The Ben Mulroney Show - Is this the end of the road for a century-old business in Ontario?

Episode Date: August 29, 2025

 John D’Agnolo, President of Local 200 UNIFOR Samantha Dagres, Communication Manager at the MEI.  If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Twitter: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ TikTok: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome to the Ben Mulrini show on this Friday, August 29th. Welcome, welcome, welcome. We made it to the end of the week. I wish we were ending on what feels like a high point, but there's some heavy news today. specifically in the province of Ontario, and we are dealing with here in the province of the announcement that a town, an entire town is going to get gutted by Diageo, one of the biggest alcohol companies in the world, has made a decision to close up its operation in Amherstburg,

which is right outside of Windsor, and 200 people are going to lose their jobs by February. And this is the company that makes Crown Royal, which is that distinctly Canadian alcohol. And the question that we have now is who knew what, when, how did this happen? Could we have staved it off? Was this as it looks to be a decision that was made in the dark of night, in the cover of night? and were the stakeholders available to could we have staved this off?

I don't think we can. I don't think we could have. I think, as they say in French, les just en fait. And so let's welcome in somebody who has a stake in this. We're talking now with John Dagnolo. He's the president of local 200 Uniform, representing the workers of that area.

John, welcome to the show. Well, thank you for having me. This is a, I'm sure, sad news for your. members. Sad news for the community. And tell me what you knew and when you knew it. I knew it in the morning. I was in BC. And as you know, three hour difference. It was around five in the morning. I get the call saying that about five minutes before they were going to announce to the members, they had some individuals come from headquarters. to announce that they were closing the plant.

In saying that, we had no clue. None. We just put on a third shift. So imagine that. People left their jobs to come to this facility. And you're right.

It's an absolute devastating blow to that community. Because it's not just those 200 jobs. It's those 200 people who had the ability to live their lives, pay their taxes, go out to restaurants, buy groceries, buy gas. All of that goes away.

And so all those other sectors, all those other industries are going to be affected. Absolutely. They've been around for 100 years. There's generations of families in that community that have been working there. Yeah. And so when you found out, there wasn't anything you could do. The decision had been made. Well, never say never.

Okay. Because I'm going to get the opportunity, and I will get the opportunity to sit with the company and see what I can do. keep that plan open. Good for you. We were going into bargaining in the next couple months, and it's a shame that they didn't sit down with us prior to making this announcement saying, giving me the opportunity and the members the opportunity to keep that plant there.

Well, yeah, John, I want to ask because my producer spoke with the mayor yesterday, and the mayor let us know that every year he and his team go to the Diageo people and ask them, how are things going? what can we improve how can we make how can we make the experience of partnering with this town and the people who work here better for you and no at no point had any indications been given that things were that there were rough waters ahead absolutely not when you put a third shift on it's because we're producing a lot of alcohol yeah so it there was nothing we had no clue this was going to happen and that's what's stunning the community

That's what's stunning us, Uniform, for this to happen is absolutely shocking. So what we have to do is we've made some calls to the governments because we have to have them all on board and we have to sit down and see what we can do to keep that company there. We can't have this product move in the United States. This is a Canadian product. And I don't want this to happen whatsoever. No, I don't, none of us do. This is a, this is a, from what I understand, Amherstburg is, um, is, is a one of those, one of those towns that is magical when, when speeding is the biggest crime in the town. That's, that's, that's something that you want to keep alive.

Yeah, it is. It's a, it's a, it's a quaint town. Um, they all know each other. So you can imagine what, what's happening in that town as we speak. And they all take care of each other. Yeah. And I, I, I, It drives me crazy to see the pain in those spaces and the tears and not knowing what they're going to do and how they're going to feed their family. You've got to remember, our community has got the highest unemployment in Canada. So it's not like there's an abundance of jobs in our community. And we can't have this happen. These are well-paid jobs. And these members deserve a job. Yeah.

And it's also, you know, now I'm thinking about it. As you just said, generations of people in that town have been working there. I have to assume that family members, when they retire, they're proud to know that their children are picking up where they left off. It's not just a job. It's an identity for a lot of people, and that's being ripped away. Have you been given – did Diageo give you a reason? Did they say it was the tariffs? What did they say was the problem?

Well, they said it was a business decision. But in saying that, I, you know, I know they're building a mega plant in Alabama in a right-to-work state. And don't think for a minute, they're going to say they're, you know, they're moving a little bit of product to Valley Field, which is in Quebec. And they're going to, they're moving some in Plainfield in Illinois. But I can guarantee you that product will be moving to Alabama. Yeah. So we have to do some work. And we're going to do whatever it takes.

And it's going to be a collective action by us and our governments, because I think it's important. They play a key role in making sure that those jobs stay. So break it down for us as somebody who's been involved in similar situations before. What do you need from the different levels of government? What sort of commitment, what sort of buy and what sort of plan do you need? Well, I need the government to step up. If we have to, you know, we can put some grants.

can, but if we have to get to a point where we have to drop the hammer on them, we can't sell their alcohol in Ontario. Ah, they see that, you know, I was going to ask you that. Like, this is, this is, this is one of the actual tools that the Ontario government has, the purchasing power of the LCBO. It's huge and they can, they can hurt, they can really hurt the bottom line of any company. Would you, if they left, even though the distilling does, in fact, still happen in Canada, would you be comfortable with the government essentially labeling these this alcohol

American and therefore not to be purchased by the LCBO any alcohol that is being moving to the state should not be sold here in in Ontario and that that message should be sent across the vow when it comes to to Diageo and and the Amosburg plant so I'm very pleased I'm emboldened by your your unwillingness to say that the fight is over. I think that's a great attitude to have right now. And as you said, you still have some cards to play. At what point, though, is this fight over? Well, you never want to look at that, but at the end of the day, we'll be, at the end of the day, the fight's over when the, when the doors are locked. And we have nothing.

Yeah. I want John Danielo. I'm, like I said, very glad to speak to you today, feel awful that we're speaking on this topic. And just know that we will keep the spotlight on this as long as there is fight left in you. And if you ever feel like there's something that you want to get out to the public, you come back to the Ben Mulroney show and we'll give you time. I appreciate it and we'll be fighting to the end. So thank you for much for this time. Thank you very much. I mean, listen, these are these jobs, this is being lost on Donald Trump.

And the fact that he doesn't care, the fact that he doesn't care, the pain that I just heard in John Danielo's voice, the sadness, the frustration, I'm glad that what I didn't hear was a man defeated. I hear a man who's tired. But this is, there's got to be, there's something wrong with somebody who's willing to inflict this level of pain on, on other human beings. There is. And at some point, we need our government to say, you got to stop stealing. They're taking the companies and urging companies to leave our country. Yeah. The company, and because they've done that with the auto sector, Trump said, I don't want a single car built outside of America. Yeah, yeah. Well, he's now getting, I don't want booze done outside of America.

All right, we've got to run. Ottawa's payroll is out of control. Projecting hit $76 billion by 2030. What does this mean for Mark Carney coming up? Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show, and we've got a relatively new government with a new mandate to essentially fix a lot of the problems that were created by the previous government. And not for nothing, 86% of 80 some odd percent of the cabinet members that are going to problem solve or also the problem creators. But the election's over, so we're not going to prosecute that today. However, there's a new report out by an independent public policy think tank M.E.I that warned.

that ballooning personnel spending, projected to reach $76 billion annually by 2030, is a major driver of Ottawa's worsening deficits with no measurable gains in services to show for it. And so to talk about this, we're joined by a new friend of the show, Samantha Dagras. She's communications manager at M.E.I. Welcome. Thanks for having me again, Ben. Yeah, so this is, I mean, I knew, I knew that the size of the public service was out of control. I didn't know that the cost of maintaining that service, was going to be such so big that it would be, it would be a huge part of the problem.

Oh, absolutely. You know, we've heard that the previous government has overseen an expansion of over a hundred thousand employees in the federal bureaucracy. But now the PBO, which is often, unfortunately, the bear of bad news when it comes to our finances, has come out and said that it's going to cost us $76 billion by the end of the decade. And also by the end of the decade, per full-time employee with benefits and total compensation, we're looking at $172,000 per employee. So it's not cheap. And we're at kind of a junction point where this government has, as you said, pledged to cap,

not cut the bureaucracy. But it's looking like to get things in order, they'll have no choice but to cut it. Yeah, no, I listen. And no one wanted to, unfortunately, in the last election, you know, you're damned if you do, damned if you do it. You're damned if you tell the truth, which is what Pierre Poliyev did and damned if you don't. And now we're at a place where our prime minister, and listen, I'll, I'll ascribe good faith. You know, he probably ambitiously thought that he could get certain things done. And, and, but this is, this is a big, this is a, this is something you can't, you know, sort of walk around it.

You have to deal with this problem head on. And anybody who remembers how hard it was to get a passport just a few years ago knows that we've increased the size of the public service. It has not come with a commensurate increasing in the services that we receive. No, absolutely. I'm so glad you're framing it like that because it's often like how have services gotten worse. But, you know, for a 40% increase in workforce, we should be seeing a 40% increase in service. And I don't think any Canadian.

could say that they're getting that. The population of Canada has even grown by 40% and it has grown, right? Yeah, and nobody would suggest that the size of the public service in 2015 was not sufficient to do the job. It's not like he was, it's not like in 2015 there was a need to, quote, right size the public service. It was what it was and wherever it was, it could have been 10 times bigger or 10 times smaller. Justin Trudeau would have probably still ballooned it regardless.

Yeah, absolutely. And just to put it in perspective, this is about, seven, one in every seven government dollars going to the bureaucracy. That's huge. That's about the equivalent of what 13 million Canadians pay in just income taxes, which is a bit less than the populations of Quebec and Alberta combined. So this is a lot of money. And, you know, these are large numbers in the abstract,

but this is not money that has been taken out of Canadians' pockets. This is money that you can't spend on your kids at a grocery store, getting gas. This is not money as, you know, that business. can reinvest in themselves to get new capital to help their workers become more productive. This is money that's just taken. And as you said, with no commiserate outside, clearly. And I remember, you know, when I was a kid, I remember the way it was framed to me is like, listen, you can do one or two things in life.

You can either get a job in the private sector or get a job in the public sector. And if you get a job in the private sector, you can make more money, but you don't have the job security that you're going to have in the public sector. Now, if you go to the public sector, you'll probably have a job for life. but you can expect that you will not be making as much as a similar job in the public, in the private sector. That's not necessarily the case anymore. From what I understand, you get that job for life and you're probably making the same,

if not more, as you would, doing a similar job in the private sector. Absolutely. $172,000, again, total compensation is not what the average Canadian makes. I think it's about three times as much the average Canadian makes. So these are not, you know, the unions will have a sleep at these. or middle class jobs, and maybe at the entry level, but certainly not when you've been there for some time. So, again, and, you know, there are certainly hard workers in bureaucracy, but government

isn't set up to be efficient, so they're not effective at their jobs, unfortunately, and yeah, comprehensive review has been overdue. I'm glad that they're starting to have some grumbled in government about looking at departments and department sizes more particularly, but we're going to. have to see some drastic changes. Have you looked into it? Have you drilled into the departments that are probably the most overstuffed and the ones that are taking in the most money for actually delivering the lease for Canadians?

Well, the biggest department is the Department of Defense. I won't wait into it. Defense now is top of mind for this government. But we can look at other departments that we know are not. providing for Canadians, the CRA, among others. Oh, right. Yeah. One of the largest, one of the largest departments, they've grown by 17,000 over the last

decade. And I don't know about you, but I'm still waiting on the phone for an hour, trying to get someone to help me log into the website that never worked. Yeah. So let's have a review there first. Yeah, well, you would think that with 17,000 people, you'd be able to talk to a human being. Frankly, I don't understand how any government would want to be known as the government that increased the size of the tax man. That's not a badge of honor that anybody would want to

be with. So you believe that the sheer number, the mountain that the government's going to have to climb because of these numbers makes it so that attrition and waiting for people to simply retire or take a package is not going to be enough to stem the tide. and make this less of a problem? No, unfortunately, attrition won't cut it. We looked into another era of comprehensive review, which was the cutting government in the 90s, and they were able to reduce the federal workforce by over 17%.

And they did a combination of things. They were able to avoid mass layoffs. They did like voluntary departures and like early exit incentives, getting people to retire early. That would not cut it. But using that benchmark, that's 17%, because we've done it before, we can do it again, that would reduce the size of our current federal bureaucracy by 64,000 and save us $10 billion. So I think that's a good place to start.

And again, because we've done it before, we know how to do it. We've done it before. We know it, but the fact that we have to do it again, like, come on, the fact that we worked so hard, we felt all that pain. And I remember saying during the pandemic, I was like, we seem to be spending a lot of money. We seem to spend a lot more money than other countries. But I said, look, if by the end of this, every single piece of infrastructure in the country is paid for, our roads are good, our hospitals are good, like, you name it. If everything is in tip-top shape, maybe it will have been worth it. And then to turn around and see we've gotten absolutely nothing for the money.

And when asked, what did Justin Trudeau do? And he said, well, he got us through the pandemic. I always turn around and say, name one country that didn't make it through the pandemic. That's not a, it's how you got us through the pandemic. You can throw as much money as you want to. Did we need to spend that much money? And the answer is no. There's no other country in the world that spent the money we did and we've got nothing out of it.

So the fact that we are here again as a nation is just mind boggling. Yeah. And we need to do it now or else it'll just get worse and the pain will be worse, right? And, you know, you mentioned other countries. We've compared, like, the ratio of federal workers' population to, you know, countries with similar federal governments who procure similar services. In Canada, it's nine bureaucrats per 1,000. In Germany, it's six.

And the UK, it's seven. So why are we hiring more, paying more? And I don't think anyone would say that the Canadian health care system or any system is better than Germany. So, again, it just requires a lot of refraining. election and a lot of political courage. It's not going to be easy, but, you know, that's why, that's why they have the elections and that's why Mark Carney told us. He told us he came into politics because he knows how to handle this crisis. So we've got to put our faith in him. Samantha, thank you

so much. Have a great long weekend. Thanks, you too. We're renovating a hotel, expanding our resort, and breathing some life back into the lake house. Out of here. All while raising a family. It's messy, it's real, and it's all us. Exciting. I can't tell if that's your exciting face. This isn't just construction.

This is our life. Who needs sleep? Building Bomber. New series Sunday, September 7th. On Home Network. It's stream on Stack TV. I do.