The Ben Mulroney Show - The Rise and Fall of Canada’s Carbon Tax

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

Guests and Topics: -The Rise and Fall of Canada’s Carbon Tax with Guest: Franco Terrazzano, Federal Director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and Author of Axing The Tax: The Rise and Fall of Canada’s Carbon Tax If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Visit your Toronto area Ford store or Ford.ca today. Because of the threat that Donald Trump has posed over the past few months on tariffs, probably the most significant tariff that Canada is dealing with, or one of the most significant tariffs, is flying under the radar and it deserves some attention. So you'll remember that over the past few years, there have been a flurry of announcements by various levels of government announcing that Canada was positioning itself to be a key player in the electric vehicle market, building batteries and factories.

We did not want to miss out on the revolution that was coming. And simultaneous to that, China did what China often does is they surprise the world with coming out with a flurry of incredible electric vehicles at really affordable prices. I've seen some of the videos of these cars and they they compare very favorably to what is available in the Canadian market, except they are a lot cheaper. And not only are they a lot cheaper, they're also, because they're produced in China, they carry the risk with all the cameras and all the technology in them, they carry the risk of being able to spy on us, roaming spies for the Chinese Communist Party on the streets of Canada.

So for both those reasons, security reasons, as well as the danger that these cars could flood the Canadian market and ruin what we hoped would be a competitive advantage for our economy, we as a country slapped 100% tariffs on those cars. All right, so that's, and we can debate whether that's a good idea or not.

I know my producer, George, thinks it's a terrible idea because no one would buy them anyway because there's nowhere to get them fixed if you have a problem with them in Canada. But that's a debate for another day. 100% tariffs on EVs coming from China. What did China do in response? They threw 100% tariff on canola oil coming from China. What did China do in response? They threw a hundred percent tariff

on canola oil coming from Canada. And Scott Moe, the premier of Saskatchewan, was at a summit hosted by the Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce and said that this is probably the biggest, This is probably the biggest, most urgent tariff threat facing certainly his province and possibly the entire country. And we are gonna do our best to bring on people over the next few days so that we can dig into it and let you know why this should matter to you wherever you find yourself in this great country of ours.

I heard some audio from a Mark Carney rally that inflamed me. I became indignant, I became angry. I don't often hear the substance of what goes on at his rallies. I know what goes on at Pierre Poliev rallies because he's been consistent over the past 10 years saying pretty much the same things.

He's believed the same things for 10 years. So I'm not surprised when I hear things come out of Pierre Poliev's mouth. He's got a consistent vision and the policies he puts in the window are part and parcel of that vision. So when I heard this next piece of audio, my blood boiled. Don't forget, Donald Trump today is not the threat that Donald Trump was yesterday. He has now put a pause on most of the tariffs around the world. The tariffs that are on that were on Canada are still there.

Well done, Mark Carney. You've done a great job helping us weather this storm, but he's not the same threat as he was yesterday. And don't forget, Mark Carney needs Donald Trump to be a threat, because that's why he's got a certain type of voter that is lining up behind him. So even though Donald Trump has sort of quietly receded into the background, at least temporarily, here is what Mark Carney said about the United States and the threat they pose. The world economy is fundamentally changed.

The relationship, the relationship we had with the Americans, these guys weren't wrong. They want us to be the 50 first state. They want to break us. They want to break us so they can own us. They want. They want our resources. They want our water. They want our land. They want our country.

None of that is true. None of that is true. Yes, he trolled us with some tweets. But when was the last time he said anything about the 51st state? He's focused on other things. He does not want this country. He claims he doesn't need anything that we state? He's focused on other things. He does not want this country He he claims he doesn't need anything that we produce here. That's not true either

But nothing that he is saying is rooted in actual fact. It's rooted in feeling He is trying to scare people so that they fall in line I have never seen this level of fear-mongering in Canada in my life I've seen fear-mong before, never to this extent. And for the candidate that presents and is supposed to be about substance, I have, I don't know, I don't know what I'm listening to. But this is not right. This is not right. And look, despite promoting the No More Pipelines Bill C-16, Mark Carney praises Alberta as being at the heart of the solutions that will usher in a new energy era.

Let's listen to Mark Carney's vision to turn Canada into an energy superpower. It's time for Canada to lead. We've done it before. Builders made us a global leader in hydro, in nuclear power, in clean technology. Vision made us the fourth largest oil producer. I know that Alberta will be at the heart of these solutions. After all, I was born just north of Fort Mac and I grew up just south of it. When I was born, the oil sands was called the tar sands. It was just a dream. It was a concept. But the combination of the ingenuity of Alberta scientists, the drive of Alberta entrepreneurs,

the support of the provincial and federal governments created a powerful industry that has enriched all of Canada. And that same partnership can usher in a new energy era. We can grow our energy sector while cutting carbon pollution. We can lead the energy transition while ensuring affordable energy at home and building the strongest economy in the G7. We can give ourselves far more than any foreign government, including the United States, can ever take away. He's trying to be all things to all people.

He's trying to be the green champion as well as the champion of resource development. And not that those things are mutually exclusive, but he's saying two completely different things. Don't forget, this is the man who says he is not going to get rid of Bill C-69. It was designed to ensure that we cannot develop the natural resources that God gave this great country.

That's what C-69 is all about. So he's not going to get rid of it. And by the way, it's not just me saying, Danielle Smith, the Premier of Alberta said as much. That's the first thing that she needs to see. And the entire resource sector said they need to see that as well. Well, he's not going to touch that, meaning it's going to be practically impossible to do any of the things that he was just talking about. It's practically impossible. But did anyone hear a policy in there?

Did anyone hear a policy idea, an initiative? Here's how we're gonna do it. Still don't hear those things from him. I hear nice words every now and then, but those words don't amount to a plan. I'm not hearing any meat. He's not putting any meat on the bone. All right, so there's that. And you'll remember that Mark Carney promised

to build 500,000 new homes a year, which is an insane number, but that's what he promised. And someone said, well, how are you gonna do that? Homes take a long time. No, no, not if they are modular homes. And so if you've ever seen the picture and the image of what these modular homes look like, they are no home that I would wanna live in.

But Mark Carney explains why these modular homes are better for people. We're looking to double the rate of home building as as you would have seen, through new technologies in part, and Canadian innovation in modular housing, mass timber, etc. That's actually it's more it's better for people who buy the homes, their homes cost less, they're cheaper to run. It's also much, much lower emission as a consequence. So that's an example of us using a small amount of government money, clear objectives, clear specifications in order to catalyze the Canadian industry.

So you can build 500,000 modular homes a year? Oh good grief. Good grief. Oh, but at least the carbon footprint will be smaller. I mean, this is exhausting. All right. Well, it should be noted that Brookfield, the company chaired by Carney prior to becoming a liberal leader, is invested in that sector. That's not for nothing. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show and the long national ordeal of dealing with the carbon tax that was foisted upon us by the Liberal government that made everything in our lives more expensive is kind of sorta over. Mark Carney took it down to zero. He could probably bring it back up. But the drama of knowing that you're overpaying

for pretty much everything that requires gasoline or diesel to get to your door, including the gasoline or diesel that you put in your car is by and large over. So a lot of us feel like we know everything we need to know about the carbon tax. But there's a whole story about it like we we know everything we need to know about the carbon tax But there's a whole story about it that we don't know and there's a new book that came out today Called axing the tax the rise and fall of Canada's carbon tax written by Franco

Tarasano the federal director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and the author and he joins us now Franco welcome to the show and Congratulations on the book. Oh, hey, Ben, really appreciate that. Thanks so much for having me on today. OK, so listen, like I said, I I emotionally feel like I know everything I need to know about the carbon tax if I don't hear about it ever again, it'll be too soon. But why did you want to write this book? What was the story that needed to be told?

Well, you know, first of all, the story that had to be told, because look, some Canadians, including the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, has been fighting the carbon tax for about two decades now. Right? Remember British Columbia, they imposed the first North American economy, economy wide carbon tax all the way back in 2008. So we've been fighting this thing for a very long time. Now, one of the reasons that I wanted to write this book is because you can already smell the carbon tax activists, the environmental activists, some of the political elite classes already trying to spin the history of the carbon tax, right? They're trying to say, well, the carbon tax was a good idea. Trudeau just bungled the policy or he didn't communicate it well.

So I wanted to smash through that line of thinking and write a book that shows the history of the carbon tax, why it was always a bad idea and why it will always be a bad idea in the future. And Ben, you kind of hinted to this off the top, right? The fight against the carbon tax has been successful in the sense that politicians know that Canadians will not vote for them if they run on a carbon tax. But the fight is not over. As you mentioned, the carbon tax has been relabeled, repackaged, and especially Mr. Carney, he's trying to hide carbon taxes in the future. So, Franco, I've been beating this drum that, you know, when the liberals say, oh, the Tories

voted against housing and childcare. And I was like, no, they voted against your policies that did nothing to help with housing or childcare. And I wonder in your estimation, would you put the carbon tax in that bucket as well in that it was supposed to be a tool to reduce carbon emissions. But from my interpretation of the facts, it didn't do much on that front. Well, that's exactly why Canadians oppose it. Okay, for two simple reasons.

The carbon tax makes life more expensive and it doesn't work. Okay, let me take you all the way back to 2008. Those politicians in British Columbia were promising the world with carbon taxes. They even promised that the carbon tax would cut emissions by a third. And not only were they promising it, they legislated that reduction. That by 2020 and every year after, the carbon tax would cut emissions by 33%. Okay, well, using the government's own data, it shows that emissions have gone up, right? So look, there's two reasons why the carbon tax failed

on the environment and always will. Okay, so number one, you can't tax away the necessities of life, right? Canada, very big place, gotta drive to work, gotta drive to take your kids to soccer practice, and the carbon tax makes that more expensive. The carbon tax makes it more expensive for you to stay warm during the winter. It makes it more expensive for you to put food on your family's table. So instead of reducing emissions, all it's doing is reducing people's ability to save money

for other important things like putting your kids through college. But number two, Canada makes up 1.4% of global emissions. And Ben, here's something the government never wanted to talk about. About 70%, more than 70% of countries around the world do not have national carbon taxes. Four of the five largest emitters, United States, Brazil, India, Russia, don't have national carbon taxes. So look, punishing Canadians at home for the necessities of life, that's not going to reduce emissions in a place like China. Franco, in researching this book, I mean, listen, you're, as you're the federal director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, I have to assume you got a depth of knowledge in all the taxes everywhere in Canada.

Did you learn anything new in researching this book that you didn't know before? Yeah, and it was actually one of the fatal flaws of the carbon tax. So, Ben, you'll probably remember all the smart talking heads, right, saying politicians had to run on carbon taxes. Remember, in the last election, federally, you essentially had all major parties running on some form of carbon tax. But what I learned is that in fact the places that brought in carbon taxes were actually never upfront and transparent with the people. Okay, so before BC brought in a carbon tax, the BC Liberals at the time, they didn't run on a carbon tax. Before the Alberta NDP brought in a provincial carbon tax, they didn't run on a carbon tax before the Alberta NDP brought in a provincial carbon tax

They didn't run on a carbon tax same story with the wind government in Ontario No mention of the carbon tax before bringing in their own provincial system. Also a similar story federally Okay, so if you can go back to 2015, you probably remember legalized weed expanded immigration. The real pinnacle of the Trudeau platform in 2015 on taxes was actually a promise to cut taxes for the middle class. Remember that? I remember that. So Ben, you had to squint real hard to find 39 pages buried in Trudeau's platform, unrecognizably

vague mention of a carbon tax. So they were never honest with Canadians about the cost of the carbon tax. Then you'll remember the 2019 election where the former environment minister Catherine McKenna actually told Canadians the government had quote, no intention of continuing to raise the carbon tax beyond 2022. So all along the story of the fight against carbon taxes, you have the political class who wanted carbon taxes, never being upfront or getting consent from the people about what their actual plans were. And that was to increasingly make the necessities of life more expensive.

We are going to stand up for the middle class and those working hard to join it. That was the that's what they promised. Franco, was there was there any pushback within the government or within the bureaucracy that was that was entrusted with with with, you know, moving this tax forward and making sure that it was paid and it was it was working the way it was supposed to mean at any point did they look at the data and say, you know, it's not doing what we said it was going to do? Or was it a complete echo chamber? Oh, it was a complete echo chamber. And it was even worse than that, where you had government officials, essentially trying to sell Canadians a bag full of magical beans, right? Where you even had government officials parroting

the political line of somehow the carbon tax was making most Canadians richer. But you know, it doesn't matter how many taxpayer-funded government spinners you have, at the end of the day, reality wins out. Canadians never bought this line from the Trudeau or Liberal government that the carbon tax was making life more expensive because they could see at times the carbon tax bill being more than their natural gas bill every month. Canadians never bought that. carbon tax bill being more than their natural gas bill every month. You know what I mean? So Canadians never bought that.

But Ben, you might be asking, why was there such an echo chamber? And folks remember, not only did the carbon tax directly make your life more expensive, but the carbon tax also cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars to hire hundreds of bureaucrats to administer the carbon tax. So there was this perverse incentive within the bureaucracy who wanted to keep their taxpayer funded jobs to keep pushing the carbon tax on the people. And lastly, in about the last minute that we have, there's the consumer facing carbon tax and then there's the tax on the large emitters that Mark Carney says he's going

to go after. Talk to me about how that's, they're one and the same, aren't they? Well, a carbon tax is a carbon tax is a carbon tax. Only federal major leader who promises to get rid of all carbon taxes is Pierre-Paul Lievin, the conservatives. So Carney wants to hide carbon taxes on Canadian businesses. Then he hopes Canadians won't notice when they pass those costs on to you through higher prices. But Carney's carbon tax is even worse in a sense, because his carbon tax on business

will push Canadian businesses to cut production here to set up shop in the United States. So Carney's hidden tax really means higher prices and fewer Canadian jobs. Franco Tarrazzano is the author of Axing the Tax, the Rise and Fall of Canada's Carbon Tax. It is out today. You're a busy man and I appreciate you taking time to talk to us about the book and congratulations. Aw, thank you so much, Ben. Really appreciate the conversation.

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