The Ben Mulroney Show - Is the separatist movement in Alberta a potential National crisis?

Episode Date: April 30, 2025

Guests and Topics: -Is the separatist movement in Alberta a potential National crisis? with Guest: Jason Kenney, Former Premier of Alberta and Federal cabinet minister If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Conditions apply to all benefits. Visit pcfinancial.ca for details. Welcome back to the Ben Mulrooney Show. And as if you know anything about me, you know that I like to say I take the world as it is, not as I want it to be. And the world that I want to live in is a world where the Canadian Confederation is strong and healthy

and every province feels respected and everyone feels so very strongly and positively about being Canadian. That is not the world we live in. That is not the country we live in and unfortunately there we've had bubbling resentment in all parts of the country at different times. We've had our focus on Quebec many many times but over the past few years and specifically the past few months, the attention has turned out west to Saskatchewan and Alberta with a burgeoning separatist movement that could become something serious. And the Alberta government has introduced Bill 54, the Election Statutes Amendment Act on Tuesday, aiming, as they say, to enhance the integrity and accessibility of provincial elections while emphasizing referendums several

times in its announcement, signaling pushback against the federal liberals. And at first blush, it looks like barriers are being taken down to make it easier for referendums to be triggered on issues like separation. To discuss this we're going to talk to the guy who brought in my opinion sanity and a calm cool thought and discussion to CBC's election coverage Jason Kenney the former Premier of Alberta. Welcome to the show, sir. Good to be here, Ben. Okay, so did I lay it out correctly or do you take issue with anything I said in the preamble? No, that's right. Just a little more context. I actually, as premier, brought in the law that allows citizens to, if a number of people sign a petition,

they can force a referendum on just so if there are issues where politicians are ignoring that are really big public priorities the population could have its say but we kept quite high thresholds on that to avoid frivolous abuse of that you don't want the tail wagging the dog in a democracy you don't want you know 5% of people forcing a huge divisive debate that 90% don't want. Yeah. And so what Ms. Smith announced yesterday is a radical, like I think it's about a 75% reduction in the thresholds required to trigger a referendum following an initiative petition. Yeah, so that, I mean, I spoke with Premier Smith yesterday

on the show and I asked her on her perspective as it relates to Alberta federal relations. And I said, are you worried that the feds might cross a red line from which Alberta won't be able to come back? You cross the Rubicon and once you're there, you're there. And she said, no, they've already crossed the line and now I'm asking them to walk back. And so that to me is an interesting perspective

and given this new context and given this lowering of the threshold, I've got to I've got to wonder whether I mean, is it wrong to suggest or to ask is, is she, is she, is she laying the groundwork for what would ultimately be a referendum on separation? referendum on separation? Well, I think she probably doing two things. One is implicitly using the separatist threat as a potential leverage against Ottawa. And then secondly, playing to a very angry cohort of Albertans looking like she's throwing them an opportunity potentially to separate. So the context here then is that there's a long history of Western and Alberta alienation. It really peaked around the National Energy Program when Pierre Trudeau in the early 90s

tried to basically destroy our largest industry with a government massive regulation and takeover. A certain prime minister you knew repealed that policy in the 19 later in 1980s and for the better part of 30 years that Western alienation was there but it was really it had abated a lot. Kretchen approved all the big oil sands projects. Stephen Harper was a hometown boy. And then, you know, Trudeau has brought in policy after policy slamming our ability to develop our resources and people get increasingly frustrated. But that doesn't make Albertans separatists. And I think that's where this conversation

is counterproductive. Because I think Albertans are overwhelmingly patriotic Canadians. Yeah, and that's the thing, Jason, the fear, the pushback to even asking the question is, if you say it, you're going to make it real. And you don't want to manifest something that isn't actually happening. And so, you know, you've been the premier of Alberta, you've also worked with the federal government. So give me your snapshot of where you think the people of Alberta, but you've also worked with the federal government. So give me your snapshot of where you think the people of Alberta are today, and what do you think Mark Carney and his new Liberal government need to do to start mending those fences?

Well, I think that he made some, I think, positive noises early on that I hope Albertans can take at his word. One was he wants to turn Canada into an energy superpower. It was an unqualified statement. It was borrowing a phrase from Stephen Harper at a speech he gave in 2006 and he talked about getting major energy projects done including pipelines and basically he said he wants to sit down with provinces companies late unions in and first nations to figure out which projects to get behind so that's all that all sounds very good but on the other hand

uh... he has promised to continue the submissions cap which is basically a cap on production which implies that we would even if we build more pipelines there will be the signal the regulatory rule will be that oil companies cannot develop more energy to ship through those pipelines. So that's a huge problem, and that means there will be a flight of investment. But the other things like the clean electricity standard, Alberta doesn't have any hydro, neither does Saskatchewan, we don't have nuclear, not yet. So that would say we have to take out gas, which means we're left with intermittent unreliable wind and solar and brownouts. A lot of other policies, increasing the industrial carbon tax

massively, which would be a real uncompetitive slam to our trade exposed industry. So these and other policies seem in conflict with the generally pro-energy signals that he's given. And I just hope he comes out of the gate quickly, not just for national unity purposes, but for national prosperity. Yeah. I think the key issue around this last election that where most Canadians agree is that to deal with the threats from Trump, we need a stronger Canada. And that begins with developing our most valuable export product, our energy.

Jason, where does the Conservative Party go from here? There's a lot to hang their hat on, a lot to be proud of in this election, but the fact is that Pierre did not get them over the hump, which is what he said he was going to do. I believe that automatically triggers a leadership review. What do you think the next six months to a year look like for the conservatives? Well, I think he's earned the right to stay on.

Obviously, the loss of his own writing is really tough. I know he was a very focused constituency MP, but for the last two years, he's had to be all across the country, not in his writing. But listen, he had the highest share of popular votes since your dad in 1988, 37 years ago for a conservative, the most gross votes ever for a conservative since 1867, broke new ground. I was just looking at results in Windsor with this massive swing from apparently blue collar union working people from the NDP to the conservatives all across southwestern Ontario, other parts of the country, younger voters doing very well amongst canadians there seems to be a strong correlation

of support in for example south and east asian canadian committed so but all of those are quite remarkable positives he was the most he has been the most effective opposition leader yes in my lifetime if not post-war history i think the problem there is he probably was probably too effective result activity he got rid of justin trudeau history i think the problem there is you probably was probably too effective result back to the

you got rid of justin trudeau the liberals realize they have no choice but to repeal the carbon tax and uh... and a lot of people started to see him leader of the opposition rather as prime minister that was probably part of that divide or brand issue at the end between him minister carney so i think this is giving all of that counterproductive for

the conservatives to change leaders yet again, to do that every three or four years. I don't think that there's any wisdom in that. If we assume for a second that Pierre Poliev does find his way to continue leading this conservative party, do you think it would behoove them to affect a tonal shift in the House of Commons to be more, I appreciate the role of the official opposition is to oppose, but perhaps oppose in a less aggressive confrontational way? Yes, in a word, yes. The role of the, you're right, the role of the leader of the opposition is to oppose but also to propose an alternative government. And I think he did that with a lot of good policy stuff, but maybe not as much in tone as he should have. You know, some advice I

would have given him is get on a plane a year ago, go to Washington, meet the congressional leaders in both parties, give a speech at a centrist think tank about the importance of NAFTA, which distances you from Trump's protectionism. Do something like that in London. Go to Kiev and meet Zelensky. Go on the world stage. Look like a prime minister.

Jason. Turn down the volume knob on the opposition stuff because people already know he's really in opposition. Jason Kenney, we're going to leave it there. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thanks, Ben. This is the Ben Mulroney Show and we march on each and every day. Thanks, Ben. to separation after the liberal election victory in the federal election. We spoke with Jason Kenney earlier in the show and he said this was legislation that

he put into effect so that if there were issues that the government was ignoring, that the people felt demanded attention, that the people could rest control on that one issue and trigger a referendum in that province. But the barrier to entry was significantly high because as he said, he didn't want the dog, the tail to wag the dog. In this amendment to the legislation proposed by the premier, it looks like the barrier to entry

is now significantly lower, making it a lot easier for a citizen triggered referendum. Here is what Premier Danielle Smith said about the door being open to separation. I believe in Alberta sovereignty within a United Canada. However, there is a citizen initiated referendum process that if citizens want to put a question on a ballot, and get enough of their fellow citizens to sign that petition, then those questions will be put forward again, I don't want to put a question on a ballot and get enough of their fellow citizens to sign that petition Then those questions will be put forward again

I don't want to prejudge what a question might be but not by our government So that the question is as a country should we be genuinely worried about Alberta's desire or a portion of? Albertans desire to possibly leave Canada on a scale of one to ten how serious should should we be taking this? And let's welcome Brandon to the show. Hey, man, thanks for taking my call. Thank you. I don't want Alberta to leave, but can you blame them with the way the government's been treating them?

And the other thing is, if you think Mark Carney is gonna be working with them to build pipelines, you got another thing coming. He's gonna slow production down there like it's nobody's business. So I don't want them to leave but I don't blame them if they want to. They got to look out for themselves and their families. Yeah listen I can see absolutely I can see why there would be anger and Jason

Kenny was clear like Albertans are exceptionally patriotic. This is not yet I don't think a movement. I'd love to hear from people who have roots in Alberta. But I just don't know that we should be making it easier to trigger the referendum. I felt the same way in Quebec when people asked, what defines a clear majority? I was like, well, 50% plus one. And I always said, no,

that's not good enough to break up the country because in the mind of a separatist, a yes for separation is a yes forever and a no is a no for today. And so you need to clear a higher bar than 50% plus one because you might be able to get people emotional for one day and then the next day they might regret it. You have to you have got to overcome the the delta for regret. But thank you for the call Brandon. Who do we have next? We've got Dave, welcome to the show. Hey, Ben. You know, really, really quick, I think it's like a divorce, like sometimes there's a point of no return. And it's better to just go your separate ways, because you'll end up doing like,

really, like harm to each other. You know what I mean, and harm to your personal self. And I think, I think, uh, we should take it very seriously. I think not only Alberta, I think Saskatchewan think manage, I think portions of BC and Northwestern Ontario, uh, we'll all, uh, look at possibly either joining, making their own country or joining USA, which I would not like to see. But I think the writing is on the wall. You know what I mean? I think it's pretty clear when you look at that electoral map of what's going on.

Well, I and I take your point. I don't I don't look at the electoral map and see the same conclusion that you come to. I come to the conclusion that work has to be done. Work can be done. And Mark Carney has said the things that need to be said, in my opinion, he has to do the things that need to be done. And that is, I mean, far too often in this country,

we've heard lip service paid to one area or another by politicians. Lip service will not be enough to change what's happening on the ground in this radio host's humble opinion. But thanks for the call, and let's welcome Scott to the Ben Mulroney Show. to change what's happening on the ground in this radio host's humble opinion. But thanks for the call and let's welcome Scott to the Ben Mulroney show. Scott, you there? Yeah, hi.

Sorry about that. No problem. How are you? I'm well, thank you. Good. I think this is a very, very, very serious issue. Like I would rate it a 10, being that that's the worst. I think what's going to happen right now, the angry street poll that was released

just before the election said that 30% of Albertans would vote for secession if Mark Carney was elected. The issue here is that you put on top of that, Donald Trump coming in with some fancy things like dollars at par, US citizenship, lower taxes, all that stuff, they may not just secede, they may become the 51st state. You might be looking at Governor Smith.

Yeah, listen, I'm used about that months and months and months ago as what Donald Trump's end game might have been. I disregarded that quite quickly because I don't think he's actually thought long and hard about this. I don't believe that he has a strategy, but that could be an inadvertent conclusion to this whole drama. But Scott, you make some good points. Thank you very much. And look, I will point out that

30% is not, to get from 30 to 50% is a long way, but all it takes is a few circumstances to change. All it takes is for the economy to worsen, and all it takes is a few circumstances to change. All it takes is for the economy to worsen and all it takes is for one person to be able to lead that movement and take what is disparate groups and bring them together and have them row in the same direction. So it's not an impossible task. We're not so far off from it. I just don't know if it's an iceberg that we can't avoid. Dennis, welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Good morning, Ben. How are you? I'm well, thank you. I think this Western alienation slash

resentment needs to be taken very seriously. Over the course of the electoral campaign, I came across a 1915 political cartoon called the Milch Cow. I don't know if you ever heard of it. No. Basically, it shows a cow over top of a map of Canada and the head of the cow is in the West and it has Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. Oh, I found it. Hold on.

I'm looking at it now. Yes. Okay. Others are in Eastern Canada and they're being milked by three fat rich cats named Montreal, Ottawa, and Toronto. Oh God. This was 1915, this is over a century ago. Yeah, yeah.

It was already a thing then. But that actually proves- So it's been rooted. But yeah, but Dennis, that actually proves my point as well, since 1915, the movement hasn't necessarily grown. That doesn't mean it can't and I think I outlined three of the circumstances that could take it from being a cartoon into an existential threat for the country. If anything it made me admit that I was wrong because for the

longest time I blamed Papa Trudeau and his national energy program for creating this alienation obviously it was it predates oil. It predates oil, that's for sure. Hey, Dennis, thank you so much for your call. Let's welcome Mike to the conversation. Mike, how serious should we take Alberta, the disgruntled Alberta? Well, we should take it very seriously, especially Quebec. I mean, it's Quebec and Toronto that voted in this Liberal government in the first place. We need a little less seats in Toronto because it's basically Toronto, like that guy, last guy said,

the three guys milkin' the cow. Ottawa, Montreal, and Toronto are controlling the whole country. But Quebec's gonna be in for a giant reality check when, if everyone looks and sees how much Alberta subsidizes not just Quebec, the whole country. It's insane. So, I mean, I don't blame them for being mad,

but we should take this very seriously because they are the head of the cow. Alberta is the head of the cow and the body of the cow. And everyone else is suckling at those teats. Okay, we were talking about suckling teats with two tumus. Let's call them the golden goose. All right.

Yeah, yeah. Hey, Mike. One more thing, Ben. One more goose all right yeah I just got one thing that Pierre mentioned was that he talked about the WEF I'm not sure if you're familiar with them I am indeed yeah now now we got all realize that Mark Carney Trudeau was a WEF member and Mark Carney is big time to mark Carney's come out and out and he's even said back less than a year ago. Yeah. He said that the three staples to the new world order are digital IDs, TBDTs. Mike, Mike, I don't want to go down that rabbit hole today.

That's a rabbit hole for another day. But thank you. I got time for one more. I got time for Dan. So Dan, welcome to the show. And I'm going to give you 30 seconds, Mike, for 25 seconds. Great, you've got lots of points. Nothing Danielle Smith is saying is out of line and it's just people's emotions and feelings. She's all facts. They contribute what? Almost $14 billion in transfer payments out of Alberta to the rest of the country, including Ontario.

Yeah, hey Dan. And everyone is like, oh, we went to Alberta, when Quebec wants to separate, we just do Dan, Dan, I gotta leave it there, but thank you to everybody for being part of the conversation. Want to transform your space and your Sundays? Well, Home Network is giving you the chance

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