The Ben Mulroney Show - Our political panel weighs in on civil servants, Saab and... soccer?

Episode Date: November 19, 2025

Guest: Andy Gibbons, Principal at Walgate advisory .  Former vp WestJet Guest: Regan Watts, Founder Fratton Park Inc., former Senior aide to minister of finance Jim Flaherty If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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for lease rates from 1.99% for 24 months on select models and get great value that, you guessed it, come standard. Conditions apply. See dealer for details. Hey, uh, seriously, can I get one? You are listening. It's the middle of the week. It's Wednesday. It's time for this week in politics, the midweek panel. And of course, our all-stars are with us. Andy Gibbons and Regan Watts. Andy is the principal at Walgate Advisory, former VP at West Jed. And Regan is a founder of Fratton Park. And he used to work with the finance minister Jim Flaherty. Gentlemen, welcome. Migwitch, good morning, Ben. All right, Regan, before we get into any politics, I got to ask you about this Alfie Joe. Jones story because we have a new member of Team Canada for the World Cup.

He was born in Bristol, but he was eligible for Canadian citizenship because of one of his grandparents, who was born in Alberta. And he helped us win the match yesterday, two nothing over Venezuela, so well done. But for some reason, after the match, Jesse Marsh, the coach, said this. Christiana Fox and Regan wants both put a lot into this and helped us get this across the line. What'd you do, Regan? Well, Ben, I appreciate the opportunity for free advertising in my business. I work with Soccer Canada, or Canada soccer, pardon me on a number of fronts. And I was asked to assist in ensuring that our newest Canadian could get his citizenship time

in time to play against the Venezuelans last night. I did offer to Jesse Marsh that I'd be happy to play at centerback in his place. And Canada did have a gold drought going into last night, and I'm actually a striker, but I was asked to help with a citizenship file, and I was happy to do it. Alfie's a wonderful guy, as is Coach Marsh, and, you know, World Cup fever is coming, and Canada needs the best players it can find on the pitch, and last night was a good result. and I'm confident in saying the best is yet to come for team Canada. Well, well done, Regan.

I think every soccer fan in this country owes you a debt of gratitude. Andy Gibbons, did you do anything remotely as impressive as this this week? No, I don't know, I don't know Jesse Marsh, but I do know he has an accurate scouting report on Regan. So that bodes well for our national team. Nothing as incredible as this Venezuelan coup for Regan Watts this week. All right, well, let's go into the... here and now and the politics and the numbers. And we all love numbers. And we just, the numbers are now

officially out. A 9% jump in the bureaucracy over last year. 99,000 more civil servants today than when Justin Trudeau took office. 99. That's a full Gretzky. It's a full Gretzky. Now, for context, there were about 257,000 bureaucrats in 2015. And we added 99,000 more since then. Now, I know we're trying to, we're trying to trim that down by attrition and in the least painful way possible. Nobody believes that the bureaucracy needs to be this big. Do they? We'll start with you, Andy. Yeah, you know, some senior officials in Ottawa, Ben, say, you know, the public service is run by about 500 people.

This is what they sort of say behind closed doors. The more amazing stat for me is that outsourcing doubled and went up a lot. 11% last year. So it's not like one went up because you're training and you're building capacity and all of these legitimate reasons for the growth. It's that it grew, but also outsourcing grew. So it's a double win and it's an absolute incomprehensible one too. And the other point is like if you're if you're if you're a Carney cabinet minister and you sat on your hands while all this happened, it must be really weird to watch your boss pull out at least a small hatchet, not a chainsaw, but a small hatchet and start to trim these shrubs that you planted,

you watered, you supported. It's just, it's an interesting thing to me, but this outsourcing 11%, that's just year over year, but outsourcing been doubled since Trudeau took power. It's incomprehensible. Yeah, Regan, the, the rise in the bureaucracy is, is one thing. But the fact that there was also this commensurate rise in using of consultants, it just boggles the mind. How big does government need to get? Look, I don't think there's anybody in the country who can say that the doubling of our public service or the doubling of consultants has resulted in a two-x improvement in public services, right?

Like, I think that's just a fact. The government is worse at customer service for the things that Canadians and Canadian businesses and others rely on than they've ever been. I will say a couple things. One, with respect to public servants, the reductions in the public service, I think they are necessary. You know, it does, you know, 99,000 more public service just goes to show just how much if it was a long national nightmare known under, known as Justin Trudeau and how poorly his government was managed by he and Katie Telford and the rest of that clown show. With respect to consultants, though, and I, and I will waive the fight a little bit here, which is that there is a role.

for consultants to support the government of Canada in a variety of ways. Where there were problems and legitimate problems is when we had outsourcing done, for example, on things like a RiveCan, where a consulting firm took 30 cents on the dollar for the purposes of basically hiring programmers to work with CBSA and public safety to build that app. That is incomprehensible and unacceptable, but as anybody in the private sector knows, getting consultants and consulting to help you think through issues in the case of the government, the government, whether it's a policy or a program or service design, is totally legitimate. It's the outsourcing of bodies and fingers on keyboards where there has been

a real egregious flow of money spent. And rightfully so, Parliament has looked into this and you're seeing a change in how government operates, particularly on the IT side. All right, well, we're going to start this next topic in this segment, but I'm sure it's going to carry on into the next. I don't think anybody saw what we witnessed yesterday in Ottawa, which was sort of this full court press charm offensive by the Swedes trying to get us to work with them and the benefit to Canada could be as high as 10,000 jobs. We were talking about a little bit earlier in the show today,

but is this all good news or is this something else? Andy, you start. I think it, I was very impressed. I mean, the only thing the Swedish delegation didn't do is march down Spark Street with Daniel Alpherson, Jersey's on. I mean, they were perfectly on point. They had a very clear message. And the media in our country has written these glowing articles

about these two Swedish products from Saab and how much benefit it'll have for Canada. And just by the way, Ben, how great is it to have a foreign country come to our country and say good things about us and say, we'd like your business and like your money and your maple syrup's great and all. It was just a great week for all of that. I thought it was so well done. I don't follow defense procurement. but I thought they had a great week

and it was also a sign we talked about this on the show that the Carney government at least in the defense industry corners of the world is being taken seriously their commitments are being taken seriously and that matters

and is good for Canada. Regan was this a case of the Swedes reading the tea leaves and seeing that all is not right between Canada and the US and they might be able to sort of slide in there and become our new best friend? Well look so I think it's

Certainly the Swedish government is a shrewd operator. And I agree with all of what Andy just said, although the one exception I would make is that if they were doing it properly, they'd wear a Matt Sundin jersey and not a Daniel Alpherson, Jersey, in Ottawa. The fact is Canada is at an interesting inflection point with respect to its global relationships. They would have seen the Swedes and noticed the bifurcation of Canada's relationship with the United States. and looking for opportunity.

The fact that Melanie Jolie is reading talking points that's talking about the number of jobs that the Swedish government and Saab are preparing to commit to Canada is an extraordinary achievement. I can't remember the last time a federal minister has been repeating talking points from a country or a company like that.

And I think it just goes to show that the Swedes were very well prepared. Look, we've got a lot in common with the Swedish people. We're both Nordic countries. We share similar climate, similar outlooks, social services, social programs. There's a lot to like about Sweden, and I am a fan.

I do think, though, and I think this is a point that should be made for your listeners, I think this is also a reflection of the Prime Minister and his ability to reach out across continents to try and generate interest in the country. You know, I think it was you, Ben, who gave him a lot of heartache and a bit of a hard time while some of us were purring about his trip to Europe. Why is he going to Europe? Why is he talking with these people? Well, this is the kind of product, the visit that we had this week,

where we have another country and serious executives and Saab is a serious company and they make great products to come to Canada and with the king and the queen ain't no joke no listen

and you're absolutely right you know maybe I was wrong and I take your point and you're not getting me to purr but I may back down a little bit we're going to take a quick break and when we come back

we're going to be talking about could things get any worse for Canada Post don't go anywhere this is the Ben Mulrooney show Well, at the top of the second segment of this week in politics, the Wednesday edition, we do something. We don't do on any other panel. It's time for the political play of the week.

Regan and Andy, your political play of the week better be spectacular. All right, there you go. You heard it from Mr. Voiceman. He wants it to be spectacular. Regan go first. So my political play of the week, and it'll be a change this week, will be a negative or a bad play.

And that is the Conservative Party of Canada, and in particular, Andrew Shear and Scott Reed, for how they handled the budget vote and the House of Commons this week. You know, I said on the show several weeks ago and maintained that the budget was going to pass and that Parliament would continue. And it turns out I was right.

But the behavior of Andrew Shear, in particular, hiding behind the curtain in the House of Commons while votes are being counted and then running into his seat and saying, oh, my app wasn't working and I'd like to call my vote. I mean, what a donkey. So listen, for our listeners who don't know, give us, like, drill down on that. What does that mean? What he did? What does that, what do you infer from it? So the conservatives made this great, and Mr. Palli had made this great point of saying, oh, we're going to vote against the budget and an election be damned.

And then what they actually did was they got a little too cute by half and held some votes back to ensure that the budget passed. I think the Conservative Party behaved like adults and came out and said, look, Canadians aren't ready for an election, but we're going to vote against the budget, but we're going to hold enough members back so that the budget passes. People, reasonable people would go, okay, well, that makes sense. Well, Don Davy said that, the interim leader of the NDP, and I gave him kudos. I said what he said, I find no fault in what he said. Yeah, and when I speak to my friends in Omimi, Ontario, and they just shake their head, about what the Conservative Party has done, it comes down to the fact that Andrew Shear hid behind a curtain because the conservatives wanted to make sure that they could make their political point

without actually risking an election. To drill down into it, Ben, you have to be in the House of Commons when a vote is called and the doors are shut after the bells stop ringing in the House of Commons and if you're not inside the chamber, you can't vote. So Cheer was clearly in the chamber, he and Scott Reed, and they hit behind this curtain waiting to see how many votes for counted. And when it became clear the budget was going to pass, that profile and courage, and I never expected Andrew Shearer to be a fan of John F. Kennedy, but he took a page out of the Profiles Encourage book and ran to the front seat of the conservative benches and said, oh, my app wasn't working. I need to vote, no. And I just look at that and go, this continues

to show an ins seriousness that in a serious time, a juxtaposition, the conservatives and how they postured on the vote with what we were just talking about in terms of liberal government and the prime ministerial ministry and initially engaging with the Swedish delegation that came to Canada. And it's, you know, it's a, it's a really bad problem for the conservatives and a bad look. All right. Well, I think you laid out your case pretty well there. Andy, your turn. What's the political play of the week as you see it? Well, first, as an honorable mention to Don Davies, it was refreshing to listen to an NDP leader this week, not be a total ridiculous clown car of incoherence.

No, he made his, he made his case and I was like, I subscribe to this. I said it on the show yesterday. And what do people appreciate now, some authenticity and honesty? We don't like it, but we're not going to force an election. We're being responsive and responsible. Yeah. Great. Good. My play of the week goes to the Minister of National Defense in the Kearney government, David McGinty.

And he gets the play of the week because I think we talked about earlier in the show, Ben, if you accept the premise that Canada is rebuilding its global standing, diplomatically, militarily, et cetera, obviously the work that he has done globally, Canada now has some emerging credibility in a space where, whether you're Barack Obama, Joe Biden, senator, whoever, everyone has lambasted and ridiculed Canada as being a non-contributor and an unsurious player in this space. And it's clear based on his work and the work of the Carney government that this week, at least that category of rebuilding Canada's global standing,

is on the right track. And since he's been appointed, he was appointed by Trudeau in the last hours of the national nightmare, He has been steady, competent, no mistakes, credibility, sincere, and he deserves credit for that. And it's not talked about it because it's not day-to-day intrigue. But in that obligation Canada has to the world, it's on the right track and he deserves some credit. Play the week to David McGint. I have, Regan, I have given full-throated endorsement to the Carney government on how they're handling the military file. I think they're doing a great job and they're making a lot of people who want the pride that they feel in Canada.

reflected in our how we treat our military. I think he's doing just fine on that front. All right. Let's move on to, listen, it's not all roses in Ottawa. Canada Post is in dire, dire straits. We're not even at the end of the year. And there are already a billion dollars in the hole. This is shaping up to be the worst year ever for Canada Post.

And like, I don't know if you can take parts of this and salvage. I have no idea what you do with this. Now, Andy, you come from a world like the airlines. That was very difficult to launch an airline, very difficult to turn a profit on an airline. You look at this and how would you turn around and fix this? Well, I don't think it is fixable. And Minister Lightbound finally said this. But I think, Ben, there's two things here for me.

One, everyone knows it has been unfixable. some time and they've been afraid to make tough decisions. You know, look at Air Canada or West Shet, say what you want about airlines. They make tough decisions when they need to make tough decisions. They have their shareholders and their responsibilities. But Canada Post seems to have really skirted all business accountability. And again, the Trudeau government just whistled by all of these problems. So now they're bigger and bigger. Tail is old as time. I think the emerging story here, Ben, is how public sector unions are going to conduct themselves over the next few years when the writing is on the wall. Tough decisions will be made. The public interest

must be served. And these positions, these old positions and old ways that the public sector unions take aren't going to work. Canadians won't have it. And they have a government that won't have it either. And if I was in a public sector union, I would be giving serious consideration to how I'm going to spend the next few years positioning in these negotiations and whether or not I'm going to be a real partner with the government on the things they need to do to turn this country around or I'm going to do old things in old ways. I think that's something you really need to grapple with. Yeah, Regan, what do you make of this?

And I find it really interesting that we are at this point with a lot of these public sector unions. And we have a liberal government that is going to be making a lot of these tough decisions. You expect this sort of thing on the docket for conservatives, but there are some really tough choices that are going to have to be made and made by a liberal government. Canada Post for everybody to level set here is a functionally bankrupt organization. Their expenses exceed their ability to repay their debts and their revenues are going down, not up. You asked about what is fixable.

I think the only piece of Canada Post that is salvageable is their corporate interest in pure later. The rest of it is a hot mess. I realize I only have 30 seconds, so I'll be quick. What I would do, Ben, is I would shut down all mail delivery door to door across the country. I would move to community mailboxes tonight, and I would maintain some, and I'd figure out some way to do rural service delivery for those who live in rural parts of Canada because we're a big country, and they're entitled to receive their mail too. I noted that both the minister and Andy mentioned these comments, but there's other comments coming out of Canada post around thousands of job losses. Those are coming.

But the one thing, and we shouldn't feel too badly for postal workers, is their pensions are protected because they are federal pensioners. And so, while there may be some people who have to retire sooner or take a new job, I don't have a ton of sympathy, if only because COPW, which is their union representation, might be the most militant union representation in all of Canada. And they have let their workers down. It is an absolute disgrace what COPW has done over the last 15 years in leading these workers and this organization and taxpayers down the garden path. I think Andy said it well. Like companies like airlines, they have to make really tough decisions in real time. And it feels like these unions have at least been partially responsible for where we find ourselves today

because they haven't been active in helping make and take those difficult decisions over the course of over the course of over a decade. And so now we find ourselves where we are. And it is what it is. It's a very, very good point that you may. made there, Andy. Hey, Regan, thank you very much for being here. And thank you for what you did for the soccer team. And Andy, maybe next week you could come having, you know, accomplish something on the level of what Regan did for the country. Thank you. Thanks, guys. Really appreciate it. Enjoy the rest of your week.

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