The Ben Mulroney Show - Refugee health care co-pay in Canada? Why some think it's too much.

Episode Date: May 4, 2026

GUEST: Dr. Noya Shilo is a specialist in Internal Medicine and a senior physician at Sheba Medical Center. GUEST: Wyatt Sharpe /  host of “The Sharpe Exchange” If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Learn more at www.f35.com slash Canada. Wherever you are and whatever you're doing, it's Monday for all of us, and I hope everyone's had a nice restful weekend, and you've been attacking the day with zest and vim and vigor. And to open this show, because the nerd in me, I got to let my nerd flag fly. Let's begin with the fact that this is May 4th, and may the 4th be with you.

So my story real quick, just want to tell the story. In one of my highlights growing up, one of my highlights in television prior to leaving television, was the fact that I got to I got to go to Skywalker Ranch I went to Skywalker Ranch and I met George Lucas this is before the they sold to Disney

and it was before we watched the episodes 1, 2, and 3 and realized they were kind of garbage and we were just so excited to have new movies and new Star Wars and I how do I say this?

I unlike, so it's like that's the mecca for nerds, right? Mecca for virgins, for lack of a better word. And I met a girl on Skywalker Ranch and we dated for a while. She worked for 20th Century Fox because they were the ones putting out the Lucas film. Was she an Ewok? Not an Ewok, man. She's a very pretty lady. Was she a cosplayer? No, she was a publicist. Was she from the planet Coruscant? That would be okay. I would remind to that. Anyway, she was a wookie. Dude, what the hell's wrong with you?

Star Wars, baby. Yeah, okay. You got out of your system? Nope. Welcome back, Dr. Leigh. Oh, thank you. Okay, well, from a galaxy far, far away to the skies above our heads, Air Canada posted a tweet celebrating the fact that they had a flight operated by an all-indigenous crew.

And Air Canada will continue walking the path towards reconciliation and representation in our industry. This tweet did not land. Unlike the plane, the plane landed. This tweet did not land. And they had to turn the comments off because people were like, again, enough. And when I say again, they did this last year, celebrating the first time they had an all-LGBQIA plus crew. And everyone sort of said, okay, thanks, but kind of want you focusing on other things. And to this, I say, look, it's great.

But why would you post this knowing that you're going to get the reaction you do? And who are you performing for? There's an honest question. Who is this for? Are you padding yourselves on the back air, Canada? Because I don't know what you're saying. Are you saying that we are an intolerant country and you are the ones leading the way to tolerance and equity and inclusion? And I'll go back to last year.

I think a lot of people were insulted that Eric Canada was presenting itself as some sort of tip of some social spear in a country that has been known to be forward thinking and open to gay, you know, people of the LGBTQ community. And not for nothing. The airline industry has been very open to that community for generations. and I just I don't know what reality you're living in where you think that we need you to do anything but get us places as affordably and efficiently and optimally as possible. And until you nail that, this is almost a distraction from all that. And I'll tell you, if you really wanted this tweet to land, what you should have done is you should have had your all indigenous crew working for months, months. hell a year and then come back and tweet after a year and say we have had an all indigenous crew on this airline for a year and here was the success rate here were how many complaints we got

here's how many this how here's how many that you show people the results of it and you say look look at how successful it was then maybe we're talking about something but this smacks of performance. And life is hard for everyone today. I don't know that people have the bandwidth to raise awareness for something that doesn't rise to the level of needing awareness. Members of First Nations are free to apply and get any job they want. Not for nothing. Probably more jobs than most these days based on the stories that we're telling about what is available at universities and at the federal government level and the CBC. So I don't know that you're going to get a lot of cheers from anyone beyond a certain circle of

hyper performatively empathetic people. Like we just want to pay our bills. We just want to know that tomorrow's going to be better than today. Yes, for everyone, but also specifically for me. And you're thinking about it for you. and I don't have a lot of bandwidth for this sort of nonsense. It's not the people involved are not nonsense. I'm happy for them.

The effort of Air Canada to put itself forth as some sort of driving force of reconciliation is people are appreciating instinctively that it's, it's BS. it's it's BS. They know it. They know it. They can feel it. And patting yourself on the back, while others, while we're just trying to get by,

everyone's just trying to get by. And reading this, this doesn't help anybody. This doesn't pay my bills. This doesn't make the streets safer. This doesn't make me feel that sending my kids to school, they're getting the best possible education. This doesn't make me feel that the mountain of money

that I'm paying to the government is being spent, properly. This doesn't make me feel good for the future that our governments are so responsible that they are slowly paying down the debt. Like none of it. None of it is helped by this, but it makes you feel good, Air Canada. So I guess there's that. I'm not here to make you feel good. I'm not. And you're not here to make me feel good. You're here to get me somewhere. So let's focus on that. And maybe remember that the last one you posted was not a huge success. Anyway, we've got lots to talk to, including Canada's refugee situation.

Because there is news today that refugees now must pay $4 per prescription and 30% of their cost of dental, of vision care, counseling, and medical equipment like wheelchairs. That's as of May 1st. And there are doctors and refugee support outreach programs that are not happy with this. They say these co-pays will deny care and worsen health and push more people into emergency rooms. But I just want to give you a point of comparison. Just a point of comparison. Before we start looking at this co-pay as too much of a burden for anybody, seniors in Canada who are low-income seniors, people who have been paying into the system their entire lives have a co-pay of on average of $2.

Middle income seniors who these days are being pushed into lower income have a copay between $6 and $10. These are Canadian citizens who have been paying into the system are paying anywhere between $2 and $10. And again, those people who immediately look at this and say, oh, it's too much money for them. They shouldn't be paying anything. Well, have you looked at the system in Canada already? Like, where's the money going to come from? because taxes aren't enough. Philanthropy isn't enough.

AI and optimization isn't enough. So what are we supposed to do if not ask the people who are using it to pay just a little bit? If that's a bridge too far and if we immediately go from that to, oh, it's going to be traumatic for them, then give me a solution

beyond asking people who are already spread thin to pay more. I don't have a solution. for you. This seems like a fair solution. And it's them buying into Canada. It's getting skin in the game. And if we can't agree on that,

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Now. Every style, every home. All right, it's disclosure time. So a few years ago, I was introduced to a medical center, a hospital in Israel, called Shiba Medical Center. And I was asked to host an event, which I did. And I really liked it. And I did the more I studied and learned about this place, and I realized it was unlike any other hospital I'd ever seen. If you are from Toronto, you know that we have a really special part of this city called

hospital row and we have our major hospitals there. I have been told that the Sheba Medical Center is that on steroids in the best possible way. And after October 7th, they took on even more resonance for people like myself because when soldiers would come back from the front lines, that is where they would go. And when hostages would be released, that is where they would go. and when families of hostages who had passed away needed help, that is where they would go. And so just because I want the audience to know, I am now an advisor to the Canadian friends of Shiba Medical Center.

And there's an event tonight where we'll be raising money for this incredible institution. And someone who came in for this event is Dr. Noya Shiloh, she is a specialist in internal medicine, senior physician at Sheba Medical Center, but also the head of the Back to Life Center, which we've got to talk about. But doctor, thank you for making the trip,

and thank you for all you've done for the hostages and for the soldiers, and just generally for anybody who avails themselves of Shiba. Thank you so much for having me. So talk to me about, why did you get in the medicine? Why did I get in medicine? Yeah, let's go back to the beginning for you.

Oh, wow. I didn't expect that one. No, why'd you become a doctor? Okay, so after me. to tell you, I went to interview in medical school when I was out of the army. Everyone goes to the army in Israel. I was 20. And I went to interview and they asked me, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I thought they were expecting something like nurse surgeon, cure cancer, something like that. And I said, I want to be a doctor who's a human being. This is what I said. This is

what I wanted to do and this is what I ended up doing. And Shiba is, I mean, I've described it as somebody who hasn't been there. Talk to me about what it's like for you. And as a doctor. And you've been to other medical centers, other hospitals. So what's different about it? Shiba is truly an incredible place to work at because, first of all, I want to give you just the facts. It's the biggest hospital in Israel, the biggest hospital in the Middle East. It's ranked top seven in the world. It's really an incredible place to be in. But I think more than anything else, like just the numbers, the story of Shiba or the DNA of Shiba is really being in the place where there are no man to be a man or a man. inch and to go where no one has gone before and to lay down the vision as big as you can

and go for it. And I really have this kind of support doing my work. Let's talk about the back to life center and the notion of trauma. On this side of the world, and I've had conversations with other people in that chair, there is a, there's been a, depending on who you talk to, a misappropriation of the word trauma, that what used to just be, you know, something we went through in life is now being labeled trauma or traumatic. What you see in the families of hostages and in the hostages itself probably rises to a level of trauma that most human beings, well, no human beings should ever get to, but without care, probably can't get through themselves. This is really nothing like we've ever seen before, like I've ever seen before,

and it's not something we were prepared for, right? You don't have the literature, you don't have the references. When I went to medical school, no one taught me how to treat someone who came back from such atrocity. And we really see this as both a very complex situation of the trauma of the body and the mind and the spirit. And also really a very inspirational example. of the human spirit. Yeah. And this is what we work with. So if everyone experiences trauma differently and exhibits it differently, then doesn't successfully

navigating through trauma look different for every person? Of course. Okay. Medicine is completely tailor made. We use all the tools that we have at Shiba. I usually say that I went shopping building the center. I went shopping at the huge Costco, which is Shiba, and it just loaded my cart with everything I found.

So we have everything from traditional, conventional medicine like orthopedic surgeons and oncologists, neurologists and so forth, and rehabilitation teams, and mental health, of course. But it's got to be mental health on a level and a scope that, like I said, most people don't ever get near. What are you learning about trauma at Shiba that others can't even fathom? I think what I learned going into this, having no training in trauma, obviously, I'm an internist. I was very naive going in. I heard of such a thing as PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. I've heard of such a thing as PTG, post-traumatic growth.

And I was very naive thinking we're going to take them through the bridge from PTSD to PTG. And what we've learned is, first of all, we don't take them anywhere. They're their own people. We're with them side by side. We don't know anything more than they do. And the other thing that I've learned is PTSD and PDG are not mutually exclusive. So someone can have PTSD with a flashbacks and with nightmares and all that.

And also show tremendous signs of growth. So what is a metric, what does a benchmark for success look like in this new frontier of post-trauma? I think we don't use terms as failure and success. Okay. We just take it step by step by step. But can we use the word like progress? Of course. Okay, so what does progress look like?

I think progress. First of all, I'll talk as an internist. Some of them came with very severe injuries that were neglected, gunshot injuries that were neglected for a year and more. Yeah. So treating that well and having them function normally. They all came after being starved and immobile for so long. So having them rehabilitated from that, for one.

and to have them rebuild their story, their tragedy, their loss, their trauma in a way that is weaved into a story that they can continue living with. I think this is progress. Nobody is, I can't believe that a doctor would ever give up on anyone, but there have to be some really tough cases that challenge you. Of course. So how do you, when you look at somebody that you don't feel like you're getting the progress that they deserve, is it as simple as we just haven't tried what they need yet? What's the pathway to staying positive? That's such a wonderful question.

First of all, I'm an internist, so I see people in their end of their lives. I've done this decades before I became the doctor of the hostages. And I know that we will not be able to help all of them. I know that. But I also know that we will never stop trying. One of my favorite lines from literature is from Syranos de Bergerac, or at the end of his life, at the end of the book, when he realizes that the love that he had for Roxanne is unrequited,

he says, it's so much more beautiful when you know you're not going to achieve. In other words, the beauty is in the trying. That's just beautiful. Yeah, I know our job is to be there for as long as they need us, never lose hope and do everything we can, listen to them and work with them. This is our job.

Before we go, I just want to spend one minute for anybody watching who as soon as they hear a Mulruni talk about Israel and hostages, they just assume it's a political conversation. That Shiba is this beautiful proof of how everyone can work together, everyone can live together, and one can respect one another. Talk to me about who works there and who gets treated there. Absolutely, the public medical system in Israel, which is really the best.

Any doctor respects themselves work in the public system. treats everyone, all the sectors, Jews, Arabs, ultra-Orthodox Jews, Christians, Bedouin, Drews, all of them. And all of us work together. The staff is... Side by side. And the hospital cannot work for a single day without everyone. And we're best friends. And we're more than that.

And some of my best friends are Arabs and Christians and Jews of all sectors. and we work together and we're a proof of concept that it works. It can't work any other way. Dr. Noia Shiloh, from the Back to Life Center at the Shiba Medical Center. Thank you so much. Thank you for making the trip to Canada. I look forward to spending some time with you tonight at the fundraiser. Thank you.

Thank you very much. All right. Don't go anywhere when we come back. Good friend of the show, Wyatt Sharp is here. He's got a new podcast, the Sharp Exchange. So we're going to talk to him but what to expect on his show, as well as get the pulse of a very smart, very, well-to-do young person far more accomplished at his age than I could ever dream of.

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You know, we often talk about the present state of media, and people wonder, is journalism in a good place? Well, I can't speak to that, but if this man is part of journalism's future, then it certainly has a fighting chance. Please welcome back to the show. Good friend Wyatt Sharp, who is, he's got a new show on his hands.

The Sharp Exchange. Wyatt, welcome back. Thanks so much. Okay, what is, what's the, what's the sharp exchange about? Yeah, so for people who don't know, I started in journalism and politics one. I was about 11, and ever since I was 11 years old, I've been doing interviews with politicians and elected officials in Canada and in the United States. And I originally posted them on YouTube, and then I had started doing some cable segments.

And really, this new show is kind of a combination. of what I've been doing since I was 11, but also what's kind of special about this new show is that it really focuses on including Gen Z voices in the conversation. And what that means is having weekly panels with Gen Z voices, where we talk about affordability, where we talk about energy,

and just some of those core kind of kitchen table issues that are impacting young people, perhaps more than other demographics right now. As always, with everything that you do, you end up getting some top-shelf guests. Your first episode includes Anthony Scaramucci, who, set a land speed record for getting hired and fired in the first Trump administration,

and Scott McFarland, the storied American journalist. Oh, you got Ari Fleischer as well. I mean, that's like, well done, my friend. Give them my number. So what were those conversations like? Yeah, I mean, Anthony Cheramitcher, I think has a really interesting story in the sense of, as you pointed out, he was the White House Communications Director for only 11 days. He was pro-Trump.

He was anti-Trump. He kind of went back and forth on that. And when I interviewed him, he talked a lot about how, yes, the Republicans under Trump have a lot of issues, but one of the best things that they have going for them right now are the Democrats in the sense that the Democrats are equally divided there in kind of the same culture worth that the Republicans are dividing themselves with right now. And so that was one of the focal points from that interview. Scott McFarlane, on the other hand, as you pointed out, the former CBS correspondent, he talked a lot about kind of the divisions within CBS and specifically under the network's new boss, Barry Weiss, and kind of where media is going. So lots of interesting kind of conversations

and all of them coming at it from different angles. But as you pointed out, I mean, I think part of what's happening right now in the media ecosphere is all of these kind of different people have so many different stories to share. And the goal is, as I said, to kind of bring them into the conversation. So how are you going to fight back against what I've seen

poll after poll and study after study says that Gen Z predominantly gets their, news and from sources like TikTok, how are you going to get them to turn their attention to a show like yours, which I think, listen, I think you come by your interest in politics genuinely and you do, you know, you're coming at it from your generational perspective. So it would behoove a lot of these younger Canadians to listen to a show like yours. Yeah, and I think that's one thing is I really do want to try and make this new show as accessible as possible. It's going to be on social media on kind of all the same platforms that you

pointed out in terms of where Gen Z is getting their news. And I would also say, I think part of what politicians and those in office do right now is dismiss young people as not caring about politics, as being apathetic towards politics. And I think a lot of it comes down to a question of disillusionment as opposed to apathy. And that is, young people feel as if candidates and politicians only kind of put genuine care into their concerns during the election period and then after the election ends, all of a sudden that care kind of stops. So I think by including Gen Z voices in a show like this during kind of a non-election period, it hopefully can make them feel as if their voices matter and hopefully kind of reduce that disillusionment and make them feel like they have a role to play

in the process. What do you say to people who would say, you know, one of the criticisms that we've gotten here, not often, but sometimes it is, you know, why, why are you? even talking about American politics. Why are you talking about Mayor Mom Dani? Why are you talking about Karen Bass and the Los Angeles municipal election? And I always say, because these are, the forces at play in those cities

sometimes are at play here. And the more we know about other races, the more we can appreciate the race in Toronto or the recent race in Calgary or the race in Vancouver. What do you say to that? Yeah, I mean, I definitely take some of that criticism, But I also think if any kind of recent news events or any indication, like Canada-U.S. relations has been one of the biggest news stories for the past year, plus even, with respect to trade, with respect to tariffs.

So I think that's one thing that I would say. But then also, there is kind of a trickle-down effect, as you point out, where anything that happens in the United States, some way or another, it makes its way up north of the border into Canada. And there are a number of examples of that. I think, I mean, you mentioned Mayor Mammondon, for example. People have been drawing comparisons between Zohran Mammondon. and Olivia Chow. I think there's a lot of comparisons that can be made between our two countries. We share the largest land border. It's a relationship that I think is very important to kind of protect and to preserve. And so I think that really trying to, again, zone in on the protection

of that relationship and understanding that we impact each other's countries quite a bit. And again, in the context of trade, Canada has a lot to offer to the United States as well. And that's another thing that hopefully we'll be able to highlight in some upcoming interviews. I'd love to get your take on this American story and that Kamla Harris, the presidential wannabe, endorsed Karen Bass, who is the L.A. mayor. She's running for re-election. And it looks like her biggest competition is former reality TV star Spencer Pratt. He's, you know, she's got about 10-point lead on him. However, 40% of voters are undecided. So this could swing dramatically in one direction or another. Kamala said that she stamped out. crime and homelessness. I don't know if that's true, but what do you think? Yeah, I mean, I think it's certainly fair to say that she hasn't really stamped that out totally. If you have been to L.A. recently, I think anyone would know that that's not entirely true. But I also think, like, to that point, one thing that people kind of have made the mistake

of doing consistently in American politics is dismissing the underdog, whether that's Trump, whether that's Mumb Donnie. And so I think in the context of the L.A. mayor's race, have people been happy with Karen Bass as the mayor of L.A.? In many ways, they haven't been affordability that record highs, gas prices at record highs. If you look to issues at the more municipal level in a place like L.A., you obviously have, again, issues that are impacting in terms of homelessness, in terms of city management, even, you know, issues as trivial as garbage collection in a place like L.A. You've seen a number of complaints on that as well.

So all of a sudden it starts to become if these practical day-to-day issues aren't being fixed, people will do what they did in 2016 or what they did in 2025 with Donald Trump and with Zohraim. Donnie and they'll start to look towards a more kind of practical, relatable person. And maybe that is Spencer Pratt. Maybe that's somebody else. But the L.A. mayor's race, I think, similar to New York, is an indication of where some of these big cities are going politically. And you can also use that as an indication of perhaps how the midterms are going to go as well.

White Sharp, who else are you looking for to talk to on the Sharp Exchange? Well, I'd love to have Mark Carney on, our prime minister. I'd love to have, obviously, Benjamin Nathieu, Vladimir Zelensky, any of these kind of like world leaders who are obviously in the thick of it right now dealing with whether it's Ukraine, Russia, whether that's Israel and Iran and Hamas. There's no shortage of news. But again, all of it, I think, is just trying to bring Gen Z voices into the conversation and whoever wants to be a part of that.

We'd love to have them on and always appreciate you highlighting it as well. Well, very proud to highlight this stuff for you. But again, with all this travel, I want to ask you again, how are you able to juggle school and this work? I mean, it's a heavy workload. Yeah, I'm going to be totally honest and transparent with you. I'm calling in from a high school track and field meet, so I try to find time for everything. So it definitely gets like a little bit busy.

I'm going into grade 12, so university applications too. But all of it, I think, is just not losing sight of what's important. I think, you know, I used to play hockey. I used to play baseball. And this, to a certain extent, it's kind of become my new hockey. It's become my new baseball. And so similar to how other kids, you know, devote a whole bunch of time to that stuff, this is important to me.

and I hope that it's making a difference in terms of, again, bringing people whose voices otherwise wouldn't be included into it. And so, yeah, it's a little bit busy, but I also, busy is a good thing for me. I think staying occupied and, you know, keeping a purpose kind of makes you feel good, but also makes you feel like you're contributing something. Wyatt, Sharp, I really appreciate you taking time out of your track and field meet to talk about your new podcast where the Sharp Exchange,

where your first episode includes Anthony Scaramucci, Scott McFarlane, at Ari Fleischer. My friend, thank you so much. I do hope at some point you take time to rest and recharge. But I'm looking forward to watching The Sharp Exchange. I appreciate it. Hey, it's Ellen Cross. And if you love true crime podcasts, you're invited to join me for a very special live recording of my award-winning podcast, Uncharted Crime and Mayhem in the music industry. May 7th is part of the departure music conference. It's going to be an evening filled with stories about mobsters and gangsters who got their hooks into the music industry. We're talking rubouts, kidnappings, beatings, and a whole lot. more. Music and the mob. A special live recording of uncharted crime and mayhem in the music industry. May 7th at the Jane Mallet Theatre at 27 Front Street. Tickets at Departartartor.com.