The Ben Mulroney Show - The BC Ostrich story

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

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When you're with Amex Plathom, you get access to exclusive. dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. It's Friday, September 26. We made it to the end of the week, and I want to thank you for joining us all along the way. We hope you had a great week. And we hope that you're gearing up for a wonderful weekend. Before we move on to some news you can use, this is news that government should be able to use. The interim parliamentary budget officer, Jason Jacques, was asked before committee about public debt charges.

And I don't know how you feel. I love these committee meetings. I never used to watch them. I don't know what I was doing with my time. But I find really good and oftentimes substantive information is revealed in these committee meetings. And then what the government chooses to do with that information is quite telling and quite revealing. It tells you about their values. It tells you about their outlook.

It tells you about their perspective. And what they do with Jason Jacques after he gave this very candid assessment of our public finances. You know, if he's, if he's marginalized or turfed, that's going to tell you what to expect from this upcoming budget. But just for context, the servicing of the public debt is $53 billion a year. It's expected to go up to $82 billion a year by 2030. So that's money that's taxes that come in, $82 billion or $53 as of right now, that is going just to service the debt. That's just so it doesn't. That's to pay the interest. And we fought long and hard in the late 80s, early 90s, all through the 90s, as a matter of fact, to slay the deficit and pay down our debt.

And we're right back into it now, probably as bad as it's ever been. So that's money to pay the service on the debt before spending a single penny on Canadians. $53 billion goes out the door, never to be seen again, and it doesn't do one iota of good to you and me, the people who gave them the $53 billion. So this is what the interim parliamentary budget officer had to say about that. Again, how alarming is that for the average Canadian for the taxpayer, because there is only one taxpayer, right? It should be very alarming, right?

These are, I don't know, I think I use the words in French, which the translators probably got really well. like stupefying, shocking, right? This is not, like, it's not a, it's not, it's not a, it's not a, it's not a, it's not a, it's not a, it's not a, it's not a, it's a, it's a really serious fiscal outlook. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, and we don't lightly use the word unsustainable, right? Uh, like, unsustainable means, hey, you don't have the option of saying, maybe I'll wait a couple of years, I'll see how things go. It means if you don't change, this is done, right? So it's very serious. If you don't change, this is done. Now, I'm just going to do a thought exercise with you. If there was an interim parliamentary climate change officer, okay, that doesn't exist.

But if it did exist, and if their role was to study the impact of the government on our actions on climate change. change as opposed to the budget, and they use that exact same expression. What do you think this government would do? Do you think they would highlight the sounding of the alarm by that climate change officer? Or do you think they would poo-poo it? I think it's a tale of two different experiences. I think because it's the budget, I think because there's always more money you can get from the taxpayer, that they'll kick the can down the road. But if it was an issue of climate change

in the environment, I'm pretty sure they would sound all the alarms. And they would drop some draconian hammers on our behavior and what we can do to change it. Again, just a thought exercise. I keep that in the back of your mind and ask yourself that question a little bit later today. Do you remember on this show yesterday? We told you about two colleges in, there was Northern College and Loyalist. And they had major deficits, really financial problems because of the international student pipeline had been cut off. And we found another example for you. And this is Conestoga College. This is brought to you by CTV News. Conestoga College in Kitchener. This is how bad things have gotten for them. They're offering exit tickets to more than half,

half of their 700 full-time faculty members. These are voluntary exit incentive programs, targeting staff in areas that are at risk of being discontinued due to the school's declining enrollment. So of its 700 full-time, 373 full-time employees, including librarians, counselors. They've received a memo with details on the offer and the reasons behind it.

Now, look, we talked about it yesterday. It feels to me like the governments, it's almost like drug addiction. These schools got hooked on a supply of students that come in with a higher tuition cost twice, sometimes three times as much. And they got hooked on this.

They got hooked. And when you get hooked on something as addictive as that, it's really hard to wean yourself off. And sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. And so what's going to happen to Conistoga with a hollowed-out faculty? How are they going to be able to provide any real and meaningful education moving forward? I don't know. But this is the rubber meeting the road.

This is when the effects of sort of poorly planned decisions at the federal level, this is the knock-on effect at the provincial level, the education level. And so how this shakes out, I do not know. but Northern College loyalists and now Conestoga. We're getting more and more details about how dysfunctional things have been for so long and the effects that we're now, the hangover that we're all now waking up for after years of a party. Okay, so how can we save money? Everybody's looking to save money.

The parliamentary budget office is telling us to save money. We're seeing what's happening at these universities and colleges. They're being forced to trim their budgets. And so the question that a lot of us always ask is what's better to do, rent a house or buy a house and typically back in good good times we would always err on the if you can if you have the ability get into the home buying market as soon as you can get on that ladder and so you can earn your way up higher and higher until you're in your forever home that was the goal that was the promise that was the bargain that we struck as as a as a country well now

there's a study that's been done that says it's not as cut and dried as that there was a a study by Easy, which is a renovation company, they compared 10-year costs for renting versus buying in 25 different Canadian cities. And the results were, in seven of those cities, renters ended up better off than buyers over the course of a decade. For example, in Mississauga,

if you rent a two-bedroom, it saves you $13,000 over 10 years. In Abbotsford, BC, you're saving about $118,000 over 10 years if you rent. That's crazy. Why would you buy? You're saving $100,000 in like $10,000 a year. In PEI, modest buying advantage,

Nova Scotia, buying dominates, owners save over $100,000 over a decade. So it really does depend. Now, there are some caveats, right? Renters don't build equity in long-term wealth. That's what we talked about off the top. Our rent inflation is risk. Rent inflation risk is real, rather.

owners get stability, the ability to renovate, and retirement nest egg, which kind of goes hand in hand with the long-term wealth and building equity. But renters benefit for mobility and they can invest money elsewhere. So again, the fact that it is not as cut and dried anymore, the fact is far more nuanced than it was. But the question you have to ask yourself is, do I mean, do I have the money to buy? And if you don't have the money to buy, it's a non-starter. And more and more people for whom it's just not even an option.

I mean, we're positing in this study that this is for people for whom both are an option. And there's so many people now because the rates have been what they are and people have, well, they've gone through their savings, that they're at their house poor. Yeah, house poor. I mean, so is it worth it for you to be able to get into something early enough and be house poor or be able to rent something for less money, not have the equity later on in life? which is important, but then to be able to enjoy life. Yeah, but if you plan properly and if you do invest in other things,

then perhaps you're setting yourself up for home ownership later on down the line. It's a possibility. I just think we're discussing this in a time where there are a lot of people listening saying, I would love to have the opportunity to either do one or the other. I don't, so I'm a renter by, not by choice, but out of necessity. But there's also the fact that you have, so we have to get going, but you have people have, they can't sell their houses right now because the market. Exactly.

Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show, and I've got to be honest, in the short time that we have been doing this show, I haven't felt a sense of passion from people who were writing in saying, you've got to cover this story, you've got to cover the story, more than this story that we're about to talk about right now. And it is the story of what to do with a farm of 400 some odd ostriches in British Columbia, Edgewood British Columbia, where a while back, some of them tested positive for avian flu. There was a push to have the entire, the entire, what's a grouping of it, heard, called, pardon me? Oh, it's a flock, yeah, probably a flock of, I don't know, we'll find out in a moment. The Supreme Court has pressed pause. Canada's top court issued a temporary stay halting the cull of 400 ostriches at this farm.

To talk about this and so much more about the story, we're joined by Nancy MacDonald, the Globe and Mail national reporter. Nancy, thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having me. All right. So in your entire life, did you ever think that you would learn this much about ostriches while being a national reporter in Canada? No, I think I've done about 10 stories about these birds.

so far. And I think herd is acceptable. I've heard both. Hurd and flock. Don't worry about that. Yes. Dave Spargalagal. He was the one who got that one right for us. But this is quite unique. I mean, this is, it's really touched an emotion in so many people.

I'm looking at a picture right here of the co-owners of this farm. Joyous and tears running down their faces at the news that this didn't have, that the call did not have to happen. So talk Talk to us about how we got to this point.

Okay, so it starts last December when a few of the animals came down with avian flu. In the end of, I think, 69 died. And they were ordered, culled at that point. And the farmers have been fighting basically since then to try to get that cull order reversed. They say the animals hadn't been sick since January. And, you know, they do look to be dancing around. They look healthy. But scientists say, you know, they may look healthy, but they still have this infection.

And so what the farmers are asking for is for the birds to be tested. Like, let's find out if they've actually got this flu before we go ahead. And the Canadian agency that looks after this says, no, we can't, even to test the animals would be putting, you know, labs at risk. And so there's the standoff that's happening. And it's now up to the Supreme Court to decide whether or not to hear the case. Now, where's the validity in that that the simple testing for the avian flu is dangerous? That to me seems a little odd, but again, I don't know. No, I mean, if you talk to a virologist, some say that is odd and that they can't do this safely.

And so that's one of the arguments that the farmers are making is, you know, we can do this safely. Come on, let's do this. And I think the reason there's so much emotion behind this is these farmers, Farmers have had these animals for decades now. They know them by name. They know them by personality. And so it's not like having a flock of chickens or something. These are part of their family is what they say.

But they are farmed to what end? So they used to be farmed for eggs and meat. But during the COVID, the last butcher in the area closed down. And so they partnered with a university in Japan and Tokyo. and they're now making eggs for research for this university. Oh, so, so these, these, um, these, um, these ostriches are living out their lives, uh, and safely. They're not, they're not being, they're not being, they're not being, uh, they're not being,

eaten. They're not, you know, there's no letter being made of them. They are being studied. Yeah. And from what I've, I've seen, I mean, the, the emotion that people have. So, uh, there, there, there've been protests, there've been people who are showing up to defend and to support this farm and the ostriches. So what happens next?

So right now we're, so the Supreme Court has issued a stay. And so the agents that have gone in there to call the animals have had to kind of put down their, their arms. And so now we're waiting for the Supreme Court to decide whether or not to hear this case. Yeah. And the odds are not good. I think the Supreme Court turns down 90% of applicants. And so it has to be, there's a really high bar that it has to meet.

And it has to basically be an issue of national importance. So that's what the Supreme Court is deciding right now is this issue so important that we have to weigh in on it. And can you give us a- Within like a month or so. We'll know in a month or so. So they've got about a month to prepare is when you say the people went in to call the herd, a lot of people, we know what culling means in terms of what the end is, but what is the process by which the herd is called?

How do they do it? I mean, the food inspection agency, the agency that's overseeing all of this has been very quiet. They're not really saying much, and they haven't said how they're going to do it, but they've put up straw bales to kind of herd them into place. And the thinking is they will either be darted and then euthanized by hand or shot.

Oh, my God. But this is just speculation. No one actually knows. And if that side gets their way, all 400 of them will just be... All 400 would have to go, yeah. And I've got to ask, because it's the next to follow-up question. Who bears the cost of this? So there is...

So the agency will have to pay for this. Yeah. And the farmers will be compensated. I think the compensation is $3,000. per bird, but they say this just doesn't cover the cost of what they've put into these animals, and it's just not sufficient, is what they bargained. And would they, the owners of the farm, are they prepared to bear the cost of of the testing of the animals?

That's an excellent question. I haven't asked them that, but I think they would. I mean, this is something they're so passionate about. We've got a ton of supporters now, who I'm sure would be willing to chip in. Yeah, so they could say, and again, I keep going back to that justification that the very testing puts the labs at risk. I mean, I don't know much, but I've watched enough movies that when you're testing labs and everyone's wearing those, the jumpsuits that protect them from all that stuff. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. That's what the agency says, but others have come out and said, no, that's not true.

But they can't do this safely. And the policy is the policy from those who are wanting the culture. Is this so far, did they do anything that ran afoul of the rules or were they simply following the evidence that led them to that conclusion? This is the agency. Yeah, the agency, yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's this really flat policy that we apply to bird flu and it's any bird that comes into contact with the surer that becomes infected. Sorry, any farm with infected birds, you have to stamp it out. and so the animals on that farm has to be killed.

There's no nuance to that policy at all, no. Except, you know, in the United States, cows have got it. And they're not, they don't need to be stamped out. The U.S. has decided that these animals can be, can live through, you know, even if the farm was infected, they can stay. Well, that's, you know, that's interesting. That, to me, that could constitute an issue of national importance. I mean, how do we deal with these issues that, that, you know,

we have been told our issues of public health. and public health as it can be an issue of national importance so therein lies the answer perhaps. Yeah, the flu is jumping from mammal species

eventually we're going to have to face in Canada. We're going to have to decide to do when cows become infected when other mammal species become infected. So you're right, that could be the issue there.

Well, Nancy McDonald, thank you so much. I'm sure the story has yet to be concluded and we know that you'll be chronicling it for the Globe and Mail. We hope you come back and share it with our audience.

Thanks, Ben. Thank you so much. Yeah. So honestly, in all the stories that we've covered on this show or the stories that we had yet to cover, this was the one that we got the most conversation from, that people would text and email and send direct messages. You've got to cover this.

You've got to cover this. I got multiple calls during other segments talking about, you know, speed cameras or whatever it is from people saying, you know, could you guys do something on the ostriches? Yeah. I was like, really? Yeah. You care about this?

Yeah. Okay, sure. No, it's a heck of a story. It's a heck of a story. And there is some sort of imagery about the government having their head in the sand that I'm glad we didn't touch because that's a little too well on the nose. But anyway, I do thank our guests for joining us. A kidnapped child whispers dark secrets from his past in a language he no longer understands. But a lost cassette will reveal the ugly truth.

From Curious Cast and Blanchard House comes a cross-continental Odyssey to recover a stolen past. This is Stop Rewind, The Lost Boy, available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcast. Podcasts.