The Ben Mulroney Show - The Monday news headline Hot Takes! Floor crossing hypocrisy?

Episode Date: April 13, 2026

Guest: Dimitri  Soudas, Former Director of Communications for Prime Minister Stephen Harper  Guest: Max Fawcett, Lead Columnist for Canada's National Observer If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Conditions apply. I always love starting the week with these two gentlemen. Please say hi to Dmitri Soutis and Max Fawcett. Dmitri is the former director of communication for Prime Minister Stephen Harper. And Dmitz, I can see your old boss this evening at an event. And Max Fawcett is the lead columnist. Canada's National River. Well, I guess I'm going to see you.

Oh, yeah, we're at Castle Loma. I'll see you there. Fantastic. I'm going to rush there after work. And Max, welcome, welcome back to the show. I hope you had a good weekend. Yeah, now I'm feeling left out. Join us.

Yeah, come join us, absolutely. Hey, Demetia, let's start with you. I mean, I see you in Toronto, but you are a resident of Quebecer. You've got yourself a new premier in the province of Quebec. Yes, new premier. So, Madame Frischette, Sylvie Pachette, was Khrushchev, I'm sorry, was elected yesterday as KAC leader. The big question in Quebec is, is she going to be the next Mark Carney or the next Kim Campbell?

And the challenge that Madame Kreschette is now having is the KAC is seen as a nationalist defend Quebec within the United Canada, but with a conservative slant on the economy and finance. I can tell you that many supporters of her opponent Bernard Rhinvel are currently considering, seriously considering, joining the Conservative Party of Quebec. So what's going to happen over the next couple of months prior to the official kickoff of the election campaign is you're going to see both the Parti Quebecua, the Conservative Party of Quebec and the Quebec Liberal Party trying to take what's left of La CAC, which is currently polling at around 15%. her big challenge is how does she convince Quebecers who want change, that she represents change after having sat around the cabinet table for the last four years. One last question for you on this, Demetre, that'll bring in Max. But typically when there is a leadership race, you can expect interest, you can expect enthusiasm.

Sometimes it's temporary. But has the KAC experienced a bump in the polls because of this leadership race? No, they have not. On the contrary, they've seen a slow and steady decline. So it's tough slugging. Most predictions right now, what they show on the ground, is that the cacca risks going back to zero seats. Interesting.

Interesting. Max, what's the view from Alberta on Quebec politics? I mean, it's like a different universe for us. You know, we don't change governments, but once a generation. And even then, it's a very gradual process. The thing I admire about Quebec and Quebec politics is they are so willing to mix up the table every so often. You know, they go NDP, and then they go liberal, and then they go conservative, and then they go block Quebec. Like, there's just such a willingness to move your vote based on the current events of the day and what the parties are offering.

I think we could all benefit from thinking about politics that way, being more open-minded to change and new personalities and shifting our allegiances. I think it's actually a really healthy dynamic. Well, and that's the one thing I've always credited the KAC with, whether or not I've felt any allegiance to their policies or their vision, was they broke the binary of Quebec politics. And it used to be the only driving question was, did you want to separate from Canada or not? And depending on how you answered that question,

you either went it to this party or that party, which meant secondary or sometimes even tertiary from that, were your opinions on, Are you left-leaning? Are you right? Do you believe in government intervention or not? And to me, it did not allow for a mature political discussion on all fronts. And I credit them with breaking that binary. It might have been temporary, but we'll have to see because it looks like the Conservative Party of Quebec is finding its footing right now. Let's move on to the federal conversation because Abacus data, that's what I think is a pretty surprising poll, Max Fawcett.

The liberals are leading by 6% nationally. Now, that doesn't take into account the popularity of the respective leaders. But I am surprised it is as close as that. Well, I mean, it's one poll. So I think are wise to look at the averages. The averages are much more strongly in favor of the liberals. But, you know, if your best poll as a conservative is minus six nationally and headed towards a majority for the liberals,

I'm not sure that's quite the silver lining. that some folks are spinning it as. But look, if you're Pierre Pahliav, you'll take any good news you can get right now because you know that your party is not winning any of these by-elections today. And you have a pretty good sense that there are probably more floor crossers

coming from your caucus in the days afterwards. So, yeah. You know, minus six on a federal poll, sure, take the win. Well, we're going to talk about floor crossers in just a minute. But, Dimitri, you know, parallel in conjunction to that polling data, Abacus asked Canadians,

is Canada heading in the right direction? And 43% said we're on the wrong track. 40% said the right direction. And I'm trying to square the circle. Explain to me how more people believe that Canada's on the wrong track. And yet the liberals who have essentially been driving this car on that track for 11 years are maintaining that lead. Well, because in part Canadians right now view that the last,

10 years under Justin Trudeau are obviously things that they continue to blame Justin Trudeau for, but Mark Carney has now been Prime Minister for a year. What we will end up seeing in the next little while is more and more Canadians saying the country is not in the right direction if Mark Carney does not succeed in delivering actual results. If we look at the last 12 months, other than the Canola deal and the fish deal with China, the really, haven't been any major deliverables from agreements or bilateral agreements he's made internationally, but also domestically. Has anything changed in terms of cost of living? Has anything changed in terms of housing? Not necessarily a good way.

Right. And that's the point. So at some point, the runway will run out. What I'm watching between now and July is whether or not the government of Canada is actually going to finalize a deal on Kuzma. And what Canada has signaled is it must be between the U.S., Mexico and Canada, which meaning they're not willing to go bilaterally. And I think that's going to be another big benchmark. But at some point, they do have to deliver. We're missing deadlines on pipelines, for example. Yeah.

Well, let's, I want to combine two stories here. I want to combine the by-elections and the floor crossers. Because the liberals need to win just one of these three. And it's entirely plausible they're going to win all three. for them to get their majority. And the question I have, and I'll start with you, Max, and if we don't have enough time on this, we're going to carry it over into the next segment,

is I wonder if this active courting of other people from other parties is going to get to be too much for Canadians. Like if they have their majority, this idea of constantly going and trying to curry favor with people outside of your party ranks, wonder if at some point they're going to say, okay, enough is enough. And it's not a good look. How do you see it?

I think it's highly unlikely that Canadians form a strong opinion about floor crossers. I suppose anything is possible. But by and large, this looks like a government that is winning support from places you would not expect it to. You know, you're getting hard, you know, small sea conservatives like Maryland, glad you crossing the floor. You're getting pretty significant new Democrats. crossing the floor. It starts to look like a unity government during wartime, where you have this sort of coalition of almost all the partisan forces. And I don't think Canadians mind that one bit.

What they want from their politicians is not for them to squabble and, you know, and valorize their partisan differences. They want them to work together on behalf of the country. And that is exactly what is happening. You are seeing people from all sides work together to get things done for Canadians. That's what people want. And look, I think that's a fair way of looking at it. I I think floor crossers are like a Rorschach test. You're going to see what you want to see in it. And there are people who absolutely see things your way on that. However, when we come back from the break,

we're going to drill down into, I think, Marilyn Glad you said something out loud that we all instinctively know is true. But the fact that she said it out loud, I think exposes a pretty cynical aspect to our politics. That, again, once you ring that bell, you can't unring it. So we're going to discuss that after the break right here on hot takes on the Ben Mulroney show. Not just Ben Mulroney. You're also listening to Dimitri Sudas and Max Fawc.

Guys, thanks so much for sticking around. Before the break, Max laid out sort of the optimistic take on how Canadians could interpret all of these floor crossers. That it's a unity government, almost like in wartime. And that's an absolute fair way of seeing things. However, I want to point out an analysis or a take by a. Martin Petricain, who's from the logic. And he explained his perspective on why someone like Marilyn Gladeau crossed over to the liberals. Some crimes are so shocking.

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Season 8 drops April 21st. But you can hear the first story now, one month early, only on Amazon music. She basically said, I looked at the math. I saw that there's going to be two, the two by-elections that they're probably going to win.

They're probably going to get a majority. Ergo, I should probably get on the boat now as opposed to later when the ship is sailed. And the liberals sort of appetite for this kind of thing is probably going to be slated somewhat. And then she said the following. And I know I'm not supposed to use props, but I'm going to read it.

She said the following. I had sent housing and infrastructure minister Gregor Robinson when I was reelected in 2025, a one page of all the things that lined up in this file that we wanted in Sarnia. It went really nowhere until I crossed the floor. This is what I'm hoping will be the result. This is politics in a nutshell.

She is cynical, the liberals are cynical, and together it works well. And guess what? Sarnia is going to get some new roads. Now, Demetri, our prime minister has said, he stated that his government will, quote, work for and with everyone in Canada. In his April 2025 victory speech and subsequent addresses, including at the liberal convention, he emphasized a vision for, quote, Canada for all. But it seems like what Marilyn Gladu said, unless you bleed liberal red, you're not necessarily going to get the things that liberals are going to get. that doesn't feel to me like the version of this that Max has suggested it could be.

So I appreciate Max's optimism and it's a fair assessment. I would say that on floor crossers, Canadians do have strong feelings, and they don't like floor crossers. They see it as an act of betrayal. At the same time, I would like anybody, anybody please stand up that can tell me the last time there was an election where the ballot question was about four frosters. So when we go to the polls again, Canadians will not say, I want to punish the liberals because they took too many conservative MPs. They will vote based on pocketbook economy, cost of living, whatever, the issue that impacts their daily life at the moment of the election. The second point I will make, and I find this highly hypercritical, I ask myself one simple question.

If Pierre Paulyev was at 169 seats and three, four, five liberals and even an NDPer would want to cross over and join his minority government in order for it to become a majority government, would he say, no, sorry, you were elected as liberals and new Democrats. If you wish to join the Conservative Caucus, you first need to resign, run in a by-election as a conservative. And if you get elected, then please welcome to our caucus. I do have a problem with hypocrisy because we as conservatives had the opportunity to pass into law a piece of legislation that came to a vote by the NDP that said floor crossers should be forced to resign and run in a by-election. And we as conservatives voted against the law.

So I will simply say, how are they heroes when they join our team and traders when they leave? Listen, I am not so naive to say that I don't think that what they're doing is wrong because the rules allow them to do it, right? And I'm not, and just because. And I'll add this. Canadians always have the final say. There will be an election. And in the case of, for example, Scott Bryson, who left the conservatives to join liberals, Canadians chose to re-elect him.

In the case of Dave Emerson, who left the liberals and joined the conservatives, he chose not to run again because he would not get elected. So to all those who say Canadians should have the final say, newsflash, Canadians and voters always have the final say. And listen, this is not an affront to my morality. I'm not so naive that I don't appreciate how this sort of thing works. But let's also remember that this isn't necessarily

only opportunism coming from the floor crossers themselves. And I don't know if you guys have heard this yet, but there's an MP for Edmonton Northwest named Billy Moran. Yes. Yeah, he was caught on a hot mic. He's a conservative. Let's listen to Billy Moran not knowing he's necessarily being recorded. You want to run a story on floor crossing?

Are you the next one? No, they're trying to poach me. Are they? Oh, yeah. You're in a room of reporters. Yeah. Is that a surprise? They're asking you to move?

Yeah, he said he's not going anywhere, but he said he's in a room full of reporters. He said they're trying to poach me. And like I said, something like this, you're right, Demetri, this is not going to stick to them necessarily. But if the narrative is you're coming for everybody, you're coming for everybody. And if we're learning from Marilyn Gladeu,

she's saying, I couldn't get anything for my constituents unless I was a liberal. I don't know. I mean, if I were advising them, in good faith, if I was advising the liberals, I was like, you're getting your majority guys. Pump the brakes. Go do your work and stop trying to bring people over.

Because if the narrative is come over and we'll give you some roads, that's not a really good look for government. Okay. And I apologize, Max, I'm monopolizing the conversation here, and I will be brief. Why didn't Aaron O'Toole and Andrew Shear lose any MPs? So, yes, the liberals are offering. What are the offering? You get to sit in government caucus and have more influence on decisions that we make.

But let's ask ourselves the other question. Why are they leaving? Yeah, all fair questions. All fair questions. I don't have any answers, but so I'm going to throw this wrong back to Max. Yeah, I mean, look, I will quote none other than Stephen Harper, who once said in my observation, the only parties that really have this obsession are the parties that no one ever crosses over to. So that's the long and the short of it is if the liberal offer was not attractive, nobody would be crossing.

And I don't think the offer is more roads or more goodies for your riding. I think it's you get to be on the winning team right now, or you get to be away from peer Oliov, who is a very exacting, demanding, often unpleasant leader. Maybe that's enough for people to leave. And maybe Marilyn, glad you felt the need to justify it on some other basis. But, you know, at the end of the day, no one would be crossing if he was the captain of a team that felt like it had a chance to win. Max, I want to stick with you as we zoom out and look at global affairs. Every time I think the UN can't give itself, can't give itself another self-inflicted wound,

something like this happens where the Islamic Republic of Iran was just nominated to help shape policy on women's rights, human rights, disarmament and terrorism. And I believe Canada voted for it as well. What do we do with something like that? I mean, crumple it up and throw it in the trash. I think one of the great opportunities we have right now in the midst of all the Trump chaos and all the institutions that he's destroying is we get to build new ones. And I think we need to build a new.

one where, you know, the Russians don't have a veto on the Security Council. China doesn't have a veto on the Security Council. Wait, hold on. I got to ask, Max, are you suggesting we all get behind Donald Trump's Board of Peace? Absolutely not. But I am saying that the United Nations has very clearly outlived its purpose. It is not doing any of the things it says it's supposed to do. And we can build new institutions that do those jobs for us.

Yeah. Listen, I like the cut of your jib, my friend. Dimitri, last word to you. This is a historical day. Max Fawcett has said it out loud, and I completely agree with him. And let's be blunt then. This is why people question the purpose and the reason to be of the United Nations. When you name the world's biggest human rights violator of women's rights, children's rights, men's rights, any rights you can imagine,

when they get named on a board responsible for such a matter, then as an early. organization, there is zero credibility. Gentlemen, I'm just going to say this. This was one of my most favorite conversations with you guys. I thank you very much. Dmitri, I might be a little late tonight, so just tell them I'm going to have the steak, okay? I don't want that vegetarian or vegan option. If you don't shut up on time, I'll have your steak too.

All right. Max Fawcett, thank you so much, my friend. You have a great week. Pleasure, guys. Enjoy. Come to Survivor 50. Wednesdays on Global. chose you to represent 25 years of the greatest adventure on television.

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