The Ben Mulroney Show - Judge says no jail time for B.C. man with ‘relatively modest’ child porn collection

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

Guests and Topics: -No jail time for B.C. man with ‘relatively modest’ child porn collection, judge rules with Guest: Joseph Neuberger, Neuberger And Partners Criminal Lawyers, host of the podcast “Not On Record” -Taking a historical look at Judy LaMarsh with Guest: Craig Baird, Host of Canadian History Ehx If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. This next story angered me, made my blood boil, and just gave me a bad, a bad queasy feeling in my stomach. Because if there's, if there's one, if there's one crime that most Canadians just cannot abide, it's child pornography and the abuse of children. And there was a court case in British Columbia where a man was caught with a treasure trove of photographs on his Tumblr account of child pornography. And he received no jail time because in the ruling, the judge said that, well, there's a lot of things. And by the way, my next guest will correct me if I'm not getting this right. But because the the amount of child porn constituted a relatively modest amount, he got no jail time. And so to talk about this, and hopefully

walk me back from this blood boiling position I find myself in, we're joined by Joseph Neuberger of Neuberger and Partners Criminal Lawyers, as well as the host of the podcast, Not On Record. Joseph, thank you for joining us. Ben, I want to help you with your blood pressure this morning. Joseph Neuberger of Neuberger and Partners Criminal Lawyers, as well as the host of the podcast, Not On Record. Joseph, thank you for joining us. Ben, I want to help you with your blood pressure this morning. Okay. So tell me why. Give me more information.

Give me more information than I just provide the audience. Okay. So in a child pornography case, there will be a very big range of the number of images or videos, as well as what the content actually represents. Now, let's all be clear, child pornography is bad. But there are varying degrees. Some are more modest in its numbers. So we can talk about, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 type of images as opposed to those who amass thousand have them saved in categories. So the higher you get in numbers, the more organized the individual is if they are sharing

and distributing those will typically attract a much higher sentence where somebody will be going into custody actual jail at that point. But at some point when you let me I want to talk about a conditional sentence because it's not something that should be poo pooed. They're actually quite strenuous. Okay. Yeah. But before we do, I guess what I'm finding distasteful is like one instance of child pornography in my opinion is one too many. And that photograph represents on the other side of the camera, an act of child abuse. And so to learn that there are levels

that if a guy does the count right, if he stays below a certain threshold, then he is going to be treated with lesser importance by the courts. then he is going to be treated with lesser importance by the courts. I didn't think that was a thing. I thought one was too many and this is a scourge and we send a message. And I mean, I thought that's,

I didn't know that this was the state of play. Well, we have this across the board with criminal cases. We always have a gradation of seriousness with all offenses. So it's not something which is just particular to child pornography. And in this case, it's possession as opposed to necessarily making that's a different situation. And there are other factors to take into consideration,

which would be an accused particular background. They may have no criminal record, they may be a youthful offender, or they may be, you know, much more mature without any prior issues. They would have gone through forensic and psychological assessment to show that they have maybe a paraphilia for children, but there's no hands-on offence, this risk level is low. They would be in a high management sex offender program, which is based in the community

as opposed to what you get in jail. If they're employed, is this something where you really wanna make sure they become unemployed? And therefore, what do you do with them once they step out of jail nine months or a year later? The criminal justice system to a certain extent is about risk management

as opposed to just simply incapacitation. Okay, well, let's talk about that risk. And you would know better than me, but my assumption, based on what I've read in the past, is that there's typically a high risk of recidivism when it comes to child pornography and child abuse. I mean, it's sort of a lot of people are said to be clean. People are born that way. And, you know, some people are born that way. Some people are born with a different body chemistry or brain chemistry that leads to positive outcomes, and then there are those that lead to negative outcomes, this being one of them. So explain this system of risk management when you're dealing with somebody who is in a category that is viewed as a high risk to repeat.

Okay. So let me make a distinction. So I understand that child pornography in itself fosters child abuse, but if you have an individual hypothetically who's charged with simply possession and they go through an assessment, the possession does not necessarily directly correlate in the future with a hands-on offense.

So it may not result in any type of a sexual assault or interference based on that assessment. And that's a common factor. So you will have lots of individuals who are drawn to pornography but never ever go on to hands-on offenses. That doesn't mean this isn't serious, but that's the stats and that's sort of the thinking. Also, an individual can have an interest in this type of sexual proclivity, so I call them paraphilias under the actual DSM-5, but they may have also other interests, so somebody might have a non-exclusive interest. So from a management standpoint,

we have to step back. We can't throw everybody in jail for long periods of time. And then when they come out of jail, just expect that everything's going to be okay. It's not going to happen. We may make somebody even worse. We don't want to do that. A conditional sentence is a house arrest. They're allowed to go to employment, you know, various things. They're under strict monitoring. Are they on a registry? Yeah, they go on the sex offender registry. They have to give up their DNA. There's auxiliary orders, including don't go to schools, parks, anywhere where you would

find children. There's restrictions as to how they use their computer. These are very onerous and there's no, there's no parole from a conditional sense. So two years less a day, they're at home and house arrest and they're monitored. And the good thing is a lot of these are then embedded in continuing sex offender treatment program without interruption. And the community based programs are very successful. And I know in the United States in certain jurisdictions, if somebody is on the registry,

they literally have to go door to door in their neighborhood to let people know you're living next door to me or in my vicinity. Does that happen here? Thank God, no. Yeah, it means that always, that feels like it's a shameful thing to do, but how does the community become aware that they have a person who's on the registry

in their midst? Police, you will see from time to time when somebody's released into the community, will give a notification when justified, who's an individual who poses an extreme high risk to children or other individuals. They will give that notification. Based upon particular cases, if they are not posing that high risk, they will not make an announcement to the public but

they will be monitored so this person will have a conditional sent supervisor then a probation officer and there will be regular checks on this individual including the ankle monitor and they will be monitored also by a forensic expert who's heading the program they have to sign releases so updates of the program goes to the supervisor slash probation officer. There's a lot of intent supervision. Is someone keeping an eye on his computer activity, his online activity? Yeah, you can. Because if he trends into these social sites where they're not supposed to be, our police services across Canada are premier in the world at cyber detection of sexual exploitation of children.

So he will come up somewhere. And there can be regular searches also embedded within the terms of his electronics. And by and large, these individuals do abide by these conditions. Well, I want to say, Joseph Neuberger, I came into this with a particular thought in my head. You have absolutely made me understand that the sky is not falling. This is not an example of our criminal justice system falling to pieces.

So I want to thank you very much. And look, I really do hope that this guy, the goal is to keep the public safe and to ensure that the person doesn't offend again and yes, to reintegrate them in a positive way. So I do hope that all those three things are achieved this way. So thank you very much, my friend. You have done me a kindness and a service today.

Always a pleasure, Ben. Thanks for having me on. Thank you. Thank you. Welcome back to the Ben Mo Review Show and Canada Class is in session. Settle down because Professor Craig Baird is here to drop some Canadian history knowledge on your brains. And Craig, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. Now I'm laughing because whatever our listeners and viewers are expecting, they were not expecting that in 1855, there was a brawl between clowns and firefighters. And this is a piece of our history that everybody needs to know. Yeah, it is definitely kind of a unique part of our history. It's the Toronto Firemen and Tom Brothel riot. Oh, hold on, there's a brothel involved in this.

Oh yeah, yeah, there's a whole bunch of layers to this story. Let's start at the beginning and peel Oh, hold on. There's a brothel involved in this. Oh yeah, yeah. There's a whole bunch of layers to this story. Let's start at the beginning and peel away my friend. In 1855 Toronto, you know, was a very bustling city and it was on July 12th of that year that the Star Troop Menagerie and Circus arrived for a series of shows. So they gave a sold out performance and the clowns in the circus decided that they wanted to celebrate. So, they got drinking, got a bit drunk and decided to make their way to a brothel that

was located at King and Jarvis. This also happened to be a favorite brothel for the local firefighters. So, when the clowns arrived at the brothel, they saw a line of the firemen from the Hook and Ladder firefighting company. Now, it's not known exactly how the fight started. One source says that a clown cut in line and was punched. Another says that a clown knocked the hat off of a firefighter, but either way a fistfight broke out and the clowns actually beat up the firefighters and kicked them out of the brothel and then kind of just took over the whole establishment. I don't

know if they were still in clown makeup at the time though, but they quite possibly might have been. Okay, I've got so many questions for you because it occurred to me that in 1855, clowns may very well have been the equivalent of like celebrities. Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, they were the major entertainers of the day and definitely would have had a good chunk of money to be able to throw around at the brothel, for example.

Yeah. Okay. So I mean, I drive by King and Jarvis every day. I'm trying to picture of it. And when you say clown makeup, do you have any sense of what clowns looked like in 1855? I know what a clown looks like today. I know a Bozo the Clown is in my mind, the archetype of a clown, but that's a modern day clown. Do you know what they look like back in the day? Well, back in the day, they wouldn't have had like what clowns do today. I don't think they had as much like white face paint and things like that, but they probably would have had some makeup on that, you know, I imagine was probably still on some faces when they decided to start fighting the firemen at the brothel. And, and so do we know how many people partook in this brawl?

Unfortunately, we don't, but it was probably at least a couple dozen people, you know, probably maybe 12 on each side, maybe that got involved in this brawl. And did the cops get involved? Or did they or did the cops show up and just witness something that they just said, we got to let this play out because we're never going to see this again in the history of our lives. Well what happened was after they kicked the firefighters out the firefighters went to their friends who were the police force because both had many members that were part of the orange order which was a major fraternal organization at the time. So the day after the brothel riot, the clowns were preparing

for another show. And that's when a large group of police and firefighters arrived at the circus. And the firefighters went nuts. They started to burn the tents, they smashed things with axes. They threw rocks at the performers and the police just kind of stood there and watched. The only thing they stopped was the firefighters attempting to light the animal cages on fire. And then the firefighters just beat up the clowns and the clowns fled the city and pretty much never came back. But yeah, it was definitely a very strange and unique story from our history. I don't think there's a heritage minute about this one. I thought the first part was crazy, but the firemen coming in and lighting fires

and the cops just standing by. This is my God. And yeah, and then the cops, I guess they were whipped up into such a frenzy that they were willing to burn the animals to death. That's a bridge too far. That takes the comedy out of it and that just goes into dark tragedy.

And so they drove the clowns out of town. That is amazing. Yeah. Oh my God. And so that, my guess is that the circus itself didn't come back to Toronto for a very long time. Most likely. I don't imagine any of those clowns ever came back to the city. All right. Well, let's move on to the story that you feature this week on Canadian History X. And it's the story, yet again, of somebody most Canadians probably don't know.

I would fully admit I didn't know the story either. Tell us a little bit about Judy LaMarche. Judy LaMarche was a fascinating individual, probably one of my favorite historical figures from the 20th century in Canada. So during the Second World War, she actually learned Japanese and worked for Canadian intelligence as a translator. But then after becoming a lawyer, she was elected to parliament in 1916. She would serve for the next eight years. She became Canada's second female cabinet minister after Ellen Fairclough. She was Canada's second female cabinet minister after Ellen Fairclough, she was Canada's minister of national health and welfare and she actually laid the groundwork for what would become Medicare as well as the Canada Pension Plan. Then she was the secretary of state

and she oversaw Canada's centennial celebrations in 1967 and pretty much was everywhere that year across the country. She also started the process that would lead to the creation of the CRTC. And then she left politics and went back to working as a lawyer. And in 1974, she represented the Brunswick four in a landmark LGBTQ case. And she did that completely free of charge. She also hosted a show on CBC radio and she wrote an acclaimed memoir, uh, that was called memoirs of a bird in a gilded cage which I've read and is a fantastic book yeah and then in 1979 unfortunately she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and she received the

Order of Canada in her hospital bed from the governor-general and she died on October 27th 1980 well it's important to note that you that you cannot posthumously be awarded the Order of Canada. So, the fact that they got it to her prior to her passing is quite significant. I've got so many questions for you. But before we do, let's take a listen to this week's episode of Canadian History X featuring Judy LaMarche. It wasn't just Medicare that Judy LaMarche focused on in her portfolio. On June 17th, 1963, she rose in the House of Commons and stated, There is scientific evidence that cigarette smoking is a contributory cause of lung cancer

and that it may also be associated with chronic bronchitis and coronary heart disease. While this may seem like a minor thing for a politician to say now and far from controversial, it was groundbreaking for the time. She became the first major Western world government official to oppose tobacco smoking publicly. Wanting to practice what she preached, Lamarche went cold turkey on her two-decade, three-pack-a-day smoking habit the day she spoke those words in the House of Commons. She said, If I give up a habit of 20 years and one that is hard to break, I think it will indicate that I think it is serious. I didn't do this as an exercise in willpower. Overall, the response to her decision to quit and speak out about the dangers of smoking

was well received. NDP leader Tommy Douglas jokingly asked if she would take up pipe smoking instead, while Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson congratulated her decision to quit smoking. Hundreds of letters came into her office commending her. One letter writer sent a basket of apples for her to munch on when cravings became too bad. Of course, not all the letters were pleasant. One came from a tobacco grower who was unhappy with her comments. And while many in the House of Commons supported her, there were other MPs who made a habit

of sending her packs of cigarettes and asking her to come join them for a smoke in an attempt to sabotage her efforts. But as far as we know, she was steadfast in her resolve. My goodness, this woman seemed to be central and influential on so many key files from the Second World War, right up until her death. Why don't we know who she is? Well, I think it's just, again, a case of we don't look at a lot of the people in our history, apart from the big names, you know, prime ministers and hockey stars and things like that. She does have a ship name for her with the Canadian Coast Guard, but even that, you know, prime ministers and hockey stars and things like that. She does have a ship named for her with the Canadian Coast Guard, but even that,

you know, a lot of people don't know, but yeah, she was central to everything. Medicare, Canada pension plan, CRTC, even the, uh, the Royal commission on the status of women was started by her. So she had a huge impact on our histories through the 1960s, which reverberates, you know, well after that. And yeah, unfortunately, apart from in places of Ontario, especially Niagara Falls, she's not that well known. The name is Judy LaMarche and you can learn more about her on Craig Baird's Canadian History

X. Real quick, how can people find the show? You can listen to Canadian History X and that's EHX on all podcast platforms. And you can also listen to it on the Chorus Radio Network every weekend. Just check your local listings. I am shaking my head at how much I don't know them. So thankful that you come here every week and give me just a little more information about the people who built this country. Thank you very much, Craig Baird. Thanks for having me. To celebrate the days of our lives, 60th anniversary, W Network and Stack TV invite you to enter for a chance to win the ultimate fan experience.

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