The Ben Mulroney Show - Should Canada take a closer look at heroism in Afghanistan?

Episode Date: August 15, 2025

- Mike Drolet hosting - MP Pauline Rochefort Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome back on Mike Troulet. Let me just get this out of the way first. Let's just really just get right straight to the point. Nobody likes war. Nobody wants war. Anybody who does is a sociopath, psychotic, whatever. You, nobody, wants to see war. You don't want to see your brothers, sisters, your neighbors, your friends, your family going off and having to fight a war in some distant land. It's obviously over the years, like, I mean, the Second World War was a much different beast than any of the wars were fighting now around the world. But it's nothing, it just, it tragedy upon tragedy upon tragedy, it breaks up families, it grips people apart. That doesn't mean you can't respect

the people who fight for your country. It doesn't mean that you can do the right thing by them, and you can't look at them and go, okay, you did what was asked upon you. You did your duty. So this is the story of Jess La Rochelle. Back in when Canada was in Afghanistan, Jess La Rochelle did something so unbelievably heroic that he was given the second highest award. in Canada's military.

But that's not enough because there is a group now called Valor and the Presidents of the Enemy. And they are trying to write a wrong and trying to get him awarded the Victoria Cross. Victoria Cross is the top medal that you can get in this country and has been forever. The last time it was awarded was in Second World War, which is a remarkably long time ago. We're talking 80 years ago now, yet still it hasn't been handed out. It used to be the Victoria Cross was awarded by the monarchy, but they changed that in 1993. It was actually Ben Mulroney's dad, Brian Mulroney, who changed it to the Canadian Victoria Cross. And they had about 20 of these metals minted, but they've never handed one out.

They never had a reason those early years. But then Canada was called upon after 9-11 to help out with the Americans and to go to Afghanistan and try to liberate the people of Afghanistan. And for a while, they did so. Obviously, towards the end, it became a very unpopular war. I covered it as well. I was there as a reporter for two sessions, for two years, in 2006, for two tours, rather, and 2008. When I was there in 2006, I was stationed, the Canadian military was part of what was called Operation Medusa,

which was the largest battle Canada had fought since the Second World War. And there was one night, I remember it was my birthday, September 4th. And I was out in the, I was out on a perimeter around one of the light armored vehicles and watching these American A10 whartogs strafing this position a couple of kilometers away. If you've ever seen one of these things in life, you've probably seen them in movies probably. In real life, it is terrifying. It is spine-tingingly terrifying. And it's been compared to a dragon spewing fire in the night sky.

And you hear this loud rap, you hear this massive, this huge sound. And then a few seconds later, four or five seconds later, you wait, and it's quiet, pitch black. And then you hear that pab-pah-pub, and you see the light up on the ground, and you go, wow, whew, whoever's on the receiving end of that should run away. Well, as it turned out, that day, and one of those strafing runs, hit a Canadian position, resulting in the death of one Canadian, and injuring a whole bunch of others, wounding a whole bunch of others, including a man by the name of Bruce Monker, who we had on the Ben Mulrooney show just a few days ago. I'm here filling in for Alex today, but my regular job is as producer for the Ben Malruni show. and so we had him on a few days ago talking about this and so I've always had this connection with Bruce he was he was injured he was wounded in that

that battle by the American Wardhog and he suffered a traumatic brain injury he's recovered he had to learn how to speak again and he had to learn everything again and he's recovered to such an extent now that he's he's a teacher and he's a wonderful guy and he's trying to do some good trying to reverse a wrong so this is a story that is about this guy, Jess La Rochelle, who a few months later in October of that year,

and I have to try to get through this story a little quicker than I should because of time restraints here. But here we go. So it was in October, and he was in a position and a forward operating position. And the Taliban were advancing upon him. His position got hit with an RPG, one of these rockets, sending him flying through the air. into a ditch, which they call in Africa. They call him Wadi's there. And two of his comrades were killed, and he had suffered horrible injuries. His back was broken, you know, detached retina.

His ears were gone. I mean, he had horrible injuries. And yet he knew that if he didn't do something, it would have resulted, if he didn't fight back, he would have left his entire platoon, the rest of the people that he was fighting with, exposed because he was on the flank. And this is what Bruce said about how many people just saved that day. The Canadian position would have been overrun. The very, very real risk of Canadians being captured.

And being captured by the Taliban meant you were probably going to be publicly beheaded. So what did he do? He crawled back up to that listening post. He crawled back up to his position. His gun had been damaged. He could barely move, yet he saw the 20 to 40 Taliban approaching. And what he looked, he looked around and he said, what do I have? Well, he had these rocket launchers.

They're called M72s. The shoulder, it looks like it basically a big tube. You put it on your shoulder. And when you fire it, it sends a jolt through you. It really does hurt. Can you imagine doing that with a broken back? So that's all he had. He was 20 years old at the time.

He started firing these things off. hitting Taliban fighters straight, like dead on with a rocket. You can imagine what that did. And he fought them off for hours. And managed to, and finally the Taliban were like, what is going on here? And they turned around and retreated. And he stayed in that position. He stayed in that position to make sure that nobody else could come around and attack the rest of his platoon.

from behind, from the flank. So when he finally was taken away, when they finally did come to rescue him, basically, and to take away the bodies of his dead friends, he went back to the basin candahar, but he refused to get treatment because he was still moving okay a little bit, but he was so adamant that he wanted to carry the coffin,

the casket, rather, of one of his colleagues, one of his friends. And so he carried it in the ramp ceremony. I saw too many of those. Heartbreaking, absolutely horrendous to do. They made you cry every time you saw them. And it's just this slow procession of these soldiers carrying the casket under the Hercules, which takes it back to Canada.

He eventually said, okay, yeah, now I'll get treatment. And they didn't have the proper things to be able to, the machines there to be able to do, to check his spine properly. so they put him on a commercial air flight. Middle seat sent him to Germany, where they finally discovered, oh, wow, yeah, broken back, all these other problems, internal injuries. And for that, he was given the star of military valor. But considering what he did, the bravery he showed, if that does not merit the Victoria Cross, I don't know what does. So now there's a petition out, a petition to change history, to be able to, even just to look at it, to reconsider

consider it. It's not to glorify war. It's to actually respect the people who fought for this country because he was fighting for this country because his country asked him to. So after the break, we're going to talk to Pauline Rochefort. She's an MP from where Jess La Rochelle was from. And she has sponsored this petition to be able to get a review, to be able to write a wrong from long ago. That's coming up next. Welcome back. I'm Mike Trolley. Back before I joined 640 and started working behind the scenes, I was a reporter. I was a national reporter for Global National for many years. I did a couple of tours in Afghanistan. I always went to places I used to say.

I always wanted to cover the Olympics, but they'd never let me do that. I used a joke around that they only sent me places where I could get shot. that didn't go over well with the wife it certainly did not it certainly did not go over well with her uh hence the uh partly partly the reason for the change and uh so now um but back in like 2020 2021 uh i ended up started talking to these this group of veterans who were trying to get to write a wrong trying to get a corporal by name of jess la Rochelle the victoria cross at the time he was still he was suffering from the injuries that he had sustained

while in Afghanistan. I didn't know, I didn't realize until just this week that, as it turns out, I'm one of only two reporters that ever spoke to him in the years after the war, myself in the late Christy Blatchford. And I remember speaking to him from the hospital. He was in his hospital bed. I was speaking to him over a video feed. And he just, he was such a kind, humble, soft-spoken guy, certainly did not appear to be

the soldier he was when he was 20 years old. He lost a lot of weight. He ended up dying just a few years ago, two years ago this August actually, from massive organ failure related to the injuries he suffered in Afghanistan. So they had tried at the time back in 2021 to get this, to be able to get this story heard,

to be able to have the government, just hear the story. All you have to do is that. But they refused. They wouldn't do it. They just would not do it. and I couldn't get any support anywhere, no matter which politician I asked to look at this. It really set us back.

So they sort of went away for a bit, but they've come back now because, in part because of our next guest. Pauline Rochford is the MP for Nipissing to Mischamink, which is where Jess Lerichel lived. and she has done something which we couldn't get done, which this group couldn't get done back in 2021. She has now sponsoring a new petition to be able to get this heard. And this is not a small thing. So joining me now, Pauline Rochefort, thanks so much. Thank you very much.

I had not realized that you had interviewed Jess. And so that's very good to know. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, no, I spoke to him. spoke with his father, just an amazing family, amazing guy. And he always, and, you know, when he spoke about what happened that day, he would, he would just talk about it. He would say that he didn't do it because he, was he scared?

Yeah, he's terrified. But he did it because he had to do it because it was between, it was, he was the only thing that stood between him and his friends getting attacked and dying. Yes. And the injuries were substantial, right? When you described how he was hurt, actually he volunteered to be at the front, to be the sentinel. And so he was hit right at the beginning, and he suffered a significant concussion, a broken back, a broken neck. His retina was detached, and one of his eardrums was pierced.

Yeah. And even with all these injuries, he stood up, took his rifle and fired. fired away for 12 hours, he manned his post, and he defended his, what he called his buddies, his platoon. There are two that passed away, but nonetheless, he is credited for having saved his platoon. And so, yes, that is pretty significant, very brave. And I am very proud to say that he is from our riding. He is from my community, North Bay, and his family live there. and so thank you very much for raising his story. I told the story in our last segment.

I detailed the story about how we use these rockets and everything and how he carried. He refused to get treated until he was able to carry the casket of one of his fallen friends, which is insane, which is nuts. But he did that. But what was your reaction when you first heard the details of his story about what he did? I found it very significant, very touching, and so I think it's very important to tell these stories. I served for many years in municipal government and attended many Remembrance Day ceremonies and commemorative celebrations or events for veterans, and I always felt that there was a lack

of stories related to some of our more recent wars, Bosnia, Libya, Somalia, but especially Afghanistan, where 40,000 Canadians served. And so for me very much, it's important to tell these stories like Jess' story. But as a result of taking an interest in his story, I did actually go back and read

all the stories of all the 81 veterans who did back after World War I and World War II received the Victoria Cross. And I found so many similarities, so many acts of bravery, And so, yes, I'm very... It's hard to compare acts of bravery, right? It's hard to say, this is more valuable, this is this.

But apparently that was one of the reasons why he wasn't given the Victoria Cross because they were actually a little gun-shy to use an unfortunate... The brass was a little gun-shyed to be able to hand it out because they were like, well, we have to give it out for the best of the best, but they were terrified. They didn't know what that was. They weren't able to figure it out. But, I mean, his story is a no-brainer. Well, certainly we know the history of the Victoria Cross.

It was re-established in 1992 as the Canadian Victoria Cross. And since then, there's never been one that's been awarded. And so basically that is what the Afghanistan veterans are saying. There's 40,000 of us, they're saying, that fought. And there were many different battles that carried names like Medusa and Mount Thrust and so on. And they're saying there were many acts of bravery during those various conflicts. And they point to our allies. They say, how come the people we fought side by side with in those countries?

They were awarded Victoria Crosses. But in our country, we were not. And I think that that's a very valid point. In addition, you know, we meet many veterans from Afghanistan who suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder. and they say one in five. And so there's a lot of pain out there in our country amongst Afghanistan veterans. And so for them, it's like this is a mission

to be able to be recognized, to be acknowledged for the conflict that they faced. So let me ask you then about the political element of this. Because when I was doing this story back in 2021, when I was trying to get people to talk about this, there was a real political, reticence. People were on both sides of the aisle. I remember it was during the 2021 election, and I went even up to conservative leader Aaron O'Toole at the time, who was a former member of the

military, and he gave the most wishy-washy answer. He wouldn't even commit. All I asked him, would you commit to reopening these cases just to even hear them? And he would not. He just passed the buck. He has since said, and he has since, you know, after he lost the election, he actually has since come out and said that we need a review panel. I mean, it's much easier to do when you're in opposition than when you're actually fighting for government, I suppose. But you are now in government, and you're saying this, you're saying we need to look at this, which is incredibly brave and what they've been trying to get for years. So why did you decide to do it? And did you consider the

political ramifications? Well, it's a grassroots effort for sure. And there's a lot of it that is included or stems from my own community. And so that's important, what's important to my community is important to me as well. And so we are a community where there is since the 1950s, a Canadian Armed Forces base. We are home to NORAD. And so there are many veterans in Nipissing, especially North Bay. And so first and foremost, it's on behalf of my community. And it's on behalf of Jess and his family who come from my same hometown.

So it's personal at that, on that level. But certainly, I mean, I do find right now as our country, I'm very delighted with Mark Carney and our government, the stand that they've taken, the announcements last week for improvements and salaries, those were so well received in my community. I've heard that's been well received all over the place. Yes, and so I think as a country, we've all gotten behind

the effort to rebuild, re-arm, reinvest in our Canadian Armed Forces. we all recognize that our world has become more dangerous and we as a country need to defend ourselves. And as we look to recruit young people, and I would like many to come from my own writing to take part in that particular journey. And I find that positive testimonials are going to be essential. And so as we look to the Afghan veterans,

it's about that opportunity for them to speak up positively about their experience. So back in 2022, when Aaron O'Toole was a conservative leader, he actually did press for a review, but it failed in the House of Commons when the liberal government at the time opposed it. So you're part of the liberal government now.

How is this being received by your colleagues? And do you think you can get enough support for your colleagues in this current liberal government to support this? I don't know, but I know what we will do. We will work. There is a petition that is a grassroots petition that will come before government. And so I do see this as very, it's not a, you know,

it's not a party related issue. This is a Canadian issue. And so I am hoping that it will be received in that fashion. And then there will be a response from our national defense. And so, but at the very least, coming back to a comment you made, it will allow us as we proceed in the months to come to tell the stories, to tell the stories of Jess La Rochelle and the other. others who have served in Afghanistan. And I know that the valor in the presence of the enemy, that organization that you spoke about at the beginning, they've identified a number of other comrades. Yeah, 39 others, actually.

Yeah, but they feel are equally deserving for their bravery and their valor. And so for me, at the very least, I will work to tell these stories during that time frame and beyond that. And so hopefully. And it's a wholly, quickly, though, where can people find this petition? if they want to sign it. Yes, so they can actually go online, just say Jeff at O'Shea 2020-Petition, and it will bring them to the site of the government site,

and they can sign it there, or they can go to the Facebook page of Valor in the presence of the enemy, and it is there as well. And so basically the goal is to get 100,000 names by Remembrance Day. That is the goal, the journey we're on. And I think they were at 5,000 earlier today, so they have some work cut out for them. So hopefully enough people are listening to this broadcast here today who will do a search for Jess La Rochelle petition.

Jess is J-E-E-E-R-R-O-C-H-E-L-R-O-C-H-E-L-L-E. La Rochelle for the French. And, yeah, well, bien-sue, I'm sure, that's fantastic. But yeah, hopefully people will go to this and sign this petition. But, Pauline, thank you very much for your time. And congratulations on putting party politics aside and doing something that really matters to people across all parties. I thank you.

Thank you for having this opportunity here to chat about this important issue. All right. Have a lovely day. Thank you so much. And that was Pauline Rushford, the Liberal MP, who is from Nipissing to Mischamming, who is putting forth a petition to try to write a wrong. But now we want to talk to you. I'm going to open up the phone lines here.

So do you think this is the right time to do this? Obviously back in 2021, it wasn't. The political feeling just wasn't there. Maybe it was too close to the Afghanistan war at the time. Who knows? But I want to ask you. So how much do you think politics and fear are being branded are playing into this? And whether or not this is something you would like to support.

That's coming up next. I want to talk to you about war medals. Should we be opening it up? Should we be taking a look at cases from the war in Afghanistan, reviewing them to be able to say, you know what, that was worthy of a Victoria Cross, the top honor in Canada's military. Other countries did it.

Other countries awarded the Victoria Cross to their various soldiers, to a number of them. The Americans did, the Australians did, the Brits. But Canada didn't. And was there a fear that, you know, they were gun-shy? They were like, well, I don't want to be, we don't want to give out this metal because it's the top of the top. And what if something better comes along? Well, that's why we have multiple medals.

And so you can give out multiple Victoria Crosses. It's based on what you see. And this story of Jess La Rochelle, I defy you to tell me. that that is not worthy of it. I don't know how you can. A man who was blasted to almost oblivion by an RPG, a rocket, broke his back, suffered massive internal injuries, and yet still crawled back up to his position,

which he manned for hours, and used rockets to be able to fend off the Taliban, to be able to save his comrades, and then carried the casket of his colleague in a ramp ceremony the next day. Before he got treatment, before tell me that's not worthy I dare you I did I would love to know what is then you know it would be a remarkable let's go to our our first call here um George Nessleton station

George hey how are you good thanks thanks for joining us um so what do you have to think what do you think about this well you know what there there probably hasn't been very many Canadian heroes more deserving of Victoria Cross than this young man but you know what makes me sick is a thought that Kearney's probably going to jump on this and use it as a you know

elbows up kind of thing and well you know Trudeau was elbows down on it and I know I know well that's why I was going to differentiate you aid himself and become a hero over you mark my words he's getting the kids get in the middle I you know what though you can say mark my words but he hasn't had it yet

and it has become a very politically sensitive topic. Again, I said I covered this story extensively. I tried to push for this. I spoke to the Minister of Defense. I spoke to various other people over the years, trying to get them to say, yeah, this is something we should look at because it just makes sense.

And the response always was just some middling thing. Yeah. And it was liberal, it was conservative. Nobody wanted to be branded as pro, war. This should be nonpartisan, right? Oh, I agree. 100%. It should be completely nonpartisan.

But I think the climate's right for it right now. I really do. I actually, I mean, do you care? I mean, whether or not you vote conservative or liberal, I mean, do you care who sponsors it, who pushes it for? I mean, if Carney wants to take credit for it, so long as it gets done at this point, I mean, I don't care. Do you?

No, I honestly don't care. But I, you know, I don't. think there's anybody I despise more than our current prime minister, except for our past prime minister, maybe. Well, I would say, I would argue that. I mean, Trudeau is probably the most unpopular prime minister

leaving in Canadian history, I would argue. So, yeah, but George, are you going to sign the petition? Read Carney's book, and then you tell me. Yeah, well, yeah, I know, I know. Are you going to sign the petition? Yes, absolutely. As soon as I can find it on Facebook, I'm going to it. Beautiful.

The Facebook group, the Facebook group It's called Valor in the presence of the enemy. And by the way, Valor is spelled the Canadian way. O-U. V-A-L-O-U-R. We put the U in there in Canada. George, thanks for calling. Thank you.

All right. Let's go to Tim and Hamilton. Tim, you've heard the story. Do you think we should be reopening this case? In other cases similar to it? No, I don't. Especially for the war on terror campaign. It was a ill-fated mission as to supporting the Americans on that for reasons going into Iraq,

which we were no, were completely ridiculous. And why we thought that our mission in Afghanistan was going to, you know, do anything of positivity. When we look at the country now, the country is worse off than when we went into it for it. And Canadian lives were lost as a result. I have a family member who's almost 20 years in the Canadian Armed Forces. I wouldn't have wanted him going over there. It was a complete failure of a mission. When we look at what the U.S. spent in terms of that 20 year...

Okay, well, actually, let me just cut in here because we're not going on time, and I think you made a really good point. Because you're talking about, you know, the feeling about the war on terror and how it sort of went about and how it's unpopular now. Absolutely. But it's not the actual cause, right? It's the soldier specifically. He didn't create, none of these soldiers wanted to go there.

And I could tell you story after story about how messed up it was over there because it was a horror show. It was ridiculous what went on. But it's not that. It's the actual, it's what he did. Shouldn't it be what he did? Okay, so again, what was the actual benefit of those soldiers going over there? No, it's what he did in that moment, the heroism that he did to be able to save his colleagues, the other soldiers.

That's the point. Heroism as to, so the end goal was to what, though? The end goal, it doesn't matter what the end goal is. The end goal is saving his colleagues. That's it. Tim, I'd love to debate this with you a little bit more, but we've run out of time. Again, thanks for calling, though. Again, this is, if you want to support this petition, Valor and the President of the Enemy on Facebook,

Google Jess LaReschel petition, you can support it, you can sign it, and help really just a very, very good cause. Did you know your brain releases the exact same mix of chemicals during orgasm as when you spot a UFO or break your leg? I'm David Cooper, and on the last show, curiosity is king, and discovering the science behind what makes us all tick is what? we're all about. It's where science, sex, and comedy hookup. So prepare to have your mind blown the last show with David Cooper. Subscribe and follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.