The Ben Mulroney Show - The City of Toronto served with a lawsuit regarding shelters

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

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your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com slash Mulruni. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. I want to thank you so much for joining us. It is, what's the date today? Today is the October 6th. It's the day before a day that will live in infamy, October 7th.

Before we get into heavy news, before we get into any heavy news, we got to cleanse the palate. We've got a lot of, we got a lot of heavy, hard news to get to. Some of it is head-shakingly stupid, like head-shakingly stupid. I can't believe some of the stuff we're talking about today. I'm actually quite, I started the day optimistic. It's Monday. You want to start, you know, after the Blue Jays' incredible weekend, which we're going to talk

about in a second, I wanted to start the day full of optimism, wind in my sales. And the news has already beaten me down. It's already beating me down. And you're coming with me, Toronto. I'm bringing you down with me. But not until we spend a moment talking about a perfect sports weekend. I mean, it was perfect. Perfect.

The weather. It wasn't just a, it wasn't like a, pardon the rude expression, the Indian summer, where the day is nice and as soon as the sun goes down, it's, you know, two degrees. It was a summer weekend. And the Rogers Center was full. my producer Mike was at a game was at the Saturday game oh yeah he was at the game my brother was at the game yesterday I watched both

it felt like felt like the city had something to celebrate that we can all get behind it yeah I went to the Saturday game and sat in the sun didn't realize I was on the sunside got a little bit of a sunburn you can tell yeah you can definitely tell but it was perfect and they everything everything that they did like every part of the game was perfect it was unbelievable it was crazy the atmosphere there i've never been to a jays game like

that and and yesterday yesterday was the the perfect wrap up to it to two days they did everything they were supposed to do they didn't just win they won in decisive decisive fashion let's listen to vladimir guerrero putting a like a stamp on on the weekend let's not forget up until this weekend, he was a cold fish. He was a dead fish in the playoffs. He was a waste of space. And then this weekend, he decided to let everybody know

Vladimir Guerrero came to play. Anyway, we have audio of him hitting a grand slam. Wait, oh, I can't hear it. Wait, hold on. There's a problem with my audio. I can't hear anything. I didn't hear anything there. You heard it? You heard it?

I heard that. Because in my earphones, I heard nothing. Okay, so we played it. Okay, good. So we played it, yes. Okay, well, okay, let's test some more audio and let's see if I can hear it. Otherwise, I'm going to have to switch to cans. One of my sort of the add-ons benefits of the Jay's winning in such a decisive fashion

is watching Yankee fans who I believe feel entitled to space being made for them in the playoffs. They're the Yankees. They're the Yankees. And so they have this expectation that every year they're going to compete. And every year they're going to let everybody know that they're the Yankees. That's not happening this year. Now, not to say it's over. It's not over till it's over.

So there are a couple of fans. What I love about Yankee fans is they will broadcast themselves on social media in real time watching the game. And when you have a result like we had over the weekend, it's worth noting. So let's listen to their depression grow in real time. But this is actually right before, right before Vladdy hit the home run. Okay. And so they're predicting it in their, it's hearing depression in real time. Yeah.

I think there's going to be a grand slam. He's waiting for a fastball. And I think he's going to get it. Grand slam? Oh, yeah, you called it. Yeah. That's it. Like, clip that.

That was the most obvious Grand Slam I've ever seen. He literally predicted a Grand Slam and was nonplussed by his prestigitation. Like, he just predict, and his buddy didn't even, like, oh yeah, you just predicted a Grand Slam. Yeah, that happened. Yeah, that happened. Pierre Poliyev was at the game. He was in the 500 level. I bet you he could have gotten into a box, but want to sit amongst the people.

And I had better seats than him. Yeah, you did. You did. But look, so that was the dream of the weekend. That was the potential of Toronto. Everybody coming together under the banner of the Blue Jays, celebrating what we can do when we marshal our resources and we focus on a goal. That is, that's, that's the best version of Toronto inside the Rogers Center.

Also, my humble opinion, it shouldn't be the Rogers Center anymore. They go back to Skydome or call it Rogers Park or Rogers Field. Because it's a baseball field now. It's a baseball park now. It is not some clearinghouse where you can do anything and everything under the dome. That's my, also Roger's Center, it's just, it's confusing. It should be Rogers Park or Rogers Field. You like that idea?

I like that idea. It's reasonable, but they'll never do it because you have to change over every name and everything. It's an opportunity. And a rebrand, look, we're talking about one of the weirdest rebrands ever later in the show today. Maxwell House, after 133 years, is changing their name. We're going to tell you why. And we're going to tell you what they're changing it to. It's idiotic.

It's idiotic. It's up there with Cracker Barrel, getting rid of the dude. But as you can see, I'm crashing down, crashing back down into reality because the news of the day is soul-crushing. And it's not one story, it's every story, almost every story that we're going to get to. And we're going to start with Nuis Blanche. New Blanche is supposed to be a celebration of life in this city, artistic expression in the city. And we talked about it last week, how there was an American indigenous artist who was given essentially the signature spot for Nui Blanche. New Blanche is a night where after the sun goes down, people can.

enjoy art installations all over the city by walking around and enjoying the outdoor life outdoors in Toronto. It's actually a great initiative and I've done it before. But of course with everything today, art has always been political. Art has always been provocative. I'm not going to say here that I'm not going to sit here and tell you that some art is good and some art is bad. I don't know. I know what I like, but that's it. And art is supposed to spark conversation. We're certainly having conversation today. But what does it say? If you believe, that public spaces and public buildings are symbols, right? Far more than anything else.

Like, they are symbols. They are supposed to represent something. They're supposed to evoke something in you, right? What does it say that the city allowed for right below the mayor's office for an indigenous artist from the United States to take over a space and push out controversial, I mean, I think they're woke talking points. Woke, that's the best way I can say it, you know. English is a foreign language. English is a foreign language.

Dude, you wrote it in English, man. And love is resistance or something like that. And also revolution. Revolution, yeah. Like all the romanticists. And this is a person who believes that Western art history is colonial propaganda, some nonsense. Like, buzzword, buzzword, buzzword,

word, salad, word salad, word, salad, nonsense. Like nonsense. We've been going through this for almost a decade. I'm sick and tired of it. And I just, my humble suggestion to thought exercise for you, if I were an artist and I went to Nui Blanche and I went to the city and I said, I want to put

up an art installation that says, Blue Lives Matter. I want to celebrate the police. Blue Lives Matter. What the heck do you think? would happen. Do you think I'd get a spot like that? Or do you think I'd be shouted down? Do you think that, because we talked about last week, we talked about the permission structure that we have created in this city and indeed in this country where people can

get away with saying the most insane things about Jews, about Israel, about capitalism, about Canada, the most insanely offensive things. There is a permission structure on the left where you get away with that. Not only do you get away with it, but the city is going to pay you to do it. And you try to say even something remotely analogous on the right side, good luck. Good luck. It would never happen. My God, we haven't gotten to anything we're going to talk about.

We've got so much more to talk about. Including, oh my God, my brain is going to explode. Our good friends at Dufferin Grove, the homeless encampment that was kicked out once. They came back. They were kicked out a second time. Well, now they're back, but now they're self-identifying as indigenous people. And they've lit a sacred fire, quote, unquote. And they've been protected by security guards, our good friend Karim Assad and her team

who go out and record and record. It sounds like there's a seven-minute video that encapsulates the nonsense that we have been living in the city of Toronto. You've got to go see it. We'll talk about it a little bit later. on the show. They're self-identifying as indigenous. We're going to get to that right after break.

Don't go anywhere. This is the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. All right. I'm trying to focus. But there's so much news. And we didn't get to nearly as much of it off the top as we wanted to. I think because we spent a lot of time talking about how good.

great the jays were and congratulations the jays in here go down to the bronx and win another one and take us to the championship series we appreciate that we appreciate you um we wanted to talk about the insanity the inanity that is the circus of duffron grove the encampment of homeless people who refused to leave and then they had a list of demands that included they wanted 800 square feet that the city and by the city you and i would pay for each right and they wanted in perpetuity, and they didn't just want to take the first place available. They wanted options, you know, like on the show House Hunters, where they see three places and they picked the one they love.

And they wanted friends to bring them dildos, right? That was one. And they wanted, what did they want? Oh, in their apartments, they wanted ice makers, but not any type of ice makers. They wanted crushed ice makers, right? This is the level. People talk about privilege, and they talk about entitlement. It's not.

Privilege doesn't exist for people like me anymore. I have the privilege going to work and paying taxes. The privilege exists on the other side of people who think that they can make demands like this. Well, they were finally decamped a second time. They're back now. But now they are emboldened and protected because now they self-identify as indigenous. And our good friend Karim Assad and her team who go about recording events like this for the public record so that we all know what's going on. We all know where the wind is blowing.

this is a little bit of that interaction So they are identifying themselves as indigenous So it's not so So don't do that they'll make us leave That's all It's a priority safety So please Say good fire, extremely disrespectful to be filming

Please leave Okay I'm asking you to leave nice thing What's going on here? Who's running this park? Nobody There we go You know, end it there. Who's running this park?

Answer, nobody. There you go. That's all you need to know about that. Who's running anything around here? Well, we've got a guest who's joined us now, who is, I believe, knows who's running things. Because the New Toronto Initiative that is run by, Dan, you run the New Toronto Initiative? I'm part of the New Toronto Initiative. Okay, so we want to talk about the New Toronto Initiative.

about the homeless shelters in this city. The city has a bold, ambitious plan to increase the number of shelters all over the city. The problem is they may have blown past their own checks and balances. They may have broken the law. They may have run afoul of the very process and processes that we have in place to ensure that these things are done right. So much so that the New Toronto Initiative has decided it's time to sue those who they believe have broken those rules. And Dan, thank you so much for being here. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Okay. So what, first of all, let's let our listeners know. What's the New Toronto initiative?

It's a community association. The residents of New Toronto have come together to form a representative group because the city isn't representing us. Counselor Morley has completely abandoned us. She's got her own zealid initiatives and she refuses to engage or listen to us in any way, shape, perform. So we've had to step up and form our own little committee. Okay, you formed your own committee and you're, and this, and it's this committee that is suing, who are you suing? Who's, who's suing who? We're suing, uh, we're suing, uh, the city of Toronto, Amber Morley and Bruce Davis, who's the, uh, as he states that the chief instigator at public progress. That's actually on his website. So, sorry, so, okay, so we know who Amber Morley is. She, she's, she's,

she's the city councilor. And you're suing the city writ large. Yes. And who's this other guy? Well, Bruce Davis, President of Public Progress, they're the organization who basically works with the city to set a lot of these homeless shelters up. In fact, it's interesting that Bruce Davis is the one who created the scheme for the counselors to push this decisions like this out of the hands of counselors. So they're elected officials. They're the ones the buck's supposed to stop with them. Especially important decisions. And this guy came up with a work. around to ensure that they could say this had nothing to do with me? Right. Don't have the counselors do this. You should put this out to private companies so they can handle the whole

thing, work on it, develop it. And the strange thing is, his company gets a lot of no-bid contracts. That's very strange. So he's being sued to, okay. And so what does the lawsuit allege? And what are you hoping is the ultimate rectification here? Well, we're alleging that. you know, the rules, the laws were not followed, that they've been basically doing things in secret. They haven't engaged at all. I mean, zero with the residents of New Toronto. What we're really looking for is an injunction to stop this process.

And let's go back to square one. And let's come together and discuss this. Let's have a conversation of how we can really support these people who need our help. And that's the most offensive part of this. I don't like being talked to like I'm an idiot. and this notion that standing up against this flawed, corrupt BS process that has allowed for these shelters to come into existence is somehow I'm against homeless people. I'm against helping homeless people. That's nonsense.

It's bad faith and it's juvenile. And I feel insulted when people suggest that. Well, I think if you have a look at New Toronto, I mean, anyone that would even suggest we're NIMBY, you're ignorant sitting on the couch. You haven't done your homework. Our area of Toronto provides more support services to people in need than almost any other area in all of Toronto. We are overwhelmed and why they are looking to push a shelter at all costs into a residential street that is so much smaller than their own minimum requirements. So their minimum requirements calls for 15,000 square feet.

Yeah. We have nine. So why are you pushing it into a spot that it just can't take it? Yeah. And so, okay, so how does this work? Like, talk to me about the process by which I had, how do you serve the city? Like I understand. The city was easier to serve, I think.

It was the other ones that were running. Oh, really? Did they, yeah, because I was made aware of this late last week. Yeah. And then I kept hearing, okay, they're pushing it because we can't find Amber Morley. have you found her? Is Game of Where's Waldo? Well, she's been in office for, what, two or three years now?

We still haven't found her for anything. So it's like, I don't know what to say. I mean, but what happens come election time next year? Because she's going to have to be somewhere. Like, how do you make sure that somebody like this knows that they have run a foul of the trust of the people of her award? You've got to get out the vote. Yeah. It's the only thing.

If you look at the last municipal election, less than 30% voted. Yeah. If you look at the last Scarborough. How do you get to the other, the 70% out? It's through organizations like us. Yeah. Where we're going to hit the streets. Yeah.

We're going to start engaging with residents. We're going to let them know where this city government is taking us, and it's the completely wrong direction. And that we need to find our voice again and have something to say and direct what happens in our own communities. Let's talk, let's go back to the homeless shelters themselves. Because as you and I think we both. agree. We need resources to help those who need that help the most. Absolutely. But, you know,

I think there are probably a lot of homeless people out there. Not, you know, drug addiction and homelessness, they overlap, those Venn diagrams overlap to a certain extent. But they are not one and the same. There are plenty of people who are homeless for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with drugs or mental health issues. And because this city has been so generous with handing out safe use like they hand out crack pipes and they hand out like if I were somebody who was down on my luck and needed a place to stay I don't know that I would go somewhere where it's you know you walk through the door and you do not know what you're going to encounter or if you can even walk through the door safely yeah exactly make it that far yeah like where where they're

proposing this shelter there's going to be virtually no room between the building and the sidewalk so if you want it for anyone to safely walk by yeah it's like are you going to feel comfortable in your own neighborhood. Someone, if you look at these vulnerable communities, they do need support beyond just a bed. They need to know that they can, you know, build that foundation back underneath them. And if you're not going to create a safe environment for them,

you don't have hope of helping them. Now, you're going to stick around after the break and then we'll take some calls together if that's all right. But when we come back, I want to ask you about this shelter in particular, the 66 3rd Street in New Toronto, because it's pretty close to some of it. places that you think it shouldn't be close to, correct? Very close.

So we're going to talk about that when we come back. Don't go anywhere. This is the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. He and that organization, well, you're not personally doing it, but the New Toronto Initiative is suing the city, Amber Morley, and the instigator-in-chief whose name escapes me right now. Oh, that's Bruce Davis.

Yeah, Bruce Davis for their cavalier and possibly illegal. I don't know if it's illegal. Is that, is that, is it that was being alleged? Pardon me? That's what we want to determine. But you're alleging that it's illegal. Well, they've obviously done things to either ignore guidelines,

their own standards. I mean, in terms of the, in terms of the, where the city has decided to build a new shelter, and the one that were specifically, talking about is the 66 third street in New Toronto. So talk to me about that area, talk to me about that neighborhood, and talk to me about the shelter and how disruptive it's going to be. Well, I mean, it's a beautiful residential neighborhood. They're putting this large building. We're still not even sure how big and everything is going to be because they seem to change it

on a daily basis. It's going to be literally right across the street from one elementary school, a few blocks from another elementary school, and literally jumping distance to a senior center. So, like, you can almost reach out and touch it. And you've got daycares, everything around, a beautiful park right down the street. And we don't know if this is going to be, because the city seems to have their own rules, even though the government has, the provincial government has come down pretty hard on the municipal government saying, you know, no safe supply within certain, a certain distance. The city has decided to do their own thing, right?

And they're handing out crack pipes and they're handing out heroin needles and they're handing out all that stuff. whenever they want at, and we as the taxpayers are incurring that cost and we don't know how much it costs. Well, you look at something like Duff and Grove. You just finished talking about how they don't follow the rules. Who's their mentor? The city. The city's mentoring them on don't follow the rules.

Do whatever you want. If it says this, do something else. They're setting the standard. Yeah. Well, listen, I'm glad you're here because we're going to take a few calls and hopefully get some answers for the people, the listeners of the Ben Mulrooney. So we're going to start with Helen. Helen, good morning. Happy Monday to you.

Good morning. Thanks for taking my call. I live in South of Tobacco, and I know in our local paper, when this shelter was first announced, it said it was housing for seniors. So I'm just wondering if we're spending $625 million to build one shelter, why are we not making a permanent housing? Well, yeah, I don't know if it's $625 million for, it probably can't be that for one shelter. that's the, that's, that's, that's the cost of the, the Rogers Center. So I suspect that's not,

that's probably for the entire thing, or maybe $625,000. But do you, do you remember that? Was it, was it, was it originally? Um, it's definitely in the millions, but, and it's money they don't have. And thank you, Helen, we appreciate it. But, but you, like, as, I think what Helen was suggesting is, when they brought this up, it was supposed to be, it was supposed to be, it was supposed to be housing for seniors and then. The story changes literally, yeah, week to week. Yeah. Whatever accommodates their narrative, they change the story. Yeah. Yeah. All right, let's, let's, let's, let's bring Cody into the conversation. Cody, thank you so much for calling. Hey, thanks, man. Thanks for having me. As Dan just said, you know, they change the narrative when it doesn't,

when it doesn't fit what they, what they want. You know, there's a pattern at City Hall and especially, you know, I live in a topical lake shore and especially with our counselor, Amber Morley, how she lacks any empathy or direction for the entire riding. He barricates herself in her office. She ignores constituents on a daily basis. this is the second lawsuit she's now facing from her community. Yeah, that's no, but incumbency is a hell of a thing. And thank you very much, Cody. And I'll invite, I'll invite everybody else to give us a call.

416870-6400 or 1-3-8-2-25 talk. We've got a great guest here on a great issue that's, yes, it's specific to that community, but it's endemic of a larger problem across the city. So give us a call 416870-6400 or 1-3-8-2-25. talk and we've got Dan Perdue here to answer your questions. Yeah, incumbency is a hell of a superpower, right?

And Amber Morley, as much as she is in the newspapers and in the press for not necessarily the right reasons, if you're the sitting counselor, you've got to, no matter how unpopular you are, you've got a shot at winning. I've got to challenge that. Yeah?

I think when you only get less than 30% of the vote out, you've got, it doesn't take, much for one side to organize. Yeah. So I don't know if that really is the superpower that she's a sitting counselor or it's just the organized to keep them in. We're going to be organized this time. Yeah. Yeah. And in what way? What are you going to do now? What are you going to do this, this time around that, that just wasn't on the table four years ago or three years ago? I think you're going to see a force of people out on the streets, banging on doors,

interacting with people, talking to people, engaging people, getting to know people, and building that trust where those people will say, yeah, we've got to listen to them, we've got to vote in the right direction. And listen, I want to live in that world as well. But what I'm seeing, what I'm not seeing, Dan, is regular everyday people exercising their democratic right to protest at City Hall. Like I see protests at City Hall, but it's always coming from a certain perspective. I'm not seeing people getting up in arms when they hear our mayor suggesting that it's

time to hike our property tax again like where where the hundreds of where the thousands of people protesting that letting her know right outside her office that that that is a decision that we don't stand for and so i'm not seeing that today and i think that a lot of groups have been very or not even i wouldn't even say groups a lot of people have been very passive up to this point they have not been organized and i think that in itself is the changing trend yeah that people in communities are starting to become more organized we're becoming connected with more parts of the city yeah and you will start to see those protests. All right.

Well, and I hope so because that's, we need, in the absence of it, people like the mayor can be forgiven to think, well, nobody's complaining. So, you know, if they were really angry, they would be outside my office right now.

They would be chanting. They'd come over with some slogans. And we haven't seen that. Toronto is a place that, you know, you get along, go along to get along, you know.

And we've got a lot of people who don't vote, because I think they don't vote, because they're so busy just trying to get by. I think they just become complacent. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to break that. Yeah.

Okay. So what's the next? As we wait for this, oh, actually, we got Nadine. Okay, let's welcome Nadine to the conversation. Hello, Nadine. Oh, hi, Ben.

Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Absolutely. I'm just wanting to comment on this 663rd Street shelter. Unfortunately, I live nine meters from the site. You live nine meters from the site. meters from the site. So tell me what you mean by that. Okay. Well, I live in a Toronto senior housing apartment building. Oh, you're across the laneway. Yes. Really? Yeah, because Dan was just

telling us about that. Yeah. And the city is now spending it so that they're telling us that the shelter will be for seniors. Okay, well, first of all, I don't believe that for a minute. And second of all, the term senior doesn't really appease me, even though I M1 and our building is a lovely building with the exception of one senior tenant who is a resident drug dealer and has been in this building for two years causing total chaos. You've got what, you've got a senior drug dealer. Yes. Really?

Toronto senior housing has been negligent to get this person out of the building. Well, this is news to me. We got to, Mike Drillet, we got to follow up on this one. This is a new one for me. Yeah, this is a whole other story. There's a whole other kettle of fish. This is a police issue. Yeah.

And I'm sure, I'm guessing, Nadine, you've actually spoken with the police. Oh, God. And Dan, as well, I'm sure this is something you've inquired about. Yes, I know them on a first name basis. I've called them so many times. And what have they told you? You said, we've got a drug dealer in our building. We can name names.

We can point to it, tell you exactly where he lives. He's causing chaos. And the police have said what to you? Well, they know this person very well. Apparently, they need evidence. Okay, well, I get that. It's not up to me to collect the evidence. No, it's not.

You know, certainly not. I have given them information. Many of the tenants in this building have given them information. So, you know, as soon as I heard about this shelter being built, it just blew my mind. Because the city must have had some kind of conflict. about this shelter going in next door to the existing apartment building that I live in. Well, hold on. Well, let's bring Dan into this.

What do you, when you hear that, like there must have been consultation, but you're saying not, not so much. They pick this spot. They said it fits what we want, whether it really does meet their guidelines. We're going and we don't care what you think or what you say. The fact that this, the fact that this, you've got evidence or you're putting forth an argument that they, this is the most anti-democratic thing I could possibly see from the level of government

and Nadine I thank you for your call from the level of government that is supposed to be the most representative. Oh no, it was terrible. In July, we went down to make deputations to the zoning committee which Gord Perks is the committee chair. And he shut down every single person all day long

who even, if you began to say the word shelter or homeless and shut down, shut down. Shut down. And at the end of the day, his closing remarks, everything he told us we couldn't say. Sob stories about this and barbecues with new homeless people coming in there. It's like, oh, my God, you're a hypocrite. And probably, but I will give him where credit is due. He is not afraid to come on to shows like this and discuss those things, unlike Amber Morley, who, as you said, is now,

it's playing a game of, like, a whack-a-mole. So I wish you the very best. I hope you come back soon. Thank you very much. us updated on this lawsuit. We really appreciate it. When we come back, we are talking with a civil litigation lawyer about, hey, how do you sue the city

after all? In any way. So don't go anywhere. This is the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. All right, we're going to keep talking about this new Toronto lawsuit against Amber Morley, the city of Toronto and, Dan, you got to remind me the guy's name again? Bruce Davis, Instigator in chief.

And so now we're going to talk to a legal expert, Paul Miller. He's a civil litigation lawyer, partner at Howie Sachs and Henry, about how you go about sue in the city. Paul, welcome the show. Happy to be here. Thank you. Yes, and I hope you don't mind, but we've asked Dan to stick around because, you know, I think he's germane to the conversation. So let's jump right in. How do you sue a city?

It's hard. It's hard, especially on policy. Like, you can sue the city for things like, you know, if you hurt yourself on city sidewalks, et cetera, that's one thing. But to sue the city or any government on policy decisions is very, very difficult. I mean, the courts are going to give so much deference to the elected officials that it becomes very, very difficult. But, you know, as somebody who sort of chronicles as best I can, the, the, the, what I've seen, seen as the failings and failures of the city over the course of this. You know, there's a public record that seems to give credence to these allegations.

Would you, what do you think of? Like, in this specific case, as hard as it is, as hard as you just referenced, the fact that in this specific case, I mean, there is a list. There's a public record that, I mean, gives a lot of runway to New Toronto's arguments. Would you not agree? I do, but again, when you try to hold cities or communities or whatever council accountable, they're having public hearings. They're having things that are out there in the public.

And I really do believe that, you know, as bad as some politicians can be at this. And potentially, allegedly, giving favors to those that they want, it's up to the public to show up and it's up to the public to contest these things when there are public hearings. It's not enough to just say, okay, I'll wait for an election. Yeah. Okay.

So it falls on everybody. Yeah. So, Dan, what do you say to that? Like, oh, there you go. Yes. What public hearings? Yeah. We didn't have any. We had no opportunity to show up and contest. No, yeah.

I'm talking about generally. No, no, no, exactly. No, and that's what I'm trying to bridge a gap between what you're saying generally and this specific case. You know, if, if there, I, I, I take everything you say at face value and, and, and, and, and yes, but if, if, if, if, if the evidence on the ground demonstrates that the, whatever public hearings have happened were performative at best, right? Is that what you, yeah, exactly. Is that fair to say? And again, like, because so much of this has to happen in public. And, and so what, you either have evidence of, of, um, um, um, of, of no hearings, or the hearings that you have, there is a public record of them where

nothing got, nothing got discussed, feels to me like that these guys probably, New Toronto probably does have a case as hard as it might be. Like, how do you see a case like this going, Paul? I think the first thing, you know, if I was involved and, listen, I'm not involved with this matter. And the first thing I'd be trying to figure out is, okay, do we have any. road to get injunctive relief to stop this from happening at the very outset so that we can make the argument that these public hearings were performative and that they

weren't engaged in a proper form for the public to get involved. That's the first thing I would do. And because that's what you want as I would assume as, let's say, the right pairs or the people in the community, they want to be heard. and so that's to be the number one thing is that stopping this now and having the having a court say wait we're not saying that you can't do this at 66 3rd street but you need to do the proper process yeah and give people the right because then it may influence a different decision down the road yeah i i didn't learn a lot in law school paul but what i did learn one of the

things that has stuck with me is that the appearance of propriety is as important as propriety itself. If the system, if it looks like the system wasn't respected, then the system might, if the process looks foul, then it doesn't matter if the result is a good one. People will not trust that result. And so the process has to look like it was respected. And that to me is fundamental to the law. But let's talk about what happens when, uh, when the, you know,

when you have sort of competing, competing processes, you've got the judicial process and then you've got the electoral process that is right around the corner. We're 13 months away from an election. I have to assume, and you can tell me, Paul, that that litigation like this could take years, correct? Oh, gosh. Yeah. I think, you know, to get in, to get, let's say, if there was an avenue for injunctive relief, that, that can be done pretty quickly. Okay. But to get to get to the end result. Yeah. You know, I don't think I've ever been in a piece of litigation in 207 years.

Oh, I think, Paul, I think we've lost. Oh, Paul continue. Yeah, 27 years? I practice for 27 years. Any significant lawsuit takes three to five years. Okay. So could you, conceivably, given the fact that we have an election that's 13 months away, conceivably could

could we realistically see perhaps some version of injunctive relief in the next few months where the if New Toronto does everything that they say they want to do and prove everything that they want to do they get that injunction right

but then the then the court says look we're going to wait and see if this might all go away if the city of Toronto votes out the people that they have a problem with and votes in people who would then respect this system does that is is that a is could that could that conceivably happen listen i think anything can conceivably happen my the issue i have with that is you know

that's almost analogous to when merrick olin was appointed or nominated for the u.s supreme court and the republican said hold on there's an election in 13 months we don't want to put have a vote on a new U.S. Supreme Court when this government may not be in power. Yeah, that was new. I'd never heard that one before. This is the government in power right now. Yeah. So, you know, there are certain tests that you have to satisfy to get injunctive relief. And I'm not an expert in any way on injunctive relief, but, you know, the folks who would be seeking.

Oh. to show okay you have to show what you have to show that you know that the damage that the damages that would be caused by the injunction are not irreparable okay so that's going to be so there's a big on new Toronto saying hold on

and they've got to prove some things and it's not easy and you know it's it's not a it's not an easy test to get an injunction on something as serious as this. And again, this government is in power right now. Yeah. Yeah, this is, so, yeah, so they're the ones have to be held to account. Paul, thank you very much. I really appreciate your insights. You're welcome. Dan, how do you feel? Like, what happens if you get an injunction? We only have 10 seconds left. You get an injunction, but then the political wins change for all these

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