The Ben Mulroney Show - The politics of crossing the floor to join another party

Episode Date: November 5, 2025

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This spectacular evening features internationally acclaimed singer-songwriter Benjamin William Hastings, known for his powerful worship songs heard around the world, including so will I and gratitude. Share the wonder of Christmas with friends and family at Roy Thompson Hall. Tickets are on sale now at Salvationist.ca slash Christmas. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney show on Hump Day, Wednesday, November 5th. It's the day after the budget. So today is all about reaction to it.

And let's hear the initial reaction. Let's jump right in, right? There's a lot to get to. So you don't need to know about my night or anything like that. Let's talk about this budget that will be definitional for this liberal government if, in fact, it passes. So here is the finance minister, Francois Philippe Champagne, giving his declaration about how this is a this is a positive thing for the country we'll invest two hundred eighty billion dollar over five years in capital to strengthen Canada's

productivity competitiveness and resilience on a cash basis this is an historic investment of four hundred fifty billion dollars mr. Speaker in Canada we're going to do all that because we believe in Canada we believe in Canadians we believe in our workers. We believe in our future, Mr. Speaker. Yeah, listen, you got to rah-rah. You got to rally around your budget. I'm getting really tired of politicians saying we're doing all of these things because we believe in Canada. The implication is everybody else who doesn't believe in your budget doesn't believe in Canada. It's offensive. It's offensive. I've heard it for so long. I'm so tired of politicians saying

we're doing this because we believe in Canada. And if you don't support this budget, you don't believe in Canada. How about we just don't support the budget? How about that? We don't believe that that's what's best for the country. It's offensive and it doesn't bring us together in any meaningful way.

Because according to that logic, if I have a problem with this budget, then I don't believe in Canada. And come on, come on. I dare anybody to tell me that to my face. Okay, so that's the position of the government. But they needed, at the beginning of yesterday, the liberals needed three votes from somewhere else, they are in a minority situation, to get this budget passed. The Conservatives and the bloc, no surprise, they said they're not supporting it.

And we'll delve into those reasons later, although they've made their reasons very clear. However, the other two parties have given themselves some wiggle room. Let's listen to the interim leader of the NDP, Don Davies, explain the position of his party. I can tell you that new Democrats are going to take the time to study this budget. We're going to consult with stakeholders. We're going to talk to Canadians, particularly working Canadians, and review this budget to see if this budget passes our lens of whether it works for working Canadians. Yeah, nothing wrong with that.

That's fair. They have seven seats. So they could be the difference maker here. And Elizabeth May of the Green Party, here's what she had to say. The vote will be very tight. When we crunch the numbers, it's two. close for comfort. And this is the time for a prime minister, and I really ask him personally to meet, to sit down and talk and find the changes that could be made to where we could

cast our one vote in favor of the budget. But that moment is not now. That's a problem as some people see it. In a minority situation, it's typically incumbent upon the government to seek common ground. It's upon them. It's incumbent on the government to go out and say, what can we do for you to make you support this budget? And instead, it feels like this government is daring the parties not to accept what they've put forth. They're saying, yeah, if you don't vote for it, it's going to be your fault if we go into an election. That's typically not how it works. And I don't think enough pressure has been put on the government to remind them. I don't think enough journalists are saying, hey, you're the

ones are supposed to put water in your wine, not the other way around. But look, like I said, as of yesterday morning, they only needed three votes. But by the end of the day, they only needed two. Now, what did they do? Did they find some rogue member of parliament and offer them something? Well, they got the got across the floor. They got a conservative to switch to the liberal party. The only conservative in Nova Scotia to win in the last election, Chris Dantremont, flipped. He is now a liberal. And a lot to say about this. But before I say anything, let's let you hear from Chris Dantremont, 40 days ago, 40 days ago. I want to speak in support of the conservative motion because Canadians are hurting. Families are being forced.

to cut deeply into their grocery budgets just to get by. And frankly, that makes me a little bit angry and a little bit sad. Since I was first elected here in 2019, the cost of living has skyrocketed. Even then, families in West Nova was called at the time, but in Akkadianapolis, were struggling. We weren't that liberals that are out of control spending and massive deficits were irresponsible. But, of course, they didn't listen. Okay, so that I did, ah. Where to begin?

I ask you, listening on the radio, on a streaming app, on podcast. I ask you, what was your opinion on anything 40 days ago that changed so much more than this guy? I've never in my life seen anything like it. My opinions change, but never that much. And especially not when the facts on the ground have. not changed at all. He just complained about deficits. Still there. Cost of living. Still there. Cost of food. Still there. Okay. So what changed? Well, according to Rick Perkins, former Nova Scotia MP, he ran in the election as part of the conservative ticket in Atlantic Canada. He lost. Chris Dantremont

won. Here's what he said just a few minutes ago on Twitter. If an elect, quote, if an election is held now, I will lose my seat. I might as well not run, end quote. Who said that? Chris Dantremont, to me, this past weekend, make no mistake. There is nothing in this floor crossing about principles. It was about keeping his job. Here's another quote.

This one is from a supporter. Chris Dantramon's decision to resign from the Conservative Caucus is the worst personal betrayal I have ever experienced in 30 plus years in politics. He has deprived Nova Scotians of that opposition voice and broke his personal word to me. I never imagined I would be in a position to not trust Chris Dantromo. And Chris Dantrault put out a statement where he said after serious consideration, thoughtful conversations. I've decided there's a better path forward for our country. Prime Minister Mark Carney is offering that path with a new budget that hits the priorities I have heard most in my riding.

Well, I mean, 40 days ago, you listed the priorities. that were important to you, that were angering you. And I don't see such a marked change that it would warrant this. And so he posted this and he put it on his, he put it on his social media. But then he blocked everybody from commenting because something tells me he knew the type of backlash he would get. And look, I got to say, I'm looking at the results of the last election in, Akkadianapolis where he won. He won with 47.7% of the vote

and the liberal Ronnie LeBlanc lost with 46.6%. So just over 1% of a difference. If I'm Ronnie LeBlanc today, what am I thinking? I ran as somebody who defended the values of the liberal party, who believed in the liberal party, who would have voted for this a budget.

I lost by 1%. The guy who ran against me stood against all of it, all of it. I don't even know what Chris Dantremant said about Ronnie LeBlanc in the last election. But given the tone and the tenor across the country, I can guess, and I'm sure it wasn't charitable. I know it wasn't charitable. So then that's 534 votes. That's a difference, right? So if I'm Ronnie LeBlanc today, what am I thinking?

Mr. LeBlanc, I would love to hear from you. If there's anybody listening who knows Ronnie LeBlanc or if Ronnie LeBlanc listens to this show, we urge you, reach out to us. I would very much like to know how you feel today the fact that you ran on this platform six months ago. And a guy who stood for everything that opposed it won and is now assuming the position that you ran for. There is, and look, let me say this before we go to break. Chris Don Tramon could have sat as an independent. He did not have to join the Liberal Caucus. He could have sat as an independent, cast his vote for this government.

And instead, he literally defied the wishes of the people of Acadianapolis to save his skin. That's according to Rick Perkins. All right. Up next, did the Conservatives see anything that they liked in the federal budget? Oh, we'll ask them. Welcome back to the show. so much for joining us. Top of mind for so many Canadians is this

new federal budget, the first in the Mark Carney era of the Liberal Party, and there are people touting it, and there are people criticizing it. One of the people here who says that their party will not be supporting it, Pierre Poliev, he says they cannot support it as conservatives, and so we're joined

now by Deputy Leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. Melissa Lansman, Mel, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having this morning. Okay, high level, why can't the conservative party get behind this budget? Look, I think first and foremost, do you look at this budget and you look at massive deficit numbers, massive debt numbers? We're talking about doubling the deficit from even the Trudeau years who spent more than

every prime minister combined. We see at the end of the fiscal track, at the end of the five-year budget cycle that this budget puts out, you're seeing $300 million in debt. you're seeing $55 billion, sorry, $300 billion in debt. And you're seeing $55 billion in just debt servicing fees. And just for context, that's more than is collected in the GST, and that's more than health care transfers every year to the provinces. So there is no way that a budget that drives up the cost of living on every Canadian,

on food, on homes, and on everything else you buy that conservatives can support this document. It seems with each era of the Liberal Party, there's always another reason to run deficits. If it's not the pandemic, it's something else. Now we're in a changing world, and there's wins that we have to catch. Apparently, we're sailing now. That imagery is, I'm going to have to ask Francoise-Philippe-Champagne about that. But there's always another reason to spend more money. And it seems like it's in the DNA of this party to believe.

that the solution to everything is more spending by government? Yeah, well, there's a couple things here, and you raise a good point. You know, it's marketed as some kind of general, but like some kind of generational budget that's going to sort of change the way that we do things. But it's become sort of largely conventional here in Ottawa to just throw money at the problem. And this budget particularly, I think it was a bit of a dud in terms. terms of its marketing, but it markets, it mistakes sort of actions for outcomes. It measures success by spending and not result. And I think, you know, the minister himself said if, you know,

no matter who you are as a Canadian, you can find something here in this budget. But largely for Canadians that are struggling to put food on the table that are struggling to put a roof over their head, young people who have been told to sacrifice even more, well, there's nothing in this budget for them. And everything is sort of Ottawa, central planning. It's going to happen in the future and just wait and see. Yeah. And listen, there's plenty of criticisms I could level at Jean-Cretzian, but when he had to attack the deficit,

one of the things that he did was he put in place cuts to taxes for small businesses, which then allowed them to reinvest. There's nothing in this budget for small business at all. no there's there's not much on the on the policy substance of of productivity look we're obviously um we're obviously looking at at at u.s tariffs and we've got to go beyond um just matching us competitive as we've got to um we've got to out compete the u.s and attract investment and while the words in the budget say that the tables the mass in the budget tell an entirely different stories. Since Mark Carney's been

Prime Minister, we actually have investment fleeing the country, and we'll have that until the end of the year. We might have that after, but the budget only talks about the end of the year. So, what's happening here is, you know, we see the job losses. We see the companies shutting

down. And that's sort of the reality of an uncompetitive, highly regulated Ottawa knows best type of environment that we still have even the day after this budget. Well, the day before the budget, they needed

three votes to pass it. Now, only two, because one of your colleagues, Chris Dantremont, from Nova Scotia, crossed the Florida to join the liberals. What happened? Well, look, I think Chris made a choice and that choice was 40 days ago, I heard him on the floor of the House of Commons

fighting inflation, fighting for lower prices on food, on homes, and he's decided really that he doesn't want to do that anymore and he's decided that the voters who sent him here three times as a conservative, you know, maybe sent the wrong guy or that he was saying the wrong thing. So I'm not sure what's in Chris's thinking. Yeah, I think this is a bit of a bit of sour grapes. But at the end of the day, he's going to have to face those people that sent him here as a conservative just, you know, six months ago, look them in the eyes and

say, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to fight on, I'm going to fight against the exact I'm going to fight for the thing I've been fighting against. Well, the rumor weeks ago was that three conservatives were being courted by the liberals and were going to cross the floor. That didn't come to pass, but one happened yesterday. Are you worried that there are more floor crossers in your midst? Well, here, I'm not going to traffic in rumors, because I don't know. But I will say that it's the government's responsibility as a minority to get support for

their agenda. And they haven't done any of that, you know, sort of fake meetings on the eve of the speech. with all of the opposition leaders, none of those demands from anyone were in the budget. So they're in the position where they have to pass a document where they didn't acquiesce to anything that, you know, the other Canadians who didn't vote for them are represented by and it's, the ball of really really is in their court. But is there anything in this budget that you do like? I mean, listen, the liberals have been, I think, fairly characterized as lifting certain elements

of the conservative platform over the court. course of the past few months. So there's got to be a few things in there that you at least hepidly like. I mean, the money for the armed forces, the large national projects, any of that stuff? Yeah, look, I mean, we've we've campaigned on this stuff. Some of it is lifted from our platform. I think it's some of it, some of it is a small step in the right direction, but really insufficient. At the end of the day, this is, you know, Ottawa consensus kind of lives on. It's more spending, more central planning, and less prosperity. That's the core

of this budget, and that's really why we can't support it. Okay, now, but explain procedurally to me, because Elizabeth May said she can't support it, but now is the moment for, you know, people to put water in their wine and horse trade, and is so that our listeners

know, the budget that was proposed yesterday, the document that we saw yesterday, not necessarily the one that will be voted on. That's right. So here's how it's how kind of works. You get this big book, you get a speech, and that's the outline of it. Then you have the piece of legislation

that the liberals are crafting. It's called the Budget Implementation Act. That comes, you know, later on, and we vote in in a couple weeks. And in the middle of that, we've got amendments to each party can put forward amendments. So parties will do their work. They'll meet with their caucuses, put the

amendments forward, and I think that's where you'll see potentially some changes, and that's where you see a government that might not want to go to an election, I might be rattling the cages with opposition, try to get their support in the interim. So the next couple weeks will be interesting to watch. Is there any chance that those changes, any level of change to the document,

could lead to support by the Conservatives? Or is the door shut? Well, I've been in this place for a long time. So unless they want to cut that deficit in half, lower, take the hidden taxes off food, and kill all of the regulations which they have embraced. you know, they've made the industrial carbon tax, for example, higher. Unless those changes are made, we cannot support this document. Lastly, I'm so glad in this generational document that's so important that's going to change

everything, that there was consideration given to the CBC to gain access to Eurovision, the world competition of music. I can tell you, if I, back in my TV days, if the government had helped us secure the rights to some big TV brand, I would have been very happy. I don't know if that's necessarily something that needs the attention. of the federal government, though. No, and I don't think 150 million more dollars to the CBC is necessarily the best use of taxpayers.

In fact, we're still very much on the train of scrap that and let the market decide, let people watch what they want. Speaking as somebody working tirelessly with a team of two of us, three of us, I can say, yeah, if it needs to get done by a small group of people, it can get done. Mel, thank you very much. I appreciate it. I know you're going to be busy today. Thanks so much, Ben. A point of consideration. There are some who are going to hear that interview and say,

why were you referring to Melissa Lansman as Mel? I've known Melissa Lansman for years. We've known each other since we both had different jobs. If Evan Solomon came on this show, I'd call him Evan, because I've known him for years as well. If you ever did come on this show. With a Subaru, a vehicle that's built to last come standard. Heated front seats, standard.

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