The Ben Mulroney Show - Is it our own fault that a black market for opioids exists?

Episode Date: February 12, 2025

Guests and Topics: -Freeland to announce plan to cap grocery profits and expand competition with Guest: Sylvain Charlebois, Canadian Researcher and Professor specializing in the Food Industry  -Can a Machine Find You a Soulmate? Inside the AI-Powered Matrimony Boom with Guest: Mihika Agarwal, Journalist, editor and author of this Article  -Taking a historical look at Richard Pierpoint and Jackie Robinson’s time in Montreal with Guest: Craig Baird, Host of Canadian History Ehx -Leak hints at extent of corruption within B.C.'s safer supply program with Guest: Adam Zivo, National Post columnist and Executive Director for the Centre For Responsible Drug Policy If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Hey, it's Ben O'Hara Bird filling in for Ben Mulrooney. We had so many great conversations on the show. Here are some of them. Let's get back to a very interesting topic here. Christia Freeland was in Vancouver on Tuesday talking about her ideas to try to bring down grocery prices. This may sound somewhat familiar to you if you're familiar with NDP policies. She wants to put a cap

on profits for grocery stores to lower food prices. This would be sort of basically on essentials, stuff like eggs, milk, vegetables, baby formula, and so on. But it would be a cap on profits that grocery stores can make off those specific items. She also wants to fight shrink-flation, which we've talked about a lot over the past little while. That's when the packaging gets deceptively smaller and smaller, you're paying the same amount for less product. She wants to go after that. That mightn't be a terrible idea, but that first one about profit caps. Sylvain Charlebois, the food professor, someone we talked to quite often on my show Conversations, a Canadian researcher professor specializing in the food industry joins

us now. Sylvain, always a pleasure. How are you? Good morning Ben, it's kind of weird to tell you good morning. Typically we talk to each other later in the day. Indeed, indeed. What do you make of this? I mean I think everyone agrees that food prices are stabilizing a bit and not everything is expensive. You look at the price of eggs in the U.S. you'll be counting your blessings you're buying eggs in Canada. But what about this idea of capping profits as a way to sort of spawn competition and lower prices? Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, that falls under the bad good idea, I guess, category. It's really, a lot of people may think you, well, just cap profits, just cap prices and, and we'll be able to protect consumers

well not necessarily if you actually cap profits guess what's going to happen that we want more competition in in the field that would ask you discourage competition it would discourage investment it would discourage from a new players from going into the market. And frankly, if you're hoping that Aldi or Little would come into the game market, a cap like that will basically keep them away for as long as possible. So that's certainly my concern. And when capping food prices, again, I always go back to the Quebec example of milk. Milk in Quebec prices are regulated and heavily regulated in fact and when you actually shop around for milk in Canada where is the most expensive fluid milk

in Canada? It's in Quebec. Really why would that be? How could that be? Because so in principle you may think capping or regulating prices is a good idea, but it's how you do it. I used to be a lobbyist before I became an academic, and my job as representative of the retailers of Quebec was to push prices as high as possible. Who represents consumers during deliberations while some non-for-profit organization with no lawyers you have no chance against the farmers with two three lawyers in the room and they can argue until the end of time why they're not making enough money so in principle yes it may sound like a

quick fix and a good idea but it's how you do it that actually makes it an awful idea, especially for consumers over time. Yeah, because it always sounds okay. There's been a lot of talk, obviously the NDP were quick to point out that this was their idea. The candidates for the liberal leadership have been accused of stealing a lot of conservative ideas like scrapping the carbon tax, but this was actually an NDP idea. There's been an awful lot of talk

mostly from the NDP about going after grocers profits. Just for listeners to be reminded how much of this is down to that? I actually I think Mr. Singh is right. It was his idea. I've actually spoken to him about it but I did explain to him it's not necessarily desirable to do that especially in light of the fact that we want more choice and more competition and you don't want to mess around with with market conditions but this freelance idea around shrink inflation has some merit now to make it illegal I think is is is not necessarily something that you should be looking for, but there are issues with

shrinkflation, and one of them is with taxation. So a lot of people don't realize that when you go to the grocery store, when a product gets shrink-flated so much, that food product becomes a snack, and snacks are taxable, and that adds like an extra 5, 10, 15 percent more to your grocery bill and I've always believed this needs to be addressed by the gain revenue agency as soon as possible. So that's one thing about translation that I think should be addressed by Ms. Freeland. Yeah, are you saying that they make stuff, that stuff shrinks in size so much it goes from

being sort of a normal food item to being a snack item because it's so tiny? One example, so if you buy a box of granola bars and there's six in them, that's food, so that's not taxable. If you go down to five, that's snack and therefore that's taxable. Four muffins, not taxable. Two muffins, the same muffins, that's taxable. Four muffins, not taxable. Two muffins, the same muffins, that's taxable. Right, shrink-filation. I mean we're going to talk a lot of you know yeah. I don't know if you love ice cream but the Haagen-Dazs brand just recently reduced its format below 500 grams and if it's below 500 grams

that's taxable because it becomes a snack. Yeah there you go they're getting us from we're getting us coming and going. That's a big problem absolutely. Yeah this thing that we talked about a lot I think amongst other things with tariffs and so on if you know discontinuing a fight with the US but but in terms of just what we should be looking out for I suppose easy solutions like capping profits just don't work. I don't think we should be doing that now of course banks now face a windfall tax over the last couple years but banks are very different. Cost margins and then margins are much higher. Grocers margins are

anywhere between two to four percent. It's nothing and people need to keep that in mind. Yeah, Sylvain, always a pleasure. Thank you. Take care, Ben. Bye-bye. Sylvain Chalablou, Canadian researcher and professor specializing in the food industry. Well, over the ages, people have found ways to meet and marry in many different ways. It used to be very small in many parts of the world.

Arrangement, which is where we're prominent, they still are in parts of the world. But now we've sort of entered a new way of meeting and getting hits, so to speak, and that's artificial intelligence. In other words, algorithms pairing us up with people who should be perfect matches, right? But often, what about opposites attract?

Isn't that a truism as well? So how does it work? Is AI actually the answer? Do we want to meet someone that AI thinks is perfect for us? How would AI know, right? These are things that are often, love is a strange thing. Can machines figure it out? Well, it's obviously huge business.

That goes without saying. But Mahika Agarwal, she's a journalist, editor, and author of an article called, Can a Machine Find You a Soulmate Inside the AI-Powered Matrimony Boom? And Mahika joins us now. What a fascinating topic, Mahika. Thank you so much.

Hey Ben, thank you so much for having me on your show. Tell me a bit about where you dug into this because you went to a country, specifically you went to India, where arranged marriages are still quite common, where AI is sort of taken off as well as a way to sort of find a perfect mate in a country where finding a perfect mate is still in some senses a bit transactional. Yes. Yeah. transactional. Yes, yeah, so I wrote this story for my thesis project at Columbia Journalism School and I was really interested, having gone through the

process of arranged marriage myself in India, I was really interested in reporting on how this centuries-old phenomena really is changing with technology and all the wonderfully weird complications that technology is introducing into an already complex process. Yeah, so in India, you have your traditional word of mouth referrals, which are strong as ever. But now you also have these multimillion dollar matchmaking companies like Jeevan Sati, shadi.com and the one that I talk about in my stories,

Betterhalf.ai, which is sort of the latest pioneering AI app in this game. You mentioned there are about 1500 of them in India. How do they work? How exactly? So you feed in all the data and they sort of spit out your perfect batch? Is that how it goes? Yes, they work a little bit differently than your traditional dating apps in North America like Bumble or Hinge. Shadi and Jeevan Sati are specifically more on the sort of old school end where you sort of complete a profile and it lists different profiles with your photos and the criteria include everything from complexion

to skin tone to your height to your cast. So it's sort of much more in the orthodox line of matchmaking and Betterhalf is sort of designed to look more like a new agee dating app but it's still in the back end uses a lot of the orthodox mechanisms of traditional matchmaking in India. Right. Does it work? I think you mentioned in one of your examples that two people who seem to be perfectly matched,

because as you know, the old saying goes, opposites attract, right? Which is not always true, but you had one couple who seemed to be very much alike who ended up didn't work out at all. Yeah, I think theth made a false match and that example was supposed to uh... fat of the user and the reader to see how these examples can fail and i interviewed the develop

developer of the app and he said well my algorithm didn't know they went to the same school but look they ended up going to the same school that in itself is the accuracy of my algorithm didn't know they went to the same school, but look, they ended up going to the same school. That in itself is the accuracy of my algorithm because it matched the mental wavelength and it caught the mental wavelength. But yeah, still compatibility at the end can only be measured so far. It's a qualitative variable.

And you know, people keep evolving. So that's a hard one to capture on an app. Yeah I was going to say can an algorithm determine your partner for you? I mean it sounds logical, literally logical, but I gather in practice more complicated. Yeah it's much more complicated. I think a professor at Columbia University, Garud Iyengar, who works in the Department of Industrial Engineering and Operations Research, he put it well, he says that AI should be used to increase your choices not to find your mate. So I think it's a good way

to come across different prospects who might, who you might not have exposed to through your family and friends circles. But after that, it kind of needs to be up to the two partners to take it forward and gauge compatibility. Yeah, how is technology, I mean, the whole notion of arranged marriages, of course, you obviously lived in Canada, the US as well, you know, it's obviously different than how it unfolds here. How is technology sort of denting what is a very old tradition in India, whether your judgments aside? I think it's kind of echoing a lot of the sort of amplifying a lot of the existing problems in the institution.

So I talk about matrimonial fraud, for instance. A lot of people are using these platforms to con marginalized populations and vulnerable groups that might be on the app, like single women, people in the LGBTQ community, elderly people who might not be very tech savvy. And then obviously there's a problem of bias in any algorithm and an AI,

where it makes assumptions about certain populations based on demographical data. And so for instance, in the case of matchmaking, there were certain platforms that were only matching people from a certain caste to members of the same caste, and it was making assumptions about a caste system in India, which is really problematic. So yeah, I think it's amplifying a lot of the existing problems that currently exist

in Indian matchmaking. Right. Although clearly, it seems to be, for the successful ones at least, very lucrative. Yes, it is. Its retention rates and its success numbers are high, no doubt. I think we just need to find a way

to move forward that's more inclusive and ethical. Yeah. Where to from here then because clearly it's a growing industry, it must be an evolving industry as well, they must be learning from mistakes and getting better as they go. Yes, for sure. I think right now better half, the biggest one in the field, it doesn't have filters. You can't tell it if you're non-binary, you can't identify

as an LGBTQ member, but I interviewed the developers and they said that's hundred percent within their value systems to quote them and that's something they're gonna work to integrate in the app so yeah I hope to see some of that inclusivity soon. Yeah, Mahika I appreciate your time thank you so much. Yeah thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much, Ben. Have a good day. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC optimum

points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. This is that great part of the show where we take a historical look at some great figures. If you don't follow Craig Fairs on social media, please do. Canadian History X, always informative. I catch it most days. We're taking a historical look at Richard Pierpoint and Jackie Robinson's time in Montreal. Craig, thank you. Oh, thanks for having me.

Tell me about Richard Pierpoint, not someone I'm familiar with. Well Richard Pierpoint is somebody kind of very early in our history. He actually was an enslaved person who was brought from Senegal to the, well, what eventually became the United States. And eventually he did actually gain his freedom just prior to the American Revolution. And then he actually served or fought with Britain not once, but twice in the American Revolution and then in the War of 1812, and lived in present-day Canada and attempted to build a life here, but is best remembered for his service to Canada in the two

wars. Yeah, and tell me a bit of why have we forgotten about him a little bit? Where did you dig up his story? Well, I first heard his story through a heritage minute. I think I probably heard a lot of stories for the first time on heritage minutes. And that's where I kind of first heard about him. But he's not really well remembered, except for maybe in his area of Canada where he settled, because it's just one of those stories that kind of slips through the cracks that a lot of people don't know about, but he was somebody who, who tried to create a settlement for black Canadians.

And, you know, he did encounter racism and things like that, despite his service to, to Britain and to Canada. And he helped raise a black regiment in the war of 1812. He wasn't put in charge of it. It was actually a white officer who was, but he's very well remembered just for that

because of his, he was 60, you know, in the 60s and 70s, and he's fighting in the War of 1812 in some pretty significant battles like the Battle of Queenston Heights, the Battle of Fort George. So he really did put a lot of service in for his country. Right, and considering these days, the sort of back and forth between the US and the notion of the 51st state,

we've been talking a lot more of late about the War of 1812 between then a British colony and the Americans. Yeah, absolutely. So it is very timely. It's both Black History Month, but also we do have a lot of talk of War of 1812. I've definitely seen the White House burning painting quite a few times on social media the past few weeks.

So it definitely is something that comes up in conversation a lot. And Richard Pierpoint is a big part of that because he was a in the United States for at least a portion of time and then fought against the United States twice. Yeah. Well, Richard Pierpoint, somebody didn't know much about Jackie Robinson is someone I know more about. Of course, I grew up in Montreal. fought against the United States twice. Montreal fans would get their first chance to cheer on Jackie Robinson when he played his first home game on May 1st. In attendance was Montreal Canadian star Maurice the Rocket Richard, who was there

to show his support. The Montreal Gazette wrote, Jackie Robinson was given a big hand by the crowd the first time he appeared at bat. After the game, Robinson stayed on the field and signed autographs for an hour. Fans treated him like a hero, and it was unlike anything Robinson had experienced in the United States. The Robinsons lived in a brick duplex building, a short walk from the stadium. He said that when he walked back and forth to practice or a game, people would pop their heads out their windows and cheer him on. He said, quote, The only thing the people of Montreal were asking was that I do the best I possibly can for the

Montreal ball club. Robinson's teammate,-Pierre Waugh said, Up in the stands, no one dared insult Jackie. He was black, but in their eyes and hearts, the fans didn't see that. I heard obscenities thrown at him in the United States. In Montreal, he was always respected as a baseball player. Yeah, a little taste of Craig Barrett's work from Canada History X on the late great Jackie Roberts, who of course spent a short but very meaningful time in Montreal playing for the Montreal Royals. What an incredible story, Craig, as always. And you found out some really interesting stuff about his time in Montreal, north of the border. Yeah, it's another thing that I think I learned about from a heritage man in the 1990s. And

his story in Montreal, I think is one that Canadians really like because it's so different from his story in the United States, especially in the South. He's in Montreal, he's very much accepted and he called his time in Montreal, some of the happiest, like the happiest, one of the happiest years of his life. His first child was, I think just about to be to be born I think was born in the United States but both him and his wife really loved Montreal and Montreal loved them like it I said in the in the clip it was all about as long as you're trying your best and and helping the team we don't care what colour you are and I think that's something that Canadians really latch on to for sure yeah of course the loramier stadium where the Royals played is long gone but

you could still start I think for a while there was a big move to try and get a plaque put up I forget if they actually did it or not but it's in a part of Montreal now you'd never know that it was a baseball stadium and the home of the Royals back in the day but but Robinson even won a championship with the team that year. He did he actually led the league in batting average and fielding percentage and was the league MVP. So it was a banner year for him. And then he led the team to a league championship. And when they were ranking the greatest minor baseball teams of the 20th century, that team was actually listed as one of the top 100 because it was so good.

And Jackie Robinson was a big part of that. And I believe there is a statue of Jackie Robinson outside of Olympic Stadium, I think. That's right. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Of course, Branch Rickey brings them up. He spends that year in Montreal, but he goes back to make his debut in Major League Baseball with the Brooklyn Dodgers. But when you look back at that legacy, it really is one of those parts of that Canada sort of inserts itself, but a really important part of American baseball legacy. And part of that, I guess, is, is what's so endearing about the about the Jackie Walton story and that one brief year that he spent in Montreal. Absolutely. And it is something that is often glossed over in the, in the fact that he did

break the barrier in major league baseball. I even think in the movie that came out just a little while ago, it's only like very briefly that Montreal is part of it, but it is a significant portion because this was a testing ground. This was to see how white crowds and white players would respond to a black player playing baseball. So if it didn't go well, he might not have made it to the majors, but because things were so successful with Montreal, it really led him to playing for the Brooklyn Dodgers the following season. Yeah, I remember hearing one description of this and maybe you could correct me if I get

the wording wrong, but at one point when they win the championship, there's essentially a crowd and he's being chased because they're chasing him out of love. And they had absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of his, I think it was either him or one of his teammates said that that was the first time that a black man had been chased out of love rather than hate and definitely something that Robinson probably wasn't used to. Yeah. Where can you find it? Where can people find the show, Craig? You can find the show on all podcast platforms, Canadian History X, EHX, and then it will plays this weekend across the Chorus Radio Network. Just check your local listings to see whether it's Saturday or Sunday

you can hear the episodes. Yeah. And then we found out more today about Richard Pierpoint and of course, reminded ourselves of what an incredible contribution, what incredible time Jackie Robinson had. Craig, as always, I really appreciate your time. Thank you. No, thanks for having me. opioid to those who need them to try to get them off illegal drugs, right? It's called safer supply. For a long time, there had been those saying that a lot of this supply was being diverted, was being somehow overprescribed and then sent out into the black market. Why? It wasn't obvious exactly what was going on. There was some, you know, some of it had to do with the amount of

money pharmacists get paid for writing prescriptions, some was just people selling it off to buy other drugs. We didn't quite know, but one thing we did know is the provincial government of BC, and the federal government for that matter, denied this was ever happening, denied that this was an issue. There were too few people being prescribed this stuff for it to really matter. And then a document appears from the BC government that essentially lays bare that all of this was essentially true, that there is a huge problem with diversion. Adam Zio has been at the forefront of this.

He's a National Post columnist, also the executive director for the Center for Responsible Drug Policy. He joins me now. Adam, thanks so much for your time. Justification. Justification, you said. I told you so. I guess you're saying that these days.

Yeah, you know, what's funny, some of my friends were posting on X that you know, this is Adam validation day, vindication day. Because I've been saying this for two years. For two years, I've been doing report after report showing that diversion is endemic. You know, I found examples of trafficking online, I interviewed former drug users, I interviewed former drug traffickers, I interviewed dozens of doctors and the federal government and provincial government kept on saying it's not true. And they called me a liar. They said I was spreading disinformation. And guess what? Everything I said was happening was actually happening. And now we find out that the provincial government in BC has been investigating this for a while,

did not tell the public. and we only know about this because some brave whistleblower shared these documents with us, well, with reporters. Yeah. How does it work? Because I think one understands that if you have a certain amount of safe supply,

safer supply, I should say, you can understand the value of that of trying to get addicts off illicit drugs. That being said, where was this going wrong? And I think you can point it out quite clearly. Well, so there are two main problems here. So first of all, the drugs that we give out via safer supply are not strong enough for fentanyl users. So we predominantly give out something called hydromorphone. It's an opioid as strong as heroin. But the problem is that

fentanyl is 50 times stronger than that's what's 50 times stronger than heroin or hydromorphone it's an opioid as strong as heroin But the problem is that fentanyl is 50 times stronger than that's all 50 times stronger than heroin or hydromorphone So if you are a fentanyl addict, which is what most hardcore addicts are and someone gives you a bottle of hydromorphone Then it's not going to do anything for you Now the second problem is that there is basically no expectation that you consume these drugs under supervision because, you know, God forbid that would create a barrier that, you know, might create a problem with you accessing your dive, your, your safer supply. So we try to keep this stuff as low barrier as possible. We don't mandate witness consumption. So when you give people bottles and bottles and bottles of powerful opioids every single day, but it's not powerful enough compared to what they're used to,

they're going to do the rational thing in a situation. They're going to sell their free drugs to make money to buy the fentanyl that they want. And that ends up flooding communities with pharmaceutical opioids, which then hook people into addiction, causing some of them to graduate onto fentanyl. So we're not mitigating the market. We're exacerbating it. And now we find out from this new report that you have corrupt healthcare providers who are cashing in as well. Yeah, it all sounds as you point out, it all sounds very familiar, doesn't it? Yeah, no, it's the Oxycontin crisis 2.0. All of this happened 20 years ago with Oxycontin, you know, because of Purdue Pharma, which by the way,

Purdue Pharma manufactures most of the hydromorphone, which is dispensed through safe supply. So they're making a lot of money off of this too. But we are suing them for Oxycontin and yet handing them wheelbarrows of money for safer supply. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Adam Zibo is with us. We're talking about, he's a national post columnist who's been working on this story for a long time and was dismissed for a long time by many who said that his article saying that safer supply this is drugs that are sort of drugs are headed out to addicts try to get them off illicit drugs was actually being sold onto the black market as he was

pointing out mainly because it's not powerful enough for those who are looking for quote-unquote a fix so they're selling off to go buy what they really want and also pharmacies taking advantage of the fact that they get paid per prescription, and basically prescribing too much. But all sounds very familiar. Adam, why did it take the government so long? It's really you see these documents now that suggest they've known that this was true for a while. Why did it take them so long to admit that this was happening? Because it would be politically catastrophic to to acknowledge that this addiction intervention, this experiment that you invested so much capital into was not only ineffective, it was actually exacerbating the national addiction and overdose crisis and federal liberals realized that this would be a giant liability. So rather than own up to the fact that they made a terrible mistake, they tried to lie to the public about this. And what I can say and what I haven't reported is that I know through my contacts that Minister Yara sacks. So the minister of mental health and addiction at a federal level, when she came in to the back, I think in late 2023, um, she wasn't asking doctors does this work? She was asking whether or not she, how she could defend this from the conservatives. So what I'm hearing from my contacts suggests that she prioritized

her own partisan gain, right? Her own party's political survival over the efficacy of an intervention that's supposed to save lives. And I think that's grossly irresponsible. Yeah, what is the impact then? I mean, you've talked about addictions. Well, I gather there are accusations that this has spilled over into other problems.

Well, I mean, the problem is that safer supply is actually available pretty much everywhere in Canada, except for Alberta, where it's been essentially banned. And interestingly enough, it's actually less regulated in Ontario. So people will, you know, focus on BC because BC has that reputation, because the BC NDP as the ruling government are seen as,

you know, they're very progressive. But in Ontario, under the nose of the Ford government, it's worse in BC, for example, typically safer supply patients will get 14 eight milligram tablets of hydro morphone a day. And just to keep in mind, two or three of these is enough to induce an overdose and inexperienced user. In Ontario, you can get 23rd, be 40, right? Like you can get much more. And what I'm here, addiction doctors in Ontario, is that, um, not only, you know, is the price of hydromorphone collapsed, it used to be $20 a pill for an eight milligram. Now it's 50 cents to $1, maybe two or three, depending on how you buy it. But you have a significant decline in the number of people who are seeking traditional addiction therapy, for example, methadone, because they don't want to do the hard work of recovery when they can easily get free opioids, just, you know, indefinitely from the government. instead. So where to from here that I mean, you've done all this work, I suppose this is it's time now like many things to take a good car cold, cold, hard look at safer supply everywhere. Well, I think that we need to we need to first of all reform safer supply, I think it could have a use in addiction treatment, or particularly unstable patients for whom every other treatment has failed, right? But if we're going to do do that we need to make sure that there are high barriers to access not as not not what we see right now right now anyone can essentially get it which is why we're dissuading people from you know going on methadone and then on top

of that need to have witness consumption because that would immediately fix diversion problem even if that means we'd have to significantly curtail availability of safer supply in light of the fact that our capacity to witness this program is quite limited. And then on top of that, we need to have a recovery strategy because right now people get these drugs indefinitely. We need to have an exit plan for everyone. Adam, thank you so much. Great work. It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me. Adam Zito, National Post columnist about work that he's done on diversion of safer supply. Again, it goes without saying, we need to crack down on this and make it better. Daniel Blanchard is no ordinary thief.

His heists are ingenious. His escapes defy belief. And when he sees the dazzling diamond CC Star, he'll risk everything to steal it. His exploits set off an intercontinental manhunt. But how long can CC Star stay lucky for Daniel? I'm Seren Jones, and this is a most audacious heist. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.