The Ben Mulroney Show - Monday Political Panel -- a wild week in Ottawa marches on!

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

Guest: Max Fawcett, Lead Columnist for Canada's National Observer -  Guest: Dimitri  Soudas, Former Director of Communications for Prime Minister Stephen Harper If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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AI for tax experts. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thank you so much for joining us. All right, we are going to end this show in style with two of my favorite guests because it's the Monday edition of this week in politics. Please welcome the lead columnist for Canada's National Observer, Max Fawcett, and the former director of communications for Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Demetra Soutis, Max, Dimitri, happy Monday to the both of you.

Good morning, Dave. All right, let's keep going with the drama. Some will say a distraction from the budget. others call it internal palace intrigue of uh in the conservative party of the chris d'ontrameau defection um and uh he he is sort of i i think continued with his uh with doubling down on his reasons for leaving saying the conservatives were more like a frat house than a political party and um max uh you know you i'm not a member of the party uh i haven't been a member of a party since 1993, as a matter of fact, if anyone cares.

But you and I are certainly not members of the party. So before we go to somebody who is, what is your assessment of something like that? Yeah, I don't think it's a good look for the Conservative Party of Canada right now. I think their reaction kind of proved Chris Dantramont's point. And I just want to do a little compare and contrast here. So this is what Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said when Leona Alslev crossed the floor in 20, I believe 2018, he said, I wish her the best in her new choices. You know, that's something

that happens from time to time in politics. It's not great, but it's also not the end all and be all. And here is the official statement from the Conservative Party of Canada. Chris Dantramont, who established himself as a liar after willfully deceiving his voters, friends, and colleagues because he was upset. He didn't get his coveted deputy speaker role. He is now spinning more lies after crossing the floor. He will fit in perfectly in the liberal caucus. The contrast there is just so striking it. You know, there are two approaches to politics here. And Polyev's party has clearly chosen the latter one. And I think we are seeing how it is going to work out for him. If there are other people who are considering crossing the floor, I don't

think this is going to discourage them. I think it will have the opposite effect. Demetri Soutis, is it as binary as Max makes it, that it's either you choose the magnanimous. We wish them well in their new choices or, you know, we burn them out. We burn them on the way on the way out. How do you see it? So, Ben, you talked about, you characterize things as a binary option between drama and distraction. I would say it's both. Drama created by the conservative leadership team and distraction created as well by the conservative leadership team. They've created drama where somebody wanted to change caucus. In this case, it was Mr. Dantremont, and quite possible.

and realistically, Mr. Jenneru, who ultimately chose to just walk away and say, I don't need any of this. I will go back to one of the most famous floor crossings in the last 20 years, Belinda Strannick, who ran for the leadership of the new Conservative Party of Canada and chose to cross the floor to the liberals. I remember very clearly back then, opposition leader Stephen Harper basically asking me to convey. one very simple message back to her and to her team. Don't let the door hit you on the way out and we will see you on the hustings, i.e. we will run a hard campaign against you and the voters will ultimately choose. We are now into almost one full week of the government tabling a budget that apparently was going to bring about generational change, was going to be inspirational.

they used every synonym in the book. The budget comes nowhere near being any of that, yet we're not talking about it as the number one topic on our list. And Demetia, that's something I want to bring up. So the consensus is that this is a self-inflicted wound that perhaps had cooler heads prevailed and had people had perhaps a longer view of this. They would have taken a different tactic.

They would have put water in their wine and they would have acted a little more diplomatically towards their outgoing. colleagues. So if we can agree that that is something that makes sense, can we also not agree that, you know, there's a lot of members of the press who have focused on this internal drama when they had this perfectly valid, you know, federal budget first one we hadn't seen in 18 years. And they would rather focus on the conservatives as opposed to the budget. It feels to me like this is also something that has been amplified by a lot of members of the

press that chose to focus on the drama as opposed to the substance of the budget. Max? Well, can I say anything very quickly? Oh, yeah, please. Go ahead. Go for it. Why aren't we talking about the budget? Yeah, I mean, you're right. We're not talking about it right now. Good point. Yeah, good point. I mean, look, journalists are pretty predictable on this sort of stuff if it bleeds it leads right yeah and so on the one hand you have a complex policy document that i agree with dmitri you know it didn't live up to the the the billing that it was given by by the finance minister by the prime minister but that takes a distant sort of second chair to this car crash that is unfolding in front of parliament uh you know with with the leader of the opposition

and and you know one member crossing another member might cross then he doesn't like how can you turn away from that and you know the way to deal with that if you were the official opposition is to say look you know we wish mr don'traman the best what we want to talk about is the budget yeah and they didn't do that no you're right yeah they amplified the focus i will add yeah go ahead and i and i and i and i will add two things um not that the auto or press gallery is a beast but the expression i often used to use is don't feed the beast yeah um and what they did in this case is they kept feeding the beast the beast you know scripting questions for caucus members forcing them to get up in the house of commons and ask questions so they can be on the record as opposing the liberals which

would prevent them from ever crossing the floor and on the budget ben its day will come yeah because right now it's just a book it's pages uh with black ink this government will actually have to implement this budget and the economy will have to respond to whatever this budget is supposed to do um rule number one Don't feed the damn beast. I think my dad just say, don't give them anything to punch at. And all they did was give things to punch at in this case.

But the bigger picture in all of this. Forget about the inside bubble, Ottawa, rumor mill. What message is this sending to Canadians? Does this look to you like His Majesty's loyal opposition as a government in waiting or something that is in total chaos and disarray? Okay, so let's stick with this. the end of this segment. We don't have a lot of time left. But if you, Max, had just a couple of words of advice, free advice that you would give the Tories on how to turn the page over the next

week. What would that advice be? The first piece would be replaced your leader with someone who conduct himself like a grown up. Short of cutting the head off the beast. In order for them to get past this is what I'm saying in the next week. What would you say? Find new voices in your caucus who can bring the tone that you want. or you should want to the public. So, you know, less Andrew Shear and more, you know, serious, sober-minded people who can actually just keep the waters a little calmer. Is that a good piece of advice to Dimitri?

Honestly, there's a lot of voices within the conservative caucus that don't get a lot of amplification. They don't get a lot of time on the national spotlight. Maybe now is the time to find those new, perhaps diamonds in the rough or young up-and-comers and accelerate their path towards the front bench. it's not always only exclusively young up and comers it's also some seasoned veterans like for example larry brock it's somebody like adam chambers who was actually on cbc and gave a very reasonable answer when he was asked about d'anttremont leaving caucus if i had to offer uh as a total has been

two pieces of advice is number one um stop acting like caricatures and number two get out of the echo chamber Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that anybody outside of Ottawa cared about this until it became a thing that we then all had to pay attention to. So those are good, good pieces of a device. Guys, don't go anywhere. When we come back, there are a couple of things I want to talk about. We've got Mark Carney saying a pipeline is going to happen. We heard that the next tranche of those projects of national importance are going to be announced before or during. Grey Cup weekend, which is imminent so we could be seeing those very soon. Meanwhile, Chris David Eby and the BC Indigenous leaders are saying a pipeline will never happen. So the question I have is what happens when an immovable object hits an unstoppable force? That is what we're going to talk about next. Don't go anywhere.

The Ben Mulroney show on the Chorus Radio Network marches on. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney. show and welcome back to Max Fawcett and Dmitri Sudas. They are, of course, the all-stars that populate this week in politics, the Monday edition. Gentlemen, thanks so much for sticking around. We saw that Mark Carney gave a fireside chat just a few days ago, where he, first, first he, I don't know what he was doing, but when asked about a pipeline, he poohed and practically screamed, boring. I'm not quite sure what that was all about, but he did say that a pipeline was coming. Meanwhile, on the west coast of this country, not only do you have the premier

of BC, but certain BC indigenous leaders saying that won't happen ever. And I got to ask you, who wins in this standoff? Demetri, we'll go with you first. Well, it depends on the approach that he wants to take, but I'm starting to worry that Mark Carney will sometimes tell you what you want to hear. So it means saying one thing to Daniel Smith and possibly another thing to an audience as he did in Toronto. There aren't a hundred pipeline scenarios. There's only three of them. So it's the revival of Northern Gateway,

which opens access to the Pacific. There's Energy East, but that is a very costly project. That would go from Alberta all the way to the East Coast, so that's more than $30 billion. And Keystone Excel. Keystone Excel would basically deepen U.S. dependence, and is that what we're trying to do right now?

It's going to be a very tough nut to crack for this prime minister because ultimately, ultimately, and we can't forget that the anti-pipeline law, C-69, is still in effect. Yeah, yeah. But Max, you know, I've heard that this government is trying to get, correct me if I'm wrong, I may be wrong on this, but it's trying to get governments like the government of Alberta to commit to all sorts of sort of environmental

commitments before saying yes to a pipeline as a way to mitigate any of the, not just environmental issues that would come with increased oil production, but mitigate the political fallout that he and his government may have to address. Is that a fair statement? It is. I've argued in a recent column that they need to do a better job of outlining what their asks are. People in the climate community know that they are after a strengthening of the industrial carbon pricing system and a green light for the carbon capture and storage projects. But the prime minister has not laid his end of this so-called grand bargain out. And I think it's well past time for him to do that because, you know, Daniel Smith has been

kind of allowed to drive the narrative here. And we're at the point now where if she doesn't get everything she wants, she may, you know, claim that, you know, she's been spurned. It's the federal government doing what they always do and we just don't know what the substance of their negotiations actually are. So be nice to get everything out on the table. I look forward to seeing what the details are here. You know, the unspoken part here is that there really isn't a strong business case for a new West Coast pipeline for oil. You know, there's a million barrels of additional capacity in the system. And new oil sands projects are expensive. And, you know, global oil prices are low and probably going lower in the near term.

So I think that is what Carney is ultimately betting on is that the private sector just isn't going to step up to the plate, not because of the feds, but because there is no business case. But we'll see how that plays out. Dimitri, you hear that. There's no business and no one's stepping up yet. How much in your estimation is that sort of absence of buy-in from the private sector to do with, as we just talked about all the laws that were drafted and put forth by Justin Trudeau and his government to make that business case hard to make.

Right. And the flip side of the coin to what Max just said, and having spoken to different sectors and different companies in the oil and gas sector, what they look for is predictability. They want to know that for the next 30 years, there's not going to be a yo-yo playing of what regulations rules, cap, emissions, caps, for example. example, and Bill C-69, so long as it is in effect, the sector is not going to dish out tens of billions of dollars. And the other argument I'll say to, you know, Max, who says oil prices are dipping. Yes, that's accurate, but it is a commodity. They go up and they go down.

But at the same time, if we look at oil and gas exploration in other parts of the world, they are building pipelines. They are increasing production. The reason it's not happening here in Canada is because it's not a dependable market. All right. In our last, I mean, Max, last word on this to you.

American production is starting to roll over in the United States, even with Trump, even with all of their drill baby drill regulations, because at the end of the day, it is a commodity, it is about prices, it is a business. And I think our conversation in Canada focuses far too much on the political side

and not nearly enough on the long-term supply and demand equation. I, if there are people out there who are confident that there is no business case, then there would be no business case if the tanker ban was reversed, for example. And honestly, if those people truly believe that there is no business case now and forever for another pipeline, then get rid of those regulations and let's see what happens. But something tells me that part of the argument of there's no business case for this, so don't look over here, has to do with exactly those things that we just talked about.

Just an idea on my part. All right, in the last few minutes that we have, I'd love to talk. about another immovable object facing an unstoppable force, and that's Zoran Mamdani versus the president of the United States, with New York City being ground zero. I mean, these are two people who are high, for completely different reasons, highly effective communicators. They are both very skilled at social media, and they both want completely different things, and they're both willing to fight it out in the streets of New York City and those five boroughs. Let's start with with you, Dimitri.

How do you think this is going to play out? Who do you think is going to get the short end of the stick? I have a feeling that this is going to be one of those battles that we never imagine can happen because they're both, quite frankly, on the extremes. I can picture Donald Trump because in the United States, unlike Canada, where funding goes from the federal government to provinces and then to municipalities, cities actually rely heavily on federal funding. New York receives almost $10 billion from Washington out of a budget of $115 billion.

So I can picture Donald Trump basically saying your funding is cut. And the question here is who has legal authority over what? ICE, for example, the deportations that are taking place in United States of illegal immigrants. What authority does the mayor have? I just hope that, and I don't know if that still exists in the United States or in certain parts, for the United States, that common sense will prevail. We'll have to see. I mean, as you're right, they both occupy very particular spots on the political spectrum.

And there's not a whole lot that these guys would find common cause on at all. Max, seriously, have you ever seen two politicians? You look at Doug Ford and, say, Olivia Chow, certainly not president, but he's the premier. They did not get along. He said she would be a disaster. and they have found ways to work together. There's a genuine affection and friendship there. They do not agree, but they have found things to work on.

I can't think of a single thing that these two would break bread over and say, okay, on this one issue, we can work together. Yeah, I agree. I mean, our systems are different in the sense that Doug Ford still needs voters and votes in Toronto. Donald Trump doesn't really need votes in New York. I'm sure he would like them, but it is not, you know, New York is not exactly a swing state. And so I think that the dynamic is going to be different. I think the thing to watch for with these two guys, though, is the one thing that they have in common.

And that is that they are both kind of professional wrestling politicians. You know, they can both cut a good promo. They both understand the value of looking strong and using your words in that way. And I think that is what drew a lot of people to Mamdani among progressives, is that, you know, they've been dealing with leaders who keep rolling over in the face. of Trump and, you know, look at the Senate deal that was just struck. Maldani does not roll over. He fights. He cuts

good promos. And I think him and Trump are going to go to at least verbal war because it is what both of them know how to do best. And listen, and I take your point. I don't know that we've, that Mammani has been road tested in real battle scenarios

enough to be able to make that, that he doesn't roll over. We don't know yet. Like he was a, he's done it, he's done it on the campaign trail. He said the things that would suggest that. But he hasn't been in charge of anything where the stakes are actually real yet. Now is going to be the time to see what happens when he comes face to face with his polar opposite and the full force of the administration of the United States. Hey, Max, thank you so much. Dimitri, appreciate it. As always, enjoy the rest of your week

and we'll see it next week. Thank you. All right. Thanks. And thank you so much for joining us. You know what to do. Keep the conversation going. Follow me on Twitter at Ben Mulrini. Follow the show on Instagram at Ben Mulroney's show like and subscribe all that stuff don't forget we're also on YouTube we're going to post the podcast for those of you who miss parts of the show it's Monday enjoy the rest of your day and we'll see you back here tomorrow for a remembrance day you may have heard of the sex cult nexium and the famous you may have heard of the sex cult nexium and the famous actress who went to prison for her involvement, Alison Mack. But she's never told her side of the story,

until now. People assume that I'm like, this pervert. My name is Natalie Robamed, and in my new podcast, I talked to Allison to try to understand how she went from TV actor to cult member. How do you feel about having been involved in bringing sexual trauma at other people? I don't even know how to answer that question. Allison after Nexium from CBC's Uncover is available now on Spotify.