The Ben Mulroney Show - The Friday political panel -- Does Pierre Poilievre have a firm grip on his party?

Episode Date: November 7, 2025

Guest: Warren Kinsella, Former Special Advisor to Jean Chretien and CEO of the Daisy Group - Guest: Chris Chapin, Political Commentator, Managing Principal of Upstream Strategy - If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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For more details, visit hope in the city, Toronto.ca. That's hope in the city, Toronto.ca. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. And from a conversation with David Chilton to a conversation with two of my favorite guests here on the Ben Mulroney show, it's Friday, which means it's time for the Friday edition of this week in politics. Please welcome Warren Kinsella and Chris Chapin as always. Guys, welcome. Howdy? Great to be here.

Warren, I want to start with you because this time last week we were talking about an event that I was at where Olivia Chow was not invited because it was a celebration of allies. of the Jewish community. And you said it was a bad idea. You talked to your enemies. And then she went last weekend and declared that there had been a genocide in Gaza. And I personally believe it's one man's opinion that you can draw a line from those words to the feeling of empowerment in the mob that decided to attack Toronto Metropolitan University students. And I wonder what you make of that entire dynamic. Well, I agree with you. There is a causal connection between leadership and reality you know that's why the three of us have been involved with politics in our lives is we believe that there's a connection between how a

leader conducts him or herself and the things that they do and the money that they spend the votes that they make there's a connection between that and what happens in the real world and in the case of chow she advocated in front of the NCCM which which is the leading Muslim organization in this country, she advocated that Jews commit mass murder. And two days later, there was a crystal-knock type attack at TMU, and crystal knock for those who are unfamiliar with it,

and regrettably these days I think many people are, just about 90 years ago, this week, this week. There was a two-day program against Jews that, principally involved attacks on jews blood spilled and glass shattered so crystal knocked shattering of glass and it's happening again like right here right in the wake of olivia chow's statements the reason why i favor inviting people like olivia chow to jewish events is to put her feet to the fire to challenge her to let her get off the hook because by not a lot of inviting her, she has an excuse to stay away. I favor sticking them right in the limelight

and challenging them and saying, how dare you? How dare you say that? And look what happened next. But instead, they let her off the hook. And I think that was a mistake. Chris Chapin, what sort of conversations do you think are happening at City Hall? What sort of conversations are happening about this very, this very conversation, this very topic of a causal relationship between the mayor saying something that, in my opinion, not my opinion, it's factually incorrect and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, , and, and, and, and, and, and, I, I saw that, that, I saw that On November 15th, in the city of Toronto, there's going to be a flag raising for the flag of the state of Palestine.

I saw that that. Oh, and in Mississippi as well. That's exactly it. So, I mean, to answer your question, nothing, worse than nothing, I guess you could argue. Like, it's the only thing I'd challenge Warren. I get where he's coming from completely on having Olivia there and putting her feet to the fire. But she wasn't going to show up if you invited her anyway. She's been invited to these events.

she's baked in her position and sadly you know you're right that's why we all got involved in politics to some extent because we believe that leaders can and should lead us through I was drafted I was drafted nobody told me nobody told me that I had to leave my nice house in Montreal and I had to live in with the asbestos in 24 Sussex that was not part of the bargain anyway I interrupted you you can go back I think there's some people that wouldn't mind if you went back. Maybe not to the asbestos-filled house. Hard pass.

Not any time soon. I think just that's the reality, Ben. There's nothing. There's no discussion going on. There's the exact opposite going on at City Hall. And it's unfortunate. But there's a few vocal opponents at City Hall. But the truth is, within that mayor's office,

I think there's absolutely no discussion about this whatsoever. It's been rinse and repeat. It's only been one side of the equation that we see these attacks in the city of Toronto. and you know there's frankly what frustrates me the most and is that there's no accountability there never seems to be any sort of accountability uh from the nccm like there's you know they're they're quick to the draw to criticize any any case of Islamophobia but when it comes to anti-semitic behavior and attacks like this it just seems to be radio silence from them but what would you expect when it's radio silence from the mayor's office yeah all right in this next

question i kind of want to do something a little different i want to put you i want you guys to do the talking to each other here because we've got two people who understand how a caucus works. You understand the dynamics of it far more than I. And the fact that we're barely even talking about the budget right now because

the drama around floor crossing and people abandoning the conservative party is sort of dominating headlines. And on one side you've got people saying there are more floor crossers to come. On the other side you have people saying nothing to see here. I'll start

with you, Chris. From your vantage point, what's the state of play today in Ottawa? I mean, it's about as perfect as it could be for the prime minister. We're not talking about what I think was a fairly underwhelming budget. You know, I had high hopes when you throw out the term generational. And after everything we've been through over the last, I mean, I guess it's November. So at least the last 10 months of this year since President Trump took office, I had high expectations. Perhaps they weren't in a position to bring forward a generational budget because of the lack of certainty from south of the border. But the truth is, if I'm Mark Carney, I'm feeling pretty good right now that what they do best, what the Liberal Party in Ottawa does best is,

you know, a shell game. And we're talking about Chris Dantremont, on crossing the floor. We're talking about Matt Jenner's resignation. We're not talking about what I think once again should be the fair and open criticisms of what the liberal government's done and planning for this country. I feel no less certain about the direction our country's headed in, but I know all the talking heads in Ottawa. And here, here we are talking about this today, because it is what's interesting. And it's because, you know, can the Carney Liberals avoid the speculation? We've talked about the last couple weeks on this show about going to perhaps an election this fall or early next year for him to get a majority government or has he managed to do it behind closed doors, you know, outside the

caucus rooms and get a couple people to cross the floor and get him those extra key two or three votes, he desperately needed to have a de facto majority government. It looks like he's quite possibly on his way. You know, the Christauntramal from Nova Scotia crossing the floor, gets him one seat closer. Matt Joneru, you know, claims to, you know, that he's going to continue to vote with the conservative caucus, though he's not sitting with the conservative caucus. Yeah. And he's going to resign his seat in the spring. I mean, there's a whole lot of question marks over that resignation. But yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to cut you off because I want Warren to come in. Warren, when you hear all everything from yesterday, some of its bluster, some

of it's smoke and mirrors. Some of it might be the unfiltered truth. What does your brain tell you? What do your instincts tell you about what actually was going on over the past few days? Well, you know, as a citizen, as a voter, I don't like it. You know, I know, all of us know, the main reason people vote for a particular MP is because of party affiliation. That's what matters the most. That's why people work so hard to get a party nomination. And so, you know, I think if you run as a Tory and you decide to become a liberal, you should submit yourself to the people so they can decide whether they agree with you or not. And that's the case for Dantramo. That's the case for Leona Aalov, who went from the liberals to the Tories, Atwin, it went from the Greens to

liberals. Like I understand, you know, I've worked with caucuses. I've worked for a prime minister. Everybody's looking to make these acquisitions because they make your life easier. Certainly Mark Kearney's life is easier this morning than it was, you know, 72 hours ago. But I don't think it's right. You know, I think that those people should have the guts to submit themselves to the people and say, do you approve of what I did. Yeah. And if they say it's okay, well, then that it's okay. But my suspicion is, you know, in a couple of these cases, they're not going to be cool with it.

No, I just, you know, listen, I don't know what was in, Don Tramol's heart. I don't know what was in his mind, but when he walked into that first caucus meeting in front of people that he had gone to war against and they were cheering him like the conquering hero, I felt so uncomfortable watching it for him. I couldn't make sense of it for myself. Anyway, lots more to talk about after the break

with Warren and Chris, including no pipelines ever in BC, apparently. We'll try to make that make sense. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to this week in politics with Warren and Chris. And before we move on to another topic, let's finish up with the drama that's been happening in Ottawa. Warren, based on everything that you've seen, do you believe the rumors that there is some sort of palace coup

or some sort of push against Pierre Poliyev going on right now? Palace coup internally, no. But external events are definitely conspiring against him like he's in some trouble he's losing caucus members at a time when he needs them to be railing against the budget so instead of the focus on the budget which in the view of a lot of people was a bit of a wet firecracker you know they're talking we here we are we're talking about this the the numbers and the intrigue and the cloak and the cloak and dagger stuff going back and forth so it's not helpful to him is it fatal to him in the review I don't know

At the end of the day, I think it's like the movie Gladiator. You know, I picture Joaquin Phoenix there with his thumb up or thumb down. But in that case, it's Stephen Harper. Stephen Harper is the guy who's going to decide whether Pierre Polyev lives or dies and whether the conservative party moves on. And I guess the jury's still out. He's still backing Pauliev, but he can't be impressed by all of the nonsense that's been going on. Chris, I see Bob in your head.

Yeah, listen, I think, you know, ultimately, Ben, it's going to come down to what happens in January. I think we'd be fooling ourselves if we didn't just accept the fact that when Pierre Pauly have won the leadership three years ago, there were members of that party that did not like him. There were members of that caucus that did not support him. And so seeing somebody cross the floor for a Mark Carney-led government that unquestionably has certainly leaned center right compared to where Justin Trudeau was, I'm not surprised he might be able to pick off one or two. Ottawa is obviously buzzing that there might be two or three more that might cross the floor. But I think it's going to come down to that leadership review for Pierre in January.

And unless something drastically changes from now until then, you got to remember, this guy sold, you know, more memberships in the leadership race a couple years ago than the party's ever sold in the history of the party. He has an iron grip on the base of the Conservative Party of Canada. And so him losing it, no, I don't think so. Is there some, you know, turmoil inside a caucus? Maybe a little bit. But I think, you know, when it comes to the party in a palace coup, it couldn't be farther from the case. Warren. But I was in an event where Ben very ably led an event for Ben Abreth, Canada last night.

And I was in the crowd. And I'll tell you guys, I had a whole bunch of people. It was like I was the father confessor. And they come up to me and say they were Tories. And they just wanted me to know that they voted for Jean Choray. And they think that Jean-Aix would have been a better pick. I had a whole lot of people saying that. So, and in anybody defending Pierre Pahliav's honor, quite the opposite.

The people I'm hearing from, the readers I'm hearing from, the people getting in touch with me through post media are saying that they're not happy with the direction of the party. Because, you know, what Chris says is true. Sure, he sold a million memberships, but that was a long time ago. The reality now is he lost his own seat and he lost the election. And that's what Tories that I know are thinking about. Well, one guy who didn't lose a whole lot of elections was your former boss,

Jean-Cretzian, I wonder if he were around, if he were in office today, and he had a premier on the West Coast that said, I know that we said we're going to build projects of national importance, but the West Coast is closed. Closed for business. Go sell crazy someplace else.

We're all stocked up here. What would John Cretzian do? Well, he would sit down. I can do my imitation of him, but I probably shouldn't. And he would say, you know, Mr. Eby, it's true. under the constitution within your own province you're allowed to decide where pipelines go that's true but because it crosses a provincial border and because you know we need it as a country i get to decide that through something called the canada energy regulator and i think it's good for the country and i think

we should do that um krenzian is a pro pipelines prime minister he was certainly when i worked for him So, yeah, I think he would be saying to Mr. Eby, look, this is not a fight that you should be picking because you're not just picking this fight with Alberta, you're picking this fight with me. We need it. Clearly, we need it in light of the Trump threat, in light of what's happening to our economy nationally. We need pipelines. We, you know, we're a resource country. We shouldn't be leaving a resource in the ground. And I think that's what he would be saying to David Eby. What is David Eby thinking there, Chris? Because he's a, look, he's in a minority situation. I don't know. I wouldn't say that the mandate that he has allows him to speak with such

bluster. And just for our listeners' sake, in our next segment, we're joined by the leader of the opposition in British Columbia, John Rustad, to get his take on what's going on in his province, on a number of files, this pipeline prohibition being one of them. But Chris, what do you think he's thinking? I think he's thinking the same way the BCNDP have thought for years, regardless of a minority or a majority government, Ben, I think he's, you know, that party is staunchly anti-development, anti-pipeline of any capacity. And so he's just, you know, he's talking to his base and, you know, for a guy that could be in an election at any point, because he's a, you know, I think it's a one or two-seat difference between a minority and a majority

right now. He's, he's politicking. He's electioneering. And so, um, if you were the, do we have time for this right now? I thought, I thought it was all hands-on. I thought it was, we all got a role in the same direction. I thought everybody had to be on Team Canada. I mean, it was six months since the last election. And this is the kind of a pushback that a pipe on the game. I just want to take issue with the Chris said. Like, it's not true that every new Democrat is against developing resources.

Rachel Notley was pro oil and gas. She really was. And she paid a price with her own party for it. Like she, but that's the choice. a new Democrat has got, am I going to be a sensible, mature new Democrat premier, or am I going to be an idiot? And Eby is on the bubble right now. Which way is he going to go? It's like clearly the country needs this. British Columbia needs this. Of course. Chris, Chris, we saw, we saw him jettison of what had been gospel for that party in the last election, which was, you know,

the entire insanity around safe supply in that problem. They threw that away and because they knew that that was going to lose them the election. So could he have a late game conversion later on, possibly? But again, like, do we have time for the politicking right now? We need pragmatism. We need people understanding that there is no time to waste. Of course, Ben.

I don't disagree with you. I disagree with Warren in the sense that, you know, British Columbia, New Democrats different than a, you know, trying to win in Alberta. I mean, Wob Cano's been pro pipeline. I think it's different when you're the last line of defense for the pipeline. Like when you're literally the last province that can say no to this and you're a new Democrat, I think it puts you in a different position in terms of the stance you take. But we went through a general election where the prime minister himself couldn't decide really whether he was pro pipeline or not then. And so when we talk about,

you know, do we need to be pragmatic? Absolutely. Are we being pragmatic? I don't think so. I think you look at what Warren said about what correction would have said to Evie. Well, why isn't Prime Minister Carney saying that to EB. Why is he not making it crystal clear? We need this for national security, for our economy, and just for our economic wealth and security as a whole. And so we could be having those conversations. I don't think it should be left up to one of the 10 premiers to block it. But until we see leadership out of Ottawa, that is his constitutional right to at least say it's not coming through here, ship at east. Warren Kinsella, Chris Chapin, thank you so much. As always, joining us on Friday.

It's a real high point for me. Thank you so much. Enjoy your weekends. You did good last night, Ben. Thank you, my friend. I appreciate it. And we'll talk about that next week on the show. But I'm very excited to let you know that coming up after the break,

we are joined for the very first time by the leader of the opposition in British Columbia, the leader of the British Columbia Conservative Party, John Rustad. We're going to talk about pipelines. We're going to talk about land claims. We're going to talk about all sorts of issues that could have ramifications, not just west, but clear across this country. Don't go anywhere. This is the Ben Mulroney.

Thank you.