The Ben Mulroney Show - Montreal motive/World Cup fever!/Ottawa police scandal/San Fran lack of pride

Episode Date: June 24, 2026

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This podcast is brought to you by the National Payroll Institute, the leader for the payroll profession in Canada, setting the standard of professional excellence, delivering critical expertise, and providing resources that over 45,000 payroll professionals rely on. So we have a great show lined up for you. We're going to try to keep this conversation nice and open, keep it moving quickly.

We have a lot of different things going on. We're going to talk about the Ottawa police of all places. They're caught in a really compromising situation. You'll want to hear about that. How could a baseball team in San Francisco, mind you, in San Francisco mess up Pride Night of all the cities in the United States and Canada where they could do it? San Francisco, that's great as well. Also, tell you why you should not steal if you want to keep your job, especially in this day and age with cameras everywhere, people looking to catch you. Canada has been bailing out developers out in Vancouver.

Yeah, I love that. As somebody who struggled with his mortgage seriously over the last, like, five, six years, where's my bailout? Where is it? Where's the help for Canada's middle class? Canada's lower class. Where is the help? Well, we're bailing out developers. We're going to chat about that as well.

And also, why do Canadian hockey teams need to pay closer attention to current events? They do. There is something of foot which could threaten the long-term stability of, or just the winability of Canadian teams. But first, the biggest story of the week, the biggest story in Canada, has sadly been that horrific shooting in Montreal. It was something that it played out right into our show the other day.

And we were talking to people as they were, you know, they were still in lockdown. It was a terrifying moment. It played out on YouTube. The videos were just tragic to see. and sadly very graphic. People posted them and reposted them. And at that point, there's no the cat's out of the bag,

and it's hard to pull those videos down. So a lot of people saw stuff that they probably didn't want to see. But also, in some ways, it's a good thing they did see it, because then they can maybe get the idea that we really have a problem. It's not a gun problem. that's not what this was. This is not a gun issue. This is a societal issue.

And now we're learning a lot more about the shooter. We're learning a lot more about, or rather we're guessing, because obviously the shooter is dead. But, you know, why was he there? We thought originally it's a Jewish neighborhood. And there's been a lot of anger and violence towards Jews over the last couple of years. So that was the obvious inclination right on. off the top.

We were like, okay, yeah, it has to be because of that. But then it didn't appear that the shooter was aiming at the population in particular. So that you made us wonder, okay, so why else? Well, then it looks like he was targeting cops. And we learned from this guy's manifesto later on that, no, he actually did hate cops. He hated authority, hated police. What other business is there? What other business?

Oh, yeah. Pornhub. that's where porn hubs headquarters is. And that is part of this guy's manifesto. So what happened in Montreal, it is the kind of story that really stops you cold. It's a 25-year-old kid. He's an honor student from Lethbridge. His name was Seth Scott Hatfield.

He traveled across the country, put all his tactical gear. And then he opened up from inside a building. And again, why? it seems like because Pornhub was there. So now they're investigating this. They're looking into this manifesto. There's 104-page manifesto that's made its way around the internet. And it's tied to this kid Hatfield.

And I hate to say kid, because he's not. He's 25 years old, young man. But this thing is, it's loaded with like, let me see, in-cell style ideology, so people who are involuntarily celibate. Lots of that. anti-Semitic crap, anti-capitalist rants, which don't make any sense. So they list off a whole bunch of targets, including pornography companies. It wasn't random.

It was not random. It wasn't spontaneous. He planned this. He traveled to Montreal and he acted out his twisted fantasy because something was amiss in the world that he couldn't fix for himself. The cost, too many people. There was two people dead, you know, the constable Mohammed, Ben Rundan. I got his name wrong. It's a sad.

Hard name to pronounce, but he's a young father. He hadn't been a cop for very long. A 68-year-old man, Michael Mizrahi, looked like he was caught in the crossfire. We're still trying to learn about exactly what happened with him. And he seemed like a very, from what everybody said, a nice, gentle night. So these relatively like normal people who are victims of this horrible, this horrible act. So meanwhile, over in Alberta, our friends in Alberta, our police friends there, they're evacuating homes, which I'm sure freaks people out, the neighbors out, wonder what is going on.

They're conducting these high-risk searches of this guy's residence. They're trying to figure out. They have to figure out because we need to know what pushed this guy over the edge. his friends described him as smart. He was opinionated. Hey, who isn't? But he was also kind of funny. You got to be smart.

To be funny, you got to be smart. But he was also into like full-blown violent extremism. And there you go. Was it enough for anybody to flag? Was it enough for anybody to say, hey, this is, you should take a look at this police? We'll learn more about that. But it's, this is the part that really should. shake people. He wasn't on anybody's radar.

He wasn't a creepy loner. He wasn't ranting in public. He was just a kid who drifted through school. He got good grades. And he had this worldview that was so warped. It ended in this violent exchange with police. And these are the things that this is why I'm talking about this. We need

to identify this. If you see someone in your life, not necessarily a family member, right? If you see someone in your life that shows these tendencies that spouts off about this stuff, flag it. Oh, what's the worst that can happen? Oh, police visit this person and talk to them and find out there's nothing wrong.

That's the worst. Could it ruin your relationship? Possibly. Could it damage it? Okay, there might be some hard feelings, but you can work through it, right? You know, we're getting some text, a child's brain is not fully developed until age 25. Yeah, that's true. But you would hope at this point at 25, this guy knew what he was doing.

So now we have the police across this country now working on this. They're trying to piece this together because, and, you know, it's a good thing. I never feel sad for when the shooter dies. But I feel sad that we don't get to ask him the questions that we need answered. I'm a little bit split on that, very much so. And we need, we didn't know really why he was doing this. So we have these families that are grieving, a community obviously shaken. If you've been near any of this stuff before, you know how tough it is.

I've been in disaster zones, war zones. It is not easy to see this stuff and then to go back to a regular life. It is not. when you see the worst of humanity, it changes your worldview. It does change your worldview. So please, please keep your eyes open. I don't want to talk about this guy anymore. As the news develops, we'll give you updates.

We will. But this is what we are learning more about this guy. We need absolutely for people to keep their head in a swivel and to keep their eyes open. Because in this day and age, there are more. people like this than you may know. I love seeing videos that pop up online of people doing stupid things. And

it seemed in the last week, most of them came from New York after the New York Knicks won their championship. First one and I believe what, 53 years? There were a lot of people doing crazy things. There was the woman who climbed up a pole and then she got ripped off

by this other woman and jumped up and then the other woman, it was just, it was ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly. I thought it was a joke at first because there was some spanking involved, but then it turned out it was not because there was some punching involved. So basically it's just New York on a Tuesday at 3 o'clock. That's just New York. But there was this other video after this. They really wanted to make it special in New York. So they put out all the colors, the Knicks colors. They, you know, they had millions of people out watching this parade. and the city decided, well, you know what, let's get in on the act,

and let's make these garbage bins. Let's paint them in New York Knick colors. So they put them in New York Knick colors. And people saw them, they said, oh, those look pretty cool. It's a garbage bin in New York Knicks colors. That looks like something that I might. That might look good in my apartment or house. Wow, that looks awesome.

So this one woman, larger woman, wearing all Nix colors as well, an orange beanie goes up to this garbage can of course somebody's filming her she grabs it dumps out all the garbage and then just walks away with it is that it no because she has to take this thing home then there's pictures of her with this garbage bin on the subway pictures of her all over the place

and she's smiling like like an idiot who just stole something because that's what she did well of course do you think somebody hey joy do you think anybody recognized her I don't think so. Oh, you're wrong. So wrong. How would they not recognize her?

Did they? Of course they did. Wow. It's a city of what, 10 million, 15 million people, something like that. And yeah, but yet it was because it was such a weird thing to do, her face was everywhere. Oh, and it turns out this woman, her name's Angie Baez. And it turns out she also works for J.P. Morgan Chase. She's an executive director there.

She's also a former DEI leader at multiple companies. She was co-founder of a queer Bipok talent agency. And from what you see online, she seems like a kind of a preachy kind of person. There were no criminal charges filed, although the NYPD said, that could be like peteer larcening and littering. And the sanitation department said, it's illegal, stupid. And then do you know what J.P. Morgan Chase said? they said she's no longer with the company.

So that, my friends, is why you don't steal even a garbage can in the public eye. Because there's cameras everywhere. And is it worth it? No, at the end of the day, it's not. You become infamous for something so stupid, and all you're left with is a garbage can. Which brings us to my favorite part of the show. I love talking. There is something amazing about all the Europeans that are coming over and discovering America.

and Canada and to an extent Mexico. It seems we're not seeing as much for Mexico as we are from the U.S. and Canada. People are just enamored with everything here. They love the Costco. They love these massive gas stations, these bucky gas stations in the States. The food is out of control. They're like, look at the size of this. Look how good this is.

It's fantastic. And obviously a lot of these teams are playing over here. The Scots, Team Scotland is now in Florida, and so all these Scotland fans are down in Miami. But they were in Boston before, and the people in Boston just loved them because they drank them. They drank the city dry. They were friendly. There was jokes that nine months from now, there's going to be a lot of babies with Scottish DNA. That's a joke with a wink-wink, because apparently there's a lot of truth to that.

But then they left and who came in, the English fans. and the English fans are known for, how would you say this, Joy, rowdiness? Oh, a lot of rowdiness. A lot of rowdiness. Something like that. Yeah, so they are full of them in vigor, and they have been rubbing the Bostonians the wrong way with their rude chants and their drunken behavior.

It's not quite the same as with the Scots. The love affair is gone. So it just so happens that England was playing Ghana the other day. They were struggling. And I just, I thought that this line from one of the announcers just is chef's kiss. Ghana have never beaten England. It would be a huge shock. But as we know, the English historically struggle here in Massachusetts.

Yeah, they struggle in Massachusetts, the Boston Tea Party. So hence, yeah, they didn't, they tied Ghana, which was they should not have. They should have beaten them. But they tied them. And, yeah, so the English, they struggle on the football pitch. pitch and then they have struggled in just Boston in general. So then

it brings me to the Norwegians. Ah, my Norwegians. I'm part French, part Norwegian, all Canadian. All Canadian. If I had a Canadian jersey, I would wear them, but you can't buy them anywhere. Sold out. But the Norwegians have first time in World Cup in a major tournament

26 years, something like that. And so after they won the other day, in Oslo, they marched up to the Royal palace in the middle of the night and they were chanting, we're going to wake up the king. Okay, well, it's in Norwegian, so, yeah, I'm translating it for you. We're going to wake up the king. Poor King Harold, he's 89 years old. Don't wake him up. That was three or four in the morning. That is too early to wake up an 89-year-old guy, a king who they actually do like.

So, but it's still, it just shows the passion that they have. And of course, then the French. Oh, my God, the French. And I'm wearing a French jersey circa 2006, the Zidaneers, Zidaneers. But the French, we're in Philadelphia. And what I love is that Philadelphia changed the rules. They bars open there around 11 or 12. But during the World Cup for World Cup games, they can open as early as 7 a.m.

So we don't know what time this was, but it could have been 7 a.m. or it could have been 11 or 12. But knowing the French, 7 a.m. is reasonable. But this is what they were yelling in the bar, chanting in the bar. Open the bar. Open the bar. Open the bar. Yeah, they wanted the bar opened. And I'm guessing it was really honest about 7 a.m. That's reasonable, right, Joy? 100%. For French army, it is reasonable. So then that brings us to our last.

little bit here are the fun little World Cup stories which tell your family about later because they're true and they're awesome. The TSA in the United States, the safety, the guys who check you at the border, right? So they've been having some fun on their

social media. They sent this one out just today. Soccer fans visiting a very large gas station for the first time. Carry on barbecue sandwiches and beaver nuggets? Yes. An actual beaver? An actual beaver? Absolutely not. people must be trying to take on stuff that, you know, they should not be.

And which brings us to what they have been taking on, which is, oh, yeah, ranch dressing. They've discovered ranch dressing. The Europeans are stealing our ranch, smuggling it in boxes and suitcases, sneaking it through TSA. In fact, they've issued a plea to World Cup travelers visiting the United States. TSA has a message for international flyers flying home. home from the World Cup. You can't take home bottles of ranch dressing on a carry-on. Do not hide bottles in your carry-on.

So don't hide bottles in your carry-on. They have to tell people that. They've just enjoyed it so much. Do you know how many stories are out there about Europeans taking ranch dressing home? I think it's the biggest story of the World Cup. I think so. So now, you know, Kraft has jumped in on it. And they've actually started creating these TSA compliant ranch packets.

Pretty cool. Hey, you can bring your ranch back. Just do it with craft. Smart, smart, very, very smart. It's Charles Barkley with Wayfair. It's outdoor season and my patio set up. That'll be ready to play. That's what Wayfair wins.

Patio seating, umbrellas, and grills. All delivered fast and easy. Shopwayfair.ca.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. I was a reporter for a number of years, a long time. And I would look at stories dispassionately. I would approach them from a very even keel position. It wasn't my position to be able to put my opinion on anything.

The idea was that I would make an argument, put it out there, so then people could debate it later on. But there were always times when I would do stories. would go, wow, did they ever, the people are doing a story, did they ever mess that up? You really do not understand media. You do not understand how to get your message out. And it's remarkable. In this day and Asia, people are still like that.

Well, you know what, though? It's probably a good thing, though, because that keeps my next guest, a good friend Mike Van Soule and employed, right? It does. It does. Mike, thanks for having me on again. Always appreciate being here. But yeah, we're in a world where, you know, insert foot in mouth is epidemic.

And good or bad, that does keep me busy. Well, people insert their foot in the mouth. And then it's your job to insert your foot somewhere else to get them straightened out. That's it. That's it. So you're with the Oyster Group. And how many different clients do you work with? Like sort of what, just give you a sense of what realms?

Sure, sure. I mean, we were. Without naming clients specifically. That's fine. The reality is that companies big and small organizations for-profit, not-for-profit, charities, individuals all live in this world of media. And at any one time, you know, the spotlight can fall on them. You know, and where I come in is when it's a difficult story to tell, whether it's a cyber breach or something difficult about a product you have, these are all the reasons that they might come and talk to the Oyster Group about how do they manage that situation. So those are the things that we sort of deal with,

and I know you have a few stories talking about here today. But we also, I mean, because we've worked in the media for so long, I think we just take it for granted that we go, of course you're going to do this. Of course you're going to say that. But not everybody is media savvy. Well, that's right. And people have instincts to, you know,

there's a normal conversational instinct. If someone asks you a question directly, as, you know, polite Canadians, we have an impulse to then answer that question. honestly and directly. But there's times where you need to make choices of, you know, because the media comes and asks me this question, and am I obliged to answer it? And what should I say?

There are still choices to make. And it's really that sort of the nuances between what to do and what not to do that is really where we get involved. Well, that's a really good way of putting it, because we're going to have a couple of examples here of choices that I believe some of them good, some of them poor, in terms of how to approach the media. Let's start with this first one. And let's see if people can guess which side of the ledgers of this one falls on.

And we're talking about the Ottawa police. I saw this video come out the other day of the Ottawa Police Chief, this man named Eric Stubbs. And I was floored. I hadn't heard the story before. I did not know that the Ottawa police were under pressure to be able to get their members under control because as he is, as we learned, a number of officers, and we don't know exactly how many, but we have some examples, have been accessing databases to be as kind of a dating app. They've been women who have been the victims of crime.

they've been getting their phone numbers and calling and asking them out, which I would think is a no-no. I would think that anybody would automatically say, you know what, that's over a line. But let's hear what Ottawa Police Chief Eric Stubbs had to say.

I want to have a serious and an uncomfortable conversation with all of you. Change your behavior now or quit. Leave. Members are using our databases. as their own way to meet women, seeing a woman at a coffee shop, coming out of a gym,

driving next to them, getting their license plates, and running them on the system. We've seen members messaging vulnerable victims on calls that they've attended in attempt to develop an intimate relationship. There is a clear need for OPS leadership to acknowledge that this issue remains present

and to speak openly about it. Silence or minimization only allows the behavior to continue. Wow. Which side of the leisure does that fall on? terms of a good media reaction. Chief Stubbs did the exact right thing, which is he has to call out bad behavior. He has to, he's speaking to both people in Ottawa in that moment,

and he's also speaking to people in the police service. To the people in Ottawa, it's critical that the police service maintain the trust. There is a social license that comes with being a police officer. When you swear the oath and you get the badge, the community, in this example, Ottawa is saying, we trust you, sir, ma'am, you know, we're going to give you this badge and we're going to give you these huge responsibility. If you don't have trust in policing, you've got nothing. It all falls apart. The whole thing falls apart. And this is why the chief has done such a great job here.

And of course, there's the old canard that, well, it's, you know, one bad apple, you know, these few people don't represent the many. true, but doesn't satisfy the anxieties that would be in Ottawa for hearing a story like this. And I think he's gone as, you know, it's difficult. These are collective, there's collective agreements that he can't just go fire them. But he's going to make it very clear. If you're a good police officer, this will be a great place to work. If you're a poor police officer, there's the door. Yeah, well, I mean, for him to say, you better change your act or quit.

Yeah. He says, I don't want to fire you. I want you to quit because this is, he doesn't want to have to deal with you. Because I guess in part, he, I mean, it's obviously, it doesn't look good on the police service. Right.

And he'd prefer it just to obviously go away. Yeah, well, we can all wish, you know, I deal with clients all the time who just wish, I'll go away and hope people just move on. And we do live in this sort of chaotic world where there, you know, we, of course, we have the attention span of, guppy fish and, you know, one crisis.

You just hope something new will emerge the next day. You hope Team Canada has a spectacular result and no one's paying attention to your story. But of course, wish or hope is not a strategy. And I think the chief here did a great job, which he has to show ownership and not be seen to be making, allowing for this type of behavior to be permitted in any way. When you're dealing with leaders like this, is the default, is the default for a lot of them to go to defensive position, to get really defensive? Because they're like, oh, wait, this isn't as bad as you think.

And we don't really want to admit guilt. So we're going to be a little defensive. Yeah, I think there is, there is an instinct, you know, a first reaction. You almost go through these seven stages of grief. And sort of early in that, early in that stack is denial. And it can't be as bad as people say, and you try to find a way to wish it away. But what you actually need to do is pivot and take ownership for what has taken place and take ownership for both what has happened and what may come out in subsequent days.

Like, get it and take responsibility for the whole thing right away. Otherwise, because, you know, I always offer, it's better to have one bad day in news than three. That's a great line. Don't screw it up. That's a really good advice. Very good advice. because if it goes on three days, because the news cycle is so short. If it's three days, that's a long, long time and people are not going to forget it.

So if they go denial at first, I imagine that as the story sort of progresses, how often do you see it if they start denial, they start with it's not as bad as you might think and or we're getting defensive? How long does it take for them to go over to the other side and go, oh, okay, yeah, it was bad and we apologize. Well, you know, I've been in all different situations. I've been where, you know, they deny it, you know, way too long. And the challenge with the denial, especially in the face of all the information, is then the apology never lands right either. Because people just see that you've been compelled to do it.

You have no choice but to apologize. And then you get no credit for the apology because, you know, everybody thinks it's a suspect motivation. Well, the Ottawa police have a lot of apologizing to do, a lot of answers that they, there's a lot of questions they have to answer because it's not looking good for them right now. And we've fallen in this story to see how it develops. We're continuing our conversation with Mike Van Sullen from Oyster Group about the reaction to terrible news, how it befalls your organization and how you respond. I just wanted to clear something up. We were talking just in our previous segment about the Ottawa police. And there is a horrible story out there about how these police officers there for a number of years have been using the database of the Ottawa police to get the phone numbers of women, women involving crimes.

We are not defending that. Absolutely not. We are not suggesting that that is defensible. We are just, we are talking about the reaction and how the police chief specifically reacted to that. and he had a very strong reaction whether or not that means that he's going to have to fire people or he's wanting people to quit. That's something else.

But it was just, we were talking about, from a media standpoint, but from a media point of view, did he react in a way that will make the public feel a little bit more trust in them? And, you know, I think they're going to lose a lot of trust. There's a really, you're not going to get everybody on side with this, But in all, we look at what he did and how he said it in a very positive way. So let's leave that one behind us.

But now let's switch our focus to down to the United States. San Francisco, what's San Francisco known for? Oh, it's known for its, what is it, Seven Hills? Seven Hills. Seven Hills. Seven Hills. It's known for earthquakes. Street cars.

Street carts, Alcatraz. It's known for its sports teams, famous sports teams down there. It's also known for being, I would argue, would be the heart of the gay movement in the states. I think they have the largest gay population there. Look, if I'm on Jeopardy, that's my answer to that question. Exactly. San Francisco is ground zero for LGBT community in the United States. San Francisco, possibly Miami.

But San Francisco is very much that. It has a massive population. So when they, June is Pride Month all over the place and all these teams are having Pride night. The Toronto Blue Jays had it. And they did, you know, they did a lot massive flags. They had events. They had merchandise. They had everything going on.

And, you know, a lot of people, I know a lot of people who went to that and they said it was, it was well done. But the San Francisco Giants, the baseball team, all they had to do, they decided to have a pride night. and they had these hats made. And their hats, it wasn't a huge deal. It was just a little bit of a rainbow on the hat. For the players to wear. For the players to wear. Now, this is where they messed up.

They didn't tell the players that they had a choice, that they could wear their normal caps or this cap. Because it's been a contentious issue pride nights in major league sports, sports across the spectrum for the last number of years. And we'll get into that in a second. But they weren't told they had a choice. So the players all grabbed the hats with the rainbow on them, but some who were devoutly religious began writing.

They began writing on them with Bible verses. And that did not go over well because you're not allowed to do that. Major League Baseball said, you can't do that. But then they went down and they were going to come down hard on the Giants and on the players. And then it turns out, oh, wait a second, no. The Giants never told the players that they had a choice. So their president, who is one of their all-time great players.

This guy named Buster Posey was asked, he finally, he appeared before the media, and he was going to finally answer these questions. And he made a little statement. Then he refused to answer anything. I'm going to answer baseball questions. Guys, we just need to keep it. baseball related or?

Well, you guys have made this baseball related because you had Pride Night. You allowed players onto the field that MLB said should not have had writing on their caps, violated MLB rules. Them MLB said that you guys didn't communicate with the players properly, that they didn't have to wear the hat. I believe he said, I'm only going to answer baseball questions at least five times. Could you mess that one? up anymore? No, I think they

hit every post here. This was so poorly executed on so many levels. Let's just say at the highest, at 100,000 feet, San Francisco Giants need to use a baseball metaphor. They need to hit

Pride Night out of the park. This is job number one for Pride and MLB is the Giants need to be able to do this properly. And they struck out with the bases loaded. Yeah. So poorly done.

But really there's mistakes all over here. For Buster Posey to go out and do a presser and a veil on the team, I don't know if he is wishful thinking. We talked about this earlier that they would just want to talk about baseball and they wouldn't bring this up. Of course they brought it up. And the reporter's question we just heard there is perfect. Even his attempt to bridge back to baseball.

when the reporter was able to bring it back so clearly as to why this actually is a baseball question. And you have every, there's every reason you should address it. Yeah, good job on the reporter. Reporter did a better job than Mr. Posey in this situation. But you can't put an executive up for any organization to respond to a crisis and just hope to wish it away and say, sorry, I'm not going to do that. Don't do the media veil. If you don't have a good answer, you know, don't do it.

If you weren't there, obviously, none of us were. But if you were a betting man, would you suggest that his media team did not talk to him beforehand? I'd be very curious. So it's malpractice. If the media team knew he was going to go out and that was going to be his approach, then I'd suggest, you know, the media team needs to go as well. The media team knew these questions were coming. Right.

Everyone did. So look, in certain organizations, if the boss, says, you know, this is the way I'm going to do it. You know, poor media person only has so much sway, perhaps, in the organization. But if the question is, if the media team had signed off on this approach, malpractice. What would you suggest they do going forward? The San Francisco Giants, kind of, you know, where I started, they need to do this properly. that is a city and a community that is looking to them to land this plane and to do it effectively.

Next year they'll have another crack at it, and I'd suggest they just have to do it. They have to do it pitch perfect, or again, they will be pilloried in the media. I think the Blue Jays may have done it correctly, where they had all the pride stuff everywhere around them, but they left the uniforms alone, so they took that narrative out. because we've seen that over the last number of years, players who were not happy about it for whatever reason. Right. Yeah, and as it's frustrating it is, you know, for many people that LGBTQ,

that a Pride night can't be something that just happens and isn't a source of controversy. The reality is we live in a world where that still is a political act on some level, and there will be responses on either side. You know, the irony of this one, of course, is for the players putting the Bible verses on the pride hat, the hardcore conservatives were upset by it. Yeah. And then, of course, the, you know, the LGBTQ, I'm not going to call them hard left, but there's other population of people or upset the other way. So you managed to make everyone mad.

Everyone mad. That's actually a real skill. That is, both feet in mouth. Well, Mike Van Sullen, I always love it. you come in, appreciate the fact. I'm happy that Ben wasn't here so I could chat with you today. Oh, it's my pleasure, Mike. Since the dawn of time, humanity has been at war. It has shaped the world around us. And if it somehow feels like we've been here before, it's because we have. I'm David Boris. I'm a military historian,

and on my new podcast, hostile history, I take us inside history's most defining wars and rebellions. From Genghis Khan to the war in Iran, find out how the past can explain the present. Search for and follow hostile history on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.