The Ben Mulroney Show - The Politics Panel - Trudeau spending spurred inflation

Episode Date: July 18, 2025

Guest: Chris Chapin, Political Commentator, Managing Principal of Upstream Strategy - Guest: Warren Kinsella, Former Special Advisor to Jean Chretien and CEO of the Daisy Group - If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: @benmulroneyshow Twitter: @benmulroneyshow TikTok: @benmulroneyshow Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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stop you know how fast you were going I'm gonna have to write you a ticket to my new movie the naked gun Liam Nees. Buy your tickets now and get a free chili dog. Chili dog not included. The Naked Gun, tickets on sale now, August 1. ["The Naked Gun Theme"] Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thank you so much for, listen, it's been a long week. And we like to end it in style with people

who are far smarter than I, with our This Week in Politics Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. Thank you so much for, listen, it's been a long week and we like to end it in style with people who are far smarter than I, with our This Week in Politics Friday edition. So please welcome to the show, Chris Chape in political commentator, managing principal upstream strategy, and Warren Kinsella, former special advisor to Jean Chrétien and the CEO of the Daisy Group.

Happy Friday, guys. Howdy. Happy Friday. Well, look, you know, it takes a long time to write the legacy of a prime minister, and that can change over time, and you can have recency bias, for example. And so who knows what the ultimately we are going to think

of the 10 years of Justin Trudeau as our prime minister. But this early news coming out is not good. This new report that says Ottawa and the spending like a drunken pirate under 10 years of Justin Trudeau was to blame for higher consumer prices, not the Bank of Canada decisions. And this is a brick in the wall, certainly not the only brick, but it's not a good indicator as to as we move forward. And and you see even liberals reversing course on so many decisions that were made by that government. I don't know what we're gonna say about Justin Trudeau and his and his liberals at 2030 years from now.

But as of right now, it's not like a good Warren, you know, you're in the you're in the big red tent. What do you think? it's not looked a good Warren, you know, you're in the you're in the big red tent. What do you think? Well, I think we have to be fair to him. I mean, so CD how so they they tilt conservative. And there's no question they're right. If you're talking about the 10 year period, where Justin Trudeau was prime minister, there's no question that I think that was one of the things that sank him in the end is he was, as you point out, spending like the cliched drunken sailor. However, they also go after him for the period, the pandemic. And that's where I think in fairness, I have to defend him. There was not a government in the world, including Donald Trump's,

that was not also spending like a drunken sailor during the pandemic, because we had millions of people around the world dying. Our healthcare system was crashing, and we had people who could not work. So in that period, that is properly a role for government. That was properly a time for government to be spending above the norm.

But their criticism about the other years in which Trudeau was prime minister, that's fair criticism. Chris, how do you see it? Because I take Warren's sort of measured assessment, but I go back to the level of spending and what we spent on during the pandemic. And I remember saying like, this is a lot of money. I'm seeing it. I'm seeing this government.

But I said, if the end result is that every bridge has been built, fixed, and all of our infrastructure is there and every social program has been properly paid for, then I won't necessarily have the problem I have right now. And none of that came to pass. So I don't know where the money went. then I won't necessarily have the problem I have right now. And none of that came to pass. So I don't know where the money went. I don't think anybody knows where the money went, Ben. I think that's, you know, the reality is, listen, Warren was absolutely spot on.

Like the spending the country did, provinces, every province ran deficits during COVID. It was just something at that time, I think, became societally acceptable. I think like I have flashbacks as soon as you brought this topic up Ben to like the 2015 election campaign. And I can just picture Stephen Harper on the debates

and in his press conference, it's like Justin Trudeau promised to ride teeny tiny deficits. Modest. Do you remember that? Modest deficits, yeah. Modest, teeny tiny and him just pinching his fingers because that's what Justin Trudeau promised. And the truth was, in the good times,

we ran huge deficits. And in the good times, I think Justin Trudeau's government was fiscally reckless. And so in the, in the tough times, yeah, they went even more overboard. And, and, you know, we're absolutely all paying the price for that now. Well, let's, let's shift our conversation to something that always has always made me uncomfortable because I've, I've told you guys before that I feel like I'm part of the majority of Canadians who feel like I was forced out of my very comfortable place being one of those people who is proud of how we've built this country

through immigration. Like it was a point of pride for me that, you know, we got it right for so many years and we brought in people deserving people who wanted to be here and who helped us build this country for me that, you know, we got it right for so many years. And we brought in people, deserving people who wanted to be here and who helped us build this country without whom Canada would not have become the fullest expression of what it was. And then I hear stories like this one that have forced me into position of being critical of our immigration system to the point that I think, you know, that of course, correction needs to be made. And when I read that in one case, a permanent resident was spared jail time

despite aggravating circumstances as it relates to a sex offense, he was spared jail time so that his ability to sponsor relatives to come to Canada would not be impacted. And in another, a foreign national in Canada on a student visa was given no jail time, yet his crimes as related to sort of sexual offenses might still be, might still result in his

removal from Canada, but he's still here. This to me is so excuse my language ass backwards. I don't know. I don't know what to do with this. Chris, you're chuckling. No, I because I think any normal person, Canadian, you know, whether you were born here, whether you immigrated to Canada feels the same way, Ben, like there was a there was an agreement, there was a social contract, if you will, in this country that you know, you play by the rules. And then you hear stories like this. And you're just left scratching your head. And it's just like you came you came here for a better life. And then you know, we see stories like this.

And I unfortunately, I feel the same way I always, you know, I grew up in a, you know, a bedroom suburb of Toronto, where, you know, immigration was, you know, the key to our, our local economy. And now you're sitting here scratching your head and be like this, something feels broken, and I don't know how we fix it. Warren, the question is to you, and you know the legal system as well as anyone, is the issue with judges? Is the issue with a law? Is the issue with how these crimes are investigated? Where is the pain point, the most glaring one, as you see it? It's all of those things you've just identified. And Michelle Rempel-Garner also has identified in social media. And like full disclosure, Ben,

as Ben knows, maybe Chris does know, Ben and I got in trouble about this a couple of years ago when we pointed out when people who were, you know, kind of pro-Hamas, anti-Israel, you know, committing criminal offenses, we took the position, both Ben and I, that they should be deported. you know, committing criminal offenses, we took the position, both Ben and I, that they should be deported. And lots of people got mad at us for that, but I still have that view

because it reflects the law. Like, if you are convicted of a serious crime, and you're not a citizen, your information gets sent to the Canadian Border Services Agency, and then they commence the process of revoking your resident status. And for example, even for less serious spells in jail, for summary offenses, so six months or less, you can lose your right to appeal and again, be deported. So, like this has been the law in Canada and I don't understand why in these two outrageous cases the judge misapplied, the judges misapplied the law. Like that is the rule. If you are here and you break the rules of this country, if you're here largely as a

guest, we are entitled to send you away, not to give you, you know, kind of a get out of jail free card, no pun intended, where your your actual status is used to your advantage. I know that that's the thing that's even that that thing, Warren is is is what is I think the most insulting thing to Canadians. Well, it's it's the most insulting thing to to people who, it's the most insulting thing to people who came here lawfully and to those of us who play by the rules. You're caught doing something wrong,

and that should be an automatic pathway to putting your presence here at risk, but it's being turned around and used in the opposite way, being said, oh, we can't put you in jail because that might mean you can't bring more of your family over. Chris, this is this is upside down. And, and to me, look, this is this is a new government that wants to show that it is it is a

different government. If it doesn't start addressing things like this quickly. I think the stink of, of sort of problems from the past might stick to them faster than they expect. Absolutely. And I think, you know, we've talked about this. I mean, Warren's been on, you know, the right side on this on a couple of different times when we've talked about, you know, judicial issues, but I think it, I think the core issue here is the trust the public has

in our courts. And I think that's unfortunately being eroded when you hear decisions like this. Like, you know, bail is a whole other issue in this country and, you know, Warren's brought up before, you know, maybe we don't have enough jails. And so there's pressures on judges to make gut calls. But I mean, this is, this is so far past a judgment call, like there are laws in place, you've broken the law, you know, time to go.

All right. Well, listen, you just brought up trust in institutions and there's a lot of trust being lost in Donald Trump by people who were willing to give it out for free all over Jeffrey Epstein. So we're going to be discussing that next. Don't go anywhere. This is the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show and welcome back to Chris Chapin and Warren Kinsella for our Friday edition of This Week in Politics. And if you had told me months ago that there would be a real schism today within the MAGA movement over Jeffrey Epstein, I would have asked for the playbook. Like, how did this happen? And we're watching it happen in real time. Warren, this started out with with Donald Trump beating the drum on he was going to drain the swamp and Epstein was was the

the prime example of the swamp. And and then he gets in power again, after promising to show everybody the dirty laundry. And now he's poo pooing it. He's poo pooing sex trafficking and child, child abuse. And at least that's how a lot of the people on the MAGA side are seeing it. And the more he talks, the more he tries to dismiss it, the worse it sounds for him.

Like, what's he supposed to do at this point? He's got a big problem. And at first I didn't think it was a big deal. The notion that Donald Trump behaved inappropriately wasn't exactly news. I mean, he's a civil jury found that he had sexually assaulted a woman. So that wasn't the news. I was trying to figure out why does this story keep kicking around? And I think the position I came around to is, you know, if you're a mega person, basically you believe that there's an invisible cabal of elites controlling events, right? You

know, you believe in conspiracy theories, and Epstein is one of those. And the problem I think that this story creates for Trump is not that he behaves inappropriately, it's that he has become one of these invisible members of the elite who's conspiring against regular people. That's where I think they're getting so mad is to find out that the Wizard of Oz is not exactly who they thought he was. So,

you know, I keep thinking the story is going to die and keep not dying. And anyway, we'll see what happened next week when Pam Bondi unseals or attempts to unseal these grand jury transcripts. Yeah. And Chris, if this gets unsealed, and they're in it's redacted to with an inch of its life. That's not going to help. No, it's not Ben. And I think, you know, I'd go one step further on Warren. Like, you know, it is why does this keep coming up? I think it's this is the one thing Donald Trump won't admit to. Like you think back to like the Megyn Kelly thing back in his first run in 2016. He owned up to everything. You know, he said, Yeah, I did it. So what? Piss off. That's kind of been Trump's MO to everything.

But with this Epstein issue, he denies it. And I think for the longest time, his supporters are like, well, no, it's fake news. They made it up. And then when the evidence keeps coming out, you're like, and we've all seen the photos of him with Jelaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein and his wife. And it's not like there's one photo.

It seems like there's 100 photos. But he denied it for so long. And now when there's actual it seems like tangible evidence. It's like, wait a minute, maybe you were not telling the truth. Yeah, I think that's what's really hurting him the most. And like he at some point, it's gonna be put up or shut up. I mean, you're the one who told us you were beating the drum forever. And now you're saying there's nothing there there.

And that's a bridge too far for sort of the well-spoken, intelligent, influential podcasters that have had his back. They're the ones who've been able to put into words elegantly or is sometimes comedically, which means palatably, things that he has sometimes either not been able to do or says one thing and does the other. They're the ones who sort of reverse engineer a justification for him, which then gets fed out to the public. So now you have the Megyn Kelly's the Matt Walsh's, the Ben Shapiro's of the world, as well as the comedian bros, right? The the

Andrew Schultz's of the world, who are all coming out and saying, No, this doesn't work for us. Sorry, man. Like this is important. And there's an ethical bar they have to clear it as well. They can't sit there and poo poo something that is this toxic and this nefarious as it relates to sort of this disgusting loathsome monster that doesn't deserve a pass even in death.

And so I don't think the only way out for Donald Trump as I see it, and I'll let either one of you put a bow on this, the only way out is through. I couldn't agree more. Like I think he needs to, you know, they're scrambling, you know, they're truly scrambling with this, you know, releasing these reports.

There's clearly something in there. And I mean, you think back, you know, it seems like it was with this, you know, releasing these reports, there's clearly something in there. And I mean, you think back, you know, it seems like it was like yesterday, but I guess it was a couple months ago that that Elon Musk took to Twitter and said, you know, the president's in the Epstein Epstein files, you know, he knew something, you know, Elon Musk isn't a dumb dumb, like he knew something. And if he didn't, he's just that he's just that smart was a

calculated risk warn. something. And if he didn't, he's just that he's just that smart was a calculated risk worn. Yeah. And it, you know, it is I mean, it's a sorted story. I've long felt that there's a bit of anti semitism in the mix here. I long felt that, you know, it would have been a very different kind of story. Have we not had famous people involved in it, it would have been a pedophile going to jail for his crimes. But it's like the Kennedy assassination. There's this cottage industry that develops with these conspiracy theories that feeds on itself.

I mean, QAnon, which supported Trump and Trump has made positive noises about, is similar, where they take little filaments and bits and pieces of a story and try and weave it into some tapestry, again, of these elites conspiring against regular people. And that is, as I say, is the danger here for Trump is the dog he set loose is now he's at risk of being bitten by his own dog. Like he, he fostered this conspiracy. He pushed it.

He tried to take political advantage of it, won the election, and now the irony of ironies, it's coming back to bite him. Lastly, explain to me what I don't understand about supply management. There's an article in the Sun newspapers that says, this cabal of just a few hundred dairy and poultry farmers seem to have, I don't know what they have

on every single party in Ottawa, but it's a sticking point for inter-provincial trade barriers. It makes life more expensive for most of us at the grocery store, if not all of us at the grocery store. And Donald Trump doesn't like it, and we're trying to build some new relationship with the United States.

Despite that, there was a private members bill by the Bloc Québécois that every single party got on board with saying that it will not be touched. What don't I know? Someone has to make make me understand why this is such a sacred cow. Chris, we'll start with you. I try, try becoming prime minister without Quebec. It's as simple as that. It's, you know, supply management props up, you know, and supports the dairy industry in Quebec, which is where it's predominantly based.

Nobody has the courage. I mean, it's almost politically impossible. Stephen Harper was successful in 2011, winning barely without Quebec seats, but it's an incredibly popular policy in the province of Quebec. If you want to become prime minister, if you want to govern this country, it's almost impossible to do so without the support of the, you know, the province of Quebec and, you know, until some time until we figure out a way to do it. Otherwise, supply management is here to stay.

Warren is as simple as that. I think no, I think Chris is right, but it's not just the Quebec factor. Supply management, I know conservatives, it drives them bananas. This goes back, I mean, Andrew Scheer won the leadership of the Conservative Party by supporting it, and Maxime Bernier got kicked out of cabinet by opposing it. So it is a hot political issue. But an argument can be made that it provides for stable prices and a reliable supply of food and protection for farmers.

Farmers, none of us are farmers. We probably should have a farmer on here talking about it. He or she would say it gives us protection. It ensures that there's not overproduction or shortages, right? And it ensures the prices stay within a certain level. But there's no question Donald Trump is coming after it. Yeah, even though the United States distorts the agricultural marketplace more than Canadians do by a factor of two. Like if you know,

particularly coddled farmers, that's in the United States. But anyway, it's an issue we're gonna have to deal with. Because Trump is clearly coming after us on it. Well, gentlemen, as always, I thank you for a great conversation. I hope you've had a great week, and I hope you've got a great weekend lined up. And we will talk to you soon.. The twenty twenty five Nissan road is motor trends number one compact SUV for the third year

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