The Ben Mulroney Show - Quebec needs to get off the fence and unlock the energy sector

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

Guests and Topics: -Quebec open to rekindled GNL Québec gas facility project amid U.S. tariff threats with Guest: Dan McTeague - Former Liberal MP and President of Canadians For Affordable Energy -Alcohol-related deaths rose 18 per cent during pandemic: report with Guest: Dr. Oren Amitay, Psychologist -“Guaranteed Jobs” That Don’t Exist: The Dark World of Immigration Consultants with Guest: Adnan R. Khan, Writer, author of this Article in The Walrus If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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and since we were spared the brunt of those 25% tariffs just a few days ago, a reprieve of 30 days or so, there's been a conversation about Canadian reliance on the US market on a number of files. And the Calgary Herald is asking the question, is this a moment or a movement as Canadian support for C2C pipelines nears 80%? There's a new poll that says that nearly 80% of Canadians support the massive expansion of our pipelines across this country. Our ability to get our natural resources to markets beyond the United States is booming.

And the question is, is it something that is booming temporarily because Donald Trump is there or is this finally a wake up call that Canadians are answering the clarion call for us as a nation to develop far beyond what we've previously been. To discuss this and another a number of issues is Dan McTagg, former Liberal MP and president of Canadians for Affordable Energy. Dan, when you hear what I just told you about the Canadian, the Calgary Herald and the poll, are you surprised? No. And I think this is the awakening has some of us have been hoping for for several years after we have a country and a really a philosophy, perhaps a narrative that has always been very negative on our resources, especially negative, negative towards oil and gas. And I make no,

no, no bones to this. I mean, I'm not a big fan of the industry, they're not a big fan of mine when I predict prices that cost them money every day. But beyond that I recognize that our bread is very much buttered by being able to sell our resources internationally. And when you have 12 countries, some of our best trading partners beyond the United States knocking on our door saying, listen, can you get us some more oil and gas? We desperately need it. We'd rather get it from you than some of these clowns that are out there and some of these shady types.

And we say, no, there's no business case, but we can have hydrogen, which of course is a project that has completely fallen to pieces in Stephenville, Newfoundland. You sort of have to ask yourself, what would it take? And this is, I think, the moment where, you know, there's a major silver lining out of what Donald Trump has done to Canada.

Yeah, well, the Calgary Herald points out that there's a major silver lining out of what Donald Trump has done to Canada. Yeah. Well, the Calgary Herald points out that there was a quote from one of our leaders that said, if you're not buying oil and gas from Canada and British Columbia, the alternative is Venezuela. We believe we are a friend and an ally of the United States. Now, six weeks ago, you would have expected something like that to come from Pierre Poliev or Danielle Smith. It came from David Eby, the NDP premier of British Columbia. And if that doesn't signal a title change in attitude in this country, I don't know what does. Well, that's a province that spent forces spent 30 filling $34 billion to build a pipeline

that was going to be built by Kinder Morgan. And I too had a lot of interviews and engagements with your sister stations out there and with many who thought it was a great idea to use every tool, the toolbox to block pipelines. I don't think Canadians quite see it that way now and I think the change is very much welcome, not because we don't need to have that sort of sense of responsibility, but if we don't do it, someone else who is not as advanced as we are, not willing to put our credentials on the line when it comes to creating better energy will likely be the folks that give this stuff to the world.

Do we want Iran, Russia, Venezuela and others to be doing that? I don't think so. So this is great. And what's happening in Quebec, what's happening in British Columbia, I think is a signal change that allows us now to recognize, above all, then, we now have a circumstance where the energy sector can perhaps return those to the days of better investments and maybe derive more revenues to pay for the pensions and hospitals that are in desperate need in this country. Well, let's let's talk about Quebec for a moment, because for for a long time, they were the sticky wicket. They refused to authorize a natural gas pipeline

through Quebec, rather a proposed liquefaction facility and export terminal in 2021. And Ottawa followed suit in 2022. And they both cited environmental and other concerns. And, and now it looks like they may they may be willing to take a second look at those projects. Well, let's look what's happened to the 18 projects across Canada, not just in Quebec where there was one or two, but this was a big one that have gone nowhere or very little and we're only just starting them. In the meantime, the United

States said if you don't want them, we'll be glad to buy your natural gas Canada for three bucks, you know, a cubic foot meter and we'll buy for three bucks cubic foot meter. And we'll buy it for three bucks, but we'll sell it to liquefied to Europeans for 13, $14. So no wonder the Americans are doing so well. They've gone from four to seven to 14 plants that are supplying LNG to the rest of the world. Why Canada is sitting back trying to pretend

that the international boy scouts and girl guys when it comes to climate and only denying ourselves our opportunity to use these things. In Quebec's case, liquefaction for export is a great opportunity, but it's also a great opportunity for Quebec itself. This is a province that imports $2 billion worth of natural gas in the United States every single year. Why not use the natural gas you have in your ground? That's another issue that I think should also

be tapped because Quebec's got enough reserves for 40 to 50 years have ever tied into it. And it would reduce the carbon footprint of the stuff that's importing both from the United States or from Western Canada. And then I like to say that there there is a there's an argument for the left to be made for massive expansion of these projects. Because if you believe in the social safety net of the NDP and the left wing of the Liberal Party, then you have to believe that we need to pay for it.

And this is the way to pay for that leftist dream of Canada, if you will. $62 billion in national deficit is a very scary circumstance. You want to pay for dental care and pharmacare and care for the you want to pay for all that stuff that you've already promised because we know that you've, we know that you have the big giant checks that you've written that nobody can cash you want people to be able to cash those, you got to pay for them. And this is how you pay for them.

Well, that's right. We're a resource based economy. We have plenty of reserves in the world. It's not that we should be irresponsible. Quite the contrary, we've been anything but but to sort of play this game of saying, yeah, we should deny ourselves and in the world. It's not that we should be irresponsible. Quite to the contrary, we've been anything but. But to sort of play this game of saying, yeah, we should deny ourselves and deny the world when so many people come asking for, because they want Canadian products versus others, puts us in a very vulnerable position. And yeah, we may dislike Orange Man in the South, but he's actually opened us to the reality that

we have something the world desperately needs, and that Canadians, a minority of them have had their time over the past 10 years to block everything. It's time for them to go pack up, let another, you know, let another era begin to reign, one in which Canadians can get their energy products to market and Canadians can prosper once again. Dan McTag, appreciate your time, appreciate your insights. It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me, Ben. Bye bye. So on top of the rise in support for pipelines, there has been a steady explosion. It's not steady. It's just an explosion of Canadian pride in the wake of Trump's tariff threats, especially in Quebec. Between December and February, the share of Quebecers, who said they were very proud or proud to be Canadians increased 13 points from 45% to 58%

That is according to an Angus Reid poll conducted online. Now in Quebec, I expect that number to fluctuate. They have, I don't want to say dueling alliances, but their heart is in two different places. They are Quebecers first in a lot of cases. So then you have to ask yourself, how much are they Canadian? And this is something that has made them feel more pride in Canada. But elsewhere across Canada,

I said this yesterday and I think it bears repeating, my pride in Canada has not changed one bit since Donald Trump levied those threats. And I gotta ask you why yours has? Why are you more proud today? Pride in Canada has not changed one bit since Donald Trump levied those threats. And I got to ask you why yours has. Why are you more proud today? Nothing on the ground has changed in Canada. Nothing about Canada has changed.

So what has made you more proud? Because if you are more proud because Donald Trump angered you, then you're not more proud in Canada. You're simply mad at an external force. That's not pride in Canada. That's not patriotism. That's nationalism. And you got to be very careful about those things. Because if you are ascribing patriotism to nationalism, then you don't understand what it means to be proud in Canada. You don't know why, what makes this place great. And you're probably then more susceptible to politicians

playing on that, preying on that. So yes, it's great that we're all rowing in the same direction right now. Let's take advantage of that to do the things we need to do to make ourselves a serious country. But booing the American national anthem at a hockey game is not the sign of somebody who's proud to be Canadian. It's somebody who's mad at Donald Trump.

And those two things are not the same. They can overlap, but they are absolutely not the same thing. To be proud in Canada is to be proud of our history, is to be proud of our institutions, it is to be proud of our values. And it's to know those values, and to know why you're proud in them.

Figure out what it is about Canada that makes you proud and realize that should not be changing. Because Canada in that sense has not changed and I would urge you if you feel an anger towards America, that is not pride in Canada. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show on the chorus radio network. The impact of the pandemic will not truly be understood or felt until well for years to come. We know about the economic impact, we know about job losses, we know about school closures. But the impact of those things will not

be felt or understood for years to come. For example, on our kids, we still don't understand what shutting down schools for extended periods of time will have on their long-term ability to form relationships, to develop intimate partners, to communicate, to form friendships, to form bonds, to work as a team, to work in collaboration, to disassociate from their screens, which have become ubiquitous in their lives. That's something we're not going to understand for years to come. And then the impact

of that new paradigm on society when they become the leaders of tomorrow. So that's just one of many questions about the impact of the pandemic. What about alcohol? What about the impact of alcohol on our lives? It became central to a lot of us for a period. It became pretty important to me, not gonna lie. You'll remember that in the province of Ontario, as well as other parts of Canada, we opened up,

we liberalized the sale of alcohol, making it easier for people to have it delivered to their homes. And so when I read in a new report that alcohol-related deaths during the pandemic rose 18% during the pandemic, I think to myself, that's an alarming number, but it's probably scratching the surface of a larger problem that we won't fully appreciate the implications of for years to come. So someone with a great depth of knowledge on this subject is Dr. Orin Amite, a psychologist who has a lot of

stories about patients during the pandemic and their relationship with alcohol. Dr. welcome to the show. Thank you, Ben. So you hear 18% and what do you think? Well, I mean, I'm always cautious about numbers because there are so many different factors. We have to be careful about correlation versus causation, but it does ring true. Whether it's direct impacts on health, whether it's correlated with distress,

which can then subsequently lead to people doing other, let's say self-harming behaviors like the ultimate one, which is suicide. Unfortunately, it's not surprising. And it aligns with what I've heard from so many patients. Right, the knock on effects of alcohol abuse while you're in a confined space with people where pressure is building up.

I know that we heard stories of domestic abuse, domestic violence and death at the hands of a domestic partner. All of those went up during the pandemic. But again, those things happen and then we have to deal with the consequences. So what are the consequences of a number like alcohol-related deaths rising 18% during the pandemic?

Well, actually, even before we go to the consequences, let's look at one more factor, which was as they were making alcohol more accessible during the pandemic, they were making it impossible for people to have in person meetings for, you know, let's say, substance abuse. So that those were support groups, those were communities, those were face to face ways for people to, you know, to make positive change in their life. And they were denied that. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. So I hadn't even thought of that. Yeah. So, I mean, so there are so many consequences to think about. And so, uh, some people, you know, made it through pretty well. I adapted quite well, um, you know, through the pandemic, but that's who I am. Um, but many others had a really hard time adjusting and they're still, I mean, they still tell me to this day that, you know, whether even just being in close spaces, not being able to go out, so many couples, whether it led to

domestic violence or simply a deterioration in the relationship, people felt isolated from others and they felt too confined to the people closest to them, whether it's, you know, a romantic partner, a family and so on. So there are so many, you know, uh, let's say, I'm going to say predictable consequences for the, uh, you know, of the decisions that were made during the pandemic. And I know at the beginning, it was a fog of war. It was so difficult. I don't begrudge anybody at the beginning, um, you know, who tried to do the right thing. Um, but you know, we didn't know what we didn't know.

We didn't know exactly, But as we started seeing the consequence and we started hearing people coming out and saying, look, these are some of these problems. And you mentioned so many of them. We didn't see people course correcting. We saw people adhering to an ideological position that was not based on science, but again, rather it was based on ideology.

I'm speaking with Dr. Orin Amate, psychologist. We're talking about a report that suggests that alcohol-related deaths rose 18% during the pandemic and the knock-on effects of something like that. So let's talk about that now, doctor. Let's talk about the impact of a huge uptick in alcohol-related deaths. What does that signal for us moving forward?

Well, it signals that a lot of people started developing some really maladaptive coping strategies. signal for us moving forward? Well, it signals that a lot of people started developing some really maladaptive coping strategies. Okay, they were relying on whether it was alcohol or weed or harder drugs, rather than finding better ways to help themselves. And once you succumb to those kinds of coping strategies, it can be very hard to find the strength, the courage, the resilience to, you know, to find better ways to, to

cope. So that's one of the knock-on effect that people started internalizing these really bad ways of coping with the stress and distress and anxiety and frustrations. And you know, the more, you know, in the last couple of years, even though we came out of the pandemic, people came out saying, well, what have we entered now? Okay. And with all the uncertainty and so on. So once again, a lot of people found it way too easy to just resort to the, you Okay, and with all the uncertainty and so on. So once again, a lot of people found it way too easy to just resort to the, you know, the simple solution, which is not a good solution,

which is alcohol or I wanna keep emphasizing other drugs as well. Marijuana use, I think increased dramatically. I heard so many, maybe more than alcohol, even though it didn't have the same health effects. Many people said that they found themselves smoking far more weed than they ever had. Yeah. And, you know, when all of this happens in your home, right, you're living your life, you develop these routines, and, and the booze is delivered to your door, and then you take it to your kitchen, and you, you make a drink, and then you take it to your couch and you do this over and over ad infinitum. And then you try to change that,

you try to change that dynamic within, in the same home that you've been living in. To me, it's almost an impossible routine to break because we are creatures of habit. And you're not able to go out and get the help that you need. And then your home, it triggers you. You come home from a really tough work week long after the pandemic is done,

and you're back in that same routine. To me, it feels like a really difficult chain of events to break. Well, you just described conditioning, and that's really what it is. We, like all other animals, we can condition ourselves to certain behaviors and routines and that's what you just said, the familiar becomes comfortable and it becomes ingrained in us and whether it's alcohol or weed, it might be, you might say, okay, I'll have one

with dinner or after dinner or before bed, but then it becomes earlier and earlier and earlier and like you said, yes, the home itself becomes the trigger for this behavior. And the other thing is tied to that, and you alluded to it, is within the home, we're isolating more and more. And even if it's two or three people, like, you know, or a partner,

you may be together, but you're also finding yourself isolated from other people. And right, and that social isolation, we know has so many negative impacts on our psychological. Oh yeah, I mean, I remember having those thoughts that you just described. I was like, yeah, sure.

At first it was a joke. It's five o'clock somewhere and I'll have a cocktail. But at one point I remember saying to myself, you know, we're never getting out of this house. What does it matter if I live my healthiest life? Like, what does it honestly matter? And of course I wasn't thinking, well, I gotta be here for my kids

and I gotta be here for my wife and I gotta be here for the dog and I gotta be here. Like those, at one point those thoughts just stopped entering my mind because I felt we are never getting out of this house. So I might as well search out that endorphin rush or whatever it is that alcohol provides because it's just gonna make the time pass a little more, it'll be a

little more friendly around here. And that's it again. So so most people aren't going to fortunately, they're not going to die because of alcohol, but it does have so many impacts on their physical and their mental health. And one of those is this almost complacency, this apathy, this this lack of drive. And that's so you know, that's what I've seen from so many people. They had a hard time kickstarting themselves. So yes, the world opened up again, and people stumbled out maybe, but they don't you know, they didn't hit the

ground running. Some people did, but a lot of people did not. And they're still feeling that to this day. Dr. in about 40 seconds, I'd like to end this on a positive note, if anything that we've said resonates with our listeners, what should they do? They should be honest with themselves. They should say, you know, how can I change the behaviors that any condition response can be reconditioned? So find healthy supports, find people who, you know, who don't have those same behaviors.

I try to associate with them whether, you know, preferably in person, if you have to start online, do that and recognize alcohol for what it is. It is a poison. I mean, for being here and, you know, honest conversation, you know, we all have tough times and we got to be honest about them. So I thank you very much. Thank you. I always appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. We talk a lot about the immigration crisis in this country. And I think that's a very important part of our lives. And I think that's a very important part of our lives. And I think that's a very important part of our lives. And I thank you very much. Thank you. I always appreciate the opportunity to speak with you.

We talk a lot about the immigration crisis in this country. And sometimes we stop short in talking about the issues that plague the country. We lay the blame squarely at the feet of the federal government that opened up the taps brought in more people than we could handle more people than we could in more people than we could handle, more people than we could house, more people than we could give health care or education to. And then we sort of end the conversation there. But there is a great piece in The Walrus that talks about sort of all of the organizations that have been built up in and around this new system that have been bilking people of millions of dollars and promising jobs that do not exist. And it's essentially a takedown of the dark world of immigration consultants. And I just want to read you a piece of this right off the top of the article. Since the early 2000s, after Canadian officials

expanded the temporary foreign workers program to meet the growing demand for lower wage labor, the numbers have exploded. The numbers of these consultants have exploded. From 2000 to 2022, temporary foreign workers with work permits in Canada, including those under the TFWP, jumped from 111,000 to over a million. What Employment and Social Development Canada once called the last and limited resort to fill jobs lacking qualified Canadians has become a core strategy around which many companies are built.

So to talk about these companies and to bring us up to speed on this very dark world that not a lot of people know about. I am joined now by the author Adnan R. Khar, the writer of the article in The Walrus. Adnan, thank you so much for being here. Hi, Ben. Nice to be here.

Yeah. So I didn't know about how nefarious and how serpentine these organizations are, they're quite insidious. Yeah, they are. Let me just make a little correction or the number of actual immigration consultants in Canada is somewhere in the range of 12,000 to 13,000. So it's actually temporary workers that's spiked up to about a million.

Yeah, that's spiked up to about a million. It's a lot to do with labor market demand by businesses, Canadian businesses that want cheap labor. So as I write in the story, there's been a relationship between businesses and the Canadian government going back to confederation that's been sort of working sort of in tandem to open up the spigots of cheap foreign, temporary foreign labor for as long as Canada has existed. And we really saw it spike again, starting in 2000. And now it's really sort of out of control. And you have a lot of these sort of immigration consultants

that take advantage of that, game the system and make millions off it. And, you know, I guess there's an old expression, never ascribe sort of nefarious intent where incompetence will do. And so I have to assume I guess there's an old expression, never ascribe sort of nefarious intent where incompetence will do. And so I have to assume that the governments, successive governments had good intentions,

but through poor planning, poor oversight, this situation was allowed to fester. Would that be your assessment? Yeah, I think there's multiple things. It's poor planning. It's poor organization. It's poor understanding of how to keep control of this kind of system. But it's also, I think, you know, Canada has a very well sort of very well calibrated immigration system. We were very good at picking out the really sort of skilled labor, bringing them to Canada. They integrate very quickly, but at the same time, we need low skilled labor. Now,

that's where a lot of this is playing out. So that system is completely broken down now. So walk me through that system. If I were a low skilled worker from the other side of the world and I wanted a better life in Canada, I would have to go through this system. And a lot of it is fraught with bad actors demanding money upfront, promising jobs that don't exist. Walk me through your experience in getting to know

this system. Sure, yeah. So what often happens is you have these guys basically advertising online, guaranteed jobs in Canada, come to Canada on a temporary visa, and then transition that over to permanent residence, become a citizen of Canada. So there's all these sort of businesses, these individuals that basically promise a new life in Canada. So you have people, desperate people in places like Dubai or working as migrant laborers or in India or in the Philippines that basically want to jump onto this.

Most often these players ask for 2,000, thousand, three thousand thousands of dollars upfront just to talk to people, so to get the process started. And then once you're in, then they sort of bring you along. You pay a couple of thousands more to get what's called a temporary labor market impact assessment to then get a work permit to then come to Canada, and then you're promised a certain job in Canada, but then when you arrive, that job doesn't exist.

And then you're basically on your own. So there's sort of this, yeah, please go ahead. I was reading as well that in a lot of cases, if you do manage to get from the entry point of the system to the other side with a job, then you have to, a lot of times they have to pay their travel expenses, which is supposed to be provided by the employer. They say, oh you might get reimbursed just a little bit, and then once you get there, you're given temporary housing for a

couple of weeks until you find your own place, which is becoming increasingly difficult. So it's hurdle after hurdle. And that the Canadian promise that people like Pierre Poliev are always talking about is increasingly out of reach for these people for whom they thought it was a real possibility. Yeah, I mean, what I really want to emphasize here is that these are desperate people that are promised a new life, right? I mean, Canada has has this has a tendency to fill up these sort of low wage jobs with temporary workers

because they don't want to spend the money trying to integrate and bring these, you know, low wage workers with less education are harder to integrate. It takes more resources to bring them into the country and make them part of Canada. But I think there's a certain responsibility in Canada. If we're going to bring these low wage workers into our country, we have to bring them in as new Canadians, not as sort of guest laborers who are expected to leave. That's where a lot of the the the exploitation happens. And I think there does need to be a change in the way we see immigration in Canada and the way we we deal with it and to really give these people a fighting chance here.

A part of the bargain of the temporary foreign workers program is that the employer has to demonstrate that they, in good faith, try to offer this job to people who currently lived in Canada. And in your story, it sort of exposes that in many cases, there are those those those claims of, of an offer are made out of old cloth. Yeah, I mean, we've seen this just run wild and get out of control, especially during the pandemic when the ESDC, the Canadian department that issues these labor market impact assessments that basically are issued after a business can prove that it wasn't able to hire a Canadian.

So after the pandemic, when there was a huge spike in the shortage of labor, they eased the whole system. So they were able to like grant these LMIAs much more easily and quickly. And that just opens up the space for massive corruption. People are posting fake job postings. easily and quickly and that just opens up the space for massive corruption. People are posting fake job postings, they basically put a job posting up for a job and

then not take anybody and then just say that nobody applied for it. And there's all sorts of methods they use to get around the system. So they're able to say, well, we did try to hire somebody. But I mean, I've spoken to people that were able to point out fake jobs for jobs paying $30 an hour that didn't require a high school diploma and hadn't been taken in, in months. And it's, it just looks odd who that job should be gone within a week. Exactly. You know, so someone once said, when you invent, when you invent something new, you also invent the abuse of that thing. And so when you put together a program like this, you have to know that people

will abuse of the system. And unless you put checks and balances in place to ensure that you're doing your best to mitigate that abuse, then you're going to have a system like this. And I thank you, Adnan, for coming on the show to highlight it, because Canada needs these workers. Canada is better for them, but only if we have a system that works for all of us. So I thank you very much for your hard work on that. Thanks, Ben. Pleasure to be here. and your favorite trusted experts all under one roof. Are you kidding me?

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