The Ben Mulroney Show - Monday Political panel -- Has Carney ditched feminist foreign policy?

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

Guest: Max Fawcett, Lead Columnist for Canada's National Observer Guest: Dimitri  Soudas, Former Director of Communications for Prime Minister Stephen Harper If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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we speak the same language you do. Business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardin today. We'd love to talk, business. Welcome aboard. Yes, you are. I am not Ben Mulroney. I'm Alex Pearson. Ben Mulroney is away for the week, so I will be sitting in. Nice chance for me to have a different kind of conversation. I look forward to this one because we get different kinds of views. We've got Max Swassett joining us. Lead columnist over at Canada's National Observer, Mr. Dimitri Suda, former director of communications for a guy named Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Gentlemen, how you doing? How are you, Alex?

I am great. Thank you. I'm good. All right, welcome aboard. Let's talk a little bit about Mark Carney's big G20. He's got big meetings happening in Johannesburg. This was not a meeting that Donald Trump attended, but nonetheless he is there trying to get deals, trying to work the room. He did say something about, you know, he was asked about, you know, where is this going as far as the feminist foreign policy? Like, where is your foreign policy being decided and how? And, you know, this was a big thing for Justin Trudeau. He wanted everything to have a feminist lens on it, but the new guy, not the same as the old guy.

Let me kick this one to you, Max, I'll let you start this off. Mark Carney, when asked about his foreign policy as feminists, said, well, I wouldn't describe it as that. And so how do you look at this? Do you say, okay, we're just trying to completely remove the Trudeau stench away? Or does a feminist, you know, foreign policy simply just not make sense to most, other than the last government? I think it reflects different times and a different leader.

You know, the idea of having a feminist foreign policy, I think, was kind of emblematic of the Trudeau government in the sense that, you know, they talked about it a lot. They never actually implemented it. They never actually put it into practice. It was just a thing that they liked to talk about it, you know, press conferences and communicates. And, you know, we live in a world right now

where we are facing a pretty existential threat to certainly our independence. We are facing existential threats to Ukraine, to democracy, to freedom. We have a United States that is making all sorts of very puzzling and worrying decisions. We don't really have time to be going out there and giving people yellow cards on not being feminist enough. I think we can still advocate for our interests. Our interests are things like equality, democracy, freedom, but putting a specific sort of ideological tone on it just doesn't reflect the world that we're in. And Mark Carney is here to get results, much more so, I think, than his predecessor was. Well, let's hope so, Demetrius, because I'm not even sure what a

feminist anything is. I mean, I just literally feel like the last 10 years was almost mocking because nothing was achieved. In fact, I don't even, I don't really understand how you can govern a country with that kind of lens on anything, having said all that, can Corny actually erase the lost decade? Because look, I think people forget, we've lost 10 years of any kind of productivity going into our 11th year, no investment. And a lot of this is due to a lot of the kitschy kind of stupidity over the last 10 years. But does Carney, can you just erase that and walk away? When a new leader comes in, he does have the opportunity to start from scratch. And I'll give you a couple of examples but before that you're quite right Alex what the heck is a feminist

foreign policy um i'll take you back to 2015 um Justin Trudeau election victory speech talked about and i quote him said Canada is back on the foreign stage if by back he meant going to india dressed up in costumes um if by it back he meant literally um in in the span of a few years. Canada, you know, people talk about Canada being a middle power. The challenge with the 10 years of Justin Trudeau is that nobody even bothered to pick up the phone to ask Canada, what do you think? As it relates to a new prime minister, the short answer is yes, a new prime minister can rebuild relations. I'll give you an example. Jean-Pretchen, sourd relations with the Americans, if you remember Alex, when

He said no to go to Iraq. Then Paul Martin took it a step further and tried to use George W. Bush as a punching bag during the 2005-2006 election campaign that we won. When a new prime minister comes in, he does have a brief period of being able to reset where foreign leaders basically say, let's see how this new guy is. Is he going to show up in costumes or is he actually going to be serious? And at the time, Prime Minister Harper was able to deliver a softwood lumber. deal in the first 90 days of the Harper government.

Now, Mark Carney is traveling the world trying to get deals. His challenge right now is he keeps coming back empty-handed. And at some point, the clock will run out on all these big promises. The good negotiator, the smartest guy in the room, he's going to have to deliver because our relationship with the United States has changed dramatically. They are no longer our best friends and closest allies. They might not be, but let me play you some audio. and I'm sure you've heard it already, Max,

it's just this question, and I think it's a pretty standard question. I just, the reaction from Mr. Carney just, you know, it's like he's surprised, you know, but where do things stand with Donald Trump? And it was this answer. Who cares? I mean, it's a detail.

It's a detail. I spoke to him, I'll speak to him again when it matters. I mean, the sort of, as I said, we're very occupied. We are very, very occupied. I mean, look, who cares? workers losing their jobs care, Canadians care, but we were told we were

going to get a deal and businesses. I mean, a lot of people care as to where things stand with Donald Trump. So I thought his flippancy, it was a little much. You say what? Oops, do we have Max? I'm still here. There you go. Sorry, Max. Go ahead.

Yeah, I mean, I think he's negotiating in public. Trump is a guy who responds to attention and he responds to being ignored. and Carney is clearly saying to him, look, buddy, like, we've got better things to do. We've got bigger fish to fry. You get back to us when you figured out maybe some of the Epstein stuff, and you clean that up, and you can talk to trade with us again.

I understand why, you know, people whose jobs are on the line would be concerned if they thought he was actually being flippant about it. But I think we have to extend them the dignity and decency to assume that they understand he's negotiating, and you don't show your cards in public, you know, when you're you're doing a big negotiation like this. So it's a strategy. We'll see how it plays out. You know,

as to Dimitri's point that, you know, he keeps coming back empty-handed. You know, he came back with $70 billion in promised investment from the UAE. So I'm not really sure how you can argue that he's coming back empty-handed. The only place he's come back empty-handed from is the United States because it's much better to come back with the current deal we have with Kuzma still intact than rushing into a bad deal like a bunch of other countries have done.

Korea, Japan, the European Union. So I just don't see that at all. Okay, but you know what? The bottom line is that promise that he made was that the deals would get done. We would have had a deal by now. You know, that's what he promised. And again, 70 billion investment, Dimitri, with the UAE, big announcement,

but what is, I don't even, what is it? Well, keyword that Max used is 70 billion of promised investment. in what sectors, what conditions is this Canada losing more of its sovereignty? I have no issue with not coming to an agreement with the United States. What I have an issue with is the elbows up promise during the election campaign that Mark Carney was the only guy who can actually deliver a deal. Right now, not only are we not negotiating, but even when we were negotiating, We were only negotiating a reduction on tariffs, only on steel, only on aluminum, and energy, which is a 10%.

The Americans have made it clear. They want to wipe assembly of cars out of Ontario. And by the way, the American ambassador who waltzes around Canada playing tough guy, after the Ontario ad, Donald Trump huffed and puffed and talked about an additional 10% tariffs, I'm still waiting. Where are those tariffs? We have found ourselves in a position where our current leadership promised one thing, i.e., the total removal of tariffs, and has not delivered. And that's something that ultimately politicians should be held accountable for, not promising something you can't deliver and getting elected on it. Yeah, and I would go further just to say, and at the provincial level, I mean, we were promised that those interprovincial trade barriers would be gone, and that was a Carney promise as of the long weekend of July. And it's a huge thing.

It's a huge, you know, thing we can do for ourselves to get the economy up and running and stave off some of the damage. But again, here we are and we still remain very much in front of ourselves and in the way. Let me just pause here, guys, for a quick break. And then when we come back, we'll talk about Christa Freeland, who's got wait, so many jobs. If all of us could get so many jobs, my question is, is she being paid for all of them? And can an MP have this many jobs and then work in the private sector? We're talking to Max Fawcett as well as Dimitri Soutis, and we'll get back to the conversation quickly after this on the Ben Mulroney show. It sure is, and you are listening to Alex Pearson's great to be here with you.

We've also gone on board. Max Fawcett, who you can read in Canada's National Observer and Mr. Dmitri Soutis, who once upon a time, help the communications for Mr. Stephen Harper. Guys, let's dig into this because I'm truly trying to figure how on earth this works. But certainly over the weekend, it was going around as we, I guess the prime minister's office makes it official, that Christia Freeland not only will continue as Ukraine envoy while working in the public sector as CEO of Rhodes Trust, you know, she's also going to be an MP. And Dimitri, last time I checked, I mean, this is where you step aside as MP. you call a by-election, because there's just no way you can work in the private sector, still be an MP and a special envoy. Like, I don't know how many salaries she's drawing.

I don't know how she's going to fit all this in, but how do you do any one of these jobs well? Do we have Demitri? Oops. Well, I said, there you are. I apologize. You can't. You're absolutely right.

And most importantly, when you vote remotely, you have to be within Canada. You cannot vote in the House of Commons from the United Kingdom or any other country. Having said that, the challenge in all of this is there is a certain level of disarray within Liberal Party headquarters because they have given no indication as to when Ms. Freeland is going to step down because there's also other MPs who will be stepping down. I'm talking about Bill Blair. I'm talking about former Natural Resources Minister, remind me his name, I have a blank. and a few other former ministers that were not reappointed

that are thinking of leaving. And Mr. Carney wants these by-elections as quickly as possible because the other thing that he will be doing is shuffling his cabinet. But right now, it's just chaos and communications. Obviously, Ms. Freeland will not be moving to the UK and being a member of parliament all at the same time. What I'm told is she will be remaining as the envoy.

Excuse me, it remains to be seen if she's going to be getting paid for that, which all of this basically sends a message that a cabinet shuffle is coming probably before the House returns after the Christmas holidays and then you can expect people like the immigration minister like the public safety minister, the current ones to no longer be in cabinet.

Well, that would be good because the public safety minister is shockingly unequipped to do that job. But there could be like John Wilkinson environment. There are max names of people that might not stick around. Having said that, it's not like I think there's a great worry that if Krisha Freeland gave up her seat and a by-election recalled that all of a sudden the liberals wouldn't win it. It is a very safe seat for them. But again, I think the optics of it aren't great. And I think the normalization of this is also troublesome because then next time, what do you do when you get

this situation? I mean, I think this is sort of the textbook definition of much ado about nothing. And she's clearly going to resign her seat. The job doesn't start until July of 2026. And as Dimitri said, they're going to have a bunch of other people step aside. They're going to have by-elections. Mr. Carney is going to bring in the people from the private sector that he has clearly lined up and has ready to go to staff, to the ministers in some of his key ministries. And Ms. Freeland will do two jobs, which she has done, I'm sure, many times in the past and

we'll have no trouble doing again. But the idea that she's going to continue sitting as an MP is just, so obviously wrong that I don't know why it's being passed around as though that's even a possibility. I'll tell you why quickly, Max, because the Liberal Party has been completely secretive or coy on what exactly is happening. So it needs room for interpretation. Right.

I mean, we've been hearing that, you know, there'd be minister stepping aside, again, for numerous of those. And, you know, that could be a litmus test for Carney to hold on to these seats. but the bottom line is they're going to obviously as a minority government government and power they're not going to want to shake up

the apple barrel too much but it would be the right thing to do that if you're out of Christian Philly's not sticking around you got to go yeah she's going to go that's plain as day and they're going to win the by-election

soon she doesn't have to step aside today because the job doesn't start until next July again like I can apply the same principle to Mad Genarou, by the way. Okay. Meaning, I agree with you, Max.

We should then apply the same principle to Mad Genarou, the conservative MP who basically was armed twisted, not to join liberals. And now he's gone silent. He hasn't gone to vote in the House of Commons. And he said he's going to resign sometime in the spring. I would say that too. So let's be consistent on our expectations.

Yeah, let's have the both step down. I'm like like frankly I mean you don't get elected to office it is a privilege and it's not a right and I just think if you're going to go to be a placeholder then you're not doing what you're you're not serving the people that's that's self-service I just think can't normalize that having settled that we'll see what happens when the dust settles on this because I do think that there are going to be numerous changes and certainly openings coming up maybe in the new year meanwhile the carney deal you know they're chugging along right he's talking to India in South Africa having meetings with other countries. Certainly China is on that list as well. And Demetri's, I would just say, like, this normalization, I get that we need a diversification in trade. Mark Carney keeps saying that, you know, America's our relationship, it's over forever.

I don't agree with that. We'll never replace them as a trading partner. But I do worry about sidling up to some of these countries that we have had some very serious national security risks with. Well, the two main issues have been with India other than obviously the assassination of a Canadian citizen on Canadian soil with China, the two Michaels, Huawei, foreign interference. The only thing I'll say to this is these specific examples are obviously troubling, but our longstanding relationship primarily with China has been one where we should be preoccupied with obviously their human rights record. What does that actually mean? It means that when we meet them, when the prime minister meets them,

and the key question to ask Mark Carney when he goes to Beijing, is that he directly raised the issue of human rights. At the same time, we are looking to reduce our dependency on the American market. You're right, Alex. It will always be our main training partner. But I do believe we can never find ourselves in the position where a gun is held to our head and our neighbor to the south, which used to be a friendly neighbor.

in my view, not so friendly anymore, can ultimately impact tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs, with a stroke of a pen, because that's exactly what Donald Trump has done. Well, on the flip side, Max, I would say, look, Trudeau, he's gone out of office, but he also played political games,

I think, on this issue announcing and declaring the issue with India in parliament, and look, the Chinese interference was never properly dealt with. I think it was made to look like it was dealt with, it was not. And so here we've got this new government, so to speak, and they are going to form this relationships that move ahead. I'm not suggesting we don't do any trade, but I do worry that we're just kind of just sweeping away the actual issues,

and we can't do that. I mean, let's be clear. Prime Minister Carney didn't say that our relationship with the Americans is over. He said that the relationship we had with them is over, and it is over. That close, trusting, best friends, you know, No friction across the 49th parallel. That relationship is over. And I think, you know, getting back to the whole elbows up stuff, you know, if we really want to get our elbows up here, what we would be doing is we would be weaponizing our energy exports to the United States. We would be putting, you know, export taxes on them.

We would be raising the price of energy, which is something that Donald Trump is very clearly sensitive to. Do you know who the biggest impediment to that strategy is? It's conservative. It's conservative premiers like Daniel Smith and Scott Moe. It's conservative leaders like Pierre Pahlia. So if we're going to talk about the elbows up stuff, let's really talk about it. Let's put everything on the table and let's see if people want to get their elbows up. Or they just want to wrap Carney's knuckles for not, you know, using the right word.

I've only got a few seconds left to Dmitz. I've got like 30 seconds. I'd say, you know, the better approach would be opening up more pipelines and saying, you know, everyone can buy our oil. But that's just me. I've got like 20 seconds. Well, I'll be 12.15. Not more pipelines to the south, though. To the east.

To the west, it looks very difficult. because of the government of British Columbia's position and the First Nations. I will, though, insist, Mark Carney, and I am going to wrap those knuckles, in terms of tariffs, that is a federal government-exclusive jurisdiction. Provinces can huff and puff on that.

And Mark Carney, at the very beginning of his leadership, said dollar for dollar in terms of tariffs. I have to go, or the clock will say goodbye to both of you for me. I am out of time. I appreciate yours. Thanks, guys. Cheers. All right, there's Max Fawcett.

Well, I'm told there's a pipeline, so hopefully we'll get more news about it. I'm back in for Ben Mulroney. Thanks so much for listening. Back at it again on the Ben Mulroney show Tuesday. There are streaming services, and then there's Stack TV. What you want, when you want it. Action, comedy, drama, reality, All when you want it.

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