The Ben Mulroney Show - Monday Political Panel / Tony Chapman on chinese EVs

Episode Date: January 19, 2026

Guest: Dimitri  Soudas, Former Director of Communications for Prime Minister Stephen Harper  Guest: Max Fawcett, Lead Columnist for Canada's National Observer -   Guest: Tony Chapman, Host of the award winning podcast Chatter that Matters, Founding Partner of Chatter AI If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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only 699 each. And selected varieties of VH sauce just 244 each, only till January 21st. Shop in store or at metro.com. That's right. This is the Ben Mulroney show. But as always on Monday, we add Dimitri Sudas and Max Fawcett to the mix for our Monday edition of this week in politics. Gentlemen, I hope you had a great weekend. Good afternoon.

Now, today is apparently this blue Monday, right? Apparently it's the most depressing day of the year because bills are due and it's cold. And Max, you're in Calgary. So you've got a little bit of that Chinook going on. But for Dimitri and I, I'm doubting some of the, I'm doubting some of the. life choices I've made today. But that's all right. Let's move into the here and now.

Canada, Max, is thinking about sending troops to Greenland as a show of support for NATO as it relates to Donald Trump's threats of annexing the place. And I know we're already going to go there as part of some NORAD exercises, but there's a, there is consideration apparently being given to the sort of the symbolic presence of being there as a pushback against Donald Trump. How do you feel about this? I mean, where do you even start with this, right? The idea that we even have to entertain the prospect of Donald Trump invading Greenland

and invading Greenland because Norway didn't give him the Nobel Peace Prize that came out today. It's just so far beyond the realm of what I think any of us thought possible. So, you know, I think it's clear that our best friends right now are in Europe. They are our closest allies. And we need to stand with them just as we need them to stand with us, should the Trump administration cast its gaze to Canada. And Trump said something to that effect, I think last night, that he was concerned about the lack of Arctic security in Canada. So, you know, putting troops in Greenland isn't going to do anything to stop Donald Trump.

but it will send a message to our allies in Europe that we have their back. And we're going to need them more than ever going forward, I think. Dimitri, how do you see this? Tripwire. This is what European countries are doing. And I hope and I trust that Canada will join in this trip wire. It's a military term that basically means doing something in order to act as a deterrent. And a couple of points that I'm giving some consideration to number one.

So Canada does have an obligation under its NATO membership to play the role that it must play, i.e. send 10 or 15 or 20 troops, which by the way should not be laughed at. This is what you do in circumstances like this. It's planting the flag and saying we are here. Think twice. Second point, so as soon as UK, Germany, France, and Germany started saying we're sending troops to Greenland, Donald Trump immediately took out of his playbook the tariff threat, 10% in February, 25% by June, if they haven't all left so he can conquer Greenland.

Which then begs the following question. The extortion deal, sorry, the trade deal that he signed with the European Union six or seven months ago. Yeah. What is it worth if he signs a document six months ago and then he basically says tariffs, which then means what's the point of finalizing a Kuzma deal with a guy who is going to act like a baby as if he lost a golf game and then say, oh, I'm just going to throw the tariffs. The good news in all of this, there was a poll done by CBS where an overwhelming majority of Americans, including Republicans, are completely against this nonsense, whether it's military use or acquisition of a piece of land. No, listen, I'm glad you brought all of those things into the conversation. I was going to bring up one at a time, but they're all interrelated.

And look, my first reaction, I'll be completely honest, was like, why would we do this when we have to get a deal with Donald Trump? Like, why give them something else? But then I go back to, you know, one of my core beliefs, which is my pride in our membership to NATO. and one of the founding nations in NATO. And an attack on one is an attack on all. And I'd never considered that the attack would come from inside the house,

but that's what we're talking about here. And so to me, it's sort of like, you know what? If he is going to be the aggressor, then we have to be on the right side of this and damn the consequences as it relates to that deal. Further to that, Max, I'll come back to you, But further to that is what Dmitri just said. You know, you've got, if Kierre Starm was sitting there, I remember, the U.K.

was the first country to supposedly get a deal on trade with the new Trump administration. And they were held up by the Trump administration, by, hey, they came to play. They came to play and we're rewarding them with the first deal. Well, now, just because of this, he's threatening them all with tariffs. Exactly what Dimitri said. What's the point of a deal? Yeah, what is the point? And I do hope that the folks who were arguing for appeasement with the Trump administration last year and the ones who are still arguing for it, the Premier of Alberta, reflect on the value of making a deal with this administration and this man.

It clearly means nothing. He will go back on his word at a moment's notice if it suits him. And I think we're getting to the point now that Prime Minister Harper talked about last year, which was, you know, we have to, we have to, we have to, we have to, figure out how much pain we're willing to endure to protect this country because it's not going to be painless. I think we've reached the moment where that is clear. And I think all elected officials, you know, the prime minister, the leader of the opposition, premiers have to start talking about this. How much pain can we tolerate? Where are we willing to make sacrifices? It has reached that moment. And we still haven't heard from the U.S. Supreme Court on Donald

Trump's ability to tariff. But this again seems to me, and I asked you the question, last time, Dimitri, like his mercurial use of this tariff power that he claims he has, I think demonstrates that there is, it's not rooted in anything except his feelings that day. And that's not a, that's not a lawful use of tariff power. And so my hope, Max, is that the Supreme Court of the United States, of whom he appointed most of them come back and deplete that power so that we might be able to negotiate with somebody that has a few fewer arrows in their quiver. So yeah, it sounds like we're going to get a ruling from the Supreme Court at some point

in the next week or two on this. What I've been hearing is that it's probably going to be a mixed decision. It's not going to be 100%. Yes, he can use tariffs or 100% no. And, you know, I think he will find a way to muddle through with whatever powers the court gives him. And it's only going to be when we get a new Congress in 2027 that we will potentially have a constraint on his willingness and ability to use tariffs. Until then, you know, we're the frog in the boiling water. Yeah, yeah.

Dimitri, if you are advising this prime minister on today, just today on what to do, next on what we're talking about. What would you advise? So start negotiations on Kusma, drag them out for as long as possible. And hope the two things happen. The mandate runs out and he's gone or God makes a decision.

Well, yeah. No, I see what you're saying there. But listen, when he leaves if there's a, if there's a choice if J.D. J.D. Vance is a true believer in the MAGA in the MAGA movement. I mean, he was right. Maga ain't going anywhere. And so. Yes, but I don't think anybody can incarnate this level of madman of the village behavior every single day. Yeah, you're,

right. Yeah, there's certain things that Donald Trump, it feels like he has the memory of a goldfish on certain things. He remembers slights on him forever. But when it comes to, to, oh, I don't know, the signing of the USMCA that he claimed was the greatest trade deal of all time to then turn around and say that he's getting ripped off by the Canadians. I still have no idea how he can reconcile those two things in his mind. It makes no sense to me. Well, yeah, go on, Max. Well, you know, as to what comes after, if and when God makes a decision or time runs out,

you know, Trump has this bizarre blend of an ability to. to terrify people and charm them. And J.D. Vance has neither of those in his skill set. So, you know, to Dimitri's point, I don't think he is capable of holding together these wildly disparate views that Trump has somehow managed to kind of put the Republican party in charge of, you know, having them oppose free trade, having them opposed NATO. I just don't think that it will hold once he's gone. All right.

We're going to have to take a break. But when you said terrify, I thought you said terrify. And I thought that was a great, great new word that we might have to be. Hey, when we come back, there's somebody who wants to throw his hat into the ring to help the liberals get a deal with the Americans. And it's a conservative. We'll talk about that on the other side. Is this really the best use of my time? Can my clients quick tax questions ever be quick?

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Amazing days is on now with your local Metro. Save big on amazing items. Like a 12-pack of selected Coca-Cola and Canada dry cans, only 699 each. And selected varieties of VH sauce just 244 each, only till January 21st. Shop in store or at metro.com. I want to thank Dimitri and Max for sticking around for a second segment.

And Jamil Giovanni, the conservative MP, has offered his services to the liberal government to help in any way that he can in getting a deal with the Americans in any way that we can. He has a personal relationship with the vice president of the United States, J.D. Vance. They went to Yale together. And he says, look, we're old friends. We don't talk all the time. but if I were to get ill again, and he successfully battled cancer,

you know, he would be on the phone, not just with me, but with my mother. And so there is a personal relationship there. And I wonder what you guys think, because I'm coming from this, I'm coming at this from a very particular personal place, which is to say that in, when Donald Trump was first elected,

the liberal governor of Justin Trudeau had no points of access to them. They'd thrown in entirely with Hillary that when they got surprised on election night, they didn't know who to call. And so my dad was enlisted to help. And credit where credit is due, they treated him very, very well.

A lot of credits, Justin, I think, did something very, that I hope continues, which he leveraged the intellectual heft of the prime ministers that preceded him, as opposed to what we've done far too often in this country, which is we turn the page and we forget that that person is there. and we don't leverage their relationships.

And they did so with him and treated him with the utmost respect. And Justin and his team have my respect for that. But if there is that stuff on the table that you don't have, if there's a skill set that somebody else has, why not use it? And I'll start with you, Dmitri. So, first of all, it's very generous of Mr. Giovanni to offer his support. realistically speaking there's two things that he can do if he knows the path to the holy grail he should offer that advice that strategic advice to the government in place the other thing that

obviously he has access to is vice president advanced so you know intelligence and what i mean by intelligence i don't mean smarts intelligence information gathering is is what matters in in such circumstances. I think he should proactively take a trip to Washington, have a private meeting with Vice President Vance, and say, what do we need in order to do a deal? And then come back and share that information either with the Prime Minister or his key minister, Dominique LeBlanc. What Donald Trump ultimately care, Donald Trump only cares about three things, to be flattered, to not be insulted and for his family's personal wealth to increase. So maybe a path in all of this is for us to bribe Donald Trump, give him a bunch of contracts, and help his family wealth grow by a few

billion dollars. I fundamentally do not believe that in these circumstances there is a true path to the Holy Grail. The true path to the Holy Grail is working our butts off to reduce our dependency as much as possible, even if it's 5 or 10 percent, as much as possible from the United States. that's the path. Max, let's look at this from the government's perspective. I can't see how taking him up on his offer could be anything. It certainly can't be a bad thing because if you bring somebody on from the other side of the aisle, you look magnanimous. If it succeeds, if in fact he does add value, you look smart and you look like a genius. And if it fails, then the conservative party is partly to blame. Yeah, I'm in the habit of agreeing.

with both of you today. I agree completely with what Dimitri just said, and I completely agree with you there. I think it would be very wise for them to, you know, maybe the prime minister sits down with him, has a coffee, and they can talk about how they work together to try to crack this nut. I don't think that the constraint is access to J.D. Vance. I don't get the sense that J.D. Vance is actually in the important conversations right now. He spends more of his time picking fights on Twitter than being in the rooms where the real negotiations are happening. That seems to be Marco Rubio and Steve cough. But, you know, more voices, more people, you know, lending a supportive hand is not a bad thing. And I also think it would stir some, you know, if we want to be really political about this,

it would stir some dissent within the conservative caucus. You know, I suspect there are people in Pierre Pahliav's midst who wonder why J. or wonder why Jamil Giovanni is freelancing like this, why he is trying to raise his own profile at the very moment where the leader is undergoing a leadership review. So, you know, there are many wins here. for the liberals in taking Mr. Giovanni up on his offer, and I think that they should. Yeah, yeah. Well, to be continued, in our last few minutes, I want to talk about a story in the CBC where the question that they posed was, how can municipalities sustain this?

11 protests in one weekend in Vancouver, police don't have the resources. And they pointed to a number of, you know, a protest about Kurdistan and a protest or demonstration, in favor of the people of Iran and a bunch of other ones. And I posited a few well over a year ago, as talking about Toronto. I said, if you normalize and give license to anybody to take their outrage about something perceived or real from the other side of the world

and apply it to this city as the most multicultural city in the world, then you are giving license to every different cultural community of which there are hundreds to do the exact same thing. and the city will grind to a halt. So when I read this, it didn't surprise me. But if you take it in good faith, if you take this reporting in good faith, Max will start with you. What's the path forward?

You know, look, freedom isn't free, and there are costs to living in a multicultural diverse society. This is the Vancouver I love, that we have, you know, a large Iranian diaspora. We have all these different cultural communities. and they gather downtown because you know especially around the art gallery there downtown is the place that you do these things and i'm not troubled by this at all i think you know you you maybe create a space or you create a zone where these things can happen so it's minimally intrusive on traffic on local business and what have you um but one of the great things about canada is

that we can have these disagreements we can hear from these different groups and it all happens peacefully, or it should happen peacefully. And then we go about our day. And maybe as we're downtown, we learned something new. We didn't before. We find out things about different communities. We didn't know that troubled them. And I just, yeah, I just don't see the downside of having people speak out about their

concerns. That was the most romantic version of what's been going on in this country that I could possibly imagine. That might have been what you just described to me might have been the case in the first couple of months after October 7th. But that's not what I see anymore. Dmitra, how do you see it? So let's take Max's idea, which I fully support,

i.e. create protest zones, create areas where people can protest, get a permit. Whoever, so this is the easiest question of the last century you just asked. Oh, good. People who do not respect the rules of not disrupting and not creating and wreaking havoc, you arrest them, you charge them, and every time that happens, it's a $1,000 fine. So all the police really needs to do

is something as simple as enforced the laws. Wait, hold on. So hold on, I need to wrap my head around this complex idea that you just brought up. Hold on. So you're saying, oh, gosh, let me just all carry the two. So you're saying that we have laws on the books that if applied could make all,

of this more reasonable and could make all of this make more sense? You got it. Wow. Sorry, I just, it's just, it's just, it's a lot to take in. It's a lot, lot to take in. Max, how do you respond? You got about 40 seconds, but how do you respond to the idea that everything you said makes sense, but because the police aren't and have not been in a tradition of,

of enforcing the laws, we have all these negative knock-on effects from what should be well-respected and someone's ability to exercise their rights. Yeah, look, I'm all for the police enforcing the law on these things. And I agree, you know, you get your permit. You go to the place where you're supposed to express your views. And if you don't follow those rules, you pay a price. And I would go, I would go higher than 1,000. I'd go 10,000.

Oh, God, Max. I'm liking the cut of your gym today. But, and maybe in Western Canada, you guys haven't seen it that much, but it has been a total and utter disaster, both in Toronto and Montreal, over the last couple of years. All right, guys, we've got to leave it there. As always, a great way to start the week with you guys. Really appreciate it.

And we will see you next time. See you next week. Just as a reminder, if you want more BMS, we put out a podcast every day. Yes, indeed, but it's that time of the week where we like to invite one of the best friends of the Ben Mulroney show around Tony Chapman, the host of the award-winning podcast, Chatter That Matters, as well as the founding partner of Chatterer AI. After last week's conversation, I now know what Chatter AI is.

Tony, welcome to the show. Ben, always a pleasure to be with you. So we want to talk about, we want to get to know China and Chinese EVs a little better as we embark on this new sort of thawing of a relationship with the world's second largest economy. And as for those who are just joining us, Mark Carney left China with a deal to lower canola tariffs and tariffs on agricultural products, which is a big win. And it's certainly something that our hardworking farmers deserve so that, and we didn't eliminate him completely down to 15%. And we have now opened the door to importing as many as 49,000 EVs made in China.

to Canada. So we don't know yet what that means. But I guess I'd love to ask you from what you know about this is why are Chinese cars considered security? Get your swouse of deals at food basics. Find select varieties of dare cookies or crackers for just one ninety-eight each. Shop in store and online until January 21st. Food basics. Always more for less. At Medcan, we know that life's greatest moments are built on a foundation of good health, from the big milestones to the quiet winds. That's why our annual health assessment offers a physician-led, full-body checkup that provides a clear picture of your health today and may uncover early signs of conditions like heart disease and cancer.

The healthier you means more moments to cherish. Take control of your well-being and book an assessment today. Medcan. Live well for life. Visit medcan.com slash moments to get started. threats. Well, electric vehicles are no longer just cars. You've got to think of them as rolling data centers. They've got cameras, microphones, GPS, biometric pairing with phones, constant software updates. So the security is unbelievable. We're already seeing in the states where insurance companies are buying that data to decide how much of a premium you should pay. So understanding

everywhere you drive, whether it's an EV or gas powered, you're creating data. Now, with China, the difference is China has this law that says any company does business in China has to cooperate with their intelligence services. In other words, they can't contain that data. If the Chinese intelligence service knocks on the door of that EV company and says, I want it, they're compelled to bring it over. So although that's the big issue because you get to deal with the fact that everywhere you drive, every conversation you have on the phone through your car, Every GPS metric is data. And so what is going to give somebody that wants to use it to their advantage, not

necessarily yours, is an amazing footprint on not only you, but anybody else that happens to be driving their car. So it's a powerful statement. But it would be more powerful if we hadn't started giving away our data for free and opening up the door with lackadaisical. security on our phones and sharing everything for the past decade and change. And it would be a more powerful statement if even we like we knew TikTok was an issue and people have been jumping on TikTok.

I have a friend who told me. He said he said TikTok is and it's a friend I trust in terms of in this world. He said TikTok is a security threat and people didn't care and they jumped on board. So if they didn't care about that, why would Canadians care about? the same thing, just different. Well, you know, it's typical Canada. We kind of just think that the good guys are always going to take care of us. Let me talk you about TikTok.

It's a great example. If you look at TikTok in China, so many of the videos are about empowering ingenuity, innovation and creativity, where in America, it really was to sort of lower the intellect of society. China was using TikTok as a means for engaging and connecting. with a head, heart and hands of a very young, influential group. Why wouldn't they do the same thing with the cars? And the other argument, which is a little bit more sci-fi, is what else can they control

with those cars? Can they take them over? Can they hijack it? Can they suddenly take over the self-driving and turn those cars into something that could be a weapon? And again, that's sci-fi right now. There's no evidence they would do that. But anytime you present China as someone you're doing business with,

especially when it comes down to electronics, you have to realize that that data that you're excreating is going to be used to fertilize China's long-term game in terms of where they want to be as an economic superpower and where they want to see their adversaries. And that's the concern people have. Well, look, I just want us to cast our regard back to 2018, where my intrepid producer, as a journalist working for global news, did a story about Google Maps. and how that car that does the street view drove right past CESIS headquarters in Ottawa and captured images of employees in their vehicles, even though there's a no photography sign. And the experts said that the blurred license plates, you could still figure out who owned those cars. You could still figure out where they lived. This was of great security concern.

This was back in 2018. So I'm of two minds. on one hand I say Look, we've been living in this world already So what does it matter? But then there's the other side that Google I think their motto used to be do no harm And maybe that's not exactly on the nose

But they're not out there with nefarious intent to control the world I don't know that we can necessarily say the same thing About the Communist Party of China So you know, I really am of two minds And I'm trying to figure out what it is But suffice it to say, Tony, we've been living in a world of compromised personal security and information for over a decade. And it's getting the internet IoT, the internet of everything is really happening where your fridges are connected, your toasters are going to be connected. And everything is getting data.

You hear the expression data is new oil. Yeah. The average person really doesn't understand it that every time they take your data and they use it. and with these incredible algorithms, they can do a couple things. They can keep you more engaged in their media. That includes Google. The more time your eyeballs are there. The more money they make.

They can fly fish exactly what you're looking for. Amazon's tested where they're going to send products to your home that you haven't even ordered. And they have a 90% propensity that you're going to keep them because they know when you're going to need them. Oh, God. So this world is changing. So the point where can we put up any defense against it? Probably not. Because we get really excited that Facebook is free.

Instagram's free. It's not free. You're the product. You're the product and you're not getting paid for. It's like you're doing free labor. I want to move on to something that I think I cannot believe it didn't exist and I'm so glad it does. Heinz ketchup has created a functional upgrade to the French fry container. Like everyone knows what the one at McDonald's looks like.

They all kind of look the same with the fries standing up. But there's been nowhere to put your ketchup. And they've created this insert that folds out and you can you can put it, fill it with ketchup, and that's your Heinz dipper. And this to me is a game changer. I cannot believe that I've lived this long without this type of addition to my life. First of all, give credit to a Canadian independent agency rethink who's winning awards all over the world because they don't think themselves in the advertising world or in the insight business. And this insight was ketchup is messy.

I love ketchup. But when I'm driving and I take out. French fry pack, it's messy, so this dipper solves a problem. It's now in seven countries. So it is a pitch idea. All of a sudden, Heinz saw it and not only that, it's also part of their mandate to prove its Heinz. Second thing they found out is the actual French fry package is very similar to the actual

iconic logo of Heinz. It has a similar shape. Oh, that's a good point. So again, the rethink has done this twice. They've looked at the consumer consuming the product versus how do I get you to buy more and saying by understanding those dynamics, we can do more for the client. That to me is great marketing. When you understand how people think, feel, and act and you position your brand accordingly, that's brilliant marketing. And I give full credit, this Heinz dipper, as you said, how could that

not have been invented in the past? And everybody's going to love it, especially Heinz, because you're going to put more ketchup where you would have just put a bit on. But I got to ask, yeah, I got to ask, is it true? I can't remember if I'm thinking of the right thing, but did McDonald's abandoned Heinz to make their own ketchup. And they got pushed back beyond belief. And then Heinz also caught restaurants pouring fake ketchup into the Heinz bottle. Right. Yeah.

And so they've come this whole sort of validation, almost like to sing with the NBA with the logo on the hat saying this is official NBA. Heinz is trying to do the same thing. I got to say, like honestly, with this, if I know that like if there's two fast food joints that I have equal feelings about and I know one's got this and one doesn't, I'm going to go the one that's got this if I'm going through the drive-thru. Without question. Yeah. It's so brilliant. And these are the simple ideas.

We get so caught up with the big film and the movies, TV advertising. This is just looking at somebody in a car spilling ketchup on their suit, swearing at themselves and saying, I'm not going to get ketchup next time. And Heinz has solved it. And by the way, sharing, you're not double-dip, everything that goes with it. It's just a lot of fun. And again, Canadian, rethink, Canadian, some of the best creative. the world's coming out of that agency and other agencies like Zulu and stuff.

So very proud that that's a made in Canada story. Well, Tony Chapman, always appreciate the time on this show with you. It's a lot of fun. I appreciate you, my friend. Always a pleasure. I have an announcement. Your favorite family in law. It's Lawyering 101.

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