The Ben Mulroney Show - The risks to your personal brand when you share your political views

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

Guests and Topics: -What are the risks to your personal brand when you share your political views? with Guest: Tony Chapman, Host of the award winning podcast Chatter that Matters, Founder of Chatter AI -Mark Carney wants to phase out oil and gas—just how much would that cost Canada? with Guest: Livio Di Matteo, Economist specializing in public policy, health economics and public finance, contributor to The Hub If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Visit PCFinancial.ca for details. I want to welcome to the show as we do every week, Tony Chapman, great friend of the show, host of the award-winning podcast, Chatter That Matters and founder of Chatter AI. Tony, welcome to the show. Always a pleasure to be with you. So there's no person I trust more to walk me through is the value of a brand and how to build a brand.

But talk to me about the danger of putting political opinions out there when you are a brand, when your business is your brand, and you experienced that firsthand in the past week and a half when you laid out who you were voting for. Well, there's no question to me. It was the biggest decision I had to make because I know I have clients that that

are very, uh, lean, very liberal and I have clients that lean very conservative. And you hope that they're going to separate my vote and what I believe in for Canada versus, uh, the business at hand, but it's the risk you take. And the second risk you take is you realize that by putting your position out, there's a lot of people lurking in the shadows of social media with their slingshots that are just happy to attack you personally. And that's something that I haven't experienced in the past, at least not at this level, but that comes with the territory.

When I put a lot of posts out about the math, I've only focused on math, deficit, debt, productivity, things that you can't argue. But when you can't argue them very often, they come back very emotional. And that's what I experienced. And that's, that's just the reality of doing what you believe is right. And I wouldn't take it back for a moment. I absolutely believe we need change in this country. And that's why I've, I've declared my support for the Conservative Party.

It boggles my mind that I can sit, I can sit opposite a liberal voter who will dress me down and insult me for voting conservative. And when I look at them and I say, but what about the last 10 years? They just poo poo that off. And then they will attack my values and who I am as a person because I'm voting conservative. It's, it's shocking. I've never seen anything like it before. Well, you got to give credit to the Liberal Party, the loyalty of their voters. I mean, they were abandoning the party. And then they just changed up the lead singer, even though he was part of the party. And some of the candidates did the same thing. They left and came back once they realized

that they could get reelected. And so, you know, I mean, that is testament to the liberal's ability to strike fear of the unknown and safety with what you do know, even though it hasn't necessarily worked to your advantage. And I think that's why you get such personal attacks from the liberals, because in some ways, they're, I think that if they really look in the mirror, they can be

unsettled with what's going on around them. And yet they're voting for what they hope will be a change in direction. So you know, they're, it's a fantastic political party should be studied for decades to come. The Carney wins, it'll be the greatest comeback in the history and be given the fact that they were talking about the liberals losing official party status. And Sylvester Stallone should be writing the next Rocky script around it. Well, listen, I want to be fair because I just leveled an attack on liberal voters, but they come from often when we are moments of great change, a photograph, a single photograph defines the mood. I think of Bernie Boston, 1967, when he in a big protest against the Vietnam War, he put flowers inside a soldier's gun barrel, and it became the cover

of Life magazine or the Tank Man in 1989 in the Tiananmen Square, who stood in front of the tank. Right. And I think in some ways, this is this photograph. We're in a very divided nation. There's so much anger. And this was his way of saying, I don't care what you have to say, this is how I'm gonna vote. And I think this is indicative of the time.

Social media has evaporated the middle ground. You're standing on one side, you're on the other side, and you wanna show that you are with your people and you're against those people. And I feel for him because he will go down in history as simply an individual that was expressing, I think, the fingers up versus elbows up that many voters feel today when they cast a vote.

Let's talk Tesla because Elon Musk's company has been getting battered. The stock has been tumbling, but it went back up when he said he was leaving Doge to go back to Tesla. I think he has to leave Tesla. I don't he is alienated by by all the work he did with Trump. He basically went against everything Tesla drivers believe in. Tesla drivers are from California. They're the ones that they believed in sort of anti-capitalism, electricity, they were the early adopters. He was their front, he was their lead singer, everything. He was going to solve space against the bureaucracy of NASA. He was going to bore tunnels where our government can't make subways. And all of a sudden,

he suddenly sided up with the government. I don't think he can come back to Tesla. He might be the brilliant engineer. He might find the next new most trapped and make Tesla great. But I think he's so identified with that brand and the Tesla drivers so no longer identify with him. If I was the board, I would ask, I would ask Elon Musk to step down. Well, the sports story of the weekend was former football legend Dion Sanders' son, Shadour Sanders, plummeting in the draft. He was projected to be a top 20 pick in the draft. He fell to the fifth round.

And the reason for that, at least the one that's being given publicly, is that people didn't like his attitude. Look, what I find really interesting is that, you know, people are comparing this to the Archie Manning, Eli Manning, moment where Archie said, my son's only gonna play in New York, and that's very similar to what happened here. But a lot of this has to do with, you know, his, his social media persona, persona, what he's been posting on social media and kids today need to know that. There's no question. And here's the other thing. There's so much talent out there that what people ultimately choose,

you might be the next Sidney Crosby and I'll put up with whatever attitude you have been. Cause I just want to, Tony stand by. I want to, I want to play a little bit of Shadour Sanders and the cockiness that he expressed at the NFL Combine. If you ain't trying to change the franchise or the culture, don't give me. So you should know history repeats itself

over and over and over. And I've done it over and over and over. So it should be no question why NFL franchise should pick me. You think I'm worried about what critics say or what people gotta say? You know who my dad is? They hated on him too. So it's like, it's almost normal.

Without people hating, it's not normal for us. I don't know, Tony. This is, look, everything that you do on the field is one thing, but the reason you go through the combine and through the draft is to show them who you are as a person. Yeah, here's the inconsistency of sports though. If he was the number one pick, you would just turn a blind eye and say, we can turn him around. But he's part of a pool of many. And if I have a choice of many, why would I take someone that you feel is going to be toxic to my culture and my team? Someone that's going to be in the face of the coach. You wouldn't. And that's

what's happened. So there's a message that you just gave earlier on, we don't want to lose. You're going to put yourself out in social media, you're going to talk about who you are, why you think you're the most important person in the universe. You're going to talk about how you part water. But today, especially with AI, when people are searching for someone to join their organization,

their team, their culture, their church, whatever, when somebody's saying, Hey, we're looking for someone to invite in, they're going to look through AI, your entire social media, and they're going to judge you for, is this somebody I want to be around every day for the rest of my life or every day as we try to win a sports championship? And that's, that's what's happened to him. He thinks he's above all of that.

And here's the reality. I wouldn't, I wouldn't draft someone like that because I'd say he's going to be, he's going to, it's, it's like Dennis Rodman with the Chicago Bulls, he was such a great rebounder that put up with him, but if it wasn't for his great rebounding skills, he never would have played on the Bulls. And that's the same thing that's happening here

is the fact is you're not that good to think that you are above the culture and the team. And that's the problem today is because of social media, we feel we have this veneer and this Velcro and this armor that we can throw slingshots anywhere and we're invincible. But this is a great proof when you go from the top 20 to the fifth round, hopefully that's a lesson in humility for him. And he can go back and say to his dad, Hey, I just lost several million

dollars in my contract. Tony Chapman. Thank you so much. Always a pleasure. Chat next week. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. And look, it's nice to know where our political leaders stand on any and all issues. I think Pierre Poliev has been very clear on the things that matter to him and what he stands for. And by and

large, you could say the same thing about Mark Carney, except when it comes to oil and gas. I have no idea what his position is whatsoever. He says he wants to turn Canada into an energy superpower. He says sometimes he says pipelines, other times he says not necessarily pipelines. In his book, he talks about leaving oil and gas in the ground. And he says, we're going to, we're going to take it out and we're going to sell it to international markets. So I don't know where he stands, but he has talked about phasing out oil and gas at some

point. And the question is, how much would that cost Canada? Here to answer that question is Livio Di Matteo, economist specializing in public policy, health economics, and public finance and a contributor to the hub. And he wrote about this very issue. Welcome to the show, sir. Morning, Ben. Glad to be here. All right. So, yeah, okay. Let's assume for a second that Mark Carney gets his wish becomes prime minister and decides that he is going to, I don't know, slowly or quickly phase out oil and gas.

What are we looking at in that transition? Well, that's a very good question. The oil and gas sector is part of the resource sector overall, and it's very important to Canada. I mean, resources overall, oil and gas, but also mining, forestry, everything is almost 20% of our GDP through direct, indirect and induced. Now, energy sector alone probably represents about 9% of GDP that would be oil, natural gas, etc. It's about 600, 650,000 jobs. So it's a substantial

chunk of the economy, but it's more important than you think. You have to think about resources almost like a tree in that the oil and gas sector, mining, all of those sectors are like the trunk of a tree supporting all these branches that go out the rest of the economy. So the direct impact may seem small, but indirectly between all the inputs into the industry, all the capital investment, I mean, natural resource companies traditionally have accounted for over half of our non residential business investment. sector, natural resources probably account for about two thirds of the products shipped on our rail and marine transport. Again, oil and gas is a substantial component of that. Canadians often have been uncomfortable about natural resources. They have this thing in their head that if you rely on natural resources, whether it's oil and gas or mining, that we're

just simply hewers of wood and drawers of water. But I mean, the resource sector today is very capital intensive. It's very high tech. 60% of the jobs require some type of post secondary education. It's a high value added sector. And it's the energy exports alone are probably responsible about half of our exports to the United States So it's very important. What I don't understand also is you could make an argument for the left supporting responsible resource development because it would it would add so much to our to our tax revenue, which could then pay for all the social services that they say are vital and essential to moving Canada towards the fairest version of itself. That's a good point. I mean, the resource revenues from various types of royalties, whether they're for oil, gas or mining, average about 15 billion a year, but some years they're upwards of 30 billion. Yeah. So that is a fair amount of resource revenue.

I think in a sense whether you're on the left or the right or the middle, I mean sort of responsible stewardship of your natural resources is a legitimate goal. I think the most important thing you can do, I mean I think the resources should be developed, but you also have to plan for the future. I mean, I would personally like to see more of the Norwegian model in which a larger chunk of those resource revenues are put into some type

of sovereign wealth fund. Oh yeah, I remember people talking about that, what 15, 20 years ago and why we hadn't done it and had Alberta been able to do it or Canada been able to do it, the amount of capital available to us at this point would just be next level. Oh, absolutely right. And that I think is one of the greatest policy failures of resource development in Canada,

that we have not done more to create these types of sovereign wealth funds from the various royalties that have come in historically from all of our resource sector industries. Oh my goodness. Well, I want to, knowing what you know about what Mark Carney has said, what his platform is, how do you think he's going to approach, if he becomes prime minister, how do you think he's going to approach if he becomes prime minister? How do you think he is going to approach resource development? Well, I think he's going to have to approach resource development. I think that's our comparative advantage.

Without natural resources, I mean, think about it. Natural resources contribute altogether almost 20% of our GDP. So if the natural resource sector wasn't there, it's like a 20% national pay cut. Yeah, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but that ideology has left the party, but we'll have to see. But for 10 years, they made it practically impossible to do that one thing that we know is so vital to the Canadian economy. Yeah, I agree. But I think whether whoever forms the government, I think they're going to have to develop our resources. I don't think Canada can move forward in the current geopolitical environment,

keeping its resources in the ground. We should develop them responsibly. We should do things in terms of environmental stewardship, but in the end, those resources are a source of value added. They're a source of investment potential for the Canadian economy. And it's just a question of how they're going to be developed and how it's going to be approached. And I think either major party will

eventually end up doing that one way or another. There's also a diplomatic lever to the development of those resources as well, because, you know, we get to choose who we sell them to. And it adds to sort of the heft that Canada at least used to have as what was called a middle power. We were always told we punched above our weight, but one of the reasons we did that is we had a military, we had strong relations with the Americans. And so we were able to leverage those things in order to be taken more seriously than a country of our size. And we could do the same thing today

if we had a massively developed resource sector. Well, if we want to participate in international affairs, for example, much is being said about developing stronger economic ties with Europe. Well, one of the things that Europe needs is natural gas. It needs energy. And basically, you can't basically foster closer ties with Europe and then not sell the more gasoline gas and natural gas. So that is one way of enhancing our importance to other countries in terms of the products we offer them, especially if we're going to under invest in other things like the military.

What what do you think it let's assume again that the liberals form government. What do you think a Mark Carney term looks like? Because I've read parts of his book values and I've heard him talk about net zero. We've heard about the EV mandate. I'm just I'm there. He's so all over the place. I don't know. I don't know what resource development is going to look like under him. I think when push comes to shove, he's going to be more business oriented than we might have expected given his

background. I mean, it's all good and fine to be aspirational in terms of your goals, as you know, the government has been federally for the last decade. But he does have a background in business and world affairs. And the only way you're going to achieve the aspirational goals if you have the ability to pay for them. And that's going to require resource development. I don't think he's going to have much of a choice. Yeah, I mean, if he wants to pay for all these things that the liberals have been building of a choice. Yeah, I mean, if he wants to pay for all these things that the Liberals have been building out for years, yeah, this is the way to do it.

This is absolutely the way to do it. For me, it's, and doing so in a responsible and environmentally sustainable way, is, it would be the most Canadian thing we could do. It certainly could be. Livio DiMatteo, thank you so much. The article is called, Mark Carney Wants to Phase Out Oil and Gas. Just how much would that cost Canada? And you can read it on thehub.ca.

Sir, thank you very much. My pleasure, Ben. Have a great day. Want to kick your cooking up a notch? This is the moment you've been waiting for. Flavor Network is giving one lucky viewer $15,000 to put towards the grocery bill. Oh, I love that. Tune into Flavor Network every night at 9 Eastern or stream live on STAC TV.

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