The Ben Mulroney Show - The political Panel - Could Canada build its own defence manufacturing industry?

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

Guest:  Max Fawcett - Columnist, National Observer Guest:    Michael Burns  –  CEO of PurposeU If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: @benmulroneyshow Twitter: @benmulroneyshow TikTok: @benmulroneyshow Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show and welcome back to This Week in Politics, our Monday edition. We're joined by Max Fossett, columnist for The National Observer, and Michael Burns, the CEO of PurposeU. To the both of you, I say I hope you had a great weekend and welcome to the show. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. All right, so in an effort to start off the week in a glass half full kind of way, let's start with a couple of stories that speak to sort of appeal to our better angels. And the first one is that, you know,

in all of this talk of Donald Trump coming and screwing up our economy and everything that we're trying to do to improve it, could Mark Carney's military campaign in all of this talk of Donald Trump coming and screwing up our economy and everything that we're trying to do to improve it, could Mark Carney's commitment to military spending be the boost to our national economy that we so desperately need? There's a piece in the Globe and Mail, but there have been pieces over the course of the summer as well that suggested, look, if we take a hit on automotive,

the automotive industry, well, that military spending could come in and transform one of those factories, one of those plants into a military truck, sort of factory, and we could be building, we could be building for the military and thereby sort of boosting the economy. Max, let's start with you. What are your thoughts on this? I think there's a lot of opportunity right now in in the moment we're in to kind of change the the natural Canadian inclination to say no. You know, I think that is sort of part of our national culture. Unfortunately, we are much more inclined to say no than yes. And I think we're

saying we're saying yes a lot more right now to things, whether it's, you know, infrastructure projects, whether it's expanding the military. And there is opportunity here. I think we're saying we're saying yes a lot more right now to things, whether it's, you know, infrastructure projects, whether it's, you know, expanding the military and there is opportunity here. I think the real question is how long does it last? How long does this moment? How do we take the moment and turn it into a movement before we go back to saying no, because rather than yes, you know, yeah, yes, maybe. Well, how much of that, Max, I'll stick with you for a second, and then we'll turn the mic over to Michael. How much of that is going to, I mean, what happens when Mark Carney delivers his first budget?

I think we're going to get sticker shock then. Don't you think that that could be a moment where this maybe gets turned on its head? I'm not sure that the deficit is going to be the thing that turns it. My sort of longstanding belief, and I don't think it's been proven wrong yet, is that voters don't actually care about deficits. People do, some people in the community do, but

voters as a whole are happy to spend money, especially when it's future generations that'll have to pay for it. So I don't think that the deficit will be the thing that gets people to think twice. I think the rubber will meet the road on things like consultation, things like conflicts between provincial governments and federal governments, where interests start to collide. And we haven't gotten there yet. And we will get there. But it's important, I think, to build up as much momentum right now as possible so we can push through whatever resistance may lie ahead. Michael, you were on the front lines for so long of sort of our national relationship, which was very unhealthy for a very long time, anemic in fact, with our military and how we treated not just our brave

men and women who were willing to lay down their lives for the flag, but for those who had already done so as veterans. So this moment must feel good to you for somebody who was standing up for these things for years. Oh, listen, there's no question. I mean, like so many other Canadians, I've been a long time advocate for increased military spending. The question is, if we're going to spend billions and, you know, Prime Minister Carney has been very clear that he wants to get us up to 2% this year and 5% by 2035. If we're going to spend billions, we might as well make it work for both national security and economic growth. And to add what Max was saying, that's going to mean investments in shipbuilding, aerospace, AI, cybersecurity, not because there are military

needs, but because they're critical industries for Canada's future competitiveness. Yeah, I completely agree. All right, well, let's turn our attention to another positive story. There's a survey out there that says that most Canadians are emboldened and feel positive over what appears to be most provincial governments and the feds rowing in the same direction.

There's a lot of, it feels like when they get together to have a conversation, it is more productive today than it has been in the past. You know, we're used to our provinces squabbling with the, the, the, the, the feds, the feds plead poverty. The, the province says we want X, Y, and Z. I mean, there's always, there's always a reason to squabble and it feels like there's less and less a reason today. This speaks to Max's point, Michael. Yeah, listen, I look I give Prime Minister Carney a lot of credit early in his tenure. I think he's made a real effort to build functional relations with both the provinces and the

territories. I understand that he is going to be attending part of the meetings of the premiers that's happening in Muskoka over the next few days. And look, I also think Canadians are just relieved to see signs of cooperation after years of, you know, political theater and finger pointing. And, you know, we've got some big issues in front of us as a country, a lot of headwinds. We've got to, we're not always going to agree, but we've got to get on the same page and move in the same direction. And Max, look, I'm, I, I, my perspective these days is I will champion when, when I, I see a reason to champion, I'm going to criticize when I think that's helpful as well. I think

criticism can be helpful. And right now I'm seeing a lot of reason to be, um, to be excited, uh, a lot of reason to, to be emboldened, a lot of reasons to stay positive. I, I am waiting to see a little more meat on the bone. I'm hearing, I'm seeing a lot of reasons to stay positive. I am waiting to see a little more meat on the bone. I'm hearing, I'm seeing a lot of meetings between the provinces and Ottawa. And I have no doubt a lot of work is happening where the cameras are not on. But at what point do you think we're gonna see

actually meaningful legislation put forth or ideas of, when do you think we're gonna have interprovincial trade barriers actually a thing of the past? Well, I think, you know, to some extent, that's on the provinces to decide when they want to disarm their their interprovincial barriers. But we have seen progress there. I think the summer is is for meetings. It's for talk. It's for back behind the scenes conversation.

And I think in the fall, when when the you know, when the parliament sits again, we are going to see some big moves. You know, I've heard I've heard rumors here in Calgary about things that will make people in Alberta very happy. You know, and I think to your broader point and to the point of the story you referenced, I think Canadians want to see their leaders working together.

I don't think they like it when they're squabbling. And especially in a moment like right now where the stakes are so high, it looks bad to be kind of offside of that. And unfortunately, there is one premier who is very conspicuously offside of that consensus. And it's the premier of my province here in Alberta, Danielle Smith. She is still going into business for herself, fighting Ottawa on everything she can get her hands on. And maybe it works here, maybe it works with her constituency. But, you know, nationally, it's not a good look. Well, I think I think you also have issues with with the

premier of British Columbia, as well as the premier of Quebec, who seem to be fighting for their own little fiefdom as well. Michael, how do you see things? Well, look, I think the real tests will be when the rubber hits the road on big issues like climate pipelines, inter-provincial trade, and ultimately, who's going to fit or foot the bill for big infrastructure projects? That's going to be the real test. And look, it's okay. I mean, the system is designed for tension. It's designed for disagreement. But I think, you know, with the tone that the prime minister has today is very different than it was a year ago.

There's adults back in the room and I think we can get big things done if we work together. Well, that's right. It's only when you come out of it do you notice what you're actually in. And I think we just took for granted that every single time a provincial leader

was gonna talk to his federal, his or her federal analog, it was going to be contentious. It was going to be a fight over complete competing visions. And the fact that we are we are witnessing something different now is not only refreshing, but it's a reminder that that the way things were in the past are not how things necessarily have to be in the future. And I think I just assumed because I got used to it that that how things were or how things must be. And this to me is a not just a refreshing change, but almost a shock to the system in the best possible way. Max. Yeah, it's you know, it's one of the silver linings and there are very few of them in Trump and everything he's brought to the table, which is that we have a common, I'm not gonna say enemy, but a common purpose,

a common project. And politics tends to orient itself around conflict and tension. And like you said, for the past decade or longer, it's the tension has been between Ottawa and the provinces. And suddenly we have a much bigger threat, a much bigger issue. And most of us are coming together and realizing that.

And it is nice to see the sense of purpose. And it's nice to see that we can dream about getting things done. There has been a smallness in Canadian politics, I think, for a long time. And it is nice to see that that has, for the moment, left the stage. I'm going to give you the last statement on this, Michael, in about 15 seconds. Sure. Look, I think there's always a risk that a province or two are going to give you the last statement on this, Michael, in about 15 seconds. Sure. I think there's always a risk that a province or two are going to decide to break ranks.

But the key is to make federalism work as a negotiation, not a contest. Respect provincial jurisdictions, but lead with national ambition. I think that's the message the prime minister is sending. Well said. All right, listen. How Canada deals with Donald Trump moving forward

could have a lot to do with, how Canada deals with Donald Trump moving forward could have a lot to do with how the EU deals with Donald Trump. We're getting a sense of their retaliatory policies coming up. So that's the next topic on deck right here on the Ben Mulroney Show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. We march on alongside our good friends, Max Fawcett and Michael Burns. Thank you both for sticking around for this week in politics. All right. How, how Canada deals with Donald Trump moving forward? I mean, he's such a, he's such a moving target. We got to follow the bouncing ball wherever

it might go on any given day. Now we're hearing from Howard Lutnick that of course we're going to renegotiate the USMCA even as he lobs bombs and changes his mind left, right and center. But the, our guiding light by and large has been let's look and see what the EU does. Maybe we can glean some some understanding from them. But as far as I'm concerned, and Max will start with you, the EU relationship with the United States is so vastly different from ours. I don't know that there's anything that we can learn from how they're dealing with them. Yeah, it was interesting. A couple weeks ago there were stories circulating ours. I don't know that there's anything that we can learn from how they're dealing with them.

Yeah, it was interesting. A couple of weeks ago, there were stories circulating suggesting that we should follow the EU's lead because the EU hasn't retaliated unlike Canada, which has some retaliatory tariffs in place. Now the EU is retaliating. I think it speaks to the challenge of doing these negotiations with Trump. It's like playing chess with a pigeon, right? There is no strategy that is gonna work. And all you have to do is try to keep as many of your pieces on the board as possible. I think the real thing here is no one wants to go first. Everyone else wants to watch the other guys go first and try to learn whatever they can from their example.

But I think you just muddle through and hope that he gets distracted by other things. Maybe the Epstein stuff forces him to the table for a quick quote unquote win on trade. But I think everyone is in the same spot. They're confused. They have no strategy. And they're just trying to, you know, play for time. Yeah, it's impossible to develop a strategy with somebody who keeps changing the rules of engagement. And there are the

there are those acolytes who say, Oh, this is proof of what a genius negotiator he is. Well, if it were, if it were a negotiation amongst equals, he wouldn't be able to pull this nonsense. But because he's the American president, he, he, he, he, he negotiates from a position of strength in an effort to weaken his opponent. That doesn't make him a great negotiator. That just makes him a bully as far as I'm concerned, Michael. But the fact remains, we do have to negotiate with him. And again, I keep looking at the EU example, there are very few, there are very few similarities between their trade relationship with him and ours in terms of geography, population, what we trade with. I mean, there's so few, so few parallels.

I don't know. I don't know what we can glean from their experience and apply it to ours. Well, listen, I mean, like, do I think we should be paying close attention to what's happening with the EU? Absolutely. I think what we heard this week was a warning shot for them. And I think, and rightly so, we've been obviously very focused on NAFTA 2.0 that we haven't really built a contingency plan. And if the US decides to double down on buy America tariffs or rules of origin, we could be the first in the blast zone. So, well, the EU is drafting a playbook. The question is, where is ours? We've got to diversify our markets from Indo-Pacific and Latin America and Europe.

And I think waiting for Washington to be nice isn't a strategy, it's wishful thinking at this stage. Well, yeah, and then you got Howard Lutnick, who's come out and he said, no, of course the USMCA isn't dead. We're of course gonna renegotiate. And I just, I feel like I'm getting a whiplash from the different responses from

different people in Washington. You know, we are we've been taking advantage of the Americans forever. We can't we can't seem to get ahold of this initial, you know, new security and trade agreement, let alone start renegotiating the USMCA. I go back max to what I said before, I mean, they are sowing chaos trying to keep us off, you know, on our heels. And in order I don't I don't know, I don't know what the end goal is. But I see a bad faith actor on the other side of the table. I don't see somebody who genuinely wants to renegotiate.

Oh, deeply. And why, you know, why would you renegotiate a trade deal that they signed when they're just going to break it again, when it becomes convenient to them? I think, I think the most valuable commodity right now for Canada is time. We need to stall as much as possible, you know, their actions against us, you know, play for time to the midterms. And then hopefully, yeah, political winds are advantageous to us. I almost feel like Carney should propose having a trade negotiation in public just to show how incoherent their position is, how ludicrous some of their stuff is. But I don't think there's any winning here.

It's just how much are we going to lose by? And I think we need to be willing to put as many things on the table as possible. And maybe that's supply management. Maybe that's all the things that the Americans claim they want to talk about. Let's talk about it in public because this behind the scenes stuff, it just feels like we're treading water and going nowhere. What, what do you think of Max's idea, Michael? It's interesting. It certainly would make as Donald Trump likes great television. So yeah, let's see how, how that plays out. But look But look, at the end of the day, our relationship with the US needs to work

and we can't afford to be passive. I don't think we're gonna walk away from these negotiations, but we need to walk taller. And so what does that mean? I think it means that we need to assert our value, which includes our energy, stability, talent, and natural resources. That's gonna be our leverage.

But when he starts from a position of, we don't need the Canadians for anything, we don't need their gas, we don't need their oil, we don't need their cars, we don't need their lumber, we don't need their steel or aluminum, we don't need anything from them. How on earth are you supposed to negotiate with somebody who that's their opening salvo? Yeah, and listen, that that's his, that's his approach to everything. And so, you know, we've got to be the adults in the room, we've got to, as I said,'s his approach to everything. And so, you know, we've got to be the adults in the room.

We've got to, as I say, push forward the things that can hurt their markets. And quite frankly, a number of the border states are vulnerable to some of our measures. We saw what happened when, you know, we didn't put California wines in the LCBO when we went after their whiskey. Look, there are some things that we can do, but at the end of the day, look, we know that they're the 800 pound gorilla, so we're gonna have to be really careful

how we thread this needle. Max, what do you think the likelihood is of this Trump presidency, this one term Trump presidency being a blip on an otherwise very productive bilateral relationship, or has the sort of the MAGA perspective on everybody being an enemy and everybody taking advantage of the United States

being a dominant narrative in the Republican party moving forward. I mean, are we gonna have to deal with Trump 2.0 and whoever replaces him at the head of the GOP moving forward? Or is this a guy we just have to wait out in the hopes of reestablishing normal relationships after the next presidential election? I think that was the strategy in the first Trump term. When Americans reelected him with

a pretty considerable mandate, I think Canada and every other trading partner in the world with the United States has to reevaluate. So I think it's a tipping point. We're not going to abandon trade with the United States. We were always going to be geographically connected, but we have to use this as an opportunity to reorient our trade relationships and find ways to attract investment to this country

with a sense of urgency that we haven't had because we've always sort of counted on the Americans to be there and be our friends. And we can't count on that anymore. So there's some good that can come from this, but we have to have that sense of purpose. And it's gonna have to outlive whatever happens over the next three plus years until Trump is out of office.

Michael, I see a future for Canada where we are far more self-sufficient, where we are far more robust militarily, where we have a far more diversified trade portfolio in terms of our partners around the world. I see a future where these key important projects of national interest allow us to get key natural resources to market.

I just wonder whether we're gonna do it in time to stave off some pretty significant economic headwinds that we're already dealing with. Well, listen, time will tell whether or not we're able to achieve those objectives. We know that we've got another three and a half years of a Trump presidency. It'll be interesting to see,

Trump 3.0 president advance, uh, and, and still carrying that magnet mega message, it's going to be challenging. There's no question. That's why we need to ensure that, you know, our prime minister and our premiers and others are working together, um, effectively in order to push forward the kind of case that we need, that we are a stable supplier of things like energy and critical minerals. We're also a key security partner for the US. I think we just haven't done a good enough job selling that, both to the president and others

in that administration. I don't know. I think we tried our best to sell it over the course of months in the form of the Doug Fords of the world going out there and going on any single camera that would have him. I just don't know that there was anybody on the receiving end that wanted to buy it. Hey, Max and Michael, thank you so much for joining me. I hope you have a great end to your week. Well, beginning of your week, actually. Hey, you as well.

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