The Ben Mulroney Show - The crime and the lawsuit everyone in Winnipeg is talking about

Episode Date: September 10, 2025

GUEST:     John Graham/Director, Government Relations (Prairie Region) RETAIL COUNCIL OF CANADA GUEST: Scott Newman - Winnipeg defence lawyer   If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Twitter: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ TikTok: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by the National Payroll Institute, the leader for the payroll profession in Canada, setting the standard of professional excellence, delivering critical expertise, and providing resources that over 45,000 payroll professionals rely on. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Let's be honest, we've all shared our problems in some pretty funny places, the group chat, your barber, maybe even a stranger on a plane, and hey, sometimes that helps. But when it comes to stuff like stress, anxiety, or relationships, it makes a big difference to talk to somebody. who's actually trained to help. That's what BetterHelp is all about. They connect you with credentialed professional therapists online. And what makes them stand out is their therapist match commitment.

After a quick questionnaire, BetterHelp does the hard work of finding someone who fits your needs. Most people get it right the first time. But if it's not a match, you can switch counselors anytime at no extra cost. It's flexible, totally online, and you can hit pause whenever you need to. With over 5 million people supported to date globally, BetterHelp is now available in Canada, Canada with a network of counselors who have expertise in a wide range of specialties. With a 4.9 out of 5 rating based on over 1.7 million client reviews, BetterHelp makes counseling affordable and convenient, and you can switch counselors at any time for no cost.

Our listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash Mulrooney. That's better, help.com slash Mulrooney. Hey, thanks, son. What do I owe you? Don't worry about it. It's payday. Payday, huh? I bet you it went straight into your bank account and you didn't even check your pay stuff. My what?

Your pay stuff. Back in my day, you had to wait for a physical check. Then you had to go to the bank. Deposit it and wait for it to clear. Your pay really meant something. Payroll was incredibly complex. It's art and the science. It literally keeps the economy moving.

Parole professionals do a lot for us. You know, it's about time we do something for them. How about we ask our leaders to name a day in their honor, a national day to recognize payroll professionals? I got it. This is perfect. Why don't we explain to people just how important the roles are the payroll professionals play in our lives? We can even ask them to sign a petition. We can even ask them to sign a petition to recognize the third Tuesday in September as the National Day to recognize payroll professionals.

Will rally support and bring the payroll party to the nation? A national payroll party? Precisely. Sounds like a plan, you know, just one thing. What's that? I'm choosing the music. What? And I'm sitting in the back seat.

The whole way? The whole way. Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney show, rather. It's Wednesday, September 10th, and I find myself for the second straight day on a glorious late summer, borderline fall day in the city of Winnipeg, Manitoba. I'm at the C.J.O.B. Studios, very pleased to be here. Couldn't have asked for better weather, couldn't have asked for a better reason to be here. I'm here with B'nai Brest, Canada, which is Canada's largest, not largest, oldest, independent human rights group. It's 150 years young, and we're celebrating that anniversary at a gala at the Canadian Human Rights Museum, right here in the city of Winnipeg, with our special guest, our guest of honor,

former Prime Minister Stephen Harper. That's happening tonight. And so in the meantime, I'm spending a lot of time walking around the city, enjoying this beautiful weather that we're having. I got to say, I really thought it was going to be cold because I'm from Toronto and I just assumed as much, but it's beautiful. And I promised you that I would tell you about my return to a restaurant that I have been pining over since the last time I was in Winnipeg, Pizzerie Augusto. I came here with my E-Talk family years ago, and I had a pizza called The Dawn. and it has lived rent-free in my head ever since. And my hope was I could move that the pleasure of the memory back into my belly with a return visit.

I went last night and I had the dawn again. And I promise you no word of a lie, this pizza was one of the top five pizzas I have ever been served in any restaurant anywhere in the world. It was perfect. It's a, you got to like meat, but I'm sure they have, I'm sure they have. vegetarian options. That's not Benny Ben's jam. This was delicious. I'm not paid to say this. I paid for my dinner. I had a lovely time sitting at the bar, all by my lonesome, just me and my pizza and my tequila soda. And it was legendary. So congratulations to the people at Pizzerie Augusto. The memory and the reality collided in a beautiful pizza that I enjoyed last night. Thank you very

much. All right, so that's the good, right? And I've been walking around the city during the day, and it has been lovely, right? I've been walking around, interacting with people, keeping my eyes open, seeing what I see. I haven't seen what we're about to talk about right now, which is crime in the city of Winnipeg. Reports indicate that Winnipeg has the highest rate of violent crime in the country with more than double the national average. That's according to a recent Fraser Institute study and one of the aspects of that crime is retail theft this we talked yesterday about the closure of a number of 7-Elevens downtown the the city is experiencing a significant increase in retail theft with which often involves violence and that has become what's not

specific to to Winnipeg it's a national trend so we want to play for you now um a global news story about a robber a self-avowed uh lifelong criminal who committed a crime. He paid for it in terms of his physical safety. And now he's suing the Winnipeg grocer that he robbed. At a time when even 7-Elevens are shuddering in parts of Winnipeg fed up with crime, Dino's is one of only a handful of grocery stores operating in the city's core. And now they're being sued by a man police have charged with stealing there. The statement of claim filed in Winnipeg court on August 12th by Michael Prince names Dino's food mart owner Rajan Varma and eight other unidentified men and women

who he says kicked, punched and hit him with a hammer in the parking lot after Prince says he stole a jacket with a key fob from inside and tried to take a vehicle. Prince says the beating left him with constant fear, anxiety, apprehensiveness, depression and feelings of worthlessness and head trauma and hearing loss. Court records show Prince has a long criminal history, even boasting in a pre-sentence report last summer that he heads a theft ring that's stolen more than a million dollars in property in the past decade. But now he claims he can no longer support himself and is seeking unspecified damages from the store owner. Support himself. Support himself doing what?

Crime? Like, look, I don't think, I don't think anybody should be beaten to within an inch of their life. But if you F around, you're going to find out, if you've decided that you are going to make your livelihood, you're going to make your living off of the backs of hardworking, tax-paying, law-abiding citizens, there will be consequences. You will meet those consequences, and you're not going to like them. And so to turn around and then sue the grocer, now, so Michael Prince, and now, look, to be fair, the, the assault that he endured doesn't sound pleasant. So he stole a jacket that had a wallet in it and a key fob, and the goal was to steal a car. You returned 30 minutes later to steal that car, and the employees turned into a mob, apparently, and the employees turned into a mob, apparently, and the they allegedly pulled him from the vehicle, punched him, kicked him, and somebody allegedly hit him with a hammer. Now, to me, that's a bridge too far, but he alleges head trauma, hearing

loss, ongoing mental health issues, anxiety, depression, and fear. I wonder how much he was worried about the fear that he was instilling in those he was robbing over the course of a decade where he stole a million dollars worth of goods. How much fear is he responsible for? He's suing the store and its owner, along with unnamed employees seeking unspecified damages. Now, I don't know anything about this court case. If it were me, I would toss it out and I would go after the people who assaulted him criminally and see where the chips fall there. But this guy's not entitled to anything. I'm sorry.

No, I'm not sorry. I'm not sorry. This man and his employees are trying to keep a business afloat, feed a neighborhood, and be a meeting place for different people and from the community. These are the businesses that bind a community together. This man, Michael Prince, was dedicated to destroying that. And when you make a career out of going business by business, stealing from those places, weakening them, making it more likely that they will. not see another day. Look, were his crimes violent in nature? Probably not. So is it fair that he met a violent

response? Probably not. Do I care? Not necessarily. I'm past the point of caring. My empathy is now devoted entirely to the law-abiding victims. And I don't like that these people took matters into their own hands, but if crime in this city is anything like the city I live in Toronto, then citizens are feeling less and less sure that this criminal element will meet the consequences commensurate with the crime. And in the absence of knowing that justice will be served, there are certain people who will feel it is up to them to fill the gap. I'm not making excuses for it.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying this is what happens. This is what happens when a society doesn't take crime, safety, and security seriously. I have no time for this being a lawsuit. I don't care that he has ongoing mental health issues. He probably had them beforehand, which is why he thought it was a good idea to make a life of crime. But this is not a good person. This person is a net negative on society.

This is a person who takes. This is a person who causes pain. This is a person who causes fear. This is a person who looks at a situation and says, how can I make this worse for those people in order to make it better for myself? This is a person who views the world as a zero-sum game. I need to take from them in order to make my life better, as opposed to trying to be productive and having everyone win.

So this is not a person who I feel should be able to. to avail himself of the justice system in the way that is fair and right. I don't think that these people should get off scot-free. I think there should be criminal charges on those who put hands on him and hurt him. But that is a separate case. This is not a civil case that should go anywhere. At least, that's how I feel. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're going to be joined by John Graham.

He is the Director of Government Relations for. the Retail Council of Canada. We're going to talk about the state of play for businesses here in the city of Winnipeg. How bad have things gotten? How can they improve? What's next? That's coming up. Don't go anywhere. That's all coming up next on the Ben Mulroney show right here on the Chorus Radio Network from Coast to Coast to Coast to Coast. Welcome back to the Ben Maloney. Ben Mulroney Show, really appreciate you joining us. Typically, I'm in Toronto hosting this show.

Today, I find myself at the studios of C.J.O.B. and beautiful Winnipeg, Manitoba, and it really is beautiful. On a daylight today, I think it showcases the beauty of this city. I was walking around yesterday, very much taken by the architecture. There are pockets of incredibly beautiful architecture, the likes of which do not exist elsewhere in the country. And as just a little point of information, what I learned is once the masons were done building what is, you know, what we know to be the most beautiful, majestic buildings in Chicago, they move north to Winnipeg. And they had their sights set on turning this into the mercantile capital of the country. And then I'm pretty sure that the Great Depression set in and that ended those ambitions, but not before leaving this city with sort of these pockets of real, real big.

beauty. But before the break, we were talking about retail theft and the closure of a great many retail options in the downtown area. And I ran out of steam. I talked about as much as I can on my own. So we brought in the big guns to help continue this conversation. Please welcome John Graham. He's the Director of Government Relations for the Prairie Region of the Retail Council of Canada. John, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. Hey, thanks very much, Ben, for also being here in Winnipeg. My home city, I'm so proud of it. Yeah, so you're a lifeer born and bred? I am. I just,

there's so many great things about this city and often here are people moving to the city for work and never leaving, and we're not surprised. You know what? Let's start out on a positive note. What are those great aspects of the city? Well, frankly, the people are a perfect example and a lead into retail crime

issue. It's when there are issues, we rally around each other, we support each other. We're small enough. We're just shy of a million, but 800,000, but we're small enough as far as coming together around any issues that we need to resolve. And as you've been as part of the Retail Council for six years, but you've been in the retail business for far longer. Yeah, not only a big lifer, but a retail lifer. I love the sector, the diversity of the industry, the types of people that are passionate about it, and the fact that it's mainstream, it's the lightblood of communities. Well, yeah, it's a lifeblood of the economy as well. I mean, there's more businesses that are created by small and mediums,

business than any other sector so and to me there is nothing more admirable than the spirit of an entrepreneur someone who bets on themselves you bet and so i want to live in a world where we get out of the way of the entrepreneur as much as possible so that they can they can do those things they can build community they can create those those touch points where we all rally together they are they are the character of a of a of a neighborhood and and and so what does it say to you that that we're here today not to talk about that, but we're here to talk about retail crime and sort of the hollowing out of retail in the downtown core. Yeah, and it's not only the downtown core, frankly, it's across the province that we're dealing with really unprecedented types of issues that are impacting retail stores. If this was about Jean Valjean and feeding themselves a loaf of bread to feed the family, that would be something we could address.

But the reality is it's the minority of the situations, the majority. are, we're dealing with the career criminals. Yeah. Those that are coming into stores, specific items they're stealing, fencing them, and the same group of people creating often unsafe environments because they escalate to the potential of violence at least. Well, look, I don't know enough about crime and how these groups work, but I do know that there is a calculus involved.

They'll look at something and say, okay, I know that if I go into this store, I'm probably going to be able to get away with X amount of dollars worth of goods. I also know that there's going to be no pushback from the owner. So I can leave and I can go do another crime and on and on. They do this calculus and they say, this is how much money I think I can make. To me, that is one of the problems, is there is the consequences to the crime are so low that it makes it so that it makes financial sense. It makes financial math sense to do these things. where do you see the problem

I'm following your logic I just don't necessarily agree I'm glad I like it if you don't agree tell me how you see it right at the end of the day one in 10 Manitobans work in the retail sector so that's moms and dads and husbands and wives that care dearly about a safe environment the last thing

a retailer wants to see is any of their employees or customers be in a vulnerable position to be injured so are you going to let most incidents go potentially but you layer on retailers have fortified their stores more than ever you know you talk to me about that

yeah and it's a sad situation reality is though now you've got families that trying to access a downtown library having to go through an airport security type system so you're saying limited access to doors so you're talking about like getting buzzed in having that

little cage area right where you get buzzed in the first door you got to wait for that to close before the next one opens that's not normal that's not what we as a community want And at the end of the day, you continue to escalate in four to five stores. It makes the online option that much more appealing. And brick and mortar is the lifeblood of Main Streets. Yeah.

But at the end of the day, you're right, unless we have more severe consequences to these types of thefts, then ultimately there's little deterrence. So what does the retail council do in a situation like this? Who do you reach out to for solutions? Who are your partners in trying to make this a better situation? Yeah, in part, we're driving. a solution. Retail Council has formed the Retail Crime Task Force

in the province, which really has the key organizations at a leadership level at the same table. And historically, you were dealing with one police service, maybe Winnipeg brand and RCMP about retail instance. You were dealing with the justice or

prosecution systems or private security in different types of pockets. We've now got a former chief justice, we've got the head of prosecution, we've got the government of Manitoba at the table, different police services, private security, unions, all at the same executive table-deriving solutions that are slowly seeing an impact on finally the good guys being more coordinated. So am I to understand then that we've turned a corner, that things are improving? Yeah.

We've hit the low point. We've gone to the bottom and now we're pulling ourselves out. Yeah, I think that if you asked someone two years ago about retail crime, they think it's just Billy taking a chocolate bar or it's homelessness or desperate people. Now there's a real reality that those that are most violent, those that are dealing with retail crime, the concern is the most, are real criminals. And at the same time, there's lots of talking. You've done great segments on the bail reform and the role of the federal government criminal code can play. there's a strong understanding that there needs to be a change in real consequences

for actions. And where can this this positive trend take the city? You know, one thing I've been struck by by the geography of this town, you can see what the ambitions for Winnipeg were by how broad the streets are, right? This was

not a town that was supposed to be a small, you know, Midwestern town. They had ambitions of international importance. Otherwise, you wouldn't have three, four lanes of traffic built a hundred years ago, right? So where can

this plan, this ambitious plan of eradicating this real scourge that's hindering the growth of the city? Where can it take the city? Yeah, and there's certainly not tumbleweeds rolling down the streets. There's lots of vibrant innovation, leadership and entrepreneurs,

technology, pharmaceutical, just a ton of great stuff going on. But what I mean is... At the end of the day, we will see a turn on this one because we're seeing better coordinated police, better relationships between prosecution and police services. We're seeing an effort by the provincial government to appropriately fund. You're starting to see, hopefully, the federal government really address these types of career criminals and bail reform and monitoring. If you can get to that point, we know that Manitobans and Canadians, frankly, want to shop in brick and mortar stores. They do.

And we're going to see more vibrant environments for those stores. Now, see, I don't know anything. So you might tell me that this is already happening. But given those footprints and given the wide berth of the streets, like I would love for Winnipeg to be like one of the street, the street festival capitals of the country, where there are restaurant festivals and retail festivals and music festivals, because you have the real estate for it here.

Yeah. And I'll give you 30 seconds to answer. Yeah. And I think that for those, haven't been to Winnipeg, you can see an amazing list of events that do occur. Street festivals and music festivals and restaurant

festivals, all those types of things are here. At the end of the day, though, there's a limitation on those because people want to make sure they feel safe when they're attending them. And that's where we're focused, is creating a safer environment. And lots of good work being done. John Graham, you're doing great work. I know you're doing great work on behalf of really great Canadians, so I thank you very much for your time.

Thank you for stopping by the Ben Rollerney Show. Thanks so much, Ben. All right, coming up, let's get a legal perspective. on what's going on with crime in Winnipeg. That's coming up right here on the Ben Mulroney show. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Let's be honest. We've all shared our problems in some pretty funny places,

the group chat, your barber, maybe even a stranger on a plane. And, hey, sometimes that helps. But when it comes to stuff like stress, anxiety, or relationships, it makes a big difference to talk to somebody who's actually trained to help. That's what BetterHelp is all about. They connect you with credentialed professional therapists online.

And what makes them stand out is their therapist match commitment. After a quick questionnaire, BetterHelp does the hard work of finding someone who fits your needs. Most people get it right the first time. But if it's not a match, you can switch counselors anytime at no extra cost. It's flexible, totally online, and you can hit pause whenever you need to. With over 5 million people supported to date globally, BetterHelp is now available in Canada, with a network of counselors who have expertise in a wide range of specialties. With a 4.9 out of 5 rating based on over 1.7 million client reviews,

BetterHelp makes counseling affordable and convenient, and you can switch counselors at any time for no cost. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash Mulruni. That's betterhelp.com slash Mulruni. This episode is brought to you by Square. You're not just running a restaurant. You're building something big. and Squares there for all of it, giving your customers more ways to order,

whether that's in-person with Square kiosk or online. Instant access to your sales, plus the funding you need to go even bigger. And real-time insights so you know what's working, what's not, and what's next. Because when you're doing big things, your tools should to. Visit square.ca to get started. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show on location at C.J.O.B. the radio station, our sister radio station here in the city of Winnipeg.

And we've been having a conversation about crime. Look, we have a conversation about crime every day on the Ben Mulroney show. And the fact that we're in Winnipeg, we want to focus on crime here in this city. And I've got to be honest, I have walked around the last two days in the middle of the day, sunshining, beautiful, and it has felt as safe as any city I have walked in this country. I suspect that's not the case when the sun goes down. And we're joined now by defense lawyer Scott Newman. Scott, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for being here. Thank you. And I want to talk to you about this case that we were discussing, not last segment, but the previous segment, about this, the grocery store beatdown, where a self-avowed career criminal essentially walked into a store, took a jacket that had a fob in it. came back to steal the car. When he came back, he was assaulted by some of the employees, allegedly assaulted. And now he's suing the grocery store and the owner and a number of the employees for emotional distress. I said on the show, I don't have any empathy for this guy. I don't like that they got physical with him. So that's a criminal case. But as far as I'm concerned, seeking damages for being somebody who's made a career damaging these prized institutions in retail.

I don't have time for that. Well, it's interesting. It's always hard to know what to think of a case without knowing what the facts are underlying the case. I mean, you can, rather than talking about that example, and I will also say it's sort of of a part of this national discussion that seems to be going on about self-defense right now, defense of property. And you can imagine a case, for example, where somebody like this person goes into a shop or into a store, tries to steal a car, whatever.

let's say a group of people tackle him, take him to the ground, he's unarmed, he's prone out on the ground, four people on top of him, somebody comes along and jumps on his head 30 times. We would say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not reasonable. You can't do that. So when you think of it in terms of that and you think of it in terms of the self-defense discussion, you're entitled to defend yourself, you're entitled to defend your property. You're not allowed to exact vengeance, turn yourself into the punisher, to take out on this person what you see as the ills of the world are, to take your pound of flesh, so to speak. So it's, it's, you know. Yeah, but that's why I look at it and I see a criminal case. I don't see a civil case at all.

But that's a larger discussion. Are there any factors at play in Winnipeg that may be different from the conversation about crime that we're having elsewhere in the country? I think it's very much sort of a patchwork of problems that are repeating. across the country. My wife not too long ago had been in Calgary and she said, this actually looks worse than what's happening in Winnipeg

because you see people, she saw groups of people using drugs in the middle of the day and in busy parts of the town. So we definitely have issues across the country with drug abuse, drug addiction. I think, you know, when we're having this discussion that you see coming from primarily the conservative party about bail reform,

I'm always very cautious about that because this is really something that's brought up primarily by municipal and provincial leaders to cover up for shortfalls of funding and supports that attack the root causes of crime. We need more funding for things like drug addiction and treatment. We need more funding to deal with homelessness, poverty, mental health issues,

FASD and cognitive function. If you're somebody who's got an IQ 50, you're very much a follower. You need to be kept busy. And, you know, when I see that kind of discussion happening being led by provinces, municipalities, it tells me, you know, I'd really like to see, rather than dealing with it after the fact and warehousing people, let's deal with the root causes and get the crime rate down. Well, look, we've also, in the province of Ontario, you know, as much as we talk about bail reform,

that will be, that's something that is much needed, but we also need to be able to have more jail cells. so that we can keep people if they present a risk as opposed to releasing them. And when people look at the feds and say, hey, why aren't you fixing this? A big part of that is the provincial responsibility of building more jail cells. Is that a problem here as well? Well, look, I mean, part of the problem with social ills and having these underlying social problems is you can't arrest your way out of that problem. No, you can't arrest your way out of that problem. however there is an immediate issue of public safety if somebody has presented as a risk to the public and they have been arrested a number of times and they've been released because there's nowhere to put them and you release them again and then who knows what they do the next time that that is a problem that can be solved simply by housing them in a jail as opposed to releasing them on their own recognises sure but they're going to get out someday yes but then there's still going to be a continuous risk you got to deal with the problem yes i appreciate that as well two things can be truce at the same time you can

I, you know, releasing somebody and saying, well, that's not addressing the, the, the underlying risk, sure, but we're also allowing them to commit another crime. So isn't that true at all times, though, right? Yeah, but you're on bail, whether you're on probation, whether you're on no conditions at all, you're always a risk. Yeah, but you should be wanting to lower the risk. A hundred percent. A hundred.

So as you see it, what are those risks? Well, I mean, I do sentencing's every week. And we get pre-sentence reports where we have the risk factors. laid out very clearly. It's poverty, it's addiction, it's homelessness, it's education and employment, all of these things that are provincial or municipal responsibility. And unless we're going to deal with those root causes, you're just going to have this ongoing cycle of people in and out. And there's, you know, one of the other big risk factors for criminal activity is age. You just age out of it. And part of the concern I have is when you see proposals for bail

reform, we have very strict bail laws as it is and they're being applied strictly. I have lots of people who are in custody, even on weak cases being held on pre-trial detention. So when you talk about bail reform, you have to think about a few different things. One is you have a constitutional right to bail. So if you're just going to, as some people suggested, put in blanket denials of bail for people as clearly unconstitutional. Secondly, wait, hold on. What do you mean you have a constitutional right to bail? So if I am somebody who has made a career out of, I don't know, sticking up convenience stores. And I've done so three, four, five times.

I still have a constitutional right to bail. You have a constitutional right to reasonable bail. Section 11E of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. So everybody has the right to make a bail application. Everybody has a right to be released. It doesn't mean it has to be approved. It doesn't have to be approved, but you have to have the right to make it. And to suggest, look, we're just going to toss that out,

is concerning to me from a civil liberty standpoint. So when Pierre Poliyev says three strikes for violent crimes and you don't get bail? Problematic. Problematic, but in the world that we're living in, can you understand how a lot of law-abiding citizens would say it's about time? That doesn't do a lot to the person who's being held on pretrial detention without a bail application, where it's a weak case, where they're probably going to be acquitted. That's okay. You should sit in jail for 18 months. No, but I'm not talking about the weak case.

I'm talking about... Well, the weak case, if you're going to say bail is denied, bail is denied. Yeah. People who are presumed innocent are going to be sitting in jail. Let me give you an example. I've got... I've been doing this for over 20 years. I got clients that I've represented, let's say, 15, 20 years ago, terrible records, violent, violent activity. Turn their lives around.

Yep. Okay? Law-abiding. Got kids. Have jobs. Somebody breaks into their house. We're having the self-defense discussion. People breaking in their house. They use a weapon. They defend themselves in their house. They get arrested.

That guy is going to be sitting in jail for 18 months to three years waiting for his day in court. Is this something that self-defense doesn't apply for people who have prior criminal records? Or does it only apply to the bedroom communities of Oshawa where people are going to be allowed to defend themselves? But if you're on a reserve and you've got a criminal record, you can't defend yourself? Yeah. Well, look, you know, what's that line? Better 100 guilty people go free than. an innocent man spend a day in jail. I believe that. I believe in that at least as a guiding

principle. But we are living in a time where things are getting a little dice, and I think it requires us having hard conversations, right? And I'm glad you are here to have this conversation with me. I'm very pleased that you're able to come in and sort of add some color and give me some specificity as to what is going on in the city of Winnipeg. I thank you, and I hope you're able to enjoy this beautiful weather in this beautiful city. I'm walking back outside. Awesome, Scott. Thank you very much. That was Scott Newman, a defense lawyer here in the city of Winnipeg. All right, we're going to take a break, but when we come back, we've got, well, we're going to

close out the show with the professor himself, Craig Baird, the host of Canadian History X. He's got some stories that are going to open your mind to the wonderful history of this country. Don't go anywhere. This is The Ben Mulroney Show. The end. For four years, Noah and Sarah have been clying out from beneath the Denver airport. They have faced monsters, secret armies, and killing machines. But they're done running. This season on escaping Denver, the truth is revealed.

Captives become legends, and a war a thousand years in the making erupts around them. Join us for the end of our story. of escaping Denver drops August 11th on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and wherever you find your favorite podcasts.