The Ben Mulroney Show - The Political panel -- should convicted terrorists live in minimum security townhouses?

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

GUEST: Regan Watts, Founder Fratton Park Inc., former Senior aide to minister of finance Jim Flaherty  Guest: Tom Parkin, Principal at Impact Strategies and Canadian columnist and commentator If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Twitter: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ TikTok: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a paid advertisement for better help. These days, it feels like everywhere you turn, someone's got a new theory on how to improve your mental health, from ice baths to meditation apps. There's a lot of noise out there about what's supposed to make you feel better. But the truth is, finding what actually helps you isn't always that simple. When it comes to mental health, there is no one-size-fits-all solution. That's why speaking with someone who is trained to listen and to help,

someone who can meet you where you are and help you figure things out, can make such a difference. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. BetterHelp connects people with mental health professionals from around the world offering access to a huge range of experiences and expertise. They've worked with millions of people already and with thousands of therapists available,

it is easy to find somebody who fits your needs. It's flexible too. You can schedule a session with just a click and you're free to change therapists whenever you need to until you find the right fit. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash Mulruni today to get 10% off your first month.

That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash Mulruni. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've been following the news, like really following it, you know how exhausting it can be. Politics, conflict, uncertainty. It's a lot to carry. And for many men, there's this expectation to stay calm, stay in control, and not talk about how it's affecting you.

But the truth is, you're allowed to feel overwhelmed. You're allowed to say, I'm not okay right now. And trust me, I have been there. Whether it's the state of the world, stress at home, or just feeling like you've got to have it all together and have all the answers. You don't have to hold it in. BetterHelp is here to help with the world's largest network of licensed therapists.

They've already supported over 5 million people. You can connect with a therapist online from wherever you are. No wait list, no office visits. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch any time. It's time to put your mental health on the agenda. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash Mulruni today to get 10% off your first month.

That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash Mulruni. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show and welcome. It's Wednesday. So let's say hi to our this week in politics lineup. It is stacked, as always, with Regan Watts, founder of Fratton Park, as well as former senior aide to Jim Flaherty, and Tom Parkin, principal impact strategies and Canadian columnist and commentator, both of you. Hello, welcome, and happy Wednesday.

Hey, Ben. I don't know if you were listening to the previous segment, but we had a pretty significant conversation with a conservative MP who sort of blew the lid off of this story that there is a former ISIS convicted terrorist who is living out his sentence in a townhouse 100 kilometers north of Calgary with no fences. And I got to wonder, what the heck do you have to do in this country to actually serve a sentence that is commensurate with the crime that you committed?

Regan, why we start with you? Well, Ben, I have to admit, I don't know the particulars of the judicial proceedings and why he was sentenced. This person was sentenced to serve his time in a townhouse. But I do think by any reasonable standard and any listener or viewer right now who is hearing about the story for the fact, first time. They would be asking themselves what the heck is going on in our justice system that major public risks like this gentleman are allowed to live basically among the general public in cushy accommodations in, you know, just north of Calgary. It doesn't pass the smell test. As I say, I don't understand the legal parameters around it, but normal people will look

at this and go, what the hell is going on? Well, but Tom, we're living in a world where Paul Bernardo was moved to a medium security facility one of the worst monsters that this country has ever produced. And so if we're living in that world, maybe this does make sense. Well, what we don't know is exactly

what's being presumed here, which is that he's a threat. So this story goes back a long way. This is about a guy who's, he's now 36. When he was 23 or 24, he went to fight with ISIS with a member of his family. That's obviously, you know, and he was

investigated when he came back to Canada. He was charged. He was tried. He pled guilty. He pled guilty. And he said, because by the time this came to court, it was 2020. So that was seven years after he'd gone over and operated with this, you know, with the terrorist force. And at that time, he told the justice, I made a mistake. I wouldn't do that again. Now, I, I, I, I don't know the guy. None of us knows this guy, but I can tell you something for sure. The difference being being 36 and 25 is a lot. And being dragged into something by your family, as Omar Qatar was, is also a significant thing. Is the guy truly, you know, I made a, I made a very, very bad decision when I was young and I'm really getting my sentence and I'm okay with that. I don't

need walls around me. I accept it. We don't know. That's the problem. Yeah. And Tom, Tom, and Tom, listen, I get it. And I don't want people to have to serve in in manners that are unfair or inhumane. But certain things have to be true for everybody. We as a nation went to war against ISIS. And this person, and at 20, listen, if at 22, you can't tell your dad, you don't want to go to Syria and become a sniper for ISIS? I don't know what to tell you. Like, that's not a me problem, that's a you problem.

And certain things have to be true. Certain things have to be true. If you pick up arms against a nation, there are certain minimum requirements in terms of what your punishment should be, whether or not you're sorry or not. I don't think that's a cold position to hold. No.

He got 12 years. Right? You got 12 years sentence. But the issue, Ben, is about this. The level of security at the prison. I had a 12-year sentence, the guy is going to get out eventually, right? I don't know why he would want to get out. I mean, if it's a townhouse, the way it's being described, there's a lot of Canadians would like to live in something like a townhouse, Regan.

Well, look, then I think and torture them. And maybe that's the plan that you want, Ben. That's not a, like, I can't endorse that. Wait, wait, I miss what you said. What did you say? What plan did you say I wanted? I don't know if that's the plan you want then all I'm saying is we don't know this guy and what he truly believes today and and we just don't know those facts yeah yeah Riega go ahead Tom what we do know is this this man pled guilty and is convicted of yes fighting for ISIS it is unacceptable for any criminal who has been convicted of something like to live in a cushy comfortable townhouse north of

Cushy? Is it Cushy? Well, or you just make it that part of it? No, Tom, based on the conversation with the one person who actually went in, he said, the best way to describe it is it's a townhouse. There's no other way to describe it. I know it's a townhouse. It's built in an old army barracks north of Calgary in 1970. But, but, but okay.

The word Cuckey is right. Yeah. Yeah. We don't know these things. We're just making stuff up now, Ben. No, we're not. We're not, Tom. No. This is, this is the fact.

we are we are commenting based on what a member of parliament who by the way was elected took it upon himself to to visit so i accept the i know i know all politicians are always truth tellers oh and would never make up a story tom i think all i'm saying man i'm not i'm not sure that i agree i'm not sure that i disagree what i know is that i don't know what this all right you know what so listen so so so so we'll put a pin in that but what i think you're saying, Tom, and I think we can all agree on, is now that this story has come to light, it is incumbent upon the government to give us the details on this. If we get, if I get stonewalled on this, if the government is not forthcoming with the information that Tom, you said,

we don't have that we need, I think it is entirely reasonable and within my rights to speculate to the negative. If they don't give us the information, I get to speculate to the negative. Regan, I'll give you the last word, and then we're going to move on. No, Ben, I actually don't agree with you on that. I do agree with, sorry, on that point. You know, we do deserve to know what the processes were that ended up with anybody who's convicted of a serious crime ending up in a mini less than, frankly, a maximum security situation. That should be a public record and there's public process to do that.

So we have to be able to feel like justice is working, but we can't just make stuff up when we don't have the information. That just fuels, that's negative. Yep, no, I agree. However, if we ask for the information and they don't give it, I get to assume the worst. It's human nature. I get to assume. Regan, anything you want to add? I think being soft on terrorism is a bad look for anybody.

And I think the idea that we would question what an MP saw firsthand because we don't have information, I think is not acceptable and unfair. and if Tom believes that this gentleman should be in better conditions, he's welcome to have him at his lovely cottage where he speaks to him. I never said that. I'm just saying that just because Mr. Caputo says that, I don't know if it's true. Mr. Caputo says a lot of things about crime. Apparently there's a crime spurry in Kelowna,

even though, you know, I mean, this is the kind of stuff he does. I don't know. Wait, let's wait to see some facts. Wait to see some, yeah, well, hopefully the government will provide those facts. But I don't think, I mean, frankly, Tom, I don't need to see the crime statistics to see that, for example, on the streets of Toronto, stuff is not as good as it used to be. People do not feel as safe as they used to be. You know, good luck owning a jewelry store at Christmas time anywhere in this country because a gang is going to come out of nowhere and smash and grab and take everything. It's as certain today as the tides are.

You know, it's, it's, and that's a reality. I don't need statistics to tell me that that's a fact. But I will sit. Tom, if you need some betting for this gentleman to stay your place, I'd be happy to donate. Yeah, okay. You know, I just, I just think that we, maybe media should involve facts before we just throw to opinions about people getting strung up by their thumbs. I don't know that, I don't know that we're, I don't know that we're, I don't know

that we're doing anything irresponsible here, Tom. As a matter of fact, I know we're not. I know we're not. We've got somebody who has... Yeah, I, you know, somebody... Asking questions is good. Asking questions is good and it's incumbent upon... But I'm telling you, man, if in the next few days the government doesn't give the Canadian

public some answers, they are going to rightly be, suspect, ask themselves why that is. All right, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to ask, what is next for Pierre Polly? If I talked to him on this show yesterday, what does he have to do between now and January to secure his position as the leader following that leadership review. What does he have to do to be a responsible and effective leader of the opposition in the face of a popular new leader and new prime minister in Mark Carney? So that's coming up next.

Don't go anywhere. This is the Ben Mulroney show. In the 70s, four young women were found dead. For nearly 50 years, their cases went cold. I'm Nancy Hicks, a senior crime reporter. for global news. In the season finale of Crime Beat, I share how investigators

uncovered shocking evidence of a serial killer, and hear exclusive interviews with the killer's family. Listen to the full season of Crime Beat early and ad-free on Amazon music by asking Alexa to play

the podcast Crime Beat. Welcome back to the Ben Mulritty show. Welcome back to our midweek this week in politics panel. Welcome back to Regan Watson, Tom Park. And guys, Thanks so much for sticking around. Great good. My pleasure.

Okay, someone who hopes to stick around for a while, Pierre Poliav, he just won a massive victory in his by-election in Alberta, securing over 80% of the vote. That's despite having 213 other people on the ballot. I think that's got to be a record. So he did what he had to do yesterday. And now the question is, what can he, what must he do if he can do, based on this conversation? If there's anything he can do to remain a legitimate and effective. leader of the opposition and ultimately hopefully for him securing the position of prime minister

at some point. Regan, I know you've had some opinions. You've gone on the record. Why we start with you? Sure. So Ben, I remain a supporter of Mr. Polyeves and he's the leader of the conservative party. And I think just to I'll say it up front, I don't expect him to have any issues with his leadership review that takes place in January of 2026. He's got a firm grip on the party. And as by-election win means that he's going to be back on the House of Commons. And I think Mr. Polyev is more than likely going to be the Conservative Party leader in the next election. I say more than likely because anything can happen in politics, as we saw. Both Doug Ford and Prime Minister Carney have proven that you can run for leadership and six weeks later win high office.

And so anything's possible, but I suspect he'll be the leader in the next campaign. You know, Mr. Polyev has a challenge, though. And that is, and you talked about this in the lead in, the prime minister has proven to be, pretty good at the job and his credentials, his CV, will always be one of his greatest strength. And I think the strength, pardon me, and I think Canadians are looking at the current moment with President Trump and other things that are going on and saying, thank God we have a two-time central banker in corporate executive who's running the government of Canada. That's not to say Mr. Carney is not without challenge or challenges that will be before him.

But for Mr. Polyev, he's got to find a way to differentiate himself as a political leader from Mr. Carney than he did in the last election campaign. He needs to create a strategy and a narrative and a tone that will differentiate himself in the eyes of Canadians because it is not going to be sufficient to hang on to the conservative base in order to win the next election campaign. And the conservative party I know, the people I speak to think and are hoping that Mr. Carney is going to somehow mess up or screw up the implementation of his government's plans. And for me, hope is not a strategy. And you need to come up with a strategy. And you need to come up with a strategy beyond slogans and question period in order to present a viable plan for Canadians.

And I think Mr. Palliab, his challenge is going to be over the next several months. What is that strategy? And how can I continue to nuance my position and my presentation to Canadians so that people in the center in the 905, the 416, suburban parts of BC and certainly Atlanta will give me a second look? Tom, it is a very tricky needle for him to thread because because the stakes are so high because the previous government mucked up so many things and we find ourselves with so many intertwining crises, all of which require immediate attention that everybody, including

conservatives, have to on a very real level hope that this government is successful at what they want to achieve. And so for this leader of the opposition, he needs to find a way to oppose, but not cheer on or hope for failure, because failure today means cataclysmic results for Canadians. It's a really tough job. It is. I agree with so much of what Reagan just said and YouTube. And this is a very tough circumstance for him because just opposing Trudeau, like people were at the place where you could just say whatever you wanted about Justin Trudeau toward the end, and it'd be like, that's fine. Right? I buy it. That's not the way it is with Mr. Carney.

I suspect it won't be for quite some time. Maybe he'll get there where people just load them. You know, it happens. But certainly it's not right now. And I think the challenge, and this is what we're speaking to here, is how do you have a contrast with somebody that kind of fundamentally is doing very conservative things, the things that conservatives would like to do? So if he can find that spot of contrast where he can still be a conservative and find some. space between himself and Carney, then I guess that's the space to go to. But is that, is that a big enough space and is it space on the important issues that will change people's

minds? I've got to work. Issues are obviously economic development and jobs and things of this sort. Well, maybe let's, yeah, Regan, maybe let's bring it back, maybe let's bring it back to what we were just talking about. You know, the last election was, was fought over jobs in the economy. And the liberals were very good at playing keepaway on criminal justice. and criminal justice reform, they didn't want to touch that because they knew it was a losing argument for them. They knew themselves that they had failed and didn't want to prosecute the election on that file. Maybe that's the file. Maybe that's the one that he can, he can be

pushing forth. It's not the economy. It's not trade. It's not relationship with Donald Trump. It's these issues that are affecting our perception of safety. So, Ben, a couple things. One, I will correct you. The last election was fought on some of those things, but ultimately it came down to who Canadians felt was best place to take on President Trump in a trade war. And Mr. Carney's Immaculate CV won the day. And that's clear. And we know from the polling that the Conservative Party trailed on any number of public policy issues, including the economy, to the liberals. And so you touch on a point, and I think Tom opened up the door on this one. And I generally agree, which is he's got

to find areas that he can grab onto without being exploitative, without leaning in on the slogans and without gaslighting or trying to torch an issue, maybe that's immigration, maybe that's tough on crime. I would say that the government has done very little in the near term around affordability. And if I was Mr. Polyev, I would be looking and hammering on those affordability issues because it's still an issue for many Canadians. The challenge Mr. Polyev has is the government of Canada and Prime Minister Carney, who, by the way, still has me purring, is he has a budget coming up this fall.

And if Mr. Carney uses his budget like he did, for example, the defense announcement. Yeah. There's no concern in the country who's going to say, you shouldn't pay soldiers. Correct. If he used to... That was a great day. I loved that announcement.

I did. Right. And so it's going to be very hard for Mr. Pollard. So he's got to be patient. The instinct to attack on certain issues is going to have to be managed. And whether he can do that or not is it's kind of up to him. But, you know, I think the nuance and the jiu-jitsu he has to play here is very difficult. I mean, listen, Tom, we talk about, we talk about, and certainly our purring.

A guest here talks about the immaculate CV of our, of our, of our prime minister. That cannot be denied. But a resume is only so good. It's only good if it leads to better outcomes for Canadians. Otherwise, Mark Carney runs the risk of being an empty suit, you know, a great resume and nothing for Canadians to show for it. And so is, do we, does the conservative party sit there and pretty much just try to be try to just blend in support the the government when they can oppose them on these key files that that might have just been identified and and I know you said hope's not a strategy but there's the the accomplishments or the victories or the failures are only going to stick to this government right it's it's theirs to win or

there's to lose and if the opposition just sits there then relative to that government they they either become more or less attractive. Yeah, you know, Ben, to go back to your point about crime and punishment, crime and order. You know, I think that is somewhere that the conservatives can make hay. But it's just not, it's always going to be a second tier issue. It's like when people, when we got, you know, unemployment in Toronto of 9% and nationally 6.9%, 700,000 people out of work in Ontario, you know, that is the issue. Trump and tariffs and our economic security, our national security, these are the ace cards. And so, you know, crime and

punishment, yeah, important, very important, but not going to, not going to be sufficient. The affordability thing, which Regan mentioned, I think has a lot of potential. And I think it opens the doors left and right for the Democrats and the conservatives. The trick here is, I believe that it's possible, even though Mr. Carney is accomplished and he has this perfect CV, that there may be a perception that he's not really a common person and he's out of touch with what common people's needs are. And I think we kind of saw that in the air Canada strike and the way he kind of clutched that up. All right.

He just was not in touch. Yeah, we're going to have to leave it there, guys. So affordability. Yeah, probably. Could be the trick. Guys, this has been a great panel. I want to thank you so much. It's, you know, we're at the middle of the road.

We're at the top of the mountain on this hump day. So thank you so much for ending on a high note with me. Enjoy the rest of your week. Have a great good, Ben. Thanks, Ben. You know, the abominable snowman. Yeah, I'm real, and I don't. Talk like me, Yeti.

Just like you hairless Yetis, I love summer. Camping, hiking, everything. My Subaru, with standard symmetrical full-time all-wheel drive, is also great in winter, because summer's too short. Am I right? So head to your local Subaru dealer for lease rates from 1.99% for 24 months on select models. Like me, they're made to summer and built for winter. Conditions apply, see dealer for details.