The Ben Mulroney Show - The attempt to erase Henry Dundas from our History

Episode Date: May 15, 2025

Guests and Topics: -The attempt to erase Henry Dundas from our History with Guest: Dr. Oren Amitay, Psychologist -Canadian EV sales plummeted If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Happy Thursday to everybody listening on the Chorus Radio Network. You may be listening on CFPL in London or here in Toronto on 640 Toronto. You may be listening to us on the iHeart Radio streaming app or you may have found us on your podcast platform of choice wherever you find us. However we find you, I say welcome and let's do this every single day together on the Ben Mulroney show. We've got a lot to get to, but before we do, just wanted to let you know I went to a fantastic event last night. If you're a regular listener to the show, then you know that I have a guest who joins us occasionally for political panels, sometimes for the Dilemma panel.

Her name is Jen Hollett, and she has had a really interesting career. We started together in television 25 years ago on a tiny little channel called, it was called Talk TV. The show was called The Chat Room, but they were one and the same. And it was six hours of live TV every day.

And it was a show that was ahead of its time, so ahead of its time, in fact, that nobody really watched it, but that's okay. And Jen was, well, let's say she was most comfortable on the left side of the political spectrum, and I was not. That being said, I routinely say that of all the people on the left side of the spectrum, she is the one whose company I enjoy the absolute most.

She is delightful and challenging and kind. And now she finds herself at the wal most. She is delightful and challenging and kind. And now she finds herself at the walrus.ca, which is a registered charity. It's a, it's a news organization online, but they've, they've, they've built this company as a registered charity. And, and because of that, and for many other reasons, none of the articles are pay walled and it's all free, but they hope that you donate. the articles are paywalled and it's all free but they hope that you donate and so they had a big gala last night celebrating what they call Canada's

conversation and it was just wonderful it was really really wonderful very very pleased to have been in attendance to meet some really interesting people and you're in a room with people that you're going to whose ideas you're gonna collide with right that's that's what you're gonna do some of them you're gonna agree with and some of them's what you're gonna do. Some of them you're gonna agree with and some of them absolutely not. There are some people in that room, I can promise you, I absolutely and firmly reject their worldview,

but I'm willing to debate it out with them. And that in my own way is what we're hoping to do with this show. We want this to be a place where all opinions are welcome. Some will be challenged more than others, but this is what I want this show to be. And I hope you agree because I heard from somebody yesterday who's an old colleague of mine.

He said, Ben, I tune into the Ben Mulroney show and within two minutes, I will be cheering you on and then wishing to burn you at the stake. And I said, okay, that means I'm doing my job. And so with that, let's jump in to what happened yesterday and what we can look forward to in the news today. So of course we're waiting with bated breath on Doug Ford's progressive conservative provincial budget.

And in this budget, there are plans to remove more Toronto bike lanes. And you'll remember that obviously right now, there is an injunction that is holding off on the seminal decision from the Ontario Progressive Conservatives to get rid of bike lanes on arterial roads, specifically University, Bloor, and what's the other one, Yonge Street. And now it looks like there's more money in there for more. The premier was very adamant that he's not trying to eliminate bike lanes. He just wants to get rid of them on roads where they don't make sense. And so we'll have to see if we can finally get moving on that,

because I subscribe to that worldview as well. I want bike lanes as well. I want bike lanes to exist. I want cyclists to be safe and I want the roads to be freed up because I don't care what anybody says. Those bike lanes do indeed cause congestion. I don't want to go down a rabbit hole. My producer doesn't want me to go down a rabbit hole. So we're going to leave it there. Now at a press conference yesterday, uh, Premier Doug Ford was asked about, I mean, it's an interesting thing to ask the Premier of Ontario, but he was asked about Bill C-69,

which is commonly known as the No New Pipelines Act. It just can't be business as usual. We have to move forward. We got elected on a strong mandate and we have to compete against, not just around the world, but compete against President Trump and his tariffs. The only way we can do that is

if we get rid of C-69. It doesn't allow all of us across the country to move forward in a rapid speed. I really appreciate what Prime Minister Carney mentioned yesterday. I personally

feel he's going to move quick but we all have gonna move quick, but we all have to move quick. All the premiers to get our economy going, make sure we give certainty to everyone across the country, not just our individual provinces and territories. I very much like that sentiment. That's how I feel about Bill C-69.

I think there might've been a little slip of the tongue there by the premier who said that we got elected on a strong mandate. I humbly suggest that it was the Liberal government of Canada that got elected on that mandate to get rid of C-69 and that our Premier is in fact from a different party. But that is neither here nor there.

Now a conversation, a side conversation has been bubbling up in the province of Ontario. It hasn't gone, I don't believe it's going to go very, very far, but in the province of Nova Scotia, Tim Houston's government made the bold choice to eliminate parking fees for hospitals for accessibility reasons, for cost reasons. If healthcare is taken care of by taxes and you have to go visit somebody who's availing themselves of those services, then surely it shouldn't cost you $500 a month to go in and out at a hospital.

And so there is a private members bill in Ontario led by a member of the NDP who wants to do the same thing here. I think it's a conversation worth having so that we can open our eyes to certain pressures that people are under. I don't know how far it can go. I don't know how far it will go. Right now, my opinion is that I got to think it would eliminate a lot of money that comes into the to the budget for these hospitals, money that is probably needed.

Here is what the premier had to say. I have come up with this a few times, Richard, and I got a little, to be honest, a little kickback from some of the hospitals. That is a big money generator. But it really bothers me that nurses

, they are phenomenal. They have to go there and they have to pay for their parking, which is unfortunate. But I'll never give up on that aspect. And, you know,

Halifax is a little over a million people versus 16 million. There's a big difference. But I've asked the hospitals. I did. They gave me a little

kickback. big difference, but I got, I asked the hospitals, I did. They gave me a little kickback. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of money there to be made. Can that money be optimized and spent in better ways? Absolutely, right? And maybe if we get to a point where our hospital systems and our health ministry is run as efficiently as possible so that the money that's going in

is spent in the most efficient and effective ways. Can we get there? Sure. And once we get there, can we then look at where we can save money? Sure. Are we there yet? Absolutely not. Ab- nowhere close. No one's going to tell me that the money that's going into the health care system is being spent as optimally as possible. So we do have to get there. Well, I think we've got time for one more. Doug Ford was asked about whether or not he's going to ever learn French. Well, we'll always be there for Manitobans and any other province. We'll send resources, whatever you need, Premier Canoe.

We'll be there for you. I'd learn French. Matter of fact, you can teach me French one day. But they'll accuse me of not wanting my job and going for another job if I learn French. But that's my goal. I'm going to learn French. That's not my goal to go to the other thing,

to learn French, just to clarify that. Because you guys would never twist my words, would you call it? Don't worry, I'm going to fix your little red wagon tonight when we get together. It's going to be fun. People are wondering at home, what are we talking about? Well, I know what they were talking about. There's an event every year called the Spring Fling for the Ontario Press Gallery to go in a closed door, no cameras, off the record, in a closed door, no cameras off the record, roast. The journalists roast the politicians,

the politicians roast each other. I attended last year, and it was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. I couldn't believe what I was watching. I loved it so much. That's all I'm gonna say, because I think the rules are you're not supposed to talk about it. I did not attend this year

because of the gala I was at last year, but I think that's what the Premier was referring to and it is a blast. It is a blast and I hope that what I've said doesn't prevent me. I don't think I've said anything that crossed the line. They're all very funny people and they they everyone takes it like a champ. And and that's that. The My Choice sales event is back at Nissan and the choice is yours. Choose our bestselling rogue always ready for adventure. Or the Dynamic Sentra, packed with safety features.

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global news journalists. New episodes drop every day, so take this as your personal invitation to join us on the Global National Podcast. You can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show on the Chorus Radio Network. Alright, it's time for a segment, a semi-regular segment, where we like to look at municipal governments and the inanity that lies therein. And the example that we're using today, if you've been a listener in Toronto for a long time, is the case of Henry Dundas, a staunch abolitionist who was pushing for the end of slavery

but didn't do it fast enough for certain people in the far distant future. And for that reason, his entire contribution to British history, Canadian history, well, we're just gonna get rid of it. We're just gonna get rid of it. There was an announcement by the Toronto Transit Commission

board that is voting in favour of renaming Dundas Station in favour of a, as I see it, a pathetic name, the Toronto Metropolitan University Station. And I say it's pathetic because Toronto Metropolitan University has a persnickety little reputation now of having created a hostile environment for Jewish students. So you're trading a good for a not so good. We're joined now to discuss this the ludicrous nature of this entire the tenor of this conversation and the

people involved in it. Jennifer Dundas lawyer, former Crown Prosecutor and political affairs reporter for the CBC. And her last name should give you an indication of her expertise on the topic. Jennifer, welcome to the show. Thank you, Ben. So did I say anything off base in the first part of this intro?

No, you got it bang on. Absolutely. Henry Dundas was very committed to abolition of the slave trade and slavery in fact he was the lawyer who led the legal team that convinced scotland highest court to declare that no person could be a played in scotland and at that time he was representing a black play from jamaica who was fighting for his

freedom and he did that pro bono. So that tells you where he started from early in his career. And then he built on that later by developing a comprehensive plan to end and wind down the slave trade in a way that would actually work because he was going to get buy-in from all of the players. Yes, but Jennifer, that's not good enough. Why didn't he use his time machine to come to the future and see that the people of 2025 would have been upset that he didn't have a magic wand? In fact, why didn't he use his magic wand to get rid of slavery immediately? I mean, those are the rules we're expecting people from the past to play by. They need to know what the future was and they need to have a magic wand to change their present.

Yes, it's completely unreasonable to hold people from the past to these standards, but I have to say even so what Henry Dundas did in the late 18th century stands up very well to modern group. Part of what's been missed wasn't just on abolition and slavery. There are a range of other human rights issues where he also, even by modern standards, would be considered progressive. No, listen, I like to reverse the equation and say, how would we have acquitted ourselves back then? I think most of the people doing the passing judgment today would have acquitted themselves very poorly back then.

They would have been, I don't know that they would have espoused the progressive values that they so valiantly wear on their sleeve today back then. But that's another hypothetical. So it doesn't really, it won't bear fruit. Let's talk about the here and now. Let's talk about, so what I think is just a sham of a process that is eliminating a key person

from our history, but with the Toronto Transit Commission coming out in favor of renaming Dundas Station. Talk to us about that. Okay, I'm so glad you raised that because the process here says so much about why it is we shouldn't be approaching these historical figures in the way that we tend to. So Toronto started out with these terrible allegations against Henry Dundas. He was a monster.

He was a horrible person. In fact, I heard city coun councilor use some of those words. But yesterday when the TTC actually voted on renaming that station, councilor after councilor stood up and said they did not accept those allegations. And even though they were supporting the renaming, they did not support and they were a band. They were basically severing themselves from those allegations in making this decision. And in fact, some of the counselors said they agreed with us and our submissions in defense of Henry Dinda. So we've gone through this whole process only to end up where counselors are now taking the floor and saying, I don't believe this

stuff. I'm still gonna vote for renaming. But it's not based on any allegations about the person after whom this was named. No, no, they've pulled a bait and switch. So when they realized that their desire to get what they wanted by way of besmirching his reputation was going to fail because the history was finally coming to light

that this was an honorable man worthy of celebration and commemoration. They decided to pull a bait and switch and say, no, no, there's a financial incentive here. Look at all the money we're gonna get for this. Look at this innovation hub that we're gonna be creating. And so they're dangling a carrot now, even though they failed at the first part.

But again, I then go back to what I said off the top, that TMU, in very short order, has demonstrated that it is a hotbed of anti-Semitism, and that there are Jewish students there who do not feel safe. And so you're replacing a man who should be viewed as on the pantheon of abolitionists as a hero, and you're replacing that guy with the name of a university whose name should be bringing Torontonian shame.

Exactly. And it's similar to renaming Yonge Dundas Square after Sankofa, which is a word that comes from an African tribe that was one of the foremost slave traders in Africa and colluded and cooperated entirely with the Atlantic slave trade. So these decisions are just bizarre on that level. But what I saw yesterday was councill counselors trying to have it both ways. They wanted to appease the people who want renaming of anything that has

to do with settler and colonization, at the same time appeasing those who are in favor of historical accuracy. I mean, but you can't have it both ways. What's happened here is really a travesty because it shows that these decisions are being made on the basis of very specious and unsupportable foundations and there should be some guidelines like in this entire process? Weren't there already guidelines and guardrails that they blew past? Didn't the TTC ignore its own policies in moving this idea forward? What it did was it was in total breach of its own motion, which required staff to come back with a plan for public consultation. They allowed staff just to defy that motion and come back with a recommendation to move straight to renaming. So they just blew off all of the people who were waiting to have something to say, including historians who had been waiting for a chance to speak their piece about all of this. So

they shut that down. But the larger question here is, should they even be doing this in the lack of a broad consensus among historians about what the facts are around these figures? Because there are historical figures we would want to distance ourselves from. But not every allegation of racism against a historical figure is going to be accurate. And we need to have a process to determine, is this actually valid before we start moving ahead? And Toronto never did that. No, of course not.

Toronto was just all too happy to move ahead on this. Toronto's reputation or its nickname was Toronto the Good. This is Toronto the petty. This is Toronto the ideological. This is Toronto the sad. This is Toronto the middling. And I just, this is Toronto the disappointing. Jennifer Dundas, middling and I just it's this is Toronto, the disappointing Jennifer Dundas. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for your interest. Welcome back to

the Ben Mulroney show. Thank you so much for joining us. We want to take your calls now at 416-870-6400 or 1-888-225. Talk some stark news came out about the electric vehicle market. So you'll remember there's a federal mandate that says that every car, every vehicle sold in this country by 2030 has to be a zero emission vehicle. That's the mandate. That's the rule. That's the goal. More than a goal.

That's what that's the imperative by the federal government. So what does it say and what does it mean about the industry that electric vehicle sales in Canada plummeted by 44% compared to the year before? Even though so you'll say to yourself, Okay, well, maybe people are buying fewer cars economy is not doing so well. No, no, no. New vehicles sold in Canada uptick by 9.4%. That's a big delta. That is a big delta. And you'll remember that one of the reasons

that might've happened is because the federal rebate on EVs expired on January 1st. The Ontario rebate disappeared a long time ago, which means that these cars at first blush, once you want to drive one off the lot far more expensive if it's an electric vehicle versus anything else. So if you've got an industry that only thrives when there are government rebates when it's artificially propped up and I don't say that to be negative it is what it is then you actually have an industry and I'd

love to hear from you at 416-870-6400 or 1-888-225-TALK. Did you buy an EV? Did you buy an EV prior to the rebate? If you had to do it again today without a rebate, would you make that same call? What are your thoughts at writ large, generally speaking, about the EV industry?

We're a one-car family, and it's an internal combustion engine. I've always said, nearing the end of every lease, I always say, now I'm going to look at an EV, and it's just not worth it for me. It's too much per month, and I'm not going to have the car long enough for it to pay for itself. We get three, four-year leases, so that's it. So it's really hard these days to convince somebody of the value proposition of paying more upfront But don't worry. It's gonna pay for itself over, you know a decade that is that is it's it doesn't work in lean times

We've got Tony on the line Tony. Welcome to the show Hey, Ben, I love your show. Thank you all the time I'm looking for a used car right now and there's a couple of luxury cars like E450s and BMWs and then I said well let's price out a Tesla Model S. You know despite the plastic seats instead of leather whatever I called my insurance company to see what that liability would be for for insuring this thing I fell out of my seat $4200 a year $4200 bucks a year for a Model S. fell out of my seat $4200 a year $4200 bucks a year for a model s Okay, can you do like is that for can you versus what like versus what for a

comparable internal combustion engine car for for $2,100 for a more Mercedes e450 and $1,600 I pay for a BMW 328 Yeah, I mean, that's the goose is cooked like there's no there's no way to square that circle. It's just more expensive. You look at the depreciation and the cost. Don't forget, you're buying all that gasoline you'd use in your ice vehicle up front for that battery. Right.

There you go. That's how that's how a lot of people are seeing it these days. Now let me ask you a question. If you, if times were better and you were living the life of Riley with far more money in your bank account today than you currently have, and I think that's the reality for a lot of us, would those factors be lesser in the decision that you make? Well, I'm in that position.

I'm doing well. And I thought I'd forego, you know, give it a try and do the EV thing. But it's dumbing engineering. It just doesn't make financial sense. The numbers don't speak to me. Yeah, no, I don't know that they speak to anyone right now. It's just it's just a reality. One's more expensive than the other. And it's, it's harder to keep them up. And it's hard to find places to charge them versus gas them up. Yeah, there's there are a lot of issues there. And it's our it's harder to keep them up. And it's hard to find places to charge them versus gas them up. Yeah, there's there are a lot of issues there. And simply mandating that every car in Canada that's going to be sold by 2030 will be a zero emission vehicle is living in a fantasy land. You got to take the world as it is not as you want it to be. And you cannot will it to be with a mandate. Tom, welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Hey, Ben, how's it going this morning? Going well, thank you. Screening I was in for two reputable dealerships. And to be quite honest with

you, this electric movement is just a farce. We don't have the infrastructure to support it. We live in Canada, are far greater than the range you can provide. Yeah, not Not feasible in our economy. It's definitely not feasible. You hear about the $100 million electric ferries. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. So mandating this really proposes or really boasts some sort of conspiracy theories

with our government because they're mandating it. Like it just doesn't make sense. So I won't get into the dollars and figures, but change your battery on a Tesla and let's see what it costs. There goes all your gas savings, number one. Number two, it just doesn't make any sense. I just don't see why they would do this. It just doesn't make sense. Ideology oftentimes trumps reality. Tom, thank you for the call. And like, let me be clear. I believe that, I mean, the technology in these cars is advancing so quickly that we may get to a point in short order where the range is longer, the charge

is longer, we may finally invest in infrastructure for charging. Like, all these things may happen, but they haven't happened yet. And artificially propping up an industry that clearly is being rejected by the market, at least temporarily, is going to require a rethink by the federal government. That is my two cents, which would cost a dollar if I had to pay for an electric vehicle. Okay, who do we have next? We've got George. George, welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. Hey, good morning, Ben.

Hey. Well, I'm listening to your last callers. It seems everybody just has common sense. The math on this, speaking to my account with business, it doesn't make sense to buy it. Are the numbers that the government's putting out being skewed because a lot of people get a car allowance from their companies that they work for.

So are they putting it towards an EV charger? It's not their money. They figure, let me just buy it. I mean, an EV car and I'll buy it. Average people, everybody knows you're not paying any savings because you're giving all the savings up. Everybody made the point. My thing is the government's seen that it's not selling.

So now they're forcing to get rid of combustion engines because at the end of the day, they can shut the car off on you. You want to go down that rabbit hole? Oh, no, no, I do not. I do not. I do not want to go down that rabbit hole, George. I just know. But thank you very much. We got a lot more calls to get to. So let's welcome Mike into the conversation. Hey, how are you, Ben? I'm doing well today. Good. I just wanted to put in there that I have an EV, but it's a hybrid. I didn't go with the full EV. I still got the rebate. The cost. I know the Teslas are higher on insurance and all that, but they're fully V's. Yeah. If anyone's looking to like get

into the EV or anything like that, hybrid is honestly the way to go. My hybrid, I don't have fuel and batteries. I don't have to charge it. It charges itself while I drive. I have not had any issues at all with this thing. It's cheap on insurance and I think the total cost was around $38,000. Yeah. And look, everyone I know who has a hybrid, most of the people I know have a hybrid have like a Chrysler Pacifica, right? It's the family car, because that's the one that's going all over town all day long.

And you're going to get a huge range out of that. But that is not a zero emission vehicle. And therefore, it's going to fall by the wayside. So that very popular car, very useful for families, that's going to be verboten in a little while. But anyway, thank you for highlighting that. Hybrid, I very much think hybrids are a great idea, but if it's a binary choice between zero emission vehicle

and anything else, well, you're creating a false choice that we shouldn't have to be making. We got time for a couple more. So let's welcome Rick to the Ben Mulroney show. How you doing, Rick? Morning, Ben. How are you? I'm well, thanks. I was a big fan your father so as was I. I'm sure you were. I have a electric Mustang. Okay. But about two and a half years ago, I probably would not have bought it without the rebate.

Best car I've ever owned. Yeah. Without a doubt. I have no range anxiety issues. I put a charger in my house. Yep. It cost me a dollar fifty to charge. But did you buy it with the rebate?

Yeah, that's what I said. I already bought it with the rebate. Okay. And I don't know if I would have if I didn't. Right. Yeah. I mean, I admit the fully I may not have. Yeah. That's fair. Certainly. But it certainly did make it a little easier. Yeah, of course. Well, that's why they put it in because they wanted people like yourself who may be on the fence to fall on the side of the fence of the EV. It makes perfect sense. It's a it's an inducement. And then and without it, you know, what happens

to the sales of the Ford Mustang EV? I don't know how, how well they do. Hey, thank you for your candor. I really appreciate it. We've got time for one more. And that person is Patrick. Patrick, welcome to the conversation. Hey, Ben, I just told your screener electric vehicles are like bike lanes. Nice concept, but useless. I don't know if they're useless. And bike lanes, by the way, are not as much as I have a problem with certain bike lanes. Not useless. But go on, tell me what you mean. Tell me what you mean. If you're putting bike, it's like you have electric vehicles but like everybody's been saying there's no infrastructure

for it. Yeah. Right now, maybe in 30 years, as the technology gets better, we're going to be using it more. But if I lived in New York, like I was in Hawaii for a conference, almost every vehicle I saw, like Uber, they were all electric. You live in a climate like that, that's fine. Northern Ontario with an electric vehicle, good luck putting your heater on. So I mean, there's no technology. And even construction, some of the roads and parking garages, they don't take the weight of these cars. These cars weigh a ton. They're very heavy. Oh, yeah. Wait, yeah. Wait, wait, wait. I saw a video explaining why the notion of a of a semi an EV semi is a practical impossibility. Oh, we got time for one more. Lou, welcome to show you drive us to a Tesla. Lou, welcome to the show. You drive us to a Tesla. Yeah, I've had a Model Y for a couple years. The range is not what they say. And in the

wintertime, I get half the range of what it says. It's a quick car, but I bought it. I lost $15,000 from November to January because the price dropped. And then now I can't even sell it because of the political stigma with Elon Musk. I've canceled my Cybertruck order. I was looking at the Hummers, not with Elon Musk. I've canceled my cyber truck order. I was looking at the Hummers, not interested in EV. Electric vehicles right now is like the CFL light bulb. It's a technology into something else. Until that technology changes, I would stay away from it. Hybrids, even worse. You just bought two cars. So you got to think in eight years 150,000 kilometers. Now you got a dead battery and a head gasket. Yeah. Okay. The vehicle is going to exceed the value of the vehicle.

Lou, Lou, thank you. Thank you very much for the call. You bought two vehicles. Look, I am not crapping on EVs. I think there are there are some great ones out there. It's not for me yet. And I just don't like the idea of the federal government telling me, you will not have a choice in 2030. That to me, that's no bueno.