying to be a puppet,

master or or are you just protecting yourself trying to get ahead of the problem? Well, I think it's not only protecting yourself. I think it's protecting the whole system like right in your whole family unit. It's kind of a harm reduction move. Yeah. Yeah. You know, saying like, okay, how many bottles of wine are we going to have it at the table? And, you know, when's last call kind of thing?

You know, and how are we going to navigate if someone, if someone loses it, can we all agree to just, you know, have us, you know, have a signal, like, you know, something that where we all agree that, like, we're shutting it down for a moment, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Have a code word. Yeah. You can. Candid yams. Can you and yams. Yeah. I think, you know, I think that sometimes people forget that these things are supposed to be fun. Yeah. That they're supposed to be joyful, that they're supposed to be a time for connection and love and, you know, all of the good things. and they're not just something we have to do or what you're supposed to do, you know, that we're doing them for a reason, that there's, you know, joy and comfort and rituals sometimes. And how do we make that work for us? Like, you know, I tell some of my patients that dread holidays that start to get depressed and anxious that have to holidays. Like, how can you make this work for you, you know? Can you say no to certain events? Can you say, oh, I'm going to do this but not that? can you agree to like make your favorite food and bring it if you don't like the food that's being made, you know, and make that as an offering?

Like make it work for you. You know what I mean? I've got three straight days of this stuff. And my reward is having the entire entire day. From the time I go home after football on Monday, on Sunday, I'm not doing anything until I go to work on Tuesday. Okay, a couple of questions for you, just so we can get to know the doctor a little bit better. dark meat or white meat. Say that again?

Dark meat or white meat. Dark meat or white meat. Oh, I'm vegan. Oh, you're vegan. Okay, so, okay, what's your favorite side? My favorite side is stuffing. Yes, yes, indeed. Stuffing is, let me tell you, if I have to pick between potatoes and stuffing, I'm taking

stuffing every time. There's potatoes everywhere. Stuffing should be on far many, far more many menus, just regular. I agree. Yeah, don't you think? I mean, if that was offered as a side at a steakhouse, but not for you, obviously, a tofu house. You know, a tofu house with some good stuffing on the side, I'd take that over the potatoes, no. 100%.

And what's a pie situation like for a vegan? Are you able to? Vegan pumpkin pie. So, okay, but is that the tops for you? Because I'm a wild blueberry guy. Oh, blueberry pie is fantastic. Also apple pie. Oh, yeah, see, I'm already,

this is why it's my favorite. This is why it's my favorite. All right, well, Dominic Morissano, thank you so much. I wish you the happiest of Thanksgiving. And to all of your patience as well, to everyone who's listening, I hope everyone finds a way to be thankful

and to feel that people are giving thanks for them as well. So thank you very much. Thank you, Ben. Take care. Okay, producer Danny knows that one of my favorite places in all of Canada is the Badlands, and she found a great story, about dinosaurs with research done

on some drumheller fossils in the dinosaur capital of the world. It is such a cool story. Come on back. This is the Ben Mulrooney show. Ah, this is why I love this show. Yeah, keep playing that. Welcome to Jurassic Park.

Come on. If you saw that movie and didn't want to be amongst the dinosaurs, and if part of you didn't want to be Alan Grant digging around for bones to discover these dinosaurs. If when you saw dinosaur bones in a museum for the first time, you weren't in awe of the world that was, then you should check your pulse.

And I took my kids on the single greatest vacation. Up until that point I've ever had, where we went to Drumheller and we went to the museum there. We took tours. and it just filled me with so much excitement for that part of the country and I was so glad to be there. But imagine being a student. Imagine being a student who wants to study that and has it all at their disposal.

Well, we're talking now with Joshua Duoyon. He's a master's student in science at the University of Alberta. And Joshua, you are working on essentially a cold case from the Cretaceous period, aren't you? Yeah, exactly. Thanks for having me here, Ben. Yeah, what we have here is a specimen of Albertosaurus, which is a close related cousin to T-Rex, our famous apex predator, that has bite marks on it. So something was biting it, probably shortly after this dinosaur died. Our project's goal was to try to figure out who bid it, who was the culprit. And what are some of the theories you're circling around right now?

Yeah, so the way we try to figure it out is that with the spacing between each mark caused by the teeth, we can measure that spacing and compare it to the spacing between the teeth of other carnivorous dinosaurs or animals that coexisted with our Albertosaurus to see which one it matches up best with. And we have two hypotheses. One is supported better than the other, and that is raptors or their scientific grouping is. I knew this story was going to have a raptor. You gotta have, you gotta, I don't care if in the story, it's a hero or a villain or an anti-hero. Every great dinosaur story has a raptor. Anyway, continue.

Exactly. Yeah. And in our story here, our understanding of it is that our Albertasaurus probably died from some unknown causes. We're not quite sure. And shortly after it died, it got fed on by a raptor, maybe a group of raptors or just a single one, we're not quite sure. But that raptor was chewing on meat that was around the jaw and around the skull of our

dinosaur picking off kind of the leftover meat. Okay. That doesn't sound, that sounds kind of like par for the course, no? Yeah, I think like we haven't had any evidence actually in the fossil records necessarily supporting raptors feeding on Tyrannosaurs. Oh, really? So this is the first time that we see them eating. Tyrannosaurs.

We know that they eat quite a variety of different things from finding tooth marks like this on plant eating dinosaurs and them having, in some rare cases, little birds or mammals preserved in their stomach area. Gotcha. But never them eating a Tyrannosaur like this. Oh, so that would be new. This would be quite new. Yeah.

So this is a new understanding of the diet of raptors that it could include kind of their bosses in the ecosystem, the big apex tyrannosaurs. that are living with them. Okay, so you said that you had two theories. So that was the first one. What's the second one? Yeah, so our second one is no less exciting. It's really small toothmark, so it has to be a really small dinosaur that was biting it.

And our other potential scenario is that this is a baby Albertosaurus, so a member of the same species, eating an adult or in our case here, a juvenile or young adult, kind of a teenager. Okay. So that would be an example of cannibalism, where this baby. about two years old is eating our dinosaur here that's around eight to ten years old. Yeah, we can't, we can't sell that to Steve and Spielberg. That's, that's, that's not going to fly. But talk to me about being a student of this, this field of which you are clearly passionate and having at your disposal, this incredible wealth of information and fostering.

record that University of Alberta and just the province of Alberta has under its feet and what's been recovered over the course of over a century. Yeah, yeah, we're extremely lucky in Canada and Alberta in particular to just be able to walk out our door and find fossils. Yeah. And these things then are the basis of so much of our research and our understanding of animals and how they change through time. So I'm pretty lucky that I get to,

pursue that in Alberta and have these resources so close to me. Every summer we're out digging for new fossils, trying to make new discoveries in the badlands. And you never know what you're going to find. There's always something exciting. Josh, take me back to when you were a kid. When did it spark in you that this is what you wanted to do? Well, I think like a lot of kids, they go through the dinosaur phase. And for me, I don't even remember when that was.

It's as long as I can remember. And it just never went out of it. Just always loved dinosaurs, loved learning about natural history. So it's pretty exciting as a student now to be able to explore that. And in this case, explore, you know, what's always my favorite. And a lot of kids' favorite dinosaurs are big Tyrannosaurus, like Albertosaurus and T-Rex. It's pretty cool. Are you worried that we're getting to the point where it's just going to be harder and harder to find these things?

At one point, they were all, they were at the surf. You could walk down an old riverbed. You could see bones sticking out of the rock. Is it getting harder and harder to go deeper and deeper and find things of value? Or is it still, or is the science keeping up, the technology keeping up with it? And it's just different techniques, but you can still glean the knowledge from what's below your feet. Yeah, I think definitely paleontology as a science has changed a fair bit in the last 100 years. But we are still constantly just blessed with more and more fossils as we're going out into the badlands.

And that's because this landscape is really erosional. Every year when there's snow and rain, it works down that sand and that mud. And new fossils kind of start popping out of the ground. So even if you walked that area last year and you didn't find anything, you go back the next year and there's a good chance you will. So there's a lot of areas in Alberta where it's still really hard to walk around without just stepping. on dinosaur bones. They're everywhere. I'm telling you, there are people in this country that do not appreciate. You can't paint a picture with your words, explaining to them what the bad lands are.

When I first saw it, I couldn't believe that was in Canada. It looked like Arizona in certain parts. It was unbelievable that that existed in Canada. I never would have guessed. And the fact that I got to bring my kids there was so, so special. Are you so scientifically minded as? as it relates to the dinosaurs, that you cannot enjoy a good Jurassic Park movie, or do you still enjoy them? Yeah, that's a good question, and that's what, as a paleontology student and in this realm, we get asked that a lot.

I think for me, I still enjoy a good dinosaur movie, even if those dinosaurs depicted on screen aren't exactly, you know, representative of what I'm finding in research. It's still exciting. It's still cool. it brings a lot of interest to our field. And all of that, I think, is a really positive thing. I heard a story that the movie, the original movie came out, and paleontologists were getting upset because the raptors are supposed to be the size of turkeys or something like that.

And these were too big. And then they had discovered an entire type of raptor that was the size of a turkey almost as soon as the movie came out. I don't know if that's true. I like living in a world where it's true. But are we seeing enough feathers on, on, dinosaurs in movies for your liking? Yeah, I think it's definitely improved. And you're right, that story of finding Steven Spielberg's big raptor, that is true.

We did later on find a raptor that's pretty close to the size as those velociraptors in the movie. And in today's world of dinosaur media, I think the feathers are a great thing. They're kind of trying to be representative of what we're doing in the science. And the discoveries change all the time. These are always ideas we have about these animals. No one knows what they look like in reality. So we do our best to try to interpret them. Well, Joshua, when you get more evidence and you decide on one theory over the other,

please come back because we'd like for you to render your decision here for the audience of the Ben Mulroney show. Have a happy Thanksgiving. And thanks for spending some time with us. You as well. Thanks for having me. Just a reminder, if you want more BMS, we put it at a podcast each and every day. Coming up for our Toronto audience has more than half a million dollars gone to the friends of the deputy mayor. We'll talk about that next.