The Ben Mulroney Show - The Socialist Roll Call/A Venezuelan Tale/ BC un-governable?

Episode Date: January 6, 2026

GUEST:   Luis Florez — leader of the communications for Vente Venezuela in Canada (Vente is the party of Nobel Peace Prize winner Maria Corina Machado) GUEST:  Werner Stump – BC Cattleman’s association If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by the National Payroll Institute, the leader for the payroll profession in Canada, setting the standard of professional excellence, delivering critical expertise, and providing resources that over 45,000 payroll professionals rely on. Is this really the best use of my time? Can my clients quick tax questions ever be quick? Is this really the best use of my time? Well, busy season always end in Barnhouse. Is this really the best use of my time? Do I have to turn down partner to spend enough time with my kids? with blue jay you'll have more time to do what's important to you by completing hours of tax research in seconds get better answers to tough questions blue jay AI for tax experts no cancellations all across the nation let's go welcome to the Ben Mulroney show thank you so much for that music Mike Droulet my intrepid producer Mike Droulet always at the helm I made literally my right hand man

and quite awesome quite awesomely with the the pipes of just a fresh The dulcet tones of Mike Droulet welcome to the Ben Mulroney show if you're new to the show we thank you We welcome you, and we hope you find a home here with us as we build this show. And so we have conversations all across the nation, as Mike just put into song, with no cancellations. This is a safe space where we have uncomfortable conversation, respectfully, with no fear of cancellation. But that doesn't mean we're not going to talk about some wacky, wacky stuff. I've said many times that I think one of the reasons that socialists and the leftists are so successful municipally is because a lot of them have given up ambitions of

higher office. They're not trying to win provincially or at the governor's level, the state level in the states or the presidency. They're trying to win cities and they're doing very well. You've got Seattle and Portland and, well, it used to be San Francisco. You've got Vancouver and you've got much, well, it used to be Montreal and you certainly have Toronto. And so what we wanted to do was give you the socialist roll call as a warning to Canada, even though Canada's in the middle of it in certain places. As we know, New York City has a newly inaugurated socialist mayor in Zoran Mamdani. He did win that election fair and square, but it doesn't mean it's not going to be kooky. He's got an agenda that makes

you shake your head. He wants to freeze rent on roughly one million regulated apartments. And as a reminder, here's what he said during his inauguration. We will replace the frigidity of rugged individualism with the warmth of collectivism. My God. I mean, that's the frigidity of rugged individualism. Dude, rugged individualism is one of the pillars that built the United States. And you chose to move to the United States because, in part, rugged individualism helped build that country there's nothing there's nothing frigid about it

and the warm embrace or whatever of collectivism it's something about socialist man they will look at every failure of socialism in the past and the next generation will always say ah it's because it wasn't done right wasn't done right i have the secret i'm the guy to do it right and zoron is going to take his kick at the can and uh and and new york will suffer I don't have to say mark my words. It's nothing novel. It's not a hot take that he's going to get it wrong. Here's his next move.

He's got very controversial past statements for a number of people. So C.O. Weaver is his newly appointed director of the city's office to protect tenants. Here's what she said in the past. She called on social media to, quote, seize private property. She labeled home ownership. Oh, are we there already? No, no, no. Oh, look at you. Look at you.

Stick in your nose where it doesn't belong. Stick to the singing, buddy. Stick to the singing. What else did she say? Oh, home ownership? You know how like you think home ownership is a goal so that you can raise your family, build equity, and have something to rely on.

If you fall on bad times, you could sell the home. You could pull equity out of the house. No, no, no. So apparently, according to the office to protect tenants, the newly appointed director, C. O'Eaver, it's a weapon of white supremacy. And she urged voters to elect more communists. Right. That's what we all, that's top of my list, how to solve problems, more communists. Harsely criticized police and now deleted social media posts.

And that's another thing. They say this insane stuff on social media. They delete it. And then they try to pretend like, no, they pretend. they behave like they've lurt from it, but they will never admonish what they previously said. Let's listen to Sia Weaver in her own words. I think the reality is that for centuries we've really treated property as an individualized good and not a collective good. And we are going to transition into treating it as a collective good and towards a model of shared equity will

require that we think about it differently, and it will mean that families, especially white families, but some POC families who are homeowners as well, are going to have a different relationship to property than the one that we currently have. I mean, they're taking big swings here. I think they're taking big idiotic swings, because unlike Canada, property ownership is entrenched in the Constitution. And something tells me that if you start coming in one way, shape or form for somebody's property, they're constitutionalists. They're going to have something to say about that. That's my two cents. I'm not an expert in American constitutional law, but I do know that they've got a right to property that we do not have here. All right,

so we want to go through the text portion where I'm going to read you some of these incredibly thoughtful, well thought out ideas by the municipal socialist league, as I'm calling it. But before we do, I think we need some theme music. So why don't you play, I think, with the most appropriate music. For those of you don't know, this is the anthem of the USSR. C.O. Weaver private property,

including and kind of especially homeownership, is a weapon of white supremacy masquerading his wealth building, public policy. She goes on in another quote, The KKK are a violent Christian group to keep us all safe on this busy travel Delta should kick all white people in Christmas outfits

off planes. Oh yeah, that'll definitely keep us safe. We really needed to repress the desire of revenge. I wish I believed in God. So I could believe that all men who take credit for women's work and all white men who take credit for the work of women of color would one day

burn. It's a little witty. Let's go on to Matthew Schmidt. Oh, he wrote to tweet. In 2016, Mamdani's director of appointments wrote, It's important that white people feel defeated. Oh, that's sweet.

In 2018, his housing advisor wrote, impoverished the white middle class. Mamdani's own platform called for raising taxes on richer and whiter neighborhoods. I mean, at some point, we have to call these people what they are. They are racists. They're racist. And I'm not one of these guys, oh, racist again, white, white.

No, no, they're just racist. They're racist. They don't like, like. a certain type of person. They want class warfare. They want you to hate your neighbor. They want you to hate somebody who has, they want you to covet what somebody has,

what someone else has, and they want to blame that person for your station in life. That's all they want. They don't want to solve your problems. They want to give you someone to blame for your problems. And ask yourself, when you hear certain politicians in your city talking,

ask yourself, are they solving my problems or are they telling me who to blame for my problems? because oftentimes, if somebody's telling you who to blame, they are not offering any solutions. They are offering a quick emotional fix. And look, certain cities have woken up from this. San Francisco, which has been lost to a generation, has elected a new mayor, Daniel Lurie. And he said, he has said, we're turning the page. We lost our way as a city.

We all know that. We had, you know, career politicians that were focused on what was next for them instead of what was best for San Franciscans. And what I've tried to do is focus on getting results for the people of San Francisco. And what specifically was it? Was it a approach of not enforcing the laws? I think we got away from the basics of government. Now, today, if you come to San Francisco to commit a crime, we're going to catch you. And we're going to prosecute you.

If you come to San Francisco to deal drugs or to do drugs, we're going to prosecute you. And we're not going to tolerate it for as long as I'm mayor. And I think we sort of had a laissez-faire attitude. We said, okay, it's somebody's right to do drugs. Our progressive values sort of overtook common sense. Our progressive values overtook common sense. Amen. Amen.

And, you know, there are a lot of us in different cities listening. here, we hear echoes of our leaders in what he was just saying there. Later this hour, our Werner Stump, Werner Stump, he's a BC Cattleman's Association. He's got a warning about land ownership in BC. But next, the actual winner of the last Venezuelan election is still in Heidi. Will she ever govern that country? We're going to speak with one of her confidants next, right here on the Ben Mulerney show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show.

Thank you so much for being here. A lot of us heard the name Maria Corina Machado for the very first time when she won the Nobel Peace Prize. A lot of us would be forgiven that when we heard that, we had to be reminded that she was the real winner of the last Venezuelan election. that was stolen by Nicholas Maduro. And one of the reasons, one of the many reasons, that has been listed as to why he was absconded from in Venezuela and brought to face justice in New York City. And the question was, who was going to replace him at the head of the government?

And some people are little perplexed that he's been replaced by his number two. someone who is complicit in all of the crimes that he's been accused of. And a lot are wondering, will Maria Corina Machado have a chance to govern the country that she so bravely fought to govern in the first place? Well, we thought we would introduce you to Luis Flores. He's the leader of communications for Venta Venezuela in Canada. Vente is the party of the winner, Maria Corina Machado. And we welcome Luis to the show.

Thank you so much for being here. Hi, everybody. Thank you for having me in the show. So I would love to ask you, because you live here in Canada. So tell me what your relationship is to the party and to Maria Corrina Machado. Yeah, well, actually, I support the communications team. I'm an activist of the party in Canada. And I'm also part of their forces and communication arm within social media.

Tell me, a lot of us know who's should. is from the highlights. What does she stand for? What kind of person is she? And I got to say to have gone into a country like Venezuela that it was at the time governed with an iron fist by Nicholas Maduro who we know has no problem jailing his enemies, torturing his enemies and possibly killing his enemies to present as an opponent to him in an election. I mean, that requires a level of bravery that I don't know all of us have. So tell us who she is. She's absolutely a brave woman. She, actually, she, against all odds and against everything against her,

she was able to make this happen, like what she did, as you know, because she has been forbidden to run for office in Venezuela unlawfully and unconstitutionally due to political persecution. She was able to find somebody who will run for the party to do two things. First, to win the election or to prove that the Venezuelan regime was rigging the elections.

So masterfully, she was able to, because in Venezuela, the way you vote, you vote electronically in a machine. You vote in a little machine, you enter your vote, and this information from these machines are centralized in a server in the capital city of the country

where they, you know, totalize all the vote. and whatever. So she was able to gather an army of volunteers, because every time that you have an election, you have volunteers and witnesses from every party in the polling station. So she was able to gather an army of volunteers at every polling station, counting the votes, and getting the tally sheets from the machines. And she was able to get them to digitalize the copy of the machine against the forces of Maduro because they were not letting them do it. Wait, so you're saying that not only did she run a campaign that could have gotten her killed,

like she knew she had a target on her back. But not only did she do that, but you're saying that while doing that, she found a way to collect evidence that proved the corruption of the election? Correct. So she was able to gather all the tally sheets from every polling station, get a digital copy of them, put them in a cloud on a cloud for everybody to see them, And then she has the evidence. And when she was able to gather, because there was a lot of resistance from the forces,

because there's obviously armed forces in every polling station. There were armed forces. So she was able to gather all the tally sheets to ensure that she had enough to be able to prove that they were rigging the election. So I've got to ask, I've got to ask you, Louise. It feels to me that one of the reasons that the Americans, I think, went in to Venezuela. and grabbed Maduro is probably in part due to this evidence collected by Machado. Would you agree? Absolutely.

This was evidence of, you know, we already knew that he was a despot. We already knew that he was doing all these terrible things to the people and he was destroying the economy. But the affront to democracy is yet another aspect to it. And it delegitimized him in any way to be the rightful leader. And that's only do it, according to you. to Maria Karina Machado. Correct.

Correct. So we've got lots of time. We're going to talk to you after the break as well. After the break, I really want to talk to you about what life is like in Venezuela. But before we take that break, I do want to ask you what your thoughts were over the weekend when you heard about this daring incursion that swept up Maduro and his wife. Yeah. Well, my first reaction was surprise and excitement.

I mean, it's something that we knew that, you know, it was possible. Trump and all the – and you see the deployment of their forces in the Caribbean. So we knew this may happen. And, you know, I have to tell you, I mean, they say they're going to do something and they do it. I was not expecting it to happen so soon or quickly. I mean, we have been told that it was an option for eight months, but, you know, you need to see it to believe it. So it was a mix of shock and a little bit of excitement. in Venezuela, because we have been deceived so many times, I took it with a grain of salt.

So I'm thinking, okay, you need to wait and see what happens because we know how these guys operate, right? Yeah. So obviously at the beginning, the shocking, I didn't sleep at all that night, you know, waiting for the latest developments and, you know, patience and managing emotions to ensure that we understand what's going on before we get too excited about it, right? Well, and, you know, not getting too excited was probably the right move because I'm sure a lot of you were hoping for the installation of Maria Corina Machado as the rightful leader of that country, but that hasn't yet happened. Instead, his, Maduro's number two has taken over.

In my mind, I've created a theory as to why that happened. And I'll lay it out for you. You can tell me what you think, which is that the country is so corrupt and the country is so grotesquely broken. that it requires one of the people who help break it to explain to the Americans who will be watching like a hawk how they can fix it. And what I suspect has happened

is they told her, listen, you are going to, we want you to pay very close attention to what we're doing to Maduro in New York. And if you do not help us to the best of your ability, if you do not work with us to work towards free and fair elections, what's happening to him

will be a vacation compared to what we do to you. And so I think they're going to have, I think she's going to willingly comply and help move the country to a place where either Machado is installed or there is, in fact, a free and fair election where she, I'm sure stands a real chance of winning. What do you think of that theory? I think you probably are in the right direction. I'm thinking that there's also elements of, you know, if you bring Machado and actually the president should be at Mundo Gonzalez. If we follow the law, in Mundo should be the president, and then if he's not able, like, I think that at the beginning, the strategy

was to think, okay, because she's not able to run, we'll get somebody else, or that person wins the presidency, and then after that, we call, we fix the structural problems, and we call for a fair election. That's the way that we wanted this to happen. Yeah. I think that in his mind, he's thinking, if I bring them right now, because if everything's so unstable, and that's the reality, and we're not talking about only Maduro. When we think about the regime, the regime in my mind is like a hydra of many heads. So Maduro is one of the heads, and he's not a mastermind.

There are other masterminds over there that you need to tackle and you need to neutralize before things are stable. So I think that... Luis, can you hold that point? Because we got lots to talk about after the break. Next on the Ben Mulroney show, we go deeper into the future of Venezuela with Luis Flores. Don't go anywhere.

Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show, and I want to welcome back to our show, Luis Flores. Luis Flores is a confidant of the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize, who won the last election, hands down, but not only did that. She proved, while doing that while putting herself in danger, she collected the evidence to demonstrate that the election was stolen, which I believe is some of the evidence that led to the decision by this Trump administration to go in there and scoop up Maduro and have him held to account. So please welcome back to the show, Luis Flores. Thank you so much. So, Luis, I want to, I want to spend a moment with you on your how you ended up in Canada what what life was like for you in Venezuela why you decide

to leave how hard it was for you to decide to leave all of that stuff so take me back to life in Venezuela while you were living there yeah so life in Venezuela when I was living there you uh there was lots of crime uh obviously uh it was not a safe place who who was in charge at that point it was this after the revolution it was when Chavez won So I was won the election in 1999. And when he won, we knew what he was all about. And we knew he was going to destroy the country. So I started working on my plan.

So I moved out of the country. I got a master's degree in the US. And then I came back and I saw things were deteriorating even more and more. And then I decided to immigrate to Canada. Back then, there was an immigration program for skilled workers, very, very complex and very demanding. And I was selected to come to Canada, and I really, it has been my home for 17 years. But I could see the deterioration that Chavez was driving to the country.

With all the nationalization of the private sector, he was taking over companies and bring them into bankruptcy because he was not able to run. And when you have military people running companies, that's what they do, that they destroy them. This is a communist way, right? Yep. So the company I was working for back then actually had global operations in Caracas, and they shut down their operations and moved to another country.

So I was going to lose my job. So fortunately, I was able to find a job with them in Canada. And Canada has been my home country since then, and I love this country a lot. Well, listen, we are pleased that you chose to make Canada your home. It sounds like you are, from the work that you've been doing, it seems like we are lucky to have you. But you identified a problem so many years ago. It has gotten so much worse since then, has it?

It has been. Venezuela was one of the happiest countries in the world. Top rank, ranking in happiness back then, in the late 90s, early 2000s. And recently, if you or them, I invite everybody. listening to your show to Google this. Venezuela right now is in the bottom.

In terms of happiness because people over there are living with fear. Everybody talked to and my family and my friends over there are living with fear because you don't know if you're going to be detained. You're going to go to jail only for expressing your opinion against the government. And talk to me about the cost of living and how hard life is. I mean, we hear stories of people going hungry, people starving, eating out of dumpsters. I don't know if any of that's true. It is completely true.

So we face, so Venezuela faces severe and prolonged economic crisis and is driven by many factors, hyperinflation, the collapse of the local currency. The production of Venezuela is highly dependent on oil. And they have destroyed, obviously, the oil industry because they do nothing about it. They know how to operate it. So they have destroyed it. And then after all these years of political instability, the local currency in Venezuela is called Bolivar, and it has lost most of this value pushing inflation, you know, skyrocketing.

So it's being, being crazy. They have dollarized the country. So right now is the U.S. dollar. But because of the low productivity, there's no money. The minimum wage in Venezuela is roughly one to you to two U.S. dollars a month. That's the minimum wage. Okay. So, but there's no way that that is enough for somebody to live.

So how do you make ends meet? no well a lot of people depend on people overseas like me we send money to them we wire them money for them to survive and but are you worried that by the time you send it it's going to lose its value well by the time i send it because i send you a dollar it's not going to lose the value but the government will take a piece of it oh god the government yeah so so it's problematic but that's you know what but that that's the secret of every dictatorship right they they take the money and they and they pump it into the military because you cannot control you cannot control the people unless you control the military,

and you can't control the military unless you keep them fed and warm and happy. Yes, absolutely. And they don't only use the money that we send to our friends or family over there, but they also have, everybody knows this is well-known criminal and illegal activities on the site. So it's, yes. So obviously, one of the richest countries in the world is right now depending on people from overseas or relatives to send them money. So in our last few minutes, I'd love to ask you because you are clearly somebody who still loves his country.

And you said, Canada is your home. But if this place is given a chance and it deserves a chance and the people deserve a chance and all the exodus, the millions, the nine million Venezuelans who have been forced, forced to leave, they didn't choose it, they had to leave, would you return to your homeland to help resurrect it, to help see it rise from the ashes? This is a really tough question, Ben. I've been debating back and forth. I love Canada. Canada is in my heart. I would need to, because I talk to my wife, and we have kids. My kids were born in Canada, and it will need to be, we need to have a lot of insurance

or guarantee that things are stable for us to engage on that one. I will continue fighting for them and to get the freedom because we deserve, I'm not able to go to my country. Nobody overseas is able to go there because we fear of being kidnapped or other problems. So kidnapped by the forces of the government, right? Luis, sorry, I don't mean to interrupt, but I only have a little time left. What do your kids know of Venezuela? What have you told them about it? They are very engaged, so they know about it, and they dream of visiting Venezuela sometime in the future.

They've never been there. So they know, they have seen images of the beautiful beaches and beautiful places that they can go and visit and they dream off. You know, it's interesting. I bet they miss a place they've never been, which is a unique feeling to have. The sense in your heart that you yearn for a place that you've never been. You have a connection to it, but you've never been. Your heart belongs there, but you've never set foot there. It's a really unique thing, isn't it?

It's unique. I haven't, like last time I was there was 15 years ago and I'm not allowed to go there. So it's really tough. Have you talked to your, how is your family that is there? Are you able to communicate with them? I communicate to them. I keep low profile on their names. My parents were able to live and my sister and my one of my aunts and my cousins.

But I have one of relatives and I try to minimize interactions with them so to protect them. Because as a reality, they see who you are and they find you. your family, you can get in trouble. You know, as I speak to you and I hear the love that you have for your country, I mean, I bet you that it's 35 years ago, your love for Venezuela was my love for Canada today. And what it would take for me to have to leave this place, I don't know. And the fact that you had to make that choice and millions of your fellow Venezuelans had to make that choice is a tragedy that I cannot call.

comprehend. It must have broken your heart and as you left, you had to leave your family and you had to hope that your family would join you. If I had to do that, if I had to leave this country and coax my family to join for fear of their safety and worrying about them all the time, I'm so admiring of you and your compatriots for having had the courage and the fortitude to leave and to build something elsewhere all while retaining that love for your homeland. I want to thank you so much for joining us. I so appreciate it. I hope you'll come back soon.

Thank you, Ben, for having him in the show today. That was a great conversation. What a wonderful guy. Hey, between competing land claims, never-ending acknowledgments, and hundreds of billions of dollars in payments, many are wondering if BC is on its way to being ungovernable. Well, our next guest has a vision of the future

that could end up being a national nightmare. You're going to want to hear that next. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. It's a new time, but same show, hopefully growing our audience, speaking to a larger audience. And we thank you for joining us on this adventure. A lot of us have been asking the question, what is the ultimate conclusion to the drama that we have been seeing, out in British Columbia since the Superior Court of British Columbia came out with that very controversial decision essentially saying that land claims in the city of Richmond, BC, up for grabs.

We were not quite sure who owns the land. And when you overlay that with land acknowledgments and the, what seems to be an explosion in payments by various levels of government to various Aboriginal groups and is seemingly emboldening and empowering of First Nations in that province. A lot of us have questions. Where is this going to go? How is this going to end? What's the conclusion?

Where is this train going to take us? Well, our next guest is Werner Stump. He is the head of the BC Cattlemen's Association. And there's a tweet that I saw attributed to him because he wrote an, an op-ed about this. In the tweet that I saw, it's a very long op-ed,

but not that long, but the highlight is this. I'm going to read this to you, and then we're going to welcome Warner to the show. So, quote, the potential consequence of this ruling, the ruling being undripped,

the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous peoples, is to make BC non-governable. Effectively, all decisions about BC laws are to be made in consultation and in cooperation with over 200 First Nations governments. The province and the First Nations, will form a collective government

that the people of BC do not elect. First Nations leaders have a responsibility to their members only and so they should. Your vote may no longer matter as BC is at risk of becoming a non-democratic society. Please welcome to the show the head of the BC Kettleman's

Association, Warner Stump. I appreciate your time, sir. Warner Stump, are you there? Oh no, I think I'm out of lost him. Well, it's a We're going to try to get them back, but it is, it's, when I read that, that's, that's scary. It's scary. It definitely elicits an emotional response. And it certainly has some, some, the questions I can't answer.

I'm not a constitutional expert. Is Werner there? Werner, are you there? I am. Yeah, pleasure to be here, Ben. Oh, I'm glad to have you. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

Talk to me about why you decide to write this op-ed. Well, when you look at the last 24 months, I guess we've moved from a place where questioning how government was pursuing reconciliation and initiatives was sort of taboo. There wasn't a whole lot of discussion about it. And then, you know, then we moved, as you said, into the couch and or I had this couch and a ruling come out. And so that has been more top of mind with people in terms of the impact potentially to private land. But there really hasn't been a whole lot of discussion about what the implementation of Andrip would mean potentially to our governance system. And so that was the reasoning for me putting that op-ed out there to bring that discussion out into the open. Now, some people, in good faith, will write something overly dramatic in the hopes of spurring conversation.

You know, I think of the guy in the UK, oh, I think the call dropped again. But there was a gentleman who wrote a modest proposal. And it was essentially designed to get people to think about the rights of the poor. He said, like, his modest proposal in the 18th century was for the rich to eat the poor. poor. And obviously he didn't want the rich to eat the poor, but he wanted a conversation to start about the class system and the rights of even the most marginalized. And, Werner, are you still there? I don't know if you heard what I just said. Yeah, no, I didn't kiss that. My question was sometimes people in good faith in an effort to spur conversation will write something

and put something out there that may be a little more dramatic than what they actually believe. Do you believe that this is actually going to happen? Well, you know, I think when we look at the legislation, we have to be very careful to assume that common sense will prevail. And when I read the legislation, it says that, you know, essentially the government must seek the cooperation of First Nations bodies when they approve and amend existing laws. And to me, I mean, that may be the equivalent of a veto, but let's be gracious.

And if it's not a veto, then the government must still consult with First Nations. And that, to me, is problematic because the First Nations rightfully do have to be recountable to their members and represent their members. and they're not voted in by general society. So I think that structure is problematic. I mean, I've got to wonder whether this sort of, if in fact your prediction comes true, I have to wonder whether this comes up to a constitutional challenge.

I mean, I can't imagine that a province of this country could be anything but fully democratic. Like, you're right. First Nations can govern themselves in any way they want. But I have to believe some of them some of them are, you know, one vote per member, but others are not. And I don't know the makeup and how they, how they do their elections, but I don't know that they all follow a democratic model as, as, as, as, as, as we know it in, in, in, at our various levels of

government. Nor do they have to, I don't think. They may have their, they may have their traditional ways of picking leaders, and that's fine. But I can't believe that we can run a a federation of 10 provinces where one of them as part of its fundamental governance is an undemocratic, like there's an undemocratic wing of it. And I would like to believe that as well, and I hope that you're right. But then I also think about what we thought was in the feasible title with respect to private land. And what we thought made sense and what we thought was the law wasn't actually is not necessarily the case.

And so, you know, I think it's certainly worthy of a conversation to say, okay, what kind of government do we want British Columbia to have? And let's make sure if we're actually wanting to pursue maintaining a democratic government, then let's make sure that happens. But it, Werner, it feels to me anytime somebody brings something like that up, there are some very quick to insult people who will label you intolerant on one level or another when, in fact, I don't think, I've read what you said.

I don't think anything could be further from the truth. You know, you've got, you've got an NDP government provincially. You've got what are clearly agenda-driven judges. It feels like the deck is stacked. Yeah. And, you know, that's a good point with respect to, you know, the labeling that might go along with these types of discussions. But it's a really important point that, you know, our association feels strongly, very strongly about how important reconciliation is. and it's vital work, and we need to get it done right.

Yeah. We're currently don't feel like we're going in a direction where society is, you know, coming together and there's harmonization and integration. In fact, you know, I would argue that we've gone backwards in the last year. I heard somebody from British Columbia say, you cannot have reconciliation with anti-colonialism. You can't have people on one say, if the goal is reconciliation, reconciliation starts with respect. if you do not respect the colonial past

of the founding members of this country then you are not actively in good faith pursuing reconciliation you can't have both if you are anti-colonialist as you see as someone says

that you are not seeking reconciliation one is to build and the others to destroy yeah I would I would argue that that respect means to go both ways

yeah yeah and you know I think that's what what makes it is the foundation essentially of a healthy discussion and it's you know it doesn't mean to me an argument we need to we need to work this out collectively yeah where you know in our industry we're very used to having partnerships with you know indigenous and non-indigenous and working together on the land yeah we're in a right i got to leave it there my friend but thank you so much for adding your

voice to the conversation Doc returns this January on Global. My mind is trying to tell me something. With gripping new cases. If it doesn't work, you'll kill him. It will work. They're going to make you the fall guy for this. I just don't want to fail anyone ever again.

As her fight moves forward to recover what was lost. You can't undo what was done. Just let it go. Please. No. her life. I'll do whatever it takes. I'm here if you need to be.

I know. Doc returns Tuesday, January 6th on Global. Stream on StatTV.