The Ben Mulroney Show - Jason Kenney is tired of the cliches/MP Michael Ma, the secret santa scrooge!

Episode Date: December 15, 2025

Guest:  JASON KENNEY/.Former Alberta Premier Guest: Max Fawcett, Lead Columnist for Canada's National Observer -   Guest: Dimitri  Soudas, Former Director of Communications for Prime Minister Stephen Harper If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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where the BC extortion asylum list is now at 15. What that means is, you'll remember last week, there was a ring of extortionists that was, they were caught red-handed extorting people in British Columbia. None of them are BC residents. None of them are Canadian citizens. And as of this week, the customs of the CBSA has initiated immigration investigations into 103 foreign nationals with suspected links to an ongoing rash of extortion incidents in the province, many of which have targeted South Asian businesses in Surrey. Among those suspects, 15. There we go.

It's up one. Among those suspects, 15 have made refugee claims. And that means that they refer to the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, where their claims will be assessed on merit. And given the fact that the list, the backlog, is close to 300,000, they are likely free until they're hearing, which could be years from now. Refugee claimants are allowed to stay in Canada while their case is decided and may receive basic health care, the right to work, schooling their children, and last resort welfare.

So these people who have been accused credibly of a crime, oh, when they're back to into a corner, oh, now I'm a refugee. Oh, no, protect me, Canada. And then we have an obligation to do so using our goodwill against us and these people who have made a career of hurting other people

who elicit ill-gotten gains. Now they're refugees. They're not criminals anymore. They're refugees. And we have an obligation to take a look at their file in good faith. I'm sorry. I just, I don't see the, I don't see it. I don't see it. This is, this is yet again a situation where our system has been abused and therefore we have to

look at the system itself. We've talked about the Youth Criminal Justice Act and now for a very long time, it served a very real purpose and that purpose has been corrupted and taken advantage of where now there are criminal gangs that are going into our communities and finding the youngest of us amongst us to bring into their gangs so that they can do a lot of the work that used to be done by 18, 19, 20-year-old is now being done by 12, 13, and 14-year-olds and the good news for the gang

is those kids get off with just a wrap on the wrist. That's not what the Youth Criminal Justice Act was about. That's not why it existed, and therefore it is incumbent upon our government to take a good hard look at it and reinvent it in a way that recognizes the facts on the ground. And that's what's happening with our refugee system. 15 people, 15 people who used criminal activity to make the world a worse place

are now claiming refugee status. I have a simple fix. You cannot claim refugee status if you've been credibly accused of a crime. Full stop. You're credibly accused of a crime once it's established that you're a criminal. We kick you out. You go home. You go back to where you came from.

end of story. We don't need you here. We don't need more criminals in Canada. We have plenty of them. And if you decide you're going to come to Canada and make a life of crime, we send you back to where you came from. No, no claiming of refugee status, no nothing. Yeah? Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's likely that they're going to be free until they're hearing, which means that they're going to be able to collect on health care and right to work and school for children, welfare, which is wild. A news that has been breaking as we came to air, and this is in the United States, federal authorities say they have stopped a New Year's Eve terror plot in Southern California, alleging links to the Turtle Island Liberation Front, which is described as a far-left pro-Palestinian extremist group. Officials say the group was planning multiple bombings and may have intended to target ice agents and vehicles. There's a press conference with details to come.

But yeah, more of this. There's more of this. This is all, all of this is linked. The Bondi beat stuff. The New Year's Eve, New Year's Eve festivities canceled in Paris. The Christmas,

the Christmas markets that are perpetually in danger. This is all part, it is all part of the same thing. This is, but in Montreal, a Christmas market that was, people were being shouted down by pro-Palestinians who wanted to make up some insane belief

that Jesus was, Palestinian. And this isn't, I didn't even include that one of these massive markets in Germany was taken over by this huge group of people. There was no violence, but they took it over. Yeah. And so, ideologically took it over. This is, look, is it all part of the, it's all part of the same thing. And if you don't see it, I can't help you. I can't help you. But let's, let's go back to British Columbia. But actually, let's first talk, just add something about something else that's breaking, that Nick Reiner, the son of Rob Reiner, Yeah.

Was arrested. Okay. Yeah. He's being held on $4 million bail. As we spoke about earlier, Rob Reiner, the famed actor and director, along with his wife, was killed. Killed in their home. And when we found out it was being, it had been ruled a homicide.

People looked immediately to his son who has suffered from mental health issues. Yeah. It'll be very interesting to see how they, what sort of case they make against, against what Mark? Nick. Nick. Reiner, because, you know, will they say that he was in control of his faculties? It'll be, I don't know.

I have no idea. Yeah, but again, that's a story that will play out over the next days and weeks. Yeah, and look, I don't believe Spinal Tap 2 has come out yet. I don't think so, no. Yeah, Spinal Tap 2 is the long-awaited sequel to the Rob Reiner, her masterpiece, the mockumentary about an aging rock band. And that was from the 80s. So you can imagine what gems it's going to have 30-some-on-old.

odd years later, this long anticipated sequel to spinal tap. I'm sorry to add those extra two things, because that's taken away from what you were going to say about BC, so let's get right into it. Well, that's right. Okay, so as we know with the Cowichin land claim issue

that came up, it was made up essentially by the BC Supreme Court where they came out a few months ago and said, you know, there may be Aboriginal title to a lot of land that you may think you own the land in in Richmond, BC, but it may be owned by the Cowichens Tribe. And we've seen what that confusion has done in real time

with investment being pulled out of the city, with people not being able to renew their mortgages because the bank has said, look, until we know who owns this land, we're not going to double down on you owning that land. And so people have been stuck not being able to refinance their mortgages. This is happening to real people with real problems. and now the province has said that they're going to backstop the mortgages and loans. Premier David Eby says that BC is developing a plan to offer loan guarantees for homeowners

and businesses in the couch and Aboriginal title area of Richmond, which will allow banks to continue issuing mortgages, renewals, and business financing despite uncertainty from the court ruling. So here's the proposed scale of support. The government is planning roughly $150 million in loan guarantees, including about $100 million from Montrose properties. and 54 million for smaller property owners with the total potentially rising if more commercial activity is affected and more commercial activity will be affected. You think this is it?

Why would this be it? Why would it not end? Like, why would it end? You'd have to be, I mean, wishful thinking is not a strategy. So that's it. The solution is to, hey, you know, we've got your backup. We've got your back on this. 150 million in loan guarantees. From the taxpayer. Exactly. It's not the government's money. No. It's the money of the taxpayer of British Columbia. The same people who could be losing their property. They are guaranteeing their own property with their own tax money. Here's a tweet, which I think is important. Pledging taxpayer-funded backstop for a crisis you deliberately engineered is neither leadership nor reconciliation.

It is admitting a serious policy failure only after the damage is obvious, compounded further by forcing the public to underwrite it. Now, I don't know that I can say with certainty that the NDP government, deliberately engineered this crisis, but they certainly haven't helped it. They haven't helped it with the constant drumming of stolen land over and over and over again. But asking the public to underwrite it. Yeah, yeah.

That's the thing. Yeah. You know what? We don't have time for any. No, we don't have time for the rest of it. But yeah, this is, it's BC. It's crazy town. It's crazy town.

Hey, it keeps on giving. And sadly, for people, people in BC, it is, it does keep on giving. All right, we keep hearing about how there's no room for anti-Semitism here, but is that true? We'll discuss next on the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. And every now and then when you're trying to make sense of a tragedy like Bondi Beach, you know, we look to our leaders in the hopes of moral clarity, in the hopes of somebody drawing a line in the sand and saying on the other side of that line is everything that is wrong. And unfortunately, we have a lot of politicians today who say the right things on social media, but their actions belie what their true motivations and their true visions are.

and it's patently obvious if you're paying attention. So when you hear a former politician speaking the truth, you want to highlight that as best you can in the hopes of informing those in power today. Enter Jason Kenney, former Alberta Premier, former MP in Ottawa, former cabinet minister. Jason, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here.

I'm going to be back then. All right. So you took to social media and I'll just, it's a long tweet, but a good one. Why do politicians on the left like the prime minister? of Australia, always repeat the tired cliche that there is no room for anti-Semitism here following an attack on Jews. The point is, there is enormous room for anti-Semitism and the societies that they helped create, room created by lax immigration screening, rooms created by mobs that

take over the streets and public spaces, rooms created by the left's obsession with critical theory, rooms created, room created by actually funding the promotion of Jew hatred, and it goes on and on. Please spare us the no room here lie. Show us. serious. I don't think that that is asking too much. No, it isn't. And what, you know, what really terrifies me about yesterday is that could just as easily happen in Canada. Australia and Canada are many ways parallel, the most, probably the most similar societies, the most similar country to ours, culturally, historically, politically, politically. And, you know, Albanese is a labor-left politician who has played to the

anti-Israel crowd in his political base who, together with the government of Canada, rewarded Hamas and all of these people who have been screaming at Jews in our streets for the past two years by recognizing a non-existent Palestinian state. And the left broadly, look, this is not just a political thing, Ben, you know, from my social media, I'm always calling out, taking on expressions of anti-Semitism on the right, Tucker Carlson variety. But let's be honest, a lot of this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this hatred emerges from our universities, uh, where they've been obsessing over what they call anti-colonialism or critical theory or intersectionality. These are all fancy words that have given a, a intellectual

veneer of respectability, uh, to the world's oldest and most pernicious form of hatred, which has normalized the, the opinion environment that made yesterday possible. Well, one of the things that, that, that made yesterday possible is this constant drumming of the lie that, that, uh, If you're a Jew, you're a baby killer. If you're a Jew, you're a genocider, which isn't even a real word, but it's being used a lot. I guarantee you it's going to start popping up in dictionaries in the next few years. And so what do you do with war criminals? You bring them to justice.

And the two murderers yesterday were the type of people who believe that justice can only come from the barrel of a gun. To me, there's a line between allowing that type of lie to fester and take root and the actions that we saw by those people yesterday. Yeah, and Ben, we have to be, you know, we really have to be honest about this kind of violent anti-Semitism. This did not start yesterday. I remember about 15 years ago, you know, in October, I think it was 2011, I visited Babinjar, where Hitler began the Holocaust of the bullets,

massacred 35,000 Ukrainian Jews, shot them one by one through the SS, through them in mass graves. And a week later, I was in Mumbai, in India, and went to visit the Habad House that had been massacred by terrorists from Pakistan. And I realized across 70 years and two continents, there was a commonality that tied these things together, which is the oldest hatred in history that long predates the Gaza War. That in most cases, the hatred of Jews long predates the existence of the state of Israel. the reason the state of Israel exists is so that Jews have a refuge, a place to go to, to defend themselves from this ancient hatred. So I don't even grant that you're right that the hysteria over Israel's self-defense during Gaza has heightened the risk to the Jewish community. My point

is that this kind of intergenerational hatred that is inculcated in certain cultures is something that we have to face up to and deal with. And that means, as I say is that longest serving the immigration minister in Canadian history. That means we need stronger immigration screening. And it means we have to insist that people integrate into Canadian democratic values and leave behind their ancient hatreds. But what I don't get is in our own self-interest, why we are not looking at the facts on the ground and recognizing that there is this slow creep towards the attempt to take down

the very institutions that underpin Canadian society. We are seeing it across the border. federal authorities in the United States say they stopped a New Year's Eve terror plot in Southern California allegedly linked to the Turtle Island Liberation Front, which is described as a far left pro-Palestinian extremist

group. Just as, what's happening there could happen here. These things are not isolated. They are all part and parcel of the same movement. And I don't know why in our own self-interest, we aren't looking at the attacks on Jews and saying, you know what, that's part of an attack on the West.

Sure, you know, on exactly your point, I was just looking at a posting on X from a elected current Vancouver City Councilor. I'm out here on the West Coast who said, I think last year that he'd like to see both Israel and Canada destroyed. Yeah. This is the radical left. And by the way, this is not, this didn't just happen by happenstance. There is an opinion in certain universities which would become a hotbed. decolonization, any country which modern country that exists somehow is illegitimate. Well, I'll tell you, by the way, Israel is the greatest example of decolonization.

It was a British colony, and the people who inhabited it thousands of years ago have gone back to their homeland, restored their ancient language. They represent 2% of the landmass of the broader Middle East. And they're just saying, could we please have one place where Jews can go to to live in safety, because apparently that isn't even the beaches of Australia anymore. And look, I don't want to, I don't have answers, so I only have questions, but why is it? Like, what is stopping our leaders, and I'm looking to Ottawa specifically, but what is stopping them?

What, where is the sticking point? What is preventing them from having moral clarity on this issue? And more than that, self-preservation and the heart of the decision-making that they do. Why can't they look at the same facts on the ground that you and I are seeing and make decisions that would make us feel and be more safe because our streets don't feel safer? And when we hear these stories about what's happening in Australia in the United States, why do we think that we are somehow isolated from what is clearly a global phenomenon? Yeah, I think it's partly naivete. It's partly political cynicism. Unfortunately, I think some people are, you know, believe that, that,

that not really cracking down on sources of anti-Semitism is politically beneficial to them. And also, you know, I think that, and some is just a lack of courage. These things are not easy issues to take on. But if this kind of hatred continues to metastasize, the violence will only get worse. And I don't think any of us want to live in that kind of society, then I don't know about you. I have conversations with Jewish friends of mine in Toronto and elsewhere who say, I don't think my kids are going to be able to live in this country. And that, it turns my stomach to hear that.

So to any of your friends from the community who might be listening, I just hope they understand that times can look dark, but the majority, I believe, the vast majority of Canadians are decent people who stand with them. I agree. And I hope they know that as well. But I hope our friends who are on the other side who normalize this sort of thing, recognize that if there are political gains to be made, they are short term. Because in the long term, you're going to allow for this small group of people to take far more a root in society than they have right now. And God help us all if they grow in numbers.

and God help us all if they are emboldened by the permissive nature of society today because what's happening in, what happened on Bondi Beach could just as easily happen anywhere in this country. And I hope to be proven wrong, but I don't see anything to indicate that I am. Jason Kenney, always appreciative of your insights and of your voice on this show. All the best to you and have, Merry Christmas. Thank you, too, Ben. All right, when we come back, we've got the best political panel on radio.

It's the Ben Mulroney show marching on on this Monday, the 15th of December. At Capital One, we're more than just a credit card company. We're people just like you who believe in the power of yes. Yes to new opportunities. Yes to second chances. Yes to a fresh start. That's why we've helped over 4 million Canadians get access to a credit card

because at Capital One, we say yes, so you don't have to hear another no. What will you do with your yes? Get the yes you've been waiting for at Capital One.ca.orgia slash yes. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show, and what a great way to end a show on Monday,

always with our great political panel. It's this week in politics. The Monday edition with Max Fawcett from the National Observer and Dimitri Soutis, former Director of Communications for Stephen Harper. Gentlemen, happy Monday. Happy Monday. It was a heck of a way to end the weekend, though, to hear the news of Bondi Beach and that massacre. And the question I want to start with is, is what should Canada do with this information?

As I just speaking with Jason Kenney before the break, and it was something I echoed earlier in the show, so I was glad to hear, you know, he and I were thinking the same thing. There are very few countries that we would view as sort of analogous to Canada in the way that Australia is in terms of demographics and age and the dynamics at play. You know, a Western nation, a young Western nation dealing with built on immigration. And so what happened there could happen here. So the question I have is a big pie in the sky one, but how should Canada deal with the facts on the ground after Bondi Beach? We'll start with you, Max. Yeah, you know, like a lot of people, I have friends.

in Australia who were you know one degree of separation from this tragedy and and they are just gobsmacked shattered by this and you're right this this should really hit home for us because Australia is not a place with a gun culture is not a place you know that feels distant to to our own culture and so yeah this could happen here what what can we do you know I think we've seen the government you know reaching out offering consular services tightening up security here in Canada those are those are all good and important things beyond that i think we have to put more effort behind lowering the temperature on our political conversations our political disagreements you know we've seen this massive increase in anti-semitic uh rhetoric activity on the left on the right

and and those of us who are more in the middle kind of need to put our elbows up a little bit here and and demand that the the conversations that we have about politics no matter how How heated they get, don't get accelerated by, you know, the fuel that is social media, the fuel that is algorithmic amplification. We really have to kind of take a look at how these narratives and this hate is being allowed to spread. You know, I think that's, you know, broadly, that's a great idea. But I'm looking at what happened just yesterday in Toronto, where a conservative MP

was at the lighting of a menoron right across the street. And this was a residential area. were, I mean, they want to call themselves protesters, but they are instigators and agitators, and they are there to dehumanize. We're shouting people down while they were lighting their menorah. And, you know, Dimitri, I struggle to think of another religion for which we would tolerate this,

and we've been tolerating it for going on two and a half years in cities like Toronto. So just to pick up on Max's conclusion, the spread of hate. I don't want to sound simplistic. but i think the solution is very simple there must be serious consequences for people who spread hate it's one thing to protest for or against something whatever that something may be it is another thing to for example chant death to israel someone who chanced death to israel

for example should be charged should be jailed should be prosecuted what we have seen over the last couple of years is that there are no consequences And there is an old saying that goes by, if you give an inch, they will take a mile. If there are no consequences, those who hate Israel in this case, those who hate Jews in this case, will continue pushing the envelope further. Whereas if federal, provincial, and municipal authorities, and I'm talking about the police more specifically, actually enforce the laws, charge, arrest people who are spreading hate, then you will see a slow decrease of that temperature.

And look, Max, I, look, I can only look to the people in charge and the people in charge have been the liberal government for an extended period of time. Yes, there are the other levels as well. But I think, look, to me, hearing these things from a politician who then doesn't necessarily do anything about it, I kind of, I want these people charged and I want the courts to figure it out. And if there's been judicial overstretch, then fine. But at least it comes on these people's dime, you know, these people who have enough. time to go protest and scream, scream at children in the streets. I kind of want them to have to take a day off of work. In fact, they have a job. And I kind of want them to have to hire a lawyer. And I want this to come on their backs. And an example to me just needs to be set. Well, let's see where the line is after we've tested where the line is.

Sure. Let's enforce and set a line that is applied equally. That is applied equanimously. Yes. And let's remember that if we, if we, If we make this into a partisan issue, then we have already lost. You know, if we make this into a red hat versus a blue hat thing, then we're not going to get the kind of consensus that we need on this. And that, I think, speaks to the need to kind of depolarize and depoliticize this.

Anyone who is spreading hate against a people, against a religion, and making them feel unsafe, needs to be held accountable for their actions. Full stop. Yeah. All right. Well, let's have a, let's switch tactics. a little bit here. Let's have a little more fun because the Michael, the Michael Ma of it all where he was able to enjoy two Christmas parties last week, the Conservative Party before a Christmas party before switching sides and joining the Liberal Party. It took on a new

angle when we found out from MP Jamil Giovanni of the Conservative Party that at the Conservative Christmas Party, they had a secret Santa. Let's listen. Well, like most workplaces. We had a Secret Santa, and so everyone got assigned a name. I purchased my gift from my dear friend Mel Arnold, and when we were all giving out gifts, I didn't have one given to me, and I thought, wow, maybe someone forgot, you know, no judgment. And then when Michael Ma crossed the floor, I wondered, hmm, maybe I didn't get a gift because he decided not to give one. And maybe he decided to give it to a liberal instead. So, I did inquire as to who was supposed to be my secret Santa, and it turns out it was Michael Maugh.

I mean, I kind of love that, that he was able to go to two Christmas parties and sidestep his obligation of being the Secret Santa to Jamil Giovanni. And I'm trying to start with the humor of it, but there are a lot of people out there who are not seeing the humor, Dimitri. There was a petition on change.org, 37,000 people as of Sunday night calling for him to resign. Now, the easiest thing in the world is to put your name to an online petition, but that 37,000 people did, 37,000 people did the easiest thing. There are, there's a rumor that as many as two more people could be defecting soon.

This is nothing new, and yet it still feels, it wounds people when they hear it, Dimitri, that somebody's going to cross the floor. So if I can just add to the humor for a second. Yes, please. Let me, Ben. There's another story that hasn't been made public yet, but Michael Ma doesn't even do the Dutch thing. From what I gather, his wife paid for her ticket with her own credit card. And Michael Ma in the meantime perfected the art of equality by remaining firmly, heroically at zero. So not only did he not buy his ticket, but his wife bought her ticket on her own. So back to the floor crossing, back to the serious part of what you're talking about. Number one, floor crossing, whether we like it or not, has been happening in Confederation since the 1800s. Now, the way that Michael Maude did this, to go to two Christmas parties, enjoy two Christmas dinners, he burnt up the dance floor, and then the next

day went to another Christmas party. I don't know if the Liberals charged him for a ticket or if they comped for him, but it does also beg the question that voters voted in this case for a conservative MP. But again, let's not forget names like Leona Alislev, names like David Emerson and Wajid Khan, where in their cases, voters elected a liberal MP and they crossed the floor to the conservatives in 2006, 2007, and when Andrew Shear was leader, welcomed Leona Alislev and even made her his deputy leader. So there is frustration on the ground. You know, in a utopian society, you would have these people leave their caucus because they no longer want to be a part of the conservative family and sit as independence.

People will sign petitions. It happens every single time. Michael Ma will stay as a liberal. The big challenge for Pierre Palliev, and I will say that James Moore said it best. The biggest challenge for the Conservative Party is the ability to not just be a movement. But also, you know, James' argument, and he's a respected conservative, he's a respected form. he's a respected former cabinet minister the conservative party is stuck between being a movement

and being a governing party and tiny activists yeah we got to stick a pin now I'll let you finish when we come back and then I'll pass the mic over don't go anywhere more with the panel when we come back Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show and welcome back to Max and Dmitri as we close out this show on Monday.

Dmitri was going to give you just a quick few seconds to close up your thoughts on floor crossing. Yeah, the only point I was going to make on floor crossing is right now if Mark Carney manages to get one more conservative, he gets a majority. And that means that he gets the control committees, whereas now it's the opposition of control committees. And the next election will be in four years, not in 12. or 18 months, and it will have an impact on Mr. Poliev's leadership. Interesting. Max, what do you think? Because like I said, it's part for the course. It's been happening forever. Floor crossing has been happening forever. It does feel to me that if anything is going to change, we already know

that the NDP have it in their rules that they won't accept a floor crosser. Maybe it's incumbent upon a party like the Conservatives. If they want to see this change affected across the political spectrum, for them to, I don't know, put something in their rules that would suggest something similar to the NDP. I mean, you know, the NDP not having those rules is a bit like me saying I have a policy that I won't date Taylor Swift. Okay, you win the line. It's never going to be an issue.

No, no, that's the line of the day, my friend. Probably a year. Nobody's going to beat this. Yeah. Thank you. But look, look, if, you know, if conservatives want to be mad, they should be mad at their leader, Pierre Pali, because you can say. your watch to the fact that another floor crossing is going to happen. I bet, you know, one or two,

maybe more, because of his reaction to the first one. His reaction to Chris Dantramont crossing, his reaction to Matt Jenneroo crossing, set the table for Michael Ma crossing. And he did it again on the weekend. Rosemary Barton asked him, you know, do you take some responsibility for this? And he said, no, actually, I blame Mark Carney for this. And I mean, yeah, obviously, he's the one that they're attracted to that they want to work with. But his reaction to the floor crossing is fueling this sort of this continued drip, drip of people leaving his caucus. So, hey, look, maybe he'll win the leadership vote in January. It's not going to matter because his caucus members are taking him out one by one.

Well, you know, before we move on to something else, let's have a like a thought exercise. You know, there's this constant drumming that, you know, this version of the conservative party is so right. that nobody is going to ever want to vote for them or form government. And yet they are not so right wing that members of that party can find a home inside the liberal party within six months of an election. So there's a disconnect there. However, part of that may be true. One might want to ask the people who are forming policy in that party might want to ask

themselves, maybe our problem is that our policies and the vision of Canada that we have is too closely aligned to what the liberals want and maybe looking for a truer conservative vision for the future in the next election may guarantee us some distance between us and the liberals. You're shaking your head, Dimitri. I am shaking my head and I'm shaking it vigorously. I can see.

So this Conservative Party of Canada, the Conservative Party of Canada, it's not a question of being too right-wing. I would argue that the platform, the vision that the Conservative Party of Canada offered in the last election campaign was one of the best well-thought-out platforms this party has offered in years. What's the issue? The issue is not the message.

Let's be blunt. The issue is the messenger. And when too many activists see it as a conservative movement with a parliamentary arm whose job is to fight enemies with online battles, embarrassed liberals, own David Cochran on CBC, you know, it may feel satisfying, but it doesn't win government. Most conservative voters and most Canadians are looking for a real alternative. They want a political and parliamentary side of the conservative movement to dominate.

They want a party that speaks with a pan-Canadian tone, shows governing temperament, understands the current moment, including the threat posed by Donald Trump, and leaves zero ambiguity about the desire to govern. And James Moore, who is a former cabinet minister, said exactly this, and his warning is clear. Pierre Paulyev must pivot from pleasing the movement, the echo chamber, to convincing the country, or he will never become prime minister. You know, when liberals offer conservative policies, they are a pale imitation of conservative principles. It's like when conservatives try to move closer to liberalism, it is a pale imitation. When Canadians want a conservative government that offers a viable alternative, they will vote for the real deal.

They won't vote for the pale limitation of liberals who copy and paste conservative policies. Max, final word on this one to you. Yeah, just to Dimitri's point, if you look at the polling data, you know, support for the liberal party, support for the conservative party is pretty even right now, but support for the two leaders are wildly divergent. So the issue is not the conservative brand. the issue is not the conservative policy book the issue is the conservative leader um and and when they replace him and they will they they need to take care not to go further in that direction uh further towards sort of online petulance and battle battle fighting and you know trying to find their own jd vance they they need the opposite of a jd vance uh dare i say they need a stephen harper and and i don't know

if there's one of those out there right now uh here but that but that is the way forward it's not uh with more crap posting on social media. All right, well, let's focus in our last few minutes on this story. The premier of Saskatchewan is continuing his attacks on federal equalization payments as a, so Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia are getting nothing in 2026. Quebec is getting almost $14 billion. Let's go to the man in Quebec. Well, he's technically in Toronto right now, but his heart's always in Quebec.

Dimitri, is this, talk to me about, is this helpful? Is this, what do you make, what do you make of this? This to me seems like a, I mean, it's a constant, it's a constant drum, but it's a reality that we have to deal with. It is and have not provinces, like in the case of Quebec, are recipients of equalization and half provinces. Half provinces means that their economy is going really, really well. Half provinces means that their contribution to Confederation is great.

And have not provinces shouldn't be excited about receiving equalization. So it is a continuous drumstick that provinces that contribute to the equalization formula always have an issue with it. The reality with equalization is only one level of government can make any amendments to the formula, and it's the federal government. So I'd like to hear the premiers ask Prime Minister Carney to amend the formula if that's what they want. And Max, you know, it just seems to me as we are, we all were rolling in the same direction. And Team Canada was this wonderful idea, just a few short months. months ago. And it seems like we are exactly back to where we were fighting the issues of the past, fighting over, you know, whether there would be a pipeline towards the West, whether there

would be a, whether there'd be anything through the Quebec territory. And it seems like we're exactly where we were before. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Yeah. I mean, look, you know, Dimitri is right that if we're going to change equalization, and I think there, there is a good sort of technocratic case for it. It has to be done by the federal government Stephen Harper was in power for almost a decade he didn't do that uh Jason Kenny your previous guest you know he was he was part of that government he didn't do that he then went on to to whip up anger about equalization when he was a premier of that province so um you know it is a tried and tested political strategy for prairie premiers um the fact remains that

even if we got rid of the equalization program there wouldn't be a dime that went more into their coffers than than did before you know it's not like alberta and Saskatchewan would benefit um but it's a way to get get people angry and and maybe we need to sort of think about the downsides of constantly keeping people angry about our politics and try to be a little more constructive uh at this holiday season just if i can yeah we actually did change the equalization formula and it happened in 2007 we actually introduced a new equalization framework um that basically shifted to a 10 province standard it limited the treatment of natural resource revenues. It introduced a cap so that equalization payments could not cause recipient provinces

to end up with a higher fiscal capacity than non-recipient provinces. And when Prime Minister Harper changed the equalization formula, the actual intent was to make the program more predictable, rules-based, and less politically discretionary. It is also part of the solving the fiscal imbalance that existed between Ottawa and Quebec. Gentlemen, we're going to have to leave. And you, Phenal and Labrador. We got to, we got to. We got a, we got to leave it there but thank you so much always appreciate kicking off the week with you guys have a great week we'll talk to you soon okay okay have a great monday and i want to point something out so many times i have been asked by people why don't you have um why don't you have federal liberal ministers

on your show we try we reach out we're going to let you know every single day how many days have gone by that we've reached out that no one has tuned in or joined us thank you so much enjoy the rest of your monday we'll see you back here on tuesday I want to stamp myself one of the best players to ever play this game. Wednesdays on Global. That's how you're doing. This is their moment. The lying.

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