The Ben Mulroney Show - The BC mess gets messier -- an illegal dump a Cowichan tribe members refuses to clean up

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

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The lake it is said never gives up for dead when the skies of November turn gloomy. You're listening to The Ben Mulrooney Show. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thank you so much for joining us on this Monday, November 10th. November 10th is Edmund Fitzgerald Day. And that, of course, is the Gordon Lightfoot Classic, the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. It commemorates that date in 1975 when the cargo ship SS Edmund Fitzgerald sank in Lake Superior, We are resulting in the loss of all 29 crew members.

It's the 50th anniversary. And I got to say, years ago, when I was the host of Canadian Idol, we did a Gordon Lightfoot week where Gordon Lightfoot came in and worked with all of the idols, and they've, on the, on the results day. So they do their performance day, right? And they all sing their songs individually. And then there's a big group performance at the beginning of the results show. And they performed this song. It was the most Canadian thing I've ever been involved with.

And I mean that sincerely. And again, and I keep going back. I've said this a number of times before. I was always so offended that in an effort to compete with Canadian Idol, when we were doing stuff like this, the CBC, which by the way broadcast on the other side of the street, we were in the convention center. So literally on the other side of the street was the CBC. And they at one point decided in order to compete with Canadian Idol.

and steel markets share and viewers, they went to Hollywood and bought the rights to broadcast a mini series that was executive produced by Steven Spielberg about alien abductions. Now explain to me how that is...

What was that show? I can't remember what it was called Taken or something like that. I don't know what it was. But the point is, like, what does that tell you about who was more Canadian? Who was actually driving Canadian content

into the ears and eyes of Canadians? And who was not? And then which one was taking? tax payer money and which one was not. And that to me was sort of, that's when I started seeing, okay, things are not, everything is not cool here. Everything's not copacetic. But anyway, is it something do we say happy Edmund Fitzgerald Day? It certainly wasn't a happy day 50 years ago. No. I think it's more of a commemoration, but also 50 years. Wow. Yeah. All right, the conversation about land claims and the rights of Aboriginal peoples

and the rights of property owners writ large across this country, as well as reconciliation versus decolonization. These are all topics that we are talking about tangentially. Sometimes we're focusing on them, given what the bombshell ruling by the British Columbia Supreme Court just a few weeks ago where they said the Cowichin Tribe could potentially have land claims that Trump traditional property rights in the city of Richmond, British Columbia.

And it's throwing a whole lot of things off kilter. But before we get into that, let's take a step back and let's hear from the Assembly of First Nations National Chief, Cindy Woodhouse Nepinac, about how whatever is being done in terms of budgeting for First Nations at the federal level, more can be and more should be done. The First Nations population grows at a much higher rate

than that of Canada's, so not investing to keep up is a step backwards. Instead of closing the socioeconomic gaps between First Nations and non-Indigenous Canadians, this budget is going to make things worse. So the Assembly of First Nations is asking for $50 billion over the next decade, about $50 billion a year. No, $500 billion over the next. So $500 billion, I'm sorry, $500 over the next, about $50 billion a year. And for context, it's always important to have sort of another piece of data, can know whether that's a lot of money or not. The feds gave two First Nations generally $32 billion have allocated that for the next fiscal year as part of the total federal commitment to indigenous related issues. I do not believe that that factors in what each province

would respectively give. And so it's a lot of money. Now, is it the right amount? I can't say. But no one, just in a vacuum, that is a lot of money. But now let's sort of zoom in to the Cowchin tribe that we were just describing as being central to, or at least the Genesis, ground zero for this larger conversation that we're having. The Cowichin Tribe in British Columbia is a tribe of about 5,500 members. Now, they personally, they as a tribe, have received total revenues, including own source revenue, government transfers that have exceeded $85 million annually in recent years. Government transfers likely account for a very large portion of that, $85 million for a tribe of 5,500 people. Now let's look at the impact that that ruling has had

on one business in particular. There's an industrial park within the city limits of Richmond, British Columbia that is at risk. A major Richmond developer, and they're called Montrose Properties, they're launching a legal challenge against the BC Supreme Court that ruled that a large section of Southeast Richmond

belongs to the couch and tribe under Aboriginal title. The property owners, this group, they feel blindsided, as do many private landowners. And they say that the decision by the BC Supreme Court has created uncertainty

for mortgages, for development projects, land values. Some of the companies are halting major projects over financial fears and financing fears. We've heard already that certain people have been denied mortgage reupping by their financial institution saying, we don't even know if you own the property anymore. I don't know what happens to that person in the house that they've called their own that they've paid into for years. We hear that massive investments have stopped dead cold in their tracks because they're

like, until this gets resolved, we're not putting money on an uncertain future. and this development by Montrose properties, they put $680 million into developing what used to be a landfill into a massive industrial park. And now they're being told, hey, you might not even own that park anymore. But $680 million.

The jobs involved, the investment involved, the net benefit of turning a garbage dump into industrial park. Think about the value, the taxes, that that would have, crude for the city of Richmond, which we're now being told that might not even be taxable anymore because if it goes to the Cowitz and Tribe, they probably don't pay property tax if I'm not mistaken. So these are some very real issues that are stemming from this decision. So let's recap

$85 million a year for 5,500 people. Issues like this that are popping up. And then you have what we're talking about now, a story from global news where it became clear that on the, within the confines of the borders of the couch and tribes land, they have been illegally dumping garbage for years. Let's listen to part of that story. Oh, we don't have, we don't, okay, we don't have, I apologize. So there's a pollution order was issued. There's a, it's a, it's, go find it online. The, the garbage that is being disposed in such a haphazard way, is revolting, frankly. It's the scale of it.

We're talking 290,000 cubic meters of waste, construction debris, garbage from homes, derelict RVs, plastic, metals, tires. People are describing it as a toxic soup. There's an environmental threat here. The Ministry of the Environment says the site is leaching heavy metals like arsenic and lead toward the couch and river that's endangering wildlife and the salmon habitat. There's no oversight. There's no permits.

Now, the reason I'm bringing this all together is because part of the land acknowledgments that we have been reciting like a catechism for years is because there has been this assumption and belief that First Nations have historically and for time immorium been responsible stewards of that land. And that's why we have been giving respect in the form of land. acknowledgments. That's the assumption that I was working off of. And to see something like this while the Cowichin tribe looks to benefit from all the development, and they are already benefiting to the tune of $85 million a year for a tribe of 5,500 people. And on top of that, they want all the other land and the AFN is asking to nearly double the amount of money that is already being sent. in my humble estimation, they are overplaying their hand. This is the wrong move because at some point that that feeling of respect towards the responsible stewards of the land with stories like this will evaporate.

And people will say, before we give you any more money, and if this is a symptomatic of what could happen were you to take over all of Richmond, British Columbia, we want you to open your books. we think this is way too much money to be giving to people who are doing this with the land and I humbly and respectfully submit that this is an overplaying of a hand and I do not believe it will end well for anyone. All right, up next we speak with the reporter

that broke this messy story. There we go, that's where he is. Let's face it, finding your next favorite podcast can be tough, but that's about to change. Curious cast discovery is a destination for award-winning podcasts from true crime and history, like crime beat. Documentaries like Stop, Rewind, The Lost Boy, music with Uncharted, and even the paranormal, like Dead Man's Curse, all 100% ad-free for less than the price of a coffee.

Curious Cast Discovery, available now on Apple Podcasts for just $4 a month. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show, and don't forget, you can find our podcast on Spotify, Apple Music, and Amazon Music, as well. on social media and on YouTube if you've ever asked yourself, gosh, that guy's voice, I'd love to know what the face looks like that goes with the voice. That's what YouTube is for. Also, also Instagram. Anyway, thank you very much for joining us.

Now, I misspoke before the break. I said that we had a clip of a global news piece about the Cowich and Tribe illegal dump. And it turns out we've got something even better. Right now, we have the journalist who broke the story from Global News, B.C. Paul Johnson. And Paul, welcome to the show. Ben, it's pleasure to join you. Well, I got to say this was a very surprising story to read.

It was even more disturbing to see the images associated with the scale of this illegal dump. But before we get into it, why don't you tell us the story for those who have yet to see your reporting? So it probably is good to just geographically put this in people's minds where this is happening. This is not some remote area in Canada that few people are close to who would see. This is a First Nation Reserve Cowich and Tribes land that's nestled right into a very populated part of southern Vancouver Island. It basically abuts the community of Duncan, if you know where that is. It's right next to the ecologically sensitive salmon-bearing Cowichin River and some other communities basically right across the river from this. So this is in people's backyard, literally.

And from what we understand, for some years, according to the neighbors, possibly as many as 10 years, there has been an operation that has been going on First Nations property where, and this is an important point, what appears to be non-First Nations originating waste, has been trucked onto this community and dumped there. Okay. What is essentially an unauthorized land. Okay. So let me then level set, because I want to make sure I haven't been going down. an inappropriate rabbit hole,

is the suggestion that this has been people who are not part of the Cowichin Tribe illegally dumping on their land, or is this a case of the Cowichin Tribe itself allowing for an illegal dump on their land? Because those are two very different things, and I want to make sure I am not wrongly ascribing one to the other. It's good to be careful.

It's the second point that you made here. This appears to be a case where a First Nation member of the Cowichin tribe has been allowing people to come on to property he controls there to dump in an unauthorized landfill. So the waste is originating from outside of the First Nations, but the dumping operation is alleged to be organized by this one First Nations individual. And we listed off the environmental threats to the Cowchin River and the Salmon Habitat in our previous segment. But because of the delicate relationship between First Nations and other levels of government. What sorts, if this were to happen just anywhere else in this country, you know,

there are protocols involved and there are laws that are broken and therefore it's a cause and effect sort of thing. You break the law, you find out. What is the protocol here? Now that it's been identified, we see the ills, we see the problems. What sorts of remedies can we as a, can the communities and can the police and can the environmental advocates can they bring to this situation? Well, this is where it gets complicated and why this is such a good story and why this really looks like a first class regulatory and oversight debacle by provincial and federal levels of government. So this individual has been given an order by the provincial government to stop accepting any.

more waste. We're trying to verify that he's following that. We still don't know. He's supposed to hire a qualified professional to do an assessment to figure out how to fix this problem and stop the pollution, which is confirmed to be in the groundwater and migrating toward the river. And he's supposed to come up with a plan for how to deal with this. And there are some deadlines coming up here in the next few days of November 17th is he's supposed to be getting back to the government. And correct me if I'm wrong, but correctly I'm wrong, Paul, but the government has told the person responsible to clean it up twice and he's thus far ignored those orders. Uh, but that's, that's what we believe. Okay. All right. And it's alleged that the dumping has continued, um, despite warnings,

uh, from the provincial government, where the federal government has been on this, we're still quite hazy on that, try to figure out, because they have some oversight on this as well. As a journalist, I wouldn't ask you to speculate, but I'm going to give you my theory here as to where I think this is going to go. And perhaps we can have a conversation in a way that you're comfortable. But a lot of the land acknowledgments that we have been doing over the past few years are predicated on an assumption and on a belief that the First Nations and Aboriginal groups are and have been historically responsible stewards of the land. And that's one of the reasons we repeat those land claims and land acknowledgments time and time again. So you've got something like this. Then you find out the next level up that Cowichin Tribe has been accepting about $85 million in funds, public funds over the past few years.

And then on top of that, you've got the BC land ruling by the BC Supreme Court. And then on top of that, you've got the AFN saying the amount of money that's being given to tribes across the country is not enough. we need to almost double that. It feels to me like there is going to come a point where the deference that is paid to the responsible land stewardship of First Nations will evaporate and give way to a far more critical and far more demanding, exacting public expectation. And so where this money is going and what people are doing with it. And I think a conversation is coming at a national level, at a local level,

that we have been avoiding for years. That's a deep and nuanced analysis of the situation. And I would say if all you have to do is look at some of the social media commentary and the comments that people have been making, responding to this story to see that this is hitting a nerve with a lot of people. And they're questioning a lot of the assumptions. that we have about, you know, people's approach to environmental stewardship. And I mean, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the evidence of one dump on one First Nations property

that appears to be the result of one guy is, it allows you to say that First Nations people in general don't care about the environment or aren't worthy of the acknowledgement that they're stewards of the land. I mean, that's going too far. Oh, no. And Paul, I'm not, I'm not suggesting that. What I'm suggesting is that is the timing of this and the sequence of events is what is going to give this one perhaps isolated event. We don't know. But this one event and this one flashpoint far more weight in the public discourse than it otherwise would have. Yeah. I mean, this is coming at a time. Obviously, this coincides with the story that also coincidentally involves the Cowichin tribes, which is the land claim decision

involving parts of the city of Richmond. So it's very much a hot button topic. And what I was getting at with what your comments were is I think that this, if anything, this might upend some of the thinking that we tend to have, which is sometimes fuzzy thinking where we tend to define people by categories and say this category of person, you know, you you know, behaves this way, and that category of person behaves this way. And we end up in a situation where, yeah, it could be the case that there are people who belong to First Nations who are out of compliance with basic things like the rules around

dumps. And that happens there, just as it would in the larger society of Canada. We've got people who care about the environment and follow the rules, and we've got people who scoff at the environment. And it's really worth pointing out here because there's been a lot of unfortunate comments made in social media about this, where people are generalizing about the character of First Nations people because of this one dump. Again, the waste that's here came from non-First Nations sources, most certainly.

So if people are going to make characterizations about First Nations because this has happened on their land, you also need to be fair and to say, okay, well, what about these other individuals, most certainly a lot of white people who went and dumped waste of what was clearly an illegal landfill so they could save a few bucks. And that's, and Paul, Paul Johnson of Global News, British Columbia, I thank you. I look forward to seeing where you take this story next. It's taken on national importance and we appreciate your time today. With most Subaru models, all-wheel drive come standard.

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