The Ben Mulroney Show - The top marketing/branding and economics stories in the news.

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

- Tony Chapman /  Host of the award winning podcast Chatter that Matters - Dr. Eric Kam, Economics Professor at Toronto Metropolitan University If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Twitter: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ TikTok: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Your pay really meant something. Payroll is incredibly complex. It's art and the science. It literally keeps the economy moving. Parole professionals do a lot for us. You know, it's about time we do something for them. How about we ask our leaders to name a day in their honor, a national day to recognize payroll professionals?

I got it. This is perfect. Why don't we explain to people just how important the roles are the payroll professionals play in our lives. We can even ask them to sign a petition. We can even ask them to sign a petition to recognize the third Tuesday in September as the National Day to recognize payroll professionals. We'll rally support and bring the payroll party to the nation.

National payroll party? Precisely. Sounds like a plan, you know, just one thing. What's that? I'm choosing the music. What? And I'm sitting in the backseat. The whole way?

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And, you know, over the course of this show, we've talked about some pretty heady issues. We've talked about Jimmy Kimmel and we've talked about criminal justice and legal reform and how we feel safe in our own homes or how we do not feel safe in our own homes. Let's cleanse the palate a little bit. And let's talk about things that affect our pocketbook and the world that we live in. Let's talk with our good friend Tony Chapman. the host of the award-winning podcast, Chatter That Matters. Tony, welcome to the show. Ben, and I just want to say what you talk about on the radio is refreshing.

It's to the point. You're not afraid to take a position. And I just congratulate you because I know the numbers your radio shows doing, and I know what you're doing with your podcast. And it's testament that people want conversation. They don't want to hide in the shadows. Well, thank you very much, Tony. I really do appreciate it.

I believe you and I are going to be having dinner at some point. It's something like a golf course in the next few months or something like that? Yeah, we're going to be interviewing you live at the Toronto Hunt and we're going to hear a lot about Ben's life story. I guess first of all, growing up with your, you know, no, Tony, Tony, it can be summed up very quickly. I'm a

nepo baby that was handed everything in life. Like, in the story, let's serve dinner. There's a certain person out there that wants to live in a world where the children of successful people cannot be successful in any way that

allows them to feel pride in their work because it was handed to us. It was all handed to us. Yeah. Yeah. Also, the people call me a devil and that's exactly what we want to talk about. Countering that myth. Oh, you know what?

The only way to counter the myth is to just do the work. All right, my friend, let's move on. Canada Goose, right? Wildly successful company. They've been in the news for good reasons and bad reasons over the years from their use of, of sort of animal products, all sorts of stuff, the high cost of their goods. but they are generally and almost exclusively associated with winter.

And that's limiting them in the fall, the spring, and especially the summer. And they look to change that. They're looking to change that. And I'm not a fan. And I'll tell you why. I believe that when you own a lane, the way they own it, that you should just stay in that lane and continue to be the best at it. And it's not to say that there's not a market 12 months.

a year for them because obviously winter and the sun varies very differently on our planet. I just think that they're making a big mistake because to try to just be one of many versus the only one, it's a difficult, difficult road to take. And you suddenly open yourself up to a lot of competitors that can come in and basically just point if they're going, you're just like every other brand. Well, you behold on, what if instead of trying to own winter, they try to own the goose. And the goose exists year-round. And, you know, in the summertime, they are swimming and they have that, you know,

their feathers keep them warm in the cold water and cold in the warm water. And maybe there's a way of rebranding. So it's not about the winter, but it's about the animal that represents their brand. You know, it's an interesting play. You'd have to brainstorm it out. Immediately, I'd say, are you stretching the consumer's appetite to go there? You know, they've really carved out a look and a feel and an influence who took them on. They've got a statement they've made.

Now, obviously, with those kinds of brands, you've got to be careful because when you go up like a rocket ship, you can follow just as quickly. Yeah. But I really get, like I look at Alexander Keith years ago. They owned 18% of the drafter market. Everybody ordered a Keith. Next thing you know, they got into Keith Light, they got into Keith Brown, Keith Red, Keith's cider. And before you know it, Alexander Keyes was just like every other beer. and lost its identity.

It's lost its point of distinction. Certainly luxury cars have done it well where they've gone from being a sports car to an SUV, but it's a tough one to go to. And I look at Canada Goose, and I go, for sure they've got a brand name, people will go to the shelf and shop, but are they going to lose what made them special?

Which is to say, when I slip on a Canada goose, I'm willing to pay a premium for it, because that is a brand that stands out and stands for versus just yet one of many luxury brands. It gets in the sunclasses, lipsticks, hoodies, and $700 sneakers. You know, I'm going to throw a curveball at you.

I hope you don't mind, but you said something. You talked about brands. You talked about luxury SUVs. And there's, I don't know if you've seen it yet, but the look of the 2025 cyber truck looks nothing like the, the cyber truck that we all know right now. It actually is a really cool looking truck that, looks, like I said, nothing like the old cyber truck.

And I got to wonder what the people who bought the first one are going to be thinking about this new one, because those who rush to be the first are going to freaking hate themselves when they see what the new offering is going to be. How does a brand justify that? Well, it's interesting. So you have your earlier adopters who want to be the first in. They want to get in there and say, look, I am the first, I'm the coolest. But then when a brand pivots, like you said, on a dime and comes out with something

and actually looks for the mass market going, that is a truck that I'm after. What you're left with is a lot of early adopters become very bitter because you're sitting with an asset that's depreciating in their driveway. And I think that that's the, but the beauty of today with AI is you can adapt your brand at the speed of life.

And to me, I would encourage somebody, you know, if you've got a design product, because you're getting a lot of blowback and feedback that's just not working, rather than trying to switch the headlights or the tires, go back to the drawing board and then come out with something and almost create the next new wave as opposed to being an extension of the existing wave.

And I give them a full mark for that. I just feel bad for those early doctors because, you know, they're going to have to sell that for recycled aluminum. I mean, it already looks like it belongs in the museum. It doesn't it look like the DeLorean car or something that you saw once and you go, I'd never want it again, but it sort of made a statement. No, have you seen the new DeLoreans? No, the old DeLore, the original DeLorean, which is cool car. You got to see the new one.

The new DeLorean, it's an EV company. And it's a, yeah. Again, they took a brand that was existing and they remodel it. So it's great. So in some ways, I'm contradicting Canada Goose. But again, with Canada Goose, to me, you own a lane. And in fashion, if you can own a lane and stick with it, I think you're, you're smarter for it. All right.

So listen, we want to talk about rebranding a university. Laurentian University is getting rid of everything. and they want to get rid of the Voyager as their mascot. They want to get rid of the logo. And before we go into your thoughts on how to rebrand, I want to take a page out of a wonderful, it's Greendale College, which is a community college in Colorado. And they rebranded in, I think, the most inclusive way possible.

We are developing the perfect mascot, no stereotypical identifiers from any race or gender. See, Jeff, this is a chart of the features we're staying away from. Pan-Asian eye folds, Irish chins, women's breasts. Is that Seal? That is our human color wheel. It goes from Seal to Seal's teeth. What do you think?

I think not being racist is the new racism. Yes, and so they settled on the Greendale human being, which is terrifying. It looks like Slender Man. And, of course, that is from the woefully underappreciated NBC sitcom community. I doubt that Laurentian is going to be taking cues from them, but what do you think they should be paying attention to? Well, first of all, they lost their mascot because they called, you know, like this was, I think it had to do with Vikings and capturing tarikar and stuff.

The world's getting ridiculous. They had a great, great mascot, they had a team alumni, people identified with it, generations, beautiful thing about university. Even if you've left it 20 or 30 years later, you still go back for reunions. And to throw your baby out with the bathwater, just because you think you're offending a couple people that said, I'm taking exception. I question, honestly, if somebody feels their life has changed

because the original mascot represented a time in history where people on sailing boats showed up and conquered land. I mean, it's just this world's gone so silly, and I would have preferred, and say the argument with TMU, which is another one, I would never, why you'd ever get rid of Ryerson, is we've just got to push back and we've got to just say, this is stupid just because some individual says this is wrong.

Just ignore them and stick with what's important. You've got an asset that's got an alumni, an alumni donates money to you, they identify with you. Why would you ever throw that out because some individual feels like they're not going to get a good night's sleep because of what that mascot represented from 300 years ago? All right, Tony Chapman. Thank you so much, my friend. I'll talk to soon.

All right. When did Canada's financial free fall begin? We got a new stat that paints a sad picture. This is The Ben Mulroney Show. This show is sponsored by Better Help. Let's be honest. We've all shared our problems in some pretty funny places, the group chat, your barber, maybe even a stranger on a plane. And, hey, sometimes that helps.

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Thank you very much for joining us. You know, we've talked a lot about Canada's lost decade under Justin Trudeau. And I'm not trying to prosecute that time. anymore. But the graphs that I've seen about our lack of productivity, lack of foreign investment, I mean, you name it. At about 2015, that's when there was this bifurcation of the parallel tracks that the Americans and the Canadians were on. In 2015, something happened. You can decide what that thing was. And we started going south and they started going north. And there's another

graph that we want to talk about today that speaks to, you know, how difficult it might be to turn this ship around. Please welcome to the show, Dr. Eric Kim, economics professor at Toronto Metropolitan University. Doc, welcome to the show. Benedict, thank you as always. Okay, so we're talking about investment in, I guess, industrial hardware, right? So what does that mean? That means really broadly speaking, anything that turns out to be under the umbrella of research and development, what we call the big picture or the big builds or things like that, that really try to focus on an increase in the supply side of the Canadian economy, meaning unlike interest rate changes, where we just try to play around with the business cycle for short-term

rises and falls. I mean, you don't want to get the high is too high, the low is too low. When you're talking about what you're talking about. You're looking at things that are actually going to affect how many goods and services can our economy produce and therefore can we have growth in our real growth domestic product. Yeah. So yeah. So this is this is a machinery and equipment that sort of our manufacturing side depends on to build the things that people then buy. And if people aren't investing in in upgrading their machinery, we can't build the things that are relevant to the 2025 marketplace. And I'm looking at this chart.

And by and large, we were on a parallel track with the Americans. Every now and then we would nudge past them on that chart. By and large, we followed. But lockstep a little bit behind, right? And it was predictable. It would go up with the market when the market was good and down when the market was bad. I'm looking at where we are today. It has cratered past where it was during COVID.

and it is, in fact, lower than it was in 1985, in terms of real numbers, 1985. I don't know. So what is the knock-on effect for this? Why should the people listening at home worry about, you know, investment in industrial machinery and equipment? Well, first of all, Ben, in 1985, the country had a real prime minister, but I digress.

Oh, it shot up like a rocket ship after 1985, just for, clarity's sake. Just for clarity's sake, that's right. Listen, one thing happened to wreck this economy. And let's be clear about this. And it happened in 2015, which is Trudeau came into power. And it is that simple. I mean, you can look at some exogenous factors like the oil price collapsed.

But what happened was Trudeau came in, brought in the carbon tax. And all of a sudden, like Domino's Ben, Canada started to drop its investment, drop its investment in machinery and equipment and oil and gas. We scaled back our things like natural resources. And then again, more dominoes. The dollar collapse, GDP growth collapse, debt concerns went through the roof. So you have to look at 2015 as the year that we went left and the United States went right. And I don't use those directions by accident, Ben.

Okay, but specifically in the year 2025, it's almost been a complete drop. Like, it looks like it's a penny dropping from a third floor window. And Mark Carney has been the new liberal leader signaling he was going to be a different, he was a different leader. He came with a resume that Justin Trudeau certainly did not have. You would think that just the very election of that kind of leader would signal to people, hey, maybe it's time to, you know, maybe it's time for us to re-evaluate whether or not we we want to make these investments.

And I would have just expected it to, I don't know, flatten, but instead it's the worst precipitous drop, I think, on the chart since maybe, since maybe 2008. Well, for sure. Listen, Ben, managing an economy is not easy, but it's all about policy and policy responses, okay? And what have we done, right? I look at where, where, what was, what will be faced with, right? This massive decline in manufacturing and the resource sector, the softening of the job market, this shift in fiscal balance, and then this global uncertainty. And what did elbows up do? Well, he brought in his own version of a big, beautiful bill,

which I've seen nothing yet, although you're right, you're going to tell me it's early, fine. But his only other policy response was to, cut interest rates. And cutting interest rate deals with none of the problems that you're seeing in that graph in front of you. And so I think that's what's so frustrating is that you can say he's brand new. I'll give you that. He got rid of Freeland. Thank heaven. But the reality is, is it just looked at this point like a continuation of 10 years of complete and utter economic mismanagement, Ben. We were promised that there was going to be a reevaluation of our, of our relationship with the Americans in the form of a new security and trade deal, which has not

happened, but there is reporting that is bubbling up, that is telling us that the Americans wanted to do something and they just didn't get the responses they wanted from the Canadians. So what are we to make of that? I think you have a lot to take. I think that they're being honest in saying that Canada didn't live up to its part of the bargain. And you can rest assured that we probably walked away from table earlier than we should have. And so what did that do? What message economically did that send to the United States? And for that matter, the rest of the world is that we're a country that balances on trade uncertainty, right? We should have been negotiating and renegotiating instead of

just throwing uncertain risky messages to our exporters and our importers, but we didn't. So we didn't manage market risk the way we should have. We shouldn't have stabilized the supply chain the way we should have. So we've just thrown a real, I can't swear on the show, but you know what we threw into the investment climate, the agricultural sector, the energy sector, right? We did nothing more. And then by the way, I'm going to say it again, because it's like watching somebody dance on the Titanic. We just kept coming back with we'll drop the interest rate and everything will be okay. Our policy dependence will disappear. No. It didn't happen. And Ben, it will never happen. They've got one bullet in their gun. They need a new damn gun. And I know this is the wrong

week for that analogy. No, well, they're the ones, they're the ones who want to buy back all the guns. So they'll have all the guns at some point. And, but I want to throw something at you that wasn't on our list. I want to talk about this, this, you know, the list of, of investments of natural importance, like investments and projects of national importance. And one of the knocks on this, this, this, this fast tracking of that project, of that system is it's overlaid over the, the very same, uh, system that Justin Trudeau set up that has made, uh, investment from a broad allergic to Canada. So they've done nothing about the underlying problem. And in fact, all they're doing is if we pick your project, it'll get

done faster. But every other project is subject to that same, uh, investment allergic system. Well, yeah, and I would agree with that. I mean, you know, we should have had these policies to be enhancing our labor productivity and some diplomatic coalition building, and we haven't really done any of that. You know, the big question for me is in this, again, I'm going to call it again, our Canadian big, beautiful bill, is what part of this is going to fall to the public sector and which part of it is going to attract private sector partners? And if I believe for 10 seconds that we could bring in some private sector partners, to create some efficiencies and move this process along, then I would have some positive things to tell our audience. But what's going to happen? This is just going to be another, in my opinion, another public sector crowding out of the private sector. And so, yeah, you're going to build a few things,

and that's better than not building a few things. But all it's going to do is increase the debt and the deficit, and then you've got to look at it and go, why did we bother? Eric Cam, I've got to leave it there, but thank you very much, my friend. Stay healthy, buddy. For four years, Noah and Sarah have been clying out from beneath the Denver airport. They have faced monsters, secret armies, and killing machines. But they're done running.

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