The Ben Mulroney Show - Ontario finally takes Sir John A. Macdonald out of his box... but what about Vandals?

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

Guests and Topics: -Ontario finally takes Sir John A. Macdonald out of his box... but what about Vandals? -TDSB formally recognizes "anti-Palestinian racism." with Guest: Casey Babb, Senior Fellow with the MacDonald Laurier Institute, Advisor to Secure Canada If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Ben Mulroney show on this Wednesday, May 28th. I am Ben Mulroney. Thank you so much for joining us today. I don't know a whole lot about a whole lot, but I do know that Newton's third law of motion states that every, for every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction. Well, yesterday's action was the throne speech for Mark Carney's government laying out his priorities read by the king of this country, King Charles. And so that was the action. The equal and opposite reaction was

perhaps Donald Trump not liking that very much and taking to his social media and talking about the Golden Dome. You'll remember that just a few weeks ago, he announced this ballistic missile dome, similar to the Iron Dome in Israel, that he is planning for the United States at a cost of $175 billion, US, I believe. Canada said they wanted to get in on it. And his reaction yesterday was, I told Canada, which very much wants to be part

of our fabulous Golden Dome system, that it will cost $61 billion if they remain a separate but unequal nation, but will cost $0 if they become our cherished 51st state. They are considering the offer. So the Prime Minister's office responded quite quickly. The Prime Minister has been clear at every opportunity, including in his conversations with president Trump that Canada is an independent sovereign nation

and it will remain one. Canadians gave the prime minister a strong mandate to negotiate a comprehensive new security and economic relationship with the United States. To that end, the prime minister and his ministers are having wide ranging and constructive discussions with their American counterparts. These discussions naturally include strengthening NORAD

and related initiatives such as the Golden Dome. So we were told in no uncertain terms by the Canadian, the US ambassador to Canada that the 51st state stuff that was over, Donald Trump knows better. Well, it turns out he's gonna pull it out anytime he wants. And that goes, out he's going to pull it out anytime he wants. And that goes that takes us back to the election campaign where Mark Carney successfully

convinced enough Canadians that for many reasons, but one of those reasons being, I'm going to be the guy who is going to tell Donald Trump to knock this silliness off. And people like myself said, that's not gonna happen. He's going to do what he wants to do when he wants to do it. And you sir, who come with a incredible resume and a number of skills and a depth of knowledge on a number of issues are not special in that way. You're not going to be the determining factor.

And he was offended by Justin Trudeau, which is why he called him Governor Trudeau. And now in my estimation, he was miffed by this show of national pride, a show of our distinct history, our distinct culture, our distinct relationship with the UK and the crown. I don't think he liked that.

And so I think he wanted to remind everybody about the power dynamic and the power imbalance between Canada and the United States. So again, like what exactly were we sold in the last election? We were sold a lot of things and a lot of it will materialize. Mark Carney will have a number of accomplishments of that. I am certain one of those accomplishments that will not materialize is. Donald Trump changing his tune on Canada because Mark Carney is the prime minister.

A man who was prime minister. And let me tell you, like, especially, especially during the days of Justin Trudeau, not a lot of love lost between me and John Kretzian. There was some personal stuff that happened with my dad that just makes me think certain things. But let me tell you, I missed, I would take that guy's moral clarity over Justin Trudeau any day of the week. And, and, and to be fair, a lot of respect from me to the prime minister, prime minister Kretzian, when my father passed away, he was very quick to come out

and tell the country how much respect he had for my dad. And in my estimation, that was him telegraphing to a certain type of Canadian and to a certain type of liberal, that he was going to lead with respect. And I think he was hoping that they would too. And by and large, I mean, it was a lot of respect was shown to my father.

And so I give a lot of credit to Prime Minister Kretschian for that. And I've expressed that a few times before and happy to do it again here. And what was concerned that he missed the throne speech because he had what's being called minor heart surgery. He was having a stent put in. So allow me to say on behalf of the Mulroney family

to the Cretien family, we wish Prime Minister Cretien a speedy recovery and hopefully a complete recovery so that he can enjoy many, many more years with his friends and family. Well, Justin Trudeau was gone, but he came back yesterday. And boy did he come back yesterday. So many questions about the shoes he was wearing. He was wearing a blue suit. And with blue suit he was wearing I think they're called gazelles. This Adidas soccer shoe, these green I think orange gazelles. I think it's like an indoor soccer shoe. Didn't match anything that he was wearing and I'm befuddled. I am befuddled by the choice. It, it was so odd and it was so wrong for the occasion that I've got questions like to me, there's two scenarios possible and possibly the two scenarios simultaneously.

One, he forgot to pack his shoes. That one doesn't necessarily hold water because I'm sure he has an assistant and also the Senate building is quite literally across the street from a mall in Ottawa called the Rideau Center. You could throw a stone and hit the Rideau Center and within a few minutes of,

few seconds of walking inside that mall, you're gonna hit a shoe store. So don't tell me that that happened, but maybe it did. The other, the other thing is he wanted people to talk about them, which if that's the case is kind of sad. Uh, he would have been talked about simply because he's the prime minister. And I don't know why he thought it was appropriate at

the throne speech inside the Senate building to, to, to, I don't know. It's not disrespectful. It's just odd that someone's going to have to explain the rationale behind that to me. I just, I genuinely don't know. That being said, we talked to my mother who is there. She said he could not have been nicer and he's always very nice. I have a lot of time for prime minister Trudeau personally, because of the kindness that he showed to my family

for so very long. I have no time for him from a political standpoint, but personally, I had a lot of time for him. And I think if we can end on, I think the point of pride for me and my whole family was my mother in attendance. It was so nice to see her there, so nice to see her back in Ottawa,

so nice to see her there. So nice to see her back in Ottawa. So nice to see her as the wonderful independent woman that she is. And she sat down with Vashi Kapulos. And here's what she had to say about the throne speech. You know, people assume that the throne speech is written by the government of the day, which it is. But I think you felt the king's presence through it all. And this is a king who understands the complexity

of the world right now. And in some ways it was an olive branch, in other ways it was a bit of a hammer. So I think it's gonna be interesting to see. But I think he's up to the challenge. And I think I'm very hopeful that we'll be able to overcome everything that's thrown at us. My dad consistently said that were it not for my mother, he would have been a very successful senior partner at

his law firm in Montreal. That's as far as he would have taken himself. He became Prime Minister because he married my mother. She was the jet fuel that got him there. And to hear her yesterday and see her yesterday fills me with so much pride. And I'm so happy to see her and I'm happy that she had a good time. I'm very happy she had a good time. The My Choice sales event is back at Nissan and the choice is yours. Choose our best selling rogue always ready for adventure or the dynamic Happy Shed a Good Time. paid maintenance hurry into your local Nissan dealer today $1,500 applies to Sentra and select rogue models when leasing or financing through NCF conditions apply see nissan.ca for details. This is the Ben Mulroney show and thank you so much for spending

a little bit of hump day with us here at the show. You know, in my haste in my excitement to talk about the throne speech I forgot. I typically like to start the day by telling you, you know, what I did after the show yesterday. And yesterday, I had the opportunity to have lunch with my very first city counselor, actually, no, no, technically not the first thing counts. I voted for. And that was Josh Matlow. He was my in my neighborhood. And he took me to he took me for all my first tour of City Hall. I got to sit in on a city council meeting and I think that's really when I got caught the bug of municipal politics thanks thanks to Josh and look I disagree with Josh on a number of policy fronts. I've always found him to be an honorable person anyway wanted to he wanted to take me to lunch and I didn't know why. And he told me that a mutual friend that we have, who was in town visiting heard me on the radio saying that I was talking trash about Josh. And I

said, that can't be I don't, I do not participate or partake in ad hominem attacks. I don't, I don't do that. I said, if I challenged you, Josh, it would have been over policy over something you might have said, or, it would have been over policy, over something you might've said, or something you might have voted on. And then we went back and forth and had a wonderful conversation about the things that bug me about this city.

And we went back and forth on a number of things. He actually thought I had some pretty good ideas. And look, so I wanna be clear. It is always my goal to, if I'm criticizing anybody, it's, it's going to be on substance. It's going to be on policy. It's going to be on decisions. It may be on when somebody says something and does something different.

And if I ever fall into the category of what sounds like I'm attacking somebody's character. It will be because it will be because in my estimation, enough facts have lined up for me to make that assessment. But I do want to ask our listeners to hold me to account. Like that's, that's what I strive for, but we're never going to always be perfect. If you ever feel that I have crossed a line, if you feel that I have taken something too far, let me know. I don't want to be somebody who lobs insults.

And so if you feel I've crossed a line, let me know. Find me on Twitter at Ben Mulroney or give us a call here at the radio station and set me straight, because I would appreciate it. Speaking of which, I think it's time to take your calls at 416-870-6400 or 1-888-225-TALK. We're talking about Sir John A. McDonald's statue that has been in a box, a protective box, if you will, at Queen's Park for five years. And they

are finally going to unbox him again. He's a firebrand. He is a controversial figure. And because of his role in the foundation of residential schools in this country. There are some people who love him and others who hate him. And, but he is being unboxed. They are going to, I think, spray him with a some sort of a spray that prevents the defacing of the statue. And there will be a guard there 24 seven to make sure that Sir John A is not defaced

or defiled or vandalized. There is however, an indigenous MPP who survived residential schools, who says that they are hurt by the unboxing of Sir John A and says, look, some bad stuff might happen to this statue. Now I'm of the opinion that our history is nuanced and complex. And for me to say he's our greatest prime minister

in no way discounts the bad decisions that were made on his watch. Because people are complex. And that's why I very much appreciate that dozens of pairs of tiny shoes have been placed at the foot of the statue in memoriam in recognition of the damage of residential schools. Now, I think adding that context,

that layer of context is appropriate. I have no problem with that. I don't know why anybody would look at that and say that's not enough. We are outraged as such that we need to break the law and we have the right to break the law and we have the right to deface this public, this statue. And my question is, he's out of the box.

If somebody comes and vandalizes them, how harsh should the penalty be? Because there should be a penalty. You don't get a pass because you don't like something. You do not get a pass because you don't like something. Protest them. It's the seat of government. Go to Queen's Park and protest the statue. That is absolutely your right.

Defacing it should come with a cost of cleaning it up and that ain't cheap. And there should be some sort of, I'm sorry, it shouldn't just be a fine. It should not just be a fine. You don't get to do that. And we as a society need to set a rule and say, look, we have to be able to disagree and we have to be able to communicate, but adding context to a statue, possibly changing whatever the inscription is to add that context. Why not? Like, why not? And if you disagree with me, I would love to hear from you. But look, like I said before, I don't want to devolve into ad hominem attacks. And if you disagree with me, let's do so respectfully, because this our history is important. It is complex. It is messy. It is emotional.

But it is not. It is not to be avoided. And it is not to but it is not, it is not to be avoided and it is not to be defaced and it is not to be torn down. We are where we are because of the people that preceded us and he is the first, he is the first Canadian and whether you like him, love him or loathe him, you cannot change that immutable fact that he was first. John, welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Hey, Ben, how are you? Great show. Thank you. Thank you very much.

You know what? I just think the charge should be the same as if you vandalize anything else, private property, a bus shelter, whatever. It just, there shouldn't be a special charge because it's a historical figure. But on a more in depth comment here, then I mean, we can try to cover up, erase whatever the fact is, what happened happened. Was it right? No. But at that time, it was what it was. And we can learn from that and not repeat our mistakes. Yeah. Oh, I think this whole thing, even with Ryerson and Dundas and all that stuff that- It's juvenile.

The erasure of history is juvenile, John. It allows us to hide from it. And I completely agree with you, but I would actually invite sort of a conversation about what should the sort the sort of the, the plaque that describes Sir John A say, maybe that's what needs to be changed. And again, like I said, perhaps if you add to it,

if you add those shoes as an actual part of the installation, maybe that's the common ground that we need. What do you think? Yeah, maybe an acknowledgement as to look, he was a, uh, our, Oh, John, you still have everything that did not, you know, should not have happened. But we're acknowledging them. And we're, we're learning from them. Yeah, actually put everything in a box. I mean, think about it, Ben. You can go down the list by Pontius Pilate. You can go I mean, Columbus

everything crazy. Well, no, I mean, look, and again, Greg Brady brings it up all the time. There is a school somewhere in the GTA named after Julie Payette, the astronaut turned governor general who had to quit because she was bullying people. That didn't happen in the 1800s. That happened just a few years ago.

So if we accept that there was a complex person, a nuanced person who was not perfect, who's got a school named after her, who is still living today, surely we can appreciate that hundreds of years ago, people had a different set of values, a different worldview, a different understanding of people. Like, come on, like we have to be able to have these conversations,

but I do appreciate your call, thank you very much. And let's invite Joanne into the conversation. Joanne, welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. Oh, I'm telling you, Ben, but I do appreciate your call. Thank you very much. And let's invite Joanne into the conversation. Joanne, welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. Oh, I'm telling you, Ben, you know what? They should be charged with this. This has got to stop.

It's just got to stop. We cannot erase history. It is so juvenile. Can we move on? I think we're just keeping all these people employed or whoever it is, a make work, make work situation, vandalize this, vandalize that. Like there are more important things in life.

People aren't surviving. Yeah, no, we've got very real problems to deal with. And, and yes, and reckoning with our past is something we as a nation have to do, but you can't reckon with a past if you erase that past. And I would much prefer having a real conversation where we can say, here's why I think he was a great prime minister. And here's why I think he was a flawed man. Like those two, those two images of Sir John A can coexist.

But unless we're willing to have the conversation, I don't want to be shouted down. And I don't want paint thrown on statues if you disagree. That's not how we engage in this country. Joanne, thank you very much for your call. Look, this is a complex part of our history. It is a messy part of our history. It is a dark part of our history, but it is our history. Do we have time for Dan? Dan, really quick, tell me what you think.

Pretty simple. If you erase history, you will forget history, you can't learn from it. And if you erase it, eventually people will forget the bad and we will repeat the bad. You have to have it there to learn from it. Yeah, it can be a warning. It can be a clarion call to say, Hey, that that was not how we do things anymore. And because of that, we, we value those people and we value those communities even more today. Thank you all for your calls. I really appreciate it. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show and a quick shout out earlier today, I was, I was locked out of the wifi here at, uh, at the radio station. And without the wifi, I cannot do my job. And a big shout out earlier today, I was locked out of the Wi Fi here at the radio station and without the Wi Fi, I cannot do my job.

And a big shout out to Andrea in the IT department, who helped me lickety split very much appreciate her time this morning. Without her, I would not I'd be up the creek without the proverbial paddle. All right, well, I want to take your calls again, because during the campaign, the election campaign, the conservatives talked a lot, actually, it's prior to the campaign, they were talking about how we're living in a terrible time of bad choices,

where people are being forced to choose between heating their home or feeding their kids, paying their rent or paying for gas. And it was a good soundbite, but now we've got data to suggest that it's absolutely true. Equifax did a study that said that more and more Canadians are missing payments on mortgages, auto loans, credit cards. The number is up to 1.4 million consumers

missing a credit payment in the first quarter of this year. That's up over 10% from the year before, but I really want to focus on young people. The report found that, um, missed auto loan payments with consumers, 35 and younger increased 30% over the year before. And so I want to hear from you at 4 1 6 8 7 0 6 400 or one triple eight two two five talk young Canadians can't buy a house, they can't get a job, and now we're making it,

they can't even make their payments on their car. Are we screwing over an entire generation for good, permanently? Like this, les jeux sont faits, as the French say. The game is done. Like, what are we giving these people? What are we giving these people? What are we giving younger people? And you know, I like to, I'm the old guy who plays the role of the guy who complains in my day, we worked hard and we it is hard to be a young Canadian today, it must

the weight that a young Canadian, the frustration that a young Canadian must feel on a daily basis, frustrated and stymied every time they try to get ahead, every time they try to pay for something, every time they want to focus on building their future, it seems like there is something, another barrier put in front of them. And to learn how many young Canadians, 35 and under, are missing something as simple and as vital in a lot of cases as a, as a, as a payment on their car. What are we doing? Four one six eight seven zero 6400 one triple eight two two five talk. You know, Mark Carney, who is our prime minister, has said that he and his government want to build an economy that works for everyone. Where

do you start with young people where it doesn't seem like anything is working for them? Like nothing. The cost of living out of control, cost of education out of control. Even if you pay for your education, there's no job waiting for you at the end of it. Even if you get a job, there's no job security. Even if you get a job, it's probably not full time. It probably doesn't pay all the bills. You're living in your parents' basement and now you can't pay for your car. Like I've got a lot of sympathy and a lot of worry for this generation. What are they to do? Where are they to go? Who do they go to for help for some sort of relief? It is it is a

sorry, sorry state of affairs that we have abandoned, forgotten about, marginalized. I'm not quite sure what the right word is as it relates to sort of the attention and care that we seem to have forgotten to pay to an entire generation. I'm not gonna make light of it. I'm not gonna joke about it.

I'm not gonna say, oh, you know, Gen Z, they don't, you know, they're so concerned with the TikTok that they don't, I'm not going to make light of it. I'm not going to joke about it. I'm not going to say, oh, do you know, Jen Z they don't, uh, you know, they're so concerned with the tick tock that they don't, uh, I'm not going to do that. This is a serious problem. And these are people who are entitled to dream big, but it seems increasingly that's all they can do dream because those dreams are, we are not in a position as a nation to allow them to manifest those dreams into a reality. Uh, who do we have here? Similia, welcome. Hi, yes. So I was just explaining to your screener that it's not just affecting young people,

it's affecting the middle-aged people as well. No, I have no doubt. Myself, I'm a nurse and I've been searching for a position. And as you can see, our healthcare system is in despair. And I've been searching online, indeed LinkedIn, every single platform for over six months. And I'm unable to land a job. So you've been, you're a trained nurse and you're looking for a job in nursing.

Yes, I am. But I thought we were experiencing a nursing shortage in Ontario. Exactly. So so so when you apply for jobs, what do they tell you? I've even gone to job fair, yeah, where you have to submit your resumes. And they say, Oh, we're looking for over 100 nurses. And when I go there, and even when I apply online, I don't even get a response in terms of, oh, we've received your application and that we'll be getting back to you.

It's dead. I don't know what's going on. I can't imagine what's going on. Samilia, I'm so sorry about that. You're such a vital, and by the way, thank you for the work that you've done as a nurse. And I hope to God you get to keep doing it I'm so sorry to hear that I wish you the very best Amelia and we're going to move on to Mary. Mary welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Hello good morning. Good morning. Aside from the fact that with the youth the unemployment rate being very high I see my

daughter's friend they're 20 years old cannot find a summer job anywhere. They were never taught management. They were never taught how to handle that. And, you know, like example, my daughter got a car loan on her own last year, 20 years old, the bank automatically gave her a pre-approved loan of credit for $20,000. Then they gave pre-approved Visa card for $5,000. She didn't have a job. And I gave her $25,000. And we taught her not to use it because you've got to pay it back. And if you don't pay it back, it's going to ruin your credit rating. But they were never taught that. Financial literacy is woefully. I mean, we're teaching kids a whole bunch of stuff in school that they maybe don't practically need.

This is something that they will, every single Canadian, every single Ontarian absolutely needs. It should be paramount in our schools. And you're right. What's a bank doing giving a pre-approved line of credit to somebody who doesn't have, can't show proof of funds, can't show proof of an ability to repay. That seems like a, it seems like a it seems like a like the creation of a

problem in real time. Thank you very much for the call. And let's welcome Mike. Mike, tell me what the problem is here. Morning, Big Ben. Morning. Good day for let's give away our credit radio. So I remember the entire 1970s. I'll start by saying that. Okay. And we were brought up, as you were by your father, to believe that if we're allowed to service or capable of servicing not necessarily what we can earn to spend on what we want and as your previous caller just said my daughter who lives in Ottawa in her early 20s with a very basic entry-level job after school um was given a credit card a lot of credit with really no income or no equity to justify it.

Now, thankfully she's a bright girl and we have a great relationship and she listened to me. She took her credit card, put it in a safe deposit box at the bank. Good for her. A little bit of money. But if she needs it, she has to think about why. That's great. She takes that extra step. Mike, well done. Like in the absence of it being taught in schools, as parents like you that are going to fill that gap. Thank you very much. Anthony, thank you so much for calling us. So you're, you think that this is a, a responsibility of the parents.

I think it's more of a cultural situation, societal situation. So we're all aware of the term failure to launch. Yeah. We've made it so, so comfortable for our kids right now. Frankly, kids are making more money than we have ever made. I think minimum wage is about 60, I understand. No, I get it, no, no, listen, two things can be true at once, Anthony. On one hand, yes, minimum wage is higher than it's ever been, but the cost of living is higher than it's ever been, rent is higher than it's ever been,

and it's harder for those people to find jobs, though there are, I think unemployment for youth in this province is somewhat 16, 17%. It's, yeah. I understand that, but we're talking about youth and kids. They're not out there paying rent right now. I think the codependency caused this issue. We're not pushing our kids out

to go in and experience the real world. Yeah, we're still bubble wrapping them. They're making enough money because kids are wearing $250 shoes right now. You're looking at Instagram. Those are all valid points. I think those are anecdotal. I was looking at a more of a societal problem, but thank you for the call. And you are listening to the Ben Mulwerney show on this Wednesday. Thank you so much for joining us. All right. The Toronto district school board is the largest school board in the country, comprising a quarter million students in around 600 schools. And the TDSB has now made a decision recognizing something called anti-Palestinian racism to discuss what this is, why it's happening,

and what the implications of this could be, is somebody who highlighted it very effectively on their Twitter, Casey Babbs, senior fellow with the Macdonald-Laurier Institute and advisor to Secure Canada. Casey, thank you so much for being here today. Thanks for having me. So look, Islamophobia is a thing.

It's a scourge. No Muslim students should be made to feel dehumanized, marginalized, or oppressed. Thanks for having me. So look, Islamophobia is a thing. It's a scourge. No Muslim students should be made to feel dehumanized, marginalized or unsafe. I am in full support of protecting marginalized students of all cultural communities. If there is a valid and recognized definition of Islamophobia. Why do we have an exceptional new category of anti-Palestinian racism? Well, that's an excellent question. I mean, you're hitting at the very heart of the issue, which is, you know, if we are to assume that Palestinians are unique from other people in the region, that would be

based on what? It would be based on nationality, not ethnicity. At least that is how most people that I've spoken with understand it. So why then would we have anti-Palestinian racism for any other reason really than to not elevate the voices of Palestinians, but to silence the voices of Jews. Okay, so Casey, walk me through that. Tell me how you get there. Absolutely.

So conceivably, and I mean, just back to the first point, we wouldn't see anti-Egyptian racism. We wouldn't see anti-Thai racism. Well, yeah, and I want to jump in because I've thought about this a lot, Casey. Like, when people talk about racism writ large, they say the problem is with the racist. It's not me, I'm not the problem.

The person being targeted is not the issue. It's the person doing the targeting. So you have to look at it from the racist point of view. I don't think I know a whole lot of racists, but if I did, I would humbly suggest that they're not a group of people prone to nuance. If they don't like a Brown person, they don't like all Brown people. They don't care much where, if they come from this region or that region.

Yeah, I think you're, you're right on the money there. And, and to that point as well, Ben, you know, there's, there's no clear data on this, right? There's no stats can clear data that says, you know, hate crimes targeting Palestinian Canadians, which by the way, who is considered Palestinian? According to UNRWA, you know, generation after generation after generation of individuals who could potentially tether their roots back to the region, they're considered Palestinian refugees. So are they here having never stepped foot in the region? Are they Palestinian? I mean, we get into all of these sort

of theoretical scenarios. The issue in terms of the suppression of Jewish life and the potential for this is that conceivably we could be in a situation where you know somebody wearing a kippah, somebody with an Israeli flag pin on their backpack, somebody with a Star of David out, somebody, a student could say, hey that makes me uncomfortable, I'm Palestinian. Hey, there's no such thing as Israel or Israel is an illegitimate state. The Jewish state is only in existence because of its subjugation of my people. That could very well turn into a situation where you have a teacher or a school principal or superintendent saying,

yeah, we've got to stop with this. Keep the Judaic symbols away. Keep, you know, all of that sort of thing. So it's a very dangerous situation. So Casey, let's get into, how did the TDSB come to this conclusion? Because this is coming on the heels of us learning that the erasure of Sir John A's name on a number of schools happened without the consultation of historians, for example.

So what sort of work was done in anticipation in the lead up that led them to adopting this position? Well, it's not rooted in anything, frankly, Ben. It's not rooted in data. It's not rooted in empirical research. This is a campaign that has been very strategically and aggressively pushed down the throats of individuals on the TDSB.

And they voted on this on May 21st. And I wanna tell you something else, Ben. I've been speaking with parents who have children in schools in the Toronto District School Board, Jews and non-Jews alike, and so many of them are appalled, not just by what they're seeing, but the sort of duplicity, the double standards. And an example of this is that Ainsworth Morgan,

the TDSB superintendent of education was offered, and an invite was extended to bring students to the Nova exhibit, which I believe that you've probably been to been- Not yet, I'm actually going this weekend. There you go. And the superintendent came back, the superintendent of education came back and said, can't do

it. It's too political. The Israeli Palestinian conflict quote is a deeply divisive and complex to your political issue. And yet it's not too political. It's not too controversial. It's not too hot to now make it to now recognize anti-Palestinian racism as a new and distinct form of racism. Well, look, my kids are in the TDSB

and I don't remember getting an email or a letter suggesting this was on the docket. I may have wanted to show up and have my voice heard on something like this. I'm sure there are a number of parents who would have liked to have had this open dialogue with them and yet it seems that they are pursuing a political agenda driven by their own motivations and parents be damned. They are there to serve parents and students and simply saying something

is what it is doesn't make it so. And this is something that should have happened in bright daylight and it doesn't feel like it did. Absolutely. And for me at that, the root of this is that so much of Palestinianism and Palestinian identity is actually, and this is a, it's a hard truth. It will make people uncomfortable hearing this, it's rooted not in the betterment, in the improvement of Palestinian lives and in Palestinian identity. So much of it is rooted in the suppression and the erasure

of Jewish presence in the land, in the region. And so with that being said, if we start using the term anti-Palestinian racism, we seriously risk conflating Palestinian identity and what should be the legitimate pursuit of Palestinian rights and the improvement of life of Palestinians with opposition to the only Jewish state. So, you know, we could be defining anti-Zionism as anti-racism. And if we get into that space, which we are heading towards rather quickly, it's going to be a very, very dangerous situation for Jews and non-Jews in the country. I just struggle to see how this does anything but, but complicate the lives of, of students across the TDSB. This is a political landmine that didn't need

to be deposited into the 600 schools of the TDSB. I mean, most of these kids, whatever their community they come from, whatever religion, they just wanna go to school and learn and to be turned into a political football like this, is just, it's a circus. And these and these we don't I'm telling you like the kids that my kids age at school, they just want to go to school and learn.

Absolutely. Well, that's it. And I mean, that's sort of, you know, I teach at a university, right? I see the students who are now the product of a lot of these school boards. The learning isn't what it used to be in some respects. Unfortunately, as well, I worry about other Arab immigrants, first generation, second generation, and so on who are going, well, I love these. I've experienced them in bigotry. I'm from Syria. We got to leave it there, but I thank you for laying it out for us. I appreciate it. Absolutely, thanks, man. To celebrate the Days of Our Lives 60th anniversary,

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