The Ben Mulroney Show - Should Canadians be worried about Alberta?

Episode Date: January 16, 2025

Should Canadians be worried about Alberta? Guest: Jean Charest, Former Premier of Quebec and Former Deputy Prime Minister Guest: Rachel Parker, Host of the Rachel Parker Show, Alberta correspondent for True North  Guest: Max Fawcett, Lead Columnist for Canada's National Observer. Based out of Calgary If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Someone whose opinion I very much want today with the backdrop of this battle that is going to happen between Canada and the United States on tariffs, as as people are lining up behind the Prime Minister for a Team Canada approach. I'm very pleased to have former Premier of Quebec, former Deputy Prime Minister and a very good friend, Mr. Jean Charest on the Ben Mulroney show. Mr. Charest, welcome to the show. Ben, thank you very much. And by the way, it's great to have you on the airway.

I'm glad to be here. I get excited every day to come into the radio station and to talk with people like you and to shepherd forth what I think is a really interesting conversation with Canadians. And there is no more interesting conversation because it affects all of us than the looming threat of terrorists by Donald Trump. And everyone, it

will be affected to the point that there's this new there's a new group that's been formed by businesses and unions across the country banding together. I think it's called the Canada US Trade Council. And so you've got politicians, you got business members, union groups, this is an all hands on deck situation. It is. And the idea here is that the on the let's call it outside of government private sector, which includes unions and groups like the business council or the chamber of commerce

and private sector associations, aluminum associations, steel, wood producers, milk producers, everyone. The idea is to create a place then where we can share information on the one hand, we're not a lobby group by the way, share information, talk to those who are in the thick of things negotiating for Canada, preparing the strategy,

giving them the feedback that they need from us on how all of this may affect our respective companies or sectors or union workers and enrich the conversation so that we're making the right decisions, which is going to be extremely important. One thing to keep in mind then is that we're dealing with not only one of the most

important economies in the world, the Americans are a superpower. So if we're going to go head to head with them, we have to be very smart. And so what we're going to do, and what do you make then, Mr. Sharkey of Daniel Smith, not walking in lockstep with the rest of Canadian political leaders. Well, it's disturbing that at this point, not everyone is on the same page. And it's difficult. I understand. I can understand why she would look at her economy. And Alberta's one, it's not the economy in Canada that's the most dependent on trade in the United States

so that your listeners just remember what the reality of all of this. I mean, the biggest export we send to the United States is energy, which includes crude oil and natural gas, but also uranium, hydroelectricity, other forms of energy. And it generates a lot of revenue for the country. We are, one of the challenges of Canada is that we are captive of a single market because we haven't built the infrastructure to be able to export our crude oil or gas

and natural LNG to other markets across the world. And so she just doesn't want to see her province and industry pay the highest price. Now, that being said, I don't think there's anyone out there saying we're going to cut off the export of energy in the United States. That's not where we're at. We should keep her powder dry and what we're going to do. We don't need to announce what we're going to do until we announce it until we do it. I mean, it's the old basic rule. I mean, if you're going to threaten to do something, you better be ready to do it. Yeah. I mean, it's the old basic rule. I mean, if you're going to threaten to do something, you better be ready

to know a little bit earlier in the show, I was speaking with Alberta based journalist Rachel Parker. And we discussed sort of where Western alienation is today and how that fits into this larger debate. I would say that the feelings of Western alienation have never been stronger in Alberta. Albertans are so frustrated with their federal government.

And that's why you've seen Alberta Premier Danielle Smith repeatedly position herself against Justin Trudeau. It's, I had to ask the question because in listening to Danielle Smith and this position that she's taken, the fact that she's been getting very close with Donald Trump closer than any other leader in Canada, the fact she's going down to the inauguration, I have to wonder whether there is a national unity threat looming on the horizon and this time not coming from Quebec. There is I think I think there is a listening and observing

of what's happening and you are I think you're quite right. If we were your intuition was right to connect with the folks on the ground in Alberta to get a very good reading what their sentiment is and something that we just can't write off. I mean, whether we just can't pretend it's not there, it is there. It reminds me of something, Ben, that your father taught all of us. I mean, there's two big responsibilities that every prime minister has. The first one is to keep the country united, which may sound obvious, but for a country like Canada, given our history,

our diversity, the geography, that's the first. And the second one is to manage the relationship of the United States. Well, here, both of them are coming to a head together. I do think we need to pay special attention to Alberta, who have felt that they have not been listened to over the last few years. One of the things we could do, looking ahead, I think I'd like to see our next federal government propose an Alberta Accord to Albertans. And what could that include? They want their own pension scheme, they want their own police force, they want to be able

to have more autonomy within to do the things they believe in. There's nothing wrong with that. We live in a federal system of government that recognizes those differences. So we're going to have to address these issues and not just sweep them under the carpet as being capricious because they're not and and take into account that sentiment if we're going to go ahead. Lastly, I want to get your thoughts on word that Christia

Freeland, who is in the race to replace Justin Trudeau, is signaling that she's going to axe the carbon tax, a tax that she stood by, endorsed, promoted up until what, today? How do you square that circle? You've been in politics since you were a young, young man. How can she survive a flip flop like that? How can she survive a flip flop like that? Well, if she does, I think she's just gonna have to be very honest about and say we did something that we thought was right, we believed in, but Canadians don't like it,

they don't accept it, and it's not working. I've worked a lot on these issues. Quebec doesn't have a carbon tax then. We didn't do that. We have a carbon trading system with California and it works. People accept it and it's efficient. And so there's more than one way to skin a cat. But one of the great lessons of the carbon tax of the Trudeau government is that you

can have on paper the best policy possible. If it doesn't have public support, there's no point. You're actually going to be worse off. So maybe that's what she should say. If she wants to do that, she should be straight up honest and say we did it because we thought it was the best thing to do and maybe it was, but Canadians don't like it. And so we're going to have to change this and find something better. Otherwise, anything else will look as you know, as just not being being disingenuous. Well, I just from my perspective, it looks like the most opportunistic thing she could possibly do. And I don't know that there is going to be an appetite from voters to accept a carbon tax free liberal party

until they are held to account at the polls for bringing it in in the first place. Well, we will soon find that out. But you're right. I mean, discovering religion at this point, you know, all of a sudden you find religion may not. But then it'll be a challenge for Mark Carney. Also, Mark Carney is left side to it because he was not formally in the government. But you know, he's been very big on these issues, but he's been a governor of a central bank.

So it'll be interesting. Apparently, he's launching today. And I worked with Mark Carney on the asset back paper. We had a crisis in Quebec on a financial instrument and got to know him and think very highly of him. So we'll we'll see what they both have to say on this. Mr. Charest, thank you so much for coming in, taking time out of your day to speak with us on the Ben Mulroney show.

I hope it's not the last time we speak. It will not be. It's a real pleasure to hear your voice. Thank you so much. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. Thank you so much for tuning in on the chorus radio network from coast to coast to coast. This entire country, our economy, our workforce, our pocketbooks are bracing for impact with the Trump administration's threat of 25% tariffs. And in anticipation, the we are marshaling our resources, we are marshaling our personnel and our, our premiers are lining up behind Justin Trudeau's plan to deal with the tariffs with retaliatory tariffs

of our own. They're marshalling behind him with the exception of one premier and that is Danielle Smith of Alberta. And she is taking issue with the idea of retaliatory tariffs on our oil and gas. Premier Doug Ford of Ontario took issue with the idea of retaliatory tariffs on our oil and gas. Premier Doug Ford of Ontario took issue with that. That's what's unique about our group. You know, everyone has their interest at heart and I respect Premier Smith. I respect that she's concerned about protecting her energy. And that's her choice. That is her choice. But I have a little

different theory. I have a different theory that protect your jurisdiction, but country comes first. Canada is a priority. And I don't believe in jeopardizing one sector or another. Premier Smith's oil is Ontario's auto sector. And to just for context, Danielle Smith posted on Twitter, a lengthy position. And the specific point that I want to bring up is Alberta will simply not agree to export tariffs on our energy or other products, nor do we support a ban on exports of these same products. We will take whatever actions are needed to protect the livelihood of Albertans from such destructive federal policies. So to discuss this from the ground is Rachel Parker, host of the Rachel

Parker show Alberta correspondent for true north, Rachel, welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Thanks so much for joining us. Good morning, Ben. So you know, what what is the perspective from everyday Albertans on Danielle Smith, essentially putting Alberta first here? Danielle Smith has a lot of support for the position that she's taken on.

She's approached this trade relationship with us president like Donald Trump, and certainly in her position of putting Alberta first. And some have accused her of putting Alberta first at the expense of the rest of Canada. So the reality is is that the rest of Canada has not looked out for Alberta, that the Premier has no choice but to put Alberta's interests first here. I think the point she made that was probably the strongest and there's a number of reasons why it's important for Alberta to look after its own interests here. But Alberta is entirely reliant on this relationship with the United States, who we sell our oil to.

And that is in part because the rest of Canada wasn't interested in expanding Alberta's energy exports across Canada, whether that was with Energy East or with the Northern Gateway. And so now we're in a position where we're entirely reliant on our exports to the US, that is most of the revenue for the Alberta government is selling that oil to the US. And so Daniel Smith has no choice but to kind of carve out our own path here.

And she's also pointed out the fact that look, Justin Trudeau was extremely selfish when he said that he was going to, you know, announce his impending resignation. Now we're in a position where we're having have an ongoing liberal leadership race that will also select a new prime minister. And we don't really have a federal government that's able to properly negotiate with the U.S. here. And so certainly she is carving out her own path. She did say that she does expect to see tariffs come into effect on January 20th, but I believe that she's playing

the long game here and that she's hoping to either get a carve out for Alberta at some point in the near future, or to get those tariffs lifted entirely. And Rachel, that that's where things get really interesting for me in the long game of all of this. And I am by no means a conspiracy theorist. However, when I look at this, and I and I see that Danielle Smith has spent probably the most time any premier has spent with Donald Trump of any leader in this country, she has

spent more time with them than anyone, she will be going down to the to the inauguration as well, they are building a personal relationship. And Donald Trump is nothing if not somebody who who works well with people on a one-on-one basis. So I see all of this. I see a carving out Alberta's priorities first. I recognize the sense of grievance and a lot of it is fair by Albertans and by the Alberta government.

And I wonder whether part of the plan here could be to leverage a potential new relationship, an Alberta US relationship to either rewrite the the current status quo with Ottawa, or take a step further and begin in earnest conversations with the United States government about a new and special relationship for Alberta and the United States government about a new and special relationship for Alberta and the United States? I don't know exactly what that looks like. But I think for Daniel Smith to have this relationship with Donald Trump, he will be the president, obviously, for the next four years, you know, Alberta is going to continue to need to sell its energy to the US. The rest of Canada have said, Hey, we're not really interested in defending Alberta, the federal government, you know, even though we are expecting an election this year, whether that's in May, whether that's in October remains to be seen. But you know, the current federal government, they're still pushing these production caps. They want net zero by 2035. Danielle Smith has said that's not possible. And again, that

is part of the reason why Danielle Smith, and she said, I would like to have a full sun, uh, team Canada approach to this relationship with the U S as we negotiate these tariffs. And she said, I'm going to continue doing that to the best of my ability, but it is extremely difficult with the federal government that is so out of step with what Alberta needs. And also with what America wants, America wants. America wants energy security. So while the Trudeau Liberals are saying, we wanna cap your production,

what we should really be saying is, hey, we can help you meet that energy security by providing you more of ethical oil from Alberta. And so we're absolutely seeing Danielle Smith go out on her own here. She's forging this relationship. And I think it could be a very good thing for Alberta in the long run, and

even for Canada, despite the claims that, you know, she's being anti team Canada here. Look, there is a very real and significant independence movement in Alberta. I think I saw a poll that a couple of years ago, that it was pulling about the idea of an independent Alberta was pulling at about 30%. I just wonder if if something like this, if the marginalization or the feeling of marginalization deepens because of the federal government not recognizing the

importance of the Alberta relationship during this trying time, and if the tariffs are applied, and if life starts getting worse, I wonder if that 30% goes up to 45% and then and I wonder what happens then. You know, Ben, it's really good question. I would say that the feelings of Western alienation have never been stronger in Alberta. Albertans are so frustrated with their federal government. And that's why you've seen Alberta Premier Danielle Smith repeatedly position herself against Justin Trudeau. Mind you, she won a provincial election here in 2023. A lot of the things that she promised to do for Albertans locally on the ground has not happened but she remains to be very popular as you saw in her recent leadership review in which

she you know succeeded with about 94 percent because of this way that she's positioned herself against Ottawa, who is really seen as a booby man right now. And so I think that those feelings of Western alienation are quite high right now. And certainly in the conservative circles that I run in, it's a very popular idea, this one of a separation movement for Alberta. That being said, we're seeing so many people move here from the rest of Canada right now. And I highly suspect that people who are moving here who are recently in Alberta don't share that sentiment of separation and Albertans I've spoken to who are who are separatists who would like to you know succeed

from the rest of Canada have said that as well they said there's so many people moving here from elsewhere in Canada from elsewhere in the world and it seems unlikely that they would be in favor of Alberta separation and now we're looking at a federal election which the conservatives seem likely to win. And I suspect that we would see that separatist movement. You think it would wane a little bit. If there was a conservative government in Ottawa, you think that that separatist movement,

while it wouldn't go away, you think it would just diminish in value and intensity. It will never go away. But I think that it will absolutely wane if we see conservative government because Albertans have been fighting very hard in their political scene for the last number of years, starting during you know, especially during COVID. We saw this big movement to oust then Alberta

Premier Jason Kenney, there was a leadership race, which saw Danielle Smith elected, then there was a general election. And so the sentiment that I get on the ground is that people are a little bit tired. And they really want a leader who's going to fight sentiment that I get on the ground is that people are a little bit tired and they really want a leader who's going to fight for them. They don't necessarily want to engage in politics as much as they have over the last number of years. And they've seen that champion in Daniel Smith.

And so even if they're not seeing all the changes that they would like to see in our tax code and in fuel tax breaks, you know, they're pretty willing to sit back and say, okay, things are going to get better. They're already better under Daniel Smith and they will be better when we have a conservative government federally. Rachel Parker, host of the Rachel Parker show and Alberta correspondent for True North. Thank you so much for adding your voice and your perspective to our show. I hope, I hope we get to talk to you again soon. Thanks, Benny. Congratulations on the new show. Today, we've been spending a lot of time talking about Danielle Smith,

the cheese stands alone, standing apart from Team Canada and the rest of Canada's premieres as they look to present a united front in the face of these looming Trump tariffs. And I've been wondering why I've been wondering about her motivation. And earlier in the show, wondering why I've been wondering about her motivation. And earlier in the show, we spoke with Rachel Parker, who's Alberta correspondent for true north, and the host of the Rachel Parker show. And she gave us her take from her political perspective. And I thought, you know, that's that's great. And it's fair, and it's hers to own. And, and, but, but that can't be the only perspective from Alberta. And so our next guest

is going to give, give us his take from a slightly different political perspective. Welcome to the show Max Fossett from Canada's National Observer Max, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me on then. Yeah, so you wrote a piece in the National Observer says Danielle Smith puts petroleum over country. What is your take of what transpired yesterday?

I mean, my take is that it's a shameful betrayal, not not just of Canada, not just of our national interests, but but also of Alberta. You know, we have a vibrant agriculture sector here, we have forestry sector, we have manufacturing. And if oil and gas was was somehow exempted from from the tariffs under the Trump administration, those would all take a much bigger hit because it would be much less pressure on American consumers. Canada's hand in the negotiations would be weaker and we would essentially be sacrificing

all these other sectors of our economy in the name of one that makes up 3.5% of our national GDP. And I think it's worth remembering, especially for people who aren't in Alberta, it's not oil that's on our provincial flag. It's wheat. You know, Alberta began as an agricultural province and it's kind of wild to me to see a government that's so willing to sell that sector down the river, just to get a carve out for oil and gas. But look, Danielle Smith, you know, she, she sold out her own political party in 2015 when she crossed the floor from the wild rose to the governing PCs is not new for her. And she has a long history

of being a lobbyist for the oil and gas industry. So it seems pretty clear to me that she is putting petroleum over country and over province. But based on what I've seen on on Twitter, there's a lot of reaction in Alberta in favor of her stance. They're saying, you know, she's, she's standing up for us, the Trudeau government has been marginalizing us and denigrating us for years. And, and so she's going to be the

voice that stands up for us. What do you say to that? Well, I would say that Twitter is never a representative sample of what real life is actually, you know, actually like, and I'm sure that she has lots of fans on social media. People hate Justin Trudeau out here. That is not news. And she has done a remarkable job, I think, of kind of tilling that field and really keeping people

angry at the federal government. But it doesn't matter how mad you are at the prime minister. I was not the world's biggest fan of Stephen Harper. I would never come out and or support things that were contrary to the national interest just because I don't like who's in charge right now. And look, it's not just me. It's Jason Kenney, former Premier of Alberta came out and said that we need to be tough with the Americans. Stephen Harper came out and said we need to be tough with the Americans. And Doug Ford, of course, is, you know, a conservative Premier and he's very clear

that it's country over province. So I understand that some people don't like Justin Trudeau. I actually think if they look at the facts in terms of how he's governed and what he's done for the oil and gas industry, they would see that it actually stacks up better than his predecessor. But that's neither here nor there. She is using this as an opportunity to advance her Alberta first, you know, maybe Alberta's independence agenda at the cost, not just of other Canadians, but of other Canadian economic sectors, businesses, industries, you name it.

Now, we are gonna talk about Western alienation and the independence movement in a moment, but I do wanna go back to something that you said that I found very interesting in your article. You said that if she, that by taking this position, Danielle Smith is making it harder to ever get any any more pipelines ever produced in this country. What do you mean? How do you get there?

So let's assume that that the Trump's tariffs and the conversation we're having reignites the you know, the case for energy east and that's entirely possible. Maybe we have another national energy program in this country where we work to phase out American oil and we replace it with Canadian oil. That's great. I support that. You're going to have a hard time selling Quebecers and Ontarians and people in the Atlantic provinces

about the importance of supporting Alberta economic interests when at the most crucial and important time for their economic interests, Alberta's premier went down to Mar-a-Lago and tried to sell them down the river. They're not going to forget that. That is a betrayal of every auto worker, every fishery worker, every forestry worker, mining worker. Their interests have all been made subservient to the oil and gas industry and to Alberta. And I just don't think Canadians are gonna forget that.

Yeah. Well, a few minutes ago on this very show, we had former Quebec premier Jean Charest on, and here's what he said about Western alienation. There is. I think there is. I mean, listening and observing what's happening. And I think you're quite right. We were your intuition was right to

connect with the folks on the ground in Alberta to get a very good reading of what their sentiment is. And something that we just can't write off. I mean, whether we just can't pretend it's not there, it is there. So after I saw what was happening yesterday at the First Minister's conference, and I heard and read what Danielle Smith said, I started looking at the past few weeks through a different lens, wondering what conversations actually were

taking place at Mar-a-Lago. And you know, Danielle Smith is building a personal relationship with the incoming president, she will be at his inauguration. She makes these statements yesterday. And I got to wonder whether there is a play to leverage the the the national unity question in favor of either a better deal with Canada, or perhaps even some new autonomous relationship between Alberta and the United States? Yeah, I think you're right to wonder that. I mean, there was a

there was a panel at a fairly recent Manning conference, you know, the the conservative conference held by pressing Manning and pressing Manning was talking about, you know, how we could leverage the national unity conversation to get a better deal for Alberta. So I don't think that that is beyond the realm of possibility at all. I know there are lots of people in Alberta who would be more than happy to join the Americans rather than stay as part of Canada. And there was a Republican Senator, Mike Lee, who said, well, you know, we don't really

want the rest of the country, but what about Alberta? They've got all that oil and gas. So I do think that's a live conversation. I think that it's the job of the premier of Alberta to shut that down immediately because doing anything else is getting pretty close to treason. It is fundamentally un-Canadian behaviour to be doing things like that. And I think she should be called out for it. I'm actually a little surprised that the leader of the official opposition in Alberta here,

Naya Menchie, hasn't been more vocal about Calling her to the carpet for for going into business for herself rather than staying in business with Canada Oh, but we've got a we've got a very interesting relationship with separatist movements in this camp in this country where we don't deem them I mean look, we've got the block Quebecois Pulling federal pensions and and they sit, I mean, technically, according to the letter of the law, what they call for is is treason. And we haven't done anything about that. So but but how do you see this playing out in the next couple of weeks? I really think it depends on what happens when Trump gets into office. You know, if

for some reason, he decides to exempt oil and gas from tariffs I think I'll you know, Daniel Smith is gonna spin that as a major win and and maybe it would be you know Like I said, it would be a major loss for Alberta's agriculture sector for forestry, but it would be a win for oil and gas I just don't think that's gonna happen. I think Trump is Determined to do these tariffs, you know, he's been spoken to by You know any number of economists any number of people who actually understand how trade relationships and tariffs work, and he does not wanna listen to them.

He wants to do this. So I think we are going to have to endure this, and we're gonna see whether he can divide and conquer. And I think Danielle Smith in some respects is volunteering herself up to be conquered and divided. And I don't think that's good for the rest of the country. I don't think that's good for any of us. And I do think it'll be interesting.

Pierre Polyev has been very silent on this, very conveniently silent. And I do think he's going to have to pick a side at some point. You know, is he going to stand with Doug Ford, Scott Moe, conservative premiers and the federal government, or is he going to stand with with little old Alberta and its oil and gas industry? I think that will be the wedge. And I do think that'll be one that the liberals will try to exploit, you know, whether whether conservatives are willing to stand up for Canada, or stand up for the oil and gas industry.

I've been speaking with Max Foss at the lead columnist for Canada's national observer based out of Calgary. Really great to have your opinion and your insights on this and your perspective. And I hope you come back again soon to the Ben Mulroney show. I'd love to thanks for it, Ben. She has partial retrograde amnesia. She can't remember the last eight years.

Tuesdays. What are the odds I get my memories back? It's the brain. Nobody knows. A new series coming to global and streaming on Stack TV. I don't know who I am now. Inspired by the unforgettable true story. But I will be a doctor again.

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