The Ben Mulroney Show - Iran, some fun Canadian history and bragging rights Canada doesn't want

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

Guests and Topics: -Iran latest -Atif Kubursi -Craig Baird If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show and the war in Iran because it is a war that Israel is prosecuting against that Nazi regime, repressive regime with grand designs of obtaining a nuclear weapon is is growing ever more high stakes every day. And naturally the useful idiots that have come out against Israel's right to defend itself against the terrorist group Hamas are lining up to defend Hamas, lining up to defend Iran. And that was predictable and it was shameful. But useful idiots got a idiot. And so they need a cause. And if the Jews are doing it, it's got to be bad because Jews are bad. Right, Fred Hahn? Right, QP, right, I mean, right, useful

it is. And, but that doesn't mean that what they're doing is going to stop. Israel is going to protect itself by any means necessary, and I stand behind them for that. It is regrettable that so many civilians have died, but that's what happens in war. But the war has come back to Israel. And the Iron Dome, I know a lot of people are laughing at the destruction that is being leveled on Tel Aviv, forgetting how upset they were

that civilians were dying in Gaza. Those same people don't have an ounce of compassion for the fact that Iran is quite literally targeting civilian areas because their hypocrisy knows no bounds. But the threat to the world, if Iran gets a nuclear weapon is real, it is immediate, and it is unacceptable. And so here is Ted Cruz, Senator from Texas, who is on Fox News. Here's what he had to say about what happens if Iran gets a nuclear weapon. You need an ICBM to get to America.

If is, if Iran gets a nuclear weapon, I think the odds are unacceptably high that we would find out with a mushroom cloud over New York city or Los Angeles or Tel Aviv and Israel. It's so rich that the useful idiots will hear the chance of death to America, death to the West, death to Israel. And they will make excuses saying, that doesn't mean what they're saying. From the river to the sea doesn't mean what they're saying. But those same people will twist the words of people

on the other side of the equation and ratchet up what they mean. Like Donald Trump can say anything and the useful idiots will turn that into, well, he didn't say it, but here's what he actually meant. But they're not willing to do it on that side. Iran has told us what they want. They want us all to die. All of us.

Everyone in the West. They've said it over and over and over again. They want every Jew dead. They want every supporter of Israel dead. They want anyone who isn't like them dead. And how serious is it? Their fellow Muslims in Saudi Arabia have said if they get a nuclear weapon the day after, we're getting one. And we don't want one. But we cannot live in a world where Iran has one and we don't have one to scare them with.

If they get the stick, we need a bigger stick. So that's the reality. And anybody who tells you otherwise is full of it. Anybody who tells you otherwise is nothing but an anti-Western, anti-Jewish, anti-democratic supporter of terror, supporter of repression, supporter of the suppression of human rights, gay rights, women's rights, all rights, religious freedom, all of it. There is no other way to look at it. And that is, I mean, this is very, this is there. In the world we live in, there are a few countries who wear the black hat of the bad guy countries who wear the black hat of the bad guy more clearly than Iran. And you want to make sure that they have the ability to get the biggest gun on the block and you want to trust them with it.

I mean, I said it yesterday. You need to wear a helmet when you walk outside because you're going to hurt yourself. Here is, and this is, this is how serious it's getting in Israel. And by the way, Israel knows the risks. Israel knows that their people are at risk and they're gonna continue doing what they need to do because they know that on the other side of it

is safety for their nation. And we should be thanking them for it. My producer has been in active war zones. Mike My producer has been in active war zones. Mike Drolet has been in active war zones. But even in an active war zone, there was a little distance between him and the thing, right? You've been in active war zone. Yeah, I've been to disaster zones.

I did a couple of tours in Afghanistan, 2006, 2008. OK, so we've got some audio here of a journalist for Fox News who's in, he's wearing a helmet, he's wearing a flak jacket, and he's there with the air raid sirens are on. And he had to, well, we're gonna listen to him because he had to disconnect because they were told that they could be in the danger zone. Let's listen.

Ballistic missiles are fired at this city. Air defense systems are currently active over Tel Aviv with hundreds of thousands of people into bomb shelters at this moment. unhooked. get off. All right, we got it. We're going to move. Okay, stay with us. Stay with us. Stay with us. Keep moving. Keep moving. Keep moving. Keep moving. Yeah. Okay. So you hear that you see that what do you think because you've got experience in that world.

Well, it's terrifying when you do hear that stuff come in. You never know really when you're watching TV whether or not they're playing it up because some some journalists sadly do. But you know, being in Kandahar on the base in Kandahar, you would often get the sirens going off because rockets would be getting shot in, you would often get the sirens going off because rockets would be getting shot in. You'd have to run to the bomb shelter. But when you're out there,

the most terrifying thing about being in those zones is when you're just traveling with the military and you have no idea what's going to happen. Yeah, but this guy is on a rooftop, right? I suspect that if there's a bomb shelter, it's not in his immediate vicinity. No, no, no, you are exposed. You're absolutely exposed. And you do feel as a war correspondent exposed often, because you don't have anybody watching your back except for yourself.

And those, by the way, those aren't bulletproof vests. There's no such thing as that. Those things will stop and slow. They will stop a handgun bullet, but anything from a rifle, it won't. Yeah. And I mean, the shrapnel that could come at you from an exploding missile and God knows what it hits, that's going through that. Yeah. And also, they never made those big enough for me. No. Well, yeah, yeah. You're a very, very tall drink of water. Mike Drulli, thank you very much. You know, the argument that if you say, if you take a position and you put it online, you better stand by it because it can come back and bite you in the butt. Here is an old video of Donald Trump

leveling attacks on President Obama. Well, let's listen to it and then, and think about the context that we're in today. Our president will start a war with Iran because he has absolutely no ability to negotiate. He's weak and he's ineffective. Now just for context, our our the president of the United States is has sort of injected himself into the dynamic that's going on over there. He did not want Israel to launch an offensive.

They did. And it was very successful. And so he sort of reverse engineered a justification saying, I gave Iran 60 days to come to the table and to close a deal with me. This offensive started on day 61. And so he's essentially claiming that he let Israel off the leash. But with that piece of audio, you could make the argument that he was not able to get to a deal and war has started with Iran. So you've got to be very careful about when you take positions

and you put them online. And I say that as somebody who takes positions and puts them online every single day. If I if I turn out to to change my perspective on something, just let me know. By the way, it's not a system a signal of hypocrisy. It's a signal of times changing and people changing with them. And anyway, that's all I have to say about that. But this this story is ever evolving. We will keep you abreast. And I will let you know my thoughts on it,

because I got a lot as we go on. And you can always share your opinions with me on Twitter or on X at Ben Mulroney and let me know. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. Thank you so much for joining us. And we've been talking about the ever evolving or possibly devolving situation in the Middle East and here to help us make a little more sense of it. We're joined by Atif Khabursky. He's the former Deputy Executive Secretary, United Nations Economic and Social Commissioner for Western Asia. And he studied the Middle East extensively.

Atif, thank you so much for being here. Yeah, thank you for inviting me. So how strong, you know, a lot of people are impressed by the speed with which Israel has dominated the air over Iran, as well as sort of their masterful ability to cut the head off of so many of the decision-makers both literally and figuratively in that country in such short order. But does that belie a... are we under the impression now that there will be a swift end to this or does Iran have a far greater control over that country than Israel's lightning-quick offensive would suggest? Yeah, there are at least four aspects to take into account. The swift dominance of the air by Israel was expected, and it's true.

But there are three other factors that have not really been taken into account. One, Israel always was successful in transferring the battle to the enemy's space and to the enemy's territory. This is not happening this time. For the first time, or one of the few times, the battle has really been on both sides of the equation. The second one is Israel used to be always able to finish whatever battle it had planned in very short order, given the high cost of whatever military action Israel takes.

This is not happening. It is not likely to happen. At this time, it's difficult to tell. But look, Israel is employed for almost a year and seven months in Gaza. The third very important aspect is that Israel used to be able to bring to the battle an overwhelming superiority in technology. Yeah, yeah, it did it in terms of what the Americans had given it from F-35 and others, but look at the missiles.

I mean, Iran seemed to be able to pass the supersonic missiles that have avoided the eluded and still scored despite the Iron Dome. And the other aspect, which is probably also true, there is no consensus despite the fact that trying to create a consensus in the G7 or others. There is no consensus. They could not come up with a final communicate even within the American system. Tucker Carlson, Bernie Sanders, Tim Kaine, there's lots of people who are not happy or willing to accept that Israel always drags the U.S US into the matter. So there are some... Yeah, exactly.

I want to level set people's expectation that just because things have gone at lightning-quick speed and it does look like Israel has been achieving their goals to a large extent, that doesn't mean that the rest of the script has been written and people who should probably prepare for things to slow down and get a lot dirtier as dirty as they've already been. But it's interesting that you just talked about the lack of consensus in the United States because I think we're living in an administration where the only person who matters is Donald Trump and what he wants. And he does seem, even though this is not the way he wanted things to go, he seems to

have injected himself. He wants to be on what he thinks is the right side and the winning side. And he's made it sound like he's been part of this since the beginning. And now he's calling for the Ayatollah's unconditional surrender. We know where you are, this is not going to end well for you, we need you to surrender. Is that likely? No I don't think so. There is one thing, you're talking about a historic society. Eurasia is a country that has always run it around what they consider to be their territory, their integrity, and their survival. They're not maybe too happy with the regime, but this is their choice,

and I don't think they're going to accede or accept and go with whatever pilot, the son of the and go with whatever pilot the son of the old chaq or the Americans or the Israelis on the country if they were thinking of something the very fact that now it is the Israelis and Americans who are calling for their uprising it's not gonna happen. Well that and that's the that's the fork in the road where we seem to see each other as we find ourselves a lot when the possibility of regime change is on the table. And it is, I think we're close enough to it that we have to have the discussion. Now there are some who are optimistic and believe that if there were to be a second Iranian revolution and the religious zealots were kicked out, that you would see a return to a more secular society

that was played better with its neighbors and for all of its ills under the Shah, you could make that argument that that was the narrative, that was definitional of the previous regime. So it could go back to that if you're an optimist, or it could go the way of Syria, it could go the to that if you're an optimist, or it could go the way of Syria, it could go the way of Afghanistan. Where do you think we are at that fork in the road?

No, no question about it, that Iran is a heterogeneous society, there are lots of different groups, Azerbaijanis, Turks, and Arabs and other parts, but it's nothing like Syria. There is really more control and more acceptance of the government. I mean, this is their choice. I myself is a secular, would really prefer a secular system.

It brings more development and whatever needs of the people. But at this time, I certainly feel like every other Iranian, that I'm not going to accede to a people who have exercised the sanctions, who tried to humiliate me, who are killing my people, who are destroying my infrastructure. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen, you don't think. You think that there is more support for the regime in Iran than sort of the conventional wisdom because the narrative in the West is that the people of Iran have

been held hostage by the regime of Iran. You see, the trouble is that Mexico thinks what people in Iran today are hanging to and would support is Iran, is the integrity of Iran, is the sanctity of their life of the Iranians. The regime has become a secondary issue. And those who are trying to change the regime made a vital mistake, fatal mistake in my view, by assuming that the regime and Iran are one and the same. I see. And lastly, sir, is a ground invasion by Israel an inevitability? Is it ever going to happen? I mean, for them to go into Gaza is to go into a spider geography well of Persia's mountains, valleys. They complete about 18 different geographic zones.

It's a mind boggling. Okay. All right. Well, Atif Khabursky, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it so very much, and I hope to talk to you again soon. Sure. Thank you, Ben. I take my guest at his word.

However, I also know that what we have witnessed from Israel since they took on, since the beeper offensive and since the incredible intelligence that they were able to gather on so many of the people in leadership positions in Iran that have been unalived in the most creative ways possible. The fact that they were able to smuggle drones into that country and turn them on on the day that they selected, to me signals that they probably do know a fair share about the terrain that they would have to encounter in Iran were there to be a land invasion. I'm not suggesting I know anything and I'm not suggesting it's a good idea. I am suggesting that if Israel decided they were going

to do that it's because they were fairly certain that they could have an advantage over anyone that they met on that battlefield. This is the Ben Mulroney show, but in this segment, I like to take a back seat. I like to go to the front of the class and learn from Professor Craig Baird himself, the host of Canadian History X, and every week he joins us here on the Ben Mulroney show to teach us something that we all should know about this country. And the more we know about this country, the more the more that will bind us together. I truly believe that. And so, Craig, welcome back to the show. Thank you for being here. Well, thanks for having me.

All right. Today's history lesson is about the Boyd Gang. Tell me I want you to tell me about it. I want you to tell our listeners about it because this is just magnificent. Yeah, the Boyd gang is kind of a really interesting story from Toronto's history and it centers on four men. That was Lenny Jackson, Steve Sucan, Willie Jackson, who wasn't actually related to Lenny Jackson, and then Edwin Boyd.

And so they were all in the Dawn jail. And then in November 4th, 1951, they actually used a hacksaw that was smuggled in within Willie Jackson's wooden leg. And they used that to escape. Hold on. Hold on. So Willie Jackson, my guess is Edwin Boyd was the leader of the Boyd gang? Actually, Lenny Jackson was, but because Edwin Boyd was kind of... Actually, Lenny Jackson was, but because... Lenny Jackson was? Yeah, but Edwin Boyd was really charismatic and handsome and everything. So the press kind of just made him the leader in the press, so it became the Boyd Gang.

Okay, can we back up though? Why were they a gang and what were they doing in the Dawn jail? What got them there? Well, they all got in there because of different crimes. Edwin Boyd was a bank robber and the others were kind of just petty criminals and they met each other in jail and started to kind of form a friendship and decided to escape together. And then that's what happened with escaping the Dawn jail by kind of using the hacksaw

to get through the bars and then going out the back. Sure, sure. But hold on. Like they, they need it. So they got, they got arrested, right? And they were, how did the hacksaw get into his leg? How did he know to put it in there? They must have, when did they hatch this plan? They hatched it a couple months earlier,

but they did have somebody who actually was able to get the hacksaw in, and then they were hiding it within his legs. legs. That was how they did it. Yeah. And they escaped and went on the run for several months, robbed banks throughout the Toronto area. And about four months, they stole $75,000, which is about a million dollars today. So a pretty significant sum. And then unfortunately, on March 6th, 1952, Detective Sergeant Edmund Tong, he was actually shot and killed when he stopped Lenny Jackson and Steve Sue Cannon at a traffic light. So both men were

soon arrested, followed by Willie Jackson and Edwin Boyd later on. They were all in different areas, but the police were able to kind of descend upon all of them. Now, this is where the story gets very, very interesting. On September 8, 1952, the foreman escaped the Don Jill again, and they actually used a smuggled saw that was brought in by a fan and through the copying of a guard's key. And actually my clip today kind of shows the really unique method they used in order to copy this guard's key, which was real outside the box thinking, in my opinion. Okay, now before we get to that, when they were on the run and they were robbing with impunity, was the city scared?

Were people afraid to go outside? Not really, not really, because it was kind of the situation where they were robbing banks, they had actually not really hurt anybody except for what would eventually be the shooting of the police officer at the traffic stop. A lot of people just kind of liked the story around them. You know, those romanticized, these bank robbers who had escaped the Don jail. They all kind of went their separate ways eventually, but I think Willie Jackson was arrested in Montreal. Edwin Boyd was kind of arrested while he was laying in bed. He woke up and the police were standing around his bed and he kind of just put his arms up and said,

"'Okay, well, you got me.'" And then the other two were arrested kind of soon after at their apartment buildings. Now talk to me about the CBC. It was the CBC's first TV newscast, the day that they escaped from the jail. It was, yeah. So, so, so CBC, you know, has been a staple on radio

and now they, now they, they've moved into TV. And if you tuned in for the very first time, you're tuning in to a jailbreak by the Boyd gang. I mean, it had been me back in the day, I would have been a, I would have been a CBC watcher for life, because I was like, this is what been a CBC watcher for life. Because I would have said, this is what I'm getting. This is appointment TV. Yeah, absolutely. Kind of the first news story you get is a sensational story. And then the

person who's actually telling you the story, who's kind of serving as the anchor that night, is Lauren Green, who goes on to become very famous with his role as Ben Cartwright on Bonanza and Commander Adama on Battlestar Galactica. So you have a very famous with his role as Ben Cartwright on Bonanza and Commander Adama on Battlestar Galactica. So you have a very famous person who's going to be very famous hosting it with the deep baritone voice. And yeah, it's a sensational story. So being on the television even makes it more sensational. It's spread clear across Canada. But unfortunately, the two, well, not unfortunately, I mean, unfortunately for them, the two men, the four men were arrested about 10 days later. Lenny Jackson and Steve Sucan were both put to death for the murder of Sergeant Tong.

And then Willie Jackson and Edwin Boyd spent about a decade in prison each before they were both paroled and kind of just went on to live quiet lives at that point. All right. Well, let's listen to a clip from Canadian History X featuring the Boyd Gang. For weeks, Willie and Edwin had been observing the key used by guards to open cells in their block. The two men were going to copy that key. As often happens with famous criminals, the gang also discovered that they had fans.

One man came to visit Willie and told him that he would do anything to help him. Soon enough, Willie's visitor returned with a shoehorn and file. Their cell block was guarded by an older man who was friendly with prisoners. He enjoyed chatting with them and Willie developed a bit of a rapport with him by playing a goofball prisoner. At the same time, Willie dehydrated himself for days. An opportunity presented itself while the guard was locking up Steve Sucan. Willie grabbed the key and jokingly told the guard that he wanted to do the lockup.

The guard thought nothing of it and laughed off the incident. What he didn't know was that Willy had grabbed the key and created an impression of it on his dehydrated skin. Back in his cell he grabbed a pencil and traced the shape onto a paper. Now they had to make a key. Unfortunately, the shoehorn was simply too thin and Willie then had his fan get a piece of metal that was just the right size. By this point Lenny and Steve were in on the plan and helped by making noise. And with the key finally made,

Willie's fan next brought in a hacksaw. It took them a month and in the early morning light of September 8th, 1952, each man climbed through the window and walked along the ledge outside of their cell block. This is this is amazing. I mean, he grabbed the key from the from the the guard and the guard thought nothing of it. Well, he had spent the past few weeks kind of just, you know, make portraying himself as a jokester, you know, no real harm, no foul.

But yeah, so when you get grab the key, and because he had dehydrated himself, he created that impression in his hand, which is like I would never would have thought of to do that. Yeah, that's crazy. In a million years. Yeah, that's incredible. It's incredible. Hey, before, before we leave, we want to sort of look back at time. It happened on this day in 19, not this day, yesterday in 1958. The tallest roller coaster in Canada was at the PNE in the Pacific National Exhibition in Vancouver.

And so talk to us about that. Yeah, it's the PNE roller coaster. It was the oldest, it's actually the oldest roller coaster in Canada right now. It's 870 meters long and 23 meters high. It's still in operation. It is. Is it one of those wooden ones? It is. It's I believe the oldest wooden roller coaster in North America at this point.

That's not that's not that's not something I want to know. Like, oh, it's the oldest one out there. I've seen those things. They look like matchsticks that were all put together, and you got to ride on top of them. Yeah, I don't know if I would ride it, but it's, yeah, people still ride it. And it's been on television and movies and things like that. It's become kind of a very famous part of the P&E

to this day. Now, just for context, so that one is 23 meters high. It reached a top speed of 72 kilometers an hour. I mean, back then, 1958, that must have been really fast. But now today, the top three tallest roller coasters in Canada, they're all at Canada's Wonderland in Vaughan, just outside of Toronto. The Leviathan is 93 meters high, and it goes 148 kilometers

an hour. The Behemoth is 70 meters high. It goes, I don't know how fast that goes. And the Yukon Striker is 68 and there's a 75 meter drop and four inversions. So they've gotten past the point of scaring me. They've gotten to the point of me soiling myself. So I don't go on them anymore, Craig. Yeah, I don't think I would go on this one or anyone that goes you know three or four times higher. Oh and the Honorable Mention goes to Le Monstre at La Ronde in Montreal, tallest wooden coaster in Canada at nearly 40 meters but ranks well below the top three. Craig

Baird as always a real pleasure thank you so much for educating us and entertaining us. Thanks for having me. The best high concepts I five rig of a role in the universe is back. Ah! What the hell? Oh, sh-t. How long was I out? Close airlock seven! Rick! Seth, please let me out! Rick put you in there for a reason, sweetie.

My justice! Get back here! This is for your own good! Rick and Morty. New season, Sundays on Adult Swim. Stream on StackTV. Get your mouth rounded.