The Ben Mulroney Show - The extortion crisis in BC has police grasping at straws

Episode Date: February 10, 2026

GUEST:  Caroline Elliott – BC Conservative leadership hopeful GUEST:  Gill Deacon /  Author of  A Love Affair with the Unknown: Leaning into the Uncertainty of Modern Life If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by the National Payroll Institute, the leader for the payroll profession in Canada, setting the standard of professional excellence, delivering critical expertise, and providing resources that over 45,000 payroll professionals rely on. Enjoy amazing days for one more week at Metro. Save big on six packs of selected Pepsi bottles just 349 each, and jumbo red or green seedless grapes just $2.99 per pound, only till February 11th. Shop in store or online at metro.ca. Well, it seems that nearly every single day, new waves of documents are released revealing who Epstein knew, who Jeffrey Epstein knew, who went to his island, who was on his plane, who he was talking to. Listen, he was talking to everybody. The simple act of being in his orbit does not disqualify anyone from living their lives.

And the fact that he knew, I mean, he knew everybody. This guy had his tentacles everywhere. And so it's, so people's names pop up in there and it could be completely innocuous. However, Howard Lutnik, everybody's favorite Donald Trump bootlicker, is having a day. With the best nickname ever. Yes, Howard. Yeah, he used it, put an end at the front of his name. Yes.

So, so here's his problem is that he had, he made, we're now learning that he maintained contact with Jeffrey Epstein. long after having claimed that he cut ties. And that includes allegedly visiting Epstein's private island for lunch and exchanging emails over a 14-year period. That's not something you forget. I mean, you know. That's just, it slipped the mind? Well, so, like, I'm willing to believe that it slipped your mind.

You have to prove to me that it slipped your mind, right? That's not something that someone accepts at face value. Oh, I forgot. Okay. Explain to me how. you forgot because saying it doesn't prove it. And so he contradicted his own past statements. He previously said that he would never, quote, be in a room with Epstein again after the, after a disturbing 2005 encounter. Yet the documents that have been released show later interactions

including a 2012 island lunch and a 2015 invitation sent to Epstein for a Hillary Clinton fundraiser. You think you would remember that sort of thing. Yeah, or you'd get ahead of it. And but also, yeah, you would know eventually that's going to come out. Yeah. You would know. Now, he downplayed the relationship publicly. He told senators he barely had anything to do with Epstein, despite these newly released Justice Department files suggesting more contact than he had acknowledged. This is a problem for him.

There are calls for him to resign. There are calls for investigation. When you say one thing and the documents prove something else. But I'll tell you what this does show me. It shows me that these documents are being released without fear or favor. Like those who would say that Donald Trump is protecting his own, this demonstrates that they're not. He's in the inner circle. He's a trusted confidant.

He's a foot soldier. He's a spokesperson. He's there. He's there. He's shoulders. He laughs at all Donald Trump's jokes, right? Even the ones that aren't funny. And so the fact that this was released,

speaks to how, I don't think they're paying attention to who's it in it. They're just releasing this stuff, which is what people want, by the way. And they want more of it. They want less of it being redacted and they want more of this. I'll tell you what we don't want more of. We don't want more of the level of extortion, the crisis that we're seeing in British Columbia. You know, you know that in Surrey, BC, the level of extortion, the number of extortions, the number of violent interactions due to these extortions.

It's reached a crisis level to the point that Surrey has declared a state of emergency. Well, here is a member of the Surrey police sort of laying out how best to maybe solve this problem. Have you been asked to help others extort people for money? Have you been offered money to shoot at a house or business or send threatening messages to people? Don't take the bait. You are being offered a small sum of money to take enormous risk that can harm you, your family, and everyday hardworking people. This is not why you came to Canada. You came to go to school, to find a better life, to be one of the first in your family to start something new.

You did not come here to become a criminal. Don't risk being arrested, jailed, and removed from Canada. Okay. listen, when you're in a crisis, you throw everything against the wall and you hope something sticks. That's something. How do you say to people,

yeah, you know, just don't turn to a life of crime. Just don't be a criminal. Just don't be a criminal. Why do you have to say that? I guess because a lot of people are turning to crime. And maybe they've learned in their investigations

that people with no criminal past are being asked to do these things. Ben, did I, I forgot to tell you this morning that murder's bad. Yeah, but that that's where I was going to go next. Like, it's bad. Yeah. If you have to tell people not to do that, then something has been lost, that these people have lost the plot. If they don't know that if somebody comes to them and says, hey,

will you do me a favor, take this gun and shoot it at somebody's house? Like, if your instinct isn't to run in the opposite direction. And find new friends. You got to find new friends, man. Like, I don't know to tell you. And so this is, but that's how bad stuff has gotten. What I hear there is a whiff of desperation. Like the cops, I don't know what they, I think they're asking themselves,

what more can we do? Maybe we will appeal to the lowest common denominator. The person, the person in this entire chain that is so stupid that we have to explain to them that shooting up a stranger's house, shooting up anybody's house is against the law. There was something a little bit funny in that, where they said, don't risk being, set home for where you came from. Come on, man. This is Canada. You're not going to send you home.

We're not going to send you home. Not a chance. Not a chance. Although, I mean, there's a debate going on the conservatives today put forth a motion that if you are, you can't claim refugee status if you've been accused of a crime. We called that a few weeks ago. We said that on this show. You shouldn't be able to do that. And by the way, that's a bridge too far for some people. There are people I saw on social media, there are people calling that racist. Oh, come on. Oh, yeah. No, it's racist. I think we had the, we were talking about Iran the other day with, they have 23 top ranking Iranian regime people who are in Canada that they've discovered the last few years.

And only one has been sent home. One. One. One. And so I, listen, I do not think it is a bridge too far to say, hey, if you are in Canada and you commit. And you. a crime, you don't get to claim refugee status. Not sorry about that. And I don't care if you are, I don't care where you came from. I don't care if you're white, black, brown, pocadotted. The race has nothing to do with it. If you come here and you break our laws, we send you home. That's it. You broke the deal. You've proven to us that you are not a good candidate to be Canadian. I wish we would stop seeing color in all of this. Color doesn't matter. It's The people who are seeing that as racist are the racist because they are seeing the criminal as somebody who isn't white.

Why are you doing that? Why, when we say if you're here and you break the law, we send you home, why do you see, in your head you see someone from the Middle East or someone from India? I don't. I'm seeing somebody from anywhere. Could be Ukraine, right? Could be some war-torn place in Latin America. It could be anywhere. Sorry, you don't get to stay here.

And to those of you claiming racism, ask yourselves why you're seeing them as someone who's not white. Ask yourselves that question. You damn racist. But this problem in Surrey is, it's not going anywhere anytime soon. But it's all over BC. Yeah, Abbottsford. Surrey is the heart of it. Yeah.

But Abbotsford, for example, the police chief says the force is all in on fighting a surge and extortion, but warns that outdated laws and justice system bottlenecks are holding police back. And we talk about this. This was just today that are you talking about this. Not a lot, we're not seeing the changes to the criminal code required to be able to deal with this stuff. I heard, they have to, they're talking about these reforms. They're saying, well, maybe you should fast track them. Yeah, yeah.

They're calling on Ottawa and Victoria to fast track long promised reforms from modernizing the criminal code to improving access to communication and data and boosting justice systems resources. The fact is Greg Brady, who is the host of the morning show here on 640 Toronto, he said, The hard work by police officers. And there's a gap between that hard work and the outcomes of the justice system. That gap is too wide. The police are working too hard to not get the outcomes that we as a society deserve. And the difference, the problem for the gap can be explained by problems in the criminal code, not having the teeth required to go after these people in a way that ensures that they are either deported or incarcerated for an extended period of time.

because one of the things is if they're incarcerated or deported, I promise you, people, the risk profile of this crime will make it so they do not want to do it as much as they do. All right, when we come back, we've got a huge conference. Speaking of British Columbia, the BC Conservative Party is looking for a new leader. We're going to talk to Caroline Elliott as to why she wants to lead the BC Conservatives into the next election. Enjoy amazing days for one more week at Metro. Save big on six packs of selected Pepsi bottles just $3.49 each. In jumbo red or green seedless grapes just $2.99 per pound only till February 11th.

Shop in store or online at metro.ca. In October 2024, in the election in British Columbia, the B.C. Conservative Party came within three seats and a handful of individual votes of winning the government. It was one of the tightest races in BC history with the B.C. NDP winning 47 seats in the Conservatives 44. And the result marked a historic rise for the conservatives who held zero seats at the start of the previous legislative session. And so for those of us who are not following BC politics each and every day, I think a lot of us were surprised to learn that the leader who carried that party to that historic rise in the polls and in their seat count, John Rustad, is no longer the leader. And now the party. is looking for a new leader, somebody who can take them over the hump and lead them to government. And with that, we're joined by BC Leadership Hopeful Caroline Elliott. Caroline, welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thank you for having me on.

Okay, so let's just level set with our audience. Who is Caroline Elliott? Well, look, Caroline Elliott, obviously I'm running for the leader with the BC Conservative Party. And the reason I'm doing that is because we are at an absolutely critical time in this province. You can pick the issue that matters most, and chances are it isn't working, whether it's the cost of living, the horrible investment climate, our failing healthcare system, really, you name it, rampant crime on the streets and a total fiscal mess. Like all of these things are being driven by a highly, highly ideological government with David E.B's NDP here in BC. And who am I? I am someone who has had the courage to speak up on many of those issues over the past years.

I've been very, very vocal in my criticism, also vocal in presenting what I think are the solutions to some of these issues. And I think that's what we need right now is we need someone with that courage to kind of aggressively get in there and pull that ideology out by its roots from every aspect of government. Let's assume for a moment you win leadership. Let's assume for a moment that you take the BC Conservatives past the NDP and you form government. What will be the very first real decision to make as Premier to show British, Colombians that change has arrived? The very first thing I would do, actually, can I say to? Because I want to say to, and I would do them almost simultaneously because they're both

so important. I would drop the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People's Act. It's called DRIPA here in BC. It's a massive issue that's causing all kinds of problems. It's hampering our prosperity. It's undemocratic. It is socially, extremely divisive. But I want to jump in.

I have, and again, you're going to be informing me and teaching me as we go here. I have to believe that in British Columbia that is, you know, more progressive than other parts of the country, that in and of itself is going to be controversial. How do you sell something like that? If I had to guess, Caroline, you would be accused of racism and you would be accused of intolerance towards first nations and disrespecting first nations for something like that. So talk to me about, because I don't know a single Canadian and doesn't. that doesn't want real reconciliation, and where we can all move forward in a productive fashion

in a respectful fashion. So talk to me about the problem you have with DRIPA, and are you planning to replace it with something? Yeah, so the thing to know about me, too, is I've never shied away from things just because they're hard. I was one of the first people in this province to start calling out this issue and the radical direction this government was taking it in

when no one else was doing so. And it was very lonely out on that limb for a long time. But what I would say is now in BC is a lot less controversial than it used to be because British Colombians are seeing decisions come down. For example, the Cowichin decision, which is putting private property rights at risk, as I'm sure you're aware. And suddenly the public has had this wake-up call saying like, oh, my God, this direction is not okay. We're in a very, very challenging situation from an economic perspective and otherwise.

And we need to make change. So as much as this might sound kind of, I don't know, kind of, kind of, drastic for other parts of Canada. In BC, people are more than ready for this conversation. Well, you know, I heard somebody from Out West say that reconciliation and anti-colonialism cannot exist simultaneously. To suggest that we need to decolonize everything and taking an anti-colonialist position, you can't have true reconciliation because what that means is you are the, the, the, the, the,

First Nations, if they want to decolonize everything, and they're viewing those opposite them as illegitimate. And so you've got to pick your poison. You either want reconciliation or you want to decolonize, but you can't have both. Yeah, I mean, what reconciliation is all about is actually finding that balance between the broader public interests of all the Canadians that are here right now and the unique interests of indigenous groups. And I think that that balance has been completely lost by this government in a really destructive way. And now you have Emily's standing in the legislature saying non-indigenous British Columbians should refer to themselves as settlers and uninvited guests. Yeah. That's like, yeah, that's a non-starter. It's a non-starter.

It's madness. Yeah. Yeah. Madness. Okay, so let's talk about something we were talking about before this, before the break. We were talking about the BC extortion crisis. I mean, this is, I mean, when you've got towns that are declaring states of emergency, a public safety is at risk here and it is an issue. What's going on on on that file and how would you address it? Yeah, I mean, it's a huge issue, especially, I mean, I grew up in the town of Surrey where extortion is the biggest issue. You know, that's the location where it's happening the most. Look, I put out a video recently saying there's a real issue here. They just arrested three people the other weekend, foreign nationals who were found to be committing

these kinds of crimes, intimidation, extortion threats, and so on. And I put out a video saying, look, if you are a foreign national and you're in this country and you're doing these kinds of activities, highly illegal, highly dangerous, highly threatening to communities and neighborhoods. You have abused our welcome and you don't belong here. You should be deported immediately. Yeah. Yeah.

We were just saying that before the break. And I was pointing out to my producer that there is a number of people who suggested that that's racist to suggest something like that. And to those people, I would say, why are you picturing those people as a different race? Totally. What does that say about how you view people who are committing crimes? and of course those people will never answer those questions. What other issues do you think the BC NDP have dropped the ball on? God, there's so many.

Public safety being one, or this absolutely crazy reconciliation plan on the other, but there's more. The investment climate in BC, maybe it's less juicy to talk about. Nope. But my God, we live in a province where we have an abundance of natural resources. We have an amazing location relative to some of the biggest markets in the world. We have a talented workforce. Like we should be the most prosperous province in the country and in the most prosperous nation on earth, frankly.

And instead, we're just putting up roadblocks, left, right and center. Every chance we get this government, and I shouldn't say we, this government is out there adding layer of home layer of regulation, telling you all the reasons you shouldn't do it. And it's time, I think, in this province to say yes. Like yes to investment, yes to the jobs it creates, the paychecks people get to bring home. This is a good thing we should welcome it. What about communicating with Alberta on a path for a pipeline to the tidewater? I think that has to happen to. Look, like, that's critical to Canada's success. BC can't succeed without Canada's success.

Canada can't succeed without BC's success. Like, we have to find a way to not, as I say, to not put up roadblocks. David E.B., of course, said, oh, this won't be happening without the consent of the coastal first nations, which you may be aware is actually not a constitutionally defined. It's not a thing. Yeah, it's not a thing. Well, it is, it's an NGO. Yeah, it's an NGO that's funded by the Rockefellers.

Yeah, exactly. So it's like these are the kinds of crazy things that are happening. And it just has to stop. Yeah. What do you have to do to ensure that this ascendancy of the BC Conservatives is not a one-off? Yeah, I think that, I mean, picking the right leader is probably one of the biggest things we can do to ensure that. Picking a leader who can appeal to the different sides of the political spectrum on the right here in British Columbia without compromising on our conservative principles. that is absolutely possible.

Getting new groups to vote for us. Like, as you know, conservatives have a hard time attracting women to vote for them. I think that's a large part of what I want to help try to bring in. And how are you going to do that? We got about a minute left, but how are you going to do that? How are you going to bring people in who are used to voting NDP?

I mean, there's a big delta between the conservatives and the NDP. How do you bring those people in and make them feel comfortable in a party that they've been almost trained not to be fearful of? Yeah, excellent question. And what I would say to that is conservative principles are actually normal people principles. Like normal people understand that violent criminals, violent reoffenders don't belong in our neighborhoods. They belong in jail. They understand let's not hand out free drugs. Let's get people well. They understand let's not spend like drunken sailors and that we have to manage our budgets the way you manage a household budget. These are all actually normal people values.

I think our trick to appealing to a broader swath of people is to actually get out there and demonstrate that to them. And I think that's entirely possible. Caroline Elliott, I want to thank you so much for joining us on the Ben Mulroney show. We'll be keeping our eye on this leadership race. When is it, by the way? When is the vote? It's end of May, May 27, 28th, but you have to sign up to be a member to vote. And that is mid-April is the cutoff to do that. So sign up right away. Caroline Elliott, thank you so much. I hope to talk to you again soon. Thank you for having me. All right. When we come back, oh, this is the best part of having a show

like that it's mine is when I want to bring a guest back I get to. I didn't have a nearly enough time with Jill Deakin the last time. So we brought her back for two segments. Don't go anywhere. The Ben Mulrooney show continues. Like I said before the break, I am so glad that the show is called Ben Mulrooney show because as the host, Ben Mulrooney, I get to decide when I bring people back. And I did not have enough time with my next guest the last time.

You'll remember Jill Deacon as one of the voices that you probably grew up with and listen to on the radio. But I wanted to have her back because as the author of A Love Affair with the Unknown leaning into the uncertainty of modern life, she brings a perspective that I think a lot of us need to hear. Jill, welcome back to the show. Ben, it's such a treat to have. Thank you for having me back.

Because it occurred to me, there's so many topics I wanted to broach with you. It feels like everything about life today has an element of precarity to it. You got it. Raising children. paying your mortgage. Am I going to have a job next month? Worries about the future, worries about the climate,

worries about the safety of our kids, you name it. There is uncertainty in absolutely every aspect of everyone's life and how we deal with it is, I think, determines how happy we are. Totally agree. And people are joking with me.

Like, how did you know to write this book that would be so timely? It's on the best sellers list already because it's clearly a topic that we're all, thank you. It's just, but it's, I mean, it's unfortunate in many ways that it is so relevant. Yeah. Because, yeah, life feels fraught right now. You're right.

And I always say on this show, you know, you take the world as it is, not as you want it to be. And that leads into your perspective, right? Like, you got to take the world how it is and you have to adapt to it. And you've got, as you say, lean into it. And so, so, I mean, in your life, let's start with you. and then we'll build out from there. Okay. You know, you've had health issues,

and is that where sort of embracing uncertainty came into your life? Yeah, I mean, I've had a couple of rounds with breast cancer and a couple of other sort of less invasive cancer diagnoses. So there's nothing like something like that to kind of bring you up short in terms of any illusion. you were under about how life was going to go and how the future, oh, it's going to be like this, and then I'm going to do that. And then I think in a couple of years I'll probably do that. And suddenly, you know, cancer is a pretty powerful, and as is, you know, so many people have all kinds

of health scares and diagnoses that are life-altering. And it really shakes you and makes you realize, hold on a minute. I actually don't have any control over we can try our best. And of course, it's good to, you know, make healthy choices and all the things. But we're not really, none of it inoculates us against anything. And so my health is what got me really, unfortunately, I've had a lot of experience. It got me really, really skilled, I guess, at remembering to not get too caught up in either my plans and hopes for the future or my anxieties about the future. Because that's the reality is that you can't, you know,

sometimes we suffer future pain, you know, like anticipatory anxiety where it's like bleeding before we're cut. Yeah, exactly. We don't, my health was certainly what thrust me into, yes, being mindful of all that. But Jill, how do you get from sort of acknowledging what you just said, acknowledging that we have very little control? and then finding a way to getting to a place where that recognition is turned into a perspective that can benefit you.

Well, you know, it did take me some time. I mean, I'm hearing from people and I'm deeply moved to hear from people that this book is helping them do that. And that writing had helped me do that because, I mean, I got an email, Ben, from somebody. I can't even, I feel like I can, you know, my work here is done. I got this email from someone who said, like through my website that said, I've just been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. And I don't know what's coming. I'm 75 years old and I feel like, and he goes, reading your book, it just makes me feel

so much better. And I was like, wow. Yeah. So I guess the way, you know, there's sort of a 200 page answer to that, which is, which is the book. But I think the way that we get to see. the beauty in uncertainty and the possibility. Like that's the other side of the uncertainty coin is possibility.

Yeah. Like if everything is uncertain. Yeah. Then you're open to. Yeah. You're open to anything. Yeah. Yeah.

That's right. If everything is uncertain, then number one, that means that we can't count on what comes next, which therefore makes the present more valuable because this we do know right here right now. Like this is all we got. So that's true. But second of all, if everything's uncertain, then everything is possible. And there's so many examples of that being true when we let ourselves be that.

You know, uncertain circumstances can actually, if we stop being anxious about them, encourage us to become more creative and more innovative and better at solving problems, which is what we're going to need to get ourselves out of these tricky times. It feels to me, Jill, that, you know, that works really well. Everything that you just said works really well on the individual, right? Like a person, if you can change your perspective and you can be open to the possibility, that's great. But what happens when you're in a relationship where one person sees things that way? And the other person is hardwired to see things to worry about bleeding before you've been cut?

How do you bridge that? How do you communicate? when you're both seeing the world and seeing your problems and your challenges completely differently. No, that's really hard. Let me tell you about my perfectly balanced marriage and my seamless relationship. No, I mean, yeah, we all have to find our ways

through different approaches in relationships. And I think coming, I mean, in the same way that we help ourselves, sort of by checking in and being more mindful about, hold on, am I getting stressed about something that hasn't happened yet? I think having those open lines of communication is, you know, checking in like you seem to be really getting, you know, what's causing you to be so anxious about something not even happened yet? Like those kinds of, yeah, lines of communication are obviously pretty important.

Sometimes easier said than done. But yeah, just being compassionate with why, you know, we're all struggling with the realities in our world and sometimes it lands differently for all of us. Anxiety is a really common response. And yet, you know, somebody who says to you, you know, you're making it worse by being, by being anxious isn't actually helping. No, that's certainly not helpful. That's certainly not helpful. So it's not about judging that. anxiety, but I think, you know, I think asking, well, one thing that's very true, and I have a whole chapter in the book about this, is what are we paying attention to? And that really works well in

relationships, you know, are we putting our, humans have a negativity bias. We, our attention bias. We're more prone to remember the negative things in the news, in the, in the world, probably in our partner's behavior. But if we, if we, if we, Just pay more, like, be mindful of what are we paying attention to? Are we really focusing on the annoying qualities of our partner and the things that they're doing that are causing problems? If we consciously focus on and even give affirmation to, like the positive things that are actually, you know, the reasons we've fell in love with them in the first place or whatever, that can help create more common ground and more connection, which can allow for some of those maybe tougher conversations.

You know, it's interesting that you say that. One of the greatest lines ever written in any television show ever was in the final episode of the office when Andy Bernard said, I wish there was a way to know you were living in the good old times before you left them. How can you appreciate nostalgia without the distance from that moment that nostalgia normally requires? And I think that's what you're saying. How do we remember the good things about our spouse and our family? Yeah. Typically, you've got to wait till you've had some distance before you remember the good old times.

And it seems like that's what you're talking about. Well, it's funny. You know, there's a Harvard researcher named Ellen Langer who I've become really interested in. Oh, Jill, hold on, hold that thought because we're going to take a break. And when we come back, I want you to pick up right where you left off. And then we're going to talk about kids and family and as well as some real world examples of what happened at the Olympics. So don't go anywhere more in conversation with Jill Deakin when we come back on the Ben Mulroney show. So glad to continue my conversation with Jill Deakin, the author of A Love Affair with the Unknown,

leaning into the uncertainty of modern life. And as we were saying before the break, Jill, that when you accept and you lean into that uncertainty, there are possibilities that present themselves. But I wanted to go, I want to go back to kids and children because the stories that we hear about, you know, the worry that they won't be able to get a job and whatever job they get, they won't be able to afford their life and they won't be able to buy a house and they won't be able to build for the future. And then there's the climate anxiety.

I mean, there's a lot that people of a certain generation are dealing with. And so much of that is based on the uncertainty of the future. Yeah. Absolutely. And we, you know, we can, I think we do ourselves no favors by letting that worry train of anxiety and fretful thinking about things that haven't happened yet, to not only to take over our minds, but to kind of color the way we look at our kids and our partners right now. I think we, you know, one of the things that is a key, it's one of my favorite qualities in life.

And I think it's something I celebrate in wherever I find it, which is curiosity. And when you think of uncertainty as an openness to curiosity and an openness to possibility, that's why the book is called a love affair with the unknown. It's not like a strained relationship with the unknown because we're, you know, we feel uncomfortable about what we don't know. But if we think of it as an openness to curiosity, so instead of looking at your partner or your kids with sort of a, I'm very certain that I've got this kid all figured out and I know exactly what's the matter

and I can see that they're never going to be able to do this or I'm convinced that their life is going to go such and such a way, that's us being attached to our certainties. And it's in many cases probably not helping. So that idea of being curious. Yeah. And challenging your own assumptions about that you know everything about your kid or your partner or whatever. I mentioned before the break, Dr. Ellen Langer, who's a psychology professor at Harvard, that I started reading about and learning about when I was researching my book.

And she talks about doing a conscious exercise, this is especially with our partners, but probably with our kids as well, we think we know them, but trying every day to sort of find three new things about them, like really being so present and so tuned in to what they're all about that you're kind of almost noticing new things about them. It's kind of an interesting exercise. It's hard to do, by the way, I've tried it, to sort of force us a bit more into the present moment and stop our habit of making those judgments and those assumptions and those attachments to kind of control. I think a lot of people, you know, as parents, to a degree we feel we're supposed to control our kids.

like we make decisions to help set them up for the best future we can. Yeah. But we can't mistake that for control because we can't control our kids and our kids' futures any more than we can control the weather or politics or anything else. What about in our own lives? You know, everyone at some point has felt dissatisfied with the work that they do, with the job that they have. But that's certain.

That's a no known. This is my job and this is paying my bills. On the other side of this job is uncertainty. If I left this job to go find something that makes me more happy, there's risk there. There's uncertainty there. There's the unknown there. I guess I'm asking about inviting uncertainty into your life. You know, you've got, you're in your bubble.

It might not be perfect and it might not bring you joy. But if I invite uncertainty in my life, I'm inviting risk into my life. That's right. And, you know, you and I have both done that, right? Ben? Yeah. Taking a leap from a steady, sure thing kind of job. Yeah. And gone out because we had ideas and little percolating dreams of what else we might do.

And yeah, there's risk in that. And there's days when you think, whoops, what was that? What was I thinking? But, yeah, but I love the idea of growth. You know, we have to, there's a great. quote from Abraham Maslow, the creator of the hierarchy of needs, you know, humans hierarchy of needs, like the basic needs or like food, shelter, whatever. And as we evolve, higher up that ladder, you know, the idea of love and self-actualization

and all those loftier things and needs. And he says, we actually have, it's not like you achieve one and then you just work your way up the ladder. it's kind of like a game of snakes and ladders. You can move up, but then you flip back down. And his phrase is, fear must be overcome again and again. And growth must be chosen again and again. And I think that, you know, I'm not saying that everybody who's not happy in their job should quit it immediately and take a leap because that's, you know, there's specific situations for everyone.

But I love the line. There's a sort of if I could sum up my book in one. sentence, it's the idea that certainty keeps us comfortable. Yeah. So sticking within the job and the framework that you've already got may be comfortable, but uncertainty makes us capable. Yeah. And so the more we experience challenge, we don't always like it, but the more we, you know,

step out of our comfort zone and choose growth, we become more capable and we become stronger. And, you know, we don't. You don't know what you're capable of unless you test those limits, right? Unless you do put yourself in an uncertain arena. And the amount of things that I've failed at over the past five years is, I failed more in the past five years than I did in the previous 15, but it's also because I tried more in the last five years. Right. And how does that, like, doesn't that feel, there's obviously a fall on your face aspect of failure that isn't fun? but it's also kind of, I mean, if there weren't the risk of failure, then the stakes,

we wouldn't feel is alive. But I've seen my shortcomings as a father, right, in certain moments where I've, I know I've dropped the ball. I haven't done well. And it's, it's, and I've taken stock of it. And I think I'm a better father because of it. And I'm glad I have kids that are forgiving and understanding. But yeah, I think I'm a better father today because I have, I have, I have,

noticed in myself failings and failures and an inability to meet the moment. And I guess I've been comfortable coming up short. I'm trying not to do it, but I recognize it's going to happen every now and then. And I think because of those moments, I've been able to fill the gaps in the future. You know, and some of what that comes down to really all of this, there's an element of humility, right? Like the idea that we're supposed, I mean, there's an arrogance to any of us thinking that life is supposed to go exactly how we want to and be totally under our control. That's pretty entitled arrogant thinking and it's just not true. And so there's a humility to recognizing, yeah, I don't know what's coming for me, but and maybe I don't deserve to have it all go swimmingly.

but and and we are we we we get better at humility when we do you know fail and i for one would rather have a parent or a anybody in a relationship in my life who makes mistakes and and acknowledges them and talks through what what they've learned and how hard it was and how apologizes and whatever i'd rather that than somebody who thinks they've got it all under control and just fails along and and never makes any air quotes mistakes because nobody, nobody does bad. Yeah. And I, you know, I tell my kids all the time, like,

there are certain things you can control on certain things you can. We've been telling them for years. The one thing we won't, two things we won't accept. We won't accept ever hearing that you're an unkind person and that you didn't try your best. I said, there's plenty of things that you're not going to be good at, but you're going to try to be good at them.

And if you can wrap your head around the idea of, with Sierra de Berger, It's a bit more beautiful when you put in the effort knowing that you're going to fail. And that effort is the defining aspect of the battle. Absolutely. And yeah, the effort is what actually builds the resilience too. Like it's our attempts to try to do something that we don't know how to do right away. But as we struggle through the hard things and lean into that.

certainty. When we do achieve any of it, it feels so good. Well, Jill, I want to thank you for joining me. Again, I've been in conversation with Jill Deakin, the author of a love affair with the unknown leaning into the uncertainty of modern life. Jill, this went the way I hoped it would. I feel really satisfied having talked to you again. I really appreciate your time and conversation with you, and I look forward to doing it again soon. Thank you, Ben. It was a real pleasure. All the best to you. And just a reminder, if you want more BMS, we put a podcast out every day and find more content on X, Instagram, and on YouTube.

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