The Ben Mulroney Show - The Toronto cast -- Bike lanes, and the growth of AI doctors and DIY health

Episode Date: July 10, 2025

- DR. Nadia Alam -Dr. Zainab Abdurrahman OMA president If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Some regional exclusions apply. Learn more at TurboTax.ca slash business tax. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney show on this Thursday, July 10. Thank you so much for starting your day with us. Tomorrow's Friday. We got the weekend coming up and we wanted to start the show off. There's gonna be a lot of heavy stuff that we talk about. We wanted to start the show off with, well, some of it's good, some of it's bad.

The Jays lost yesterday ending their win streak. And look, I am of two minds. You wanted the excitement of a streak, right? You love that. It gets the entire, gets people on the bandwagon. And look, I'll admit, I'm not somebody who watches the Jays each and every day. So I guess you could call me a bandwagon guy.

I have a renewed interest in the team because of this. But the way I look at it is I kind of, there's a part of me that didn't want them to match the record, beat the record and then go farther than that. In my estimation, it raises expectation. What I'd rather have is a couple of seven win streaks, a nine game win streak,

winning, sweeping a team here and there. It keeps you sneaky. It keeps you under the radar. And I go back to the Oakland A's, the money ball year, where they won what, 23 in a row? They were expected to win everything because of that. They were unstoppable. They were perfect for almost, for like 23 games.

You do that and the pressure, the pressure mounts. And so I kind of liked that this happened. They've served notice. They've said, you know, this is the team we are. We weren't overperforming. You were just under indexing our abilities. And so now what they do from here, the pressure's off. They start a new streak today.

Maybe it's four, maybe it's five. I don't know what it is, but you know, if they can do, if they can string together three or four and then lose one and then win four or maybe it's five, I don't know what it is. But you know, if they can do, if they can string together three or four and then lose one and then win four or five and lose one, that's a hell of a streak. I mean, that's the streak I want. So there's that.

That's how I'm choosing to look at that glass half full. Another thing that I said yesterday, glass half full, that I'm choosing to look at, is the Rogers Stadium experience, right? So I was pretty hard on that group after the cacophony of failures, the cascading failures of the very first concert. And we talked with city councilor James Pasternak

whose award they find themselves in, brought all the stakeholders together to try to improve it. And I was like, well, let's pay attention to how well they're doing with improving the fan experience, getting them in and out, water and shade and concessions and all that stuff. And then yesterday I was like, you know what? What Rogers has done here is they have given us a place

for Coldplay and groups like cold play to perform this summer. We didn't have that before, which meant we wouldn't have had a cold play. And the knock on economic benefit of having one of the biggest bands in the world show up for three, four or five days. It's a big deal. And so a lot of thanks have to go out to them. And I've been following what's going on on social media. And there was a woman who posted about her experience leaving the concert, I guess it was two nights ago, because I saw it midday yesterday. And she left the concert at, I think, 11 11. And by the time she left her seats, got through the exits, and they were letting people out in batches, she had to wait about five minutes between batches. Then she had to wait a couple of minutes at the door of the Downsview TTC station. Then she had to wait about two minutes to get on train and by the time she got in her car it was less than

40 minutes from the time she was sort of at the exit of Rogers Stadium to when she was in her car going from the TTC station to her home. That is not, that doesn't rise to the level of, of something that we've got to complain about. It does seem like they are getting this stuff organized. And I also saw a video of what the concert looked like as the sun was setting.

And then what it looked like when everybody's light bands, you know, they have these wristbands that light up, that really give you a visual component to the concert. It was stunning, absolutely stunning. And so I'm not looking at as glass half full. I'm looking at it as glass half full that is well on its way to running over because that to me looked like a huge success

and congratulations to everyone involved. The cherry on top of this is the cleansing tonic of Chris Martin's banter with the crowd that to me is the antidote to the toxic poison that we were all subjected to last week with the vile, racist, anti-Semitic, destructive nonsense that came out of the mouth of a, of a, of a, honestly, without this,

no name pop or punk rap band Bob Villain from Glastonbury, where the lead singer spouted some of the most uneducated, violent, racist crap you could possibly say to a crowd. Let's listen to Chris Martin addressing similar topics with a completely different tone and outlook. Yesterday we had a beautiful Palestinian flag, today we have an Israeli flag. addressing similar topics with a completely different tone and outlook. I'm so grateful and I hope you're having a good time. This religion, that religion, that nationality, this nationality, all this stuff, all I see is a group of people who are getting along

just fine despite the differences. So thank you for showing us the best possible. I mean, come on, man. It's pretty simple. It's pretty simple. That guy gets so much respect from me and I guarantee you, the people in the crowd, even the ones with their,

who might hold in their heart, they might be on a war footing all the time, every time they walk down the street and they might be omnipresent in their lives. In that moment to have a guy who's not from here, just give us that perspective. Yeah, F you Bob Villain and thank you Chris Martin. So, there, I woke up again today to more news about it looks like the battle

over bike lanes in the city of Toronto is well, it's going to endure. You'll remember we were promised by the, by the Ford government that they would be ripped up in short order. And then the cycling activists got together and got an injunction. And from what I understand, they were organized, and the province wasn't. And that's one of the reasons they got their injunction. And then the government said that they were going to appeal the injunction. And now that same judge has denied the injunction. So I reached out to the minister of transport, probably Zakaria, and asked him for a statement.

He gave me the statement that he sent out yesterday, quote, We will continue with the design work necessary to begin removals of bike lanes and get some of our busiest roads moving as soon as possible. While we respect the court's decision, our government was elected with a clear mandate to get people out of traffic by restoring driving lanes. And one of the reps for the cycling advocates said like, oh, this proves that bike lanes don't cause congestion

and they make our streets safer. Show me the data. Bike lanes do cause congestion. Now, you may be involved in some really nifty word smithing where the simple, like the bike lane itself doesn't cause congestion. So here, I'll turn around. The removal of a lane of traffic does cause congestion.

And I've said this before, my argument is as follows. Under John Tory, we had these massive traffic blitzes to stop delivery vans from double parking during busy times of day on streets like Yonge Street. They were ticketed with impunity because we believed, and the data supported it, that that simple choke point of reducing two lanes to one was making life unbearable for drivers. Okay? So if you believe that that is true, then what is a bike lane if not a row of double parking vehicles

the entire stretch of Yonge Street? But that doesn't cause, I'm sorry, that doesn't cause a traffic congestion. When you say something like that, you are looking at a person like myself, and you are looking at the thousands of people stuck in traffic every day that they shouldn't be stuck in, and you are treating us like idiots. You are talking to us like morons.

And I don't stand for that. and you are treating us like idiots. You are talking to us like morons. And I don't stand for that. This will get resolved to the satisfaction of the taxpayer, of the person whose taxes pay for those roads, which are the drivers. Because the last I said, when you buy a bicycle, you don't have to register it. You don't have to pay a gas tax.

You don't have to pay taxes on hundreds of dollars on your tires. And every time you take your car in, you don't have your bicycle in. There is no cost associated with a bicycle beyond buying the bicycle. And, and, and, and so we're done. Okay. I could have gone on for the 20 minutes. Okay, don't go anywhere because when we come back, we're gonna take a long hard look at AI

as it relates to healthcare and this is going to be going on for the rest of this hour. So if you care about your health and if you care about our healthcare system and if you wonder where AI is gonna go in that journey, join us right here on the Ben Mulroney Show. Welcome back to The Ben Mulroney Show. And if I've said it once, I've said it a million times, if we truly believe that our healthcare system is the greatest in the world and is worthy of saving,

and if we realize that never before have we put more money into it and gotten worse outcomes, then surely we can all agree that every idea on how to make it more efficient and optimized and geared towards getting the best outcomes for patients and the best working conditions for doctors, nurses, and support staff should be on the table. And in this world of artificial intelligence, where those tools are being created and being developed and becoming more effective every day,

surely we can agree that we at the very least need to look at them and whether or not they can fit into a system that allows us to achieve those end goals. And so when I read that Microsoft has built an AI system that they believe is better than doctors at diagnosing complex health conditions, and it is going to lead to medical super intelligence for AI, I got to wonder, is there a place for it?

And is that, where is that place? And more importantly, if we believe there's a place for it in our healthcare system, what does that do with the doctors? So joining us to discuss this is a friend of the show, a doctor in her own right, and the former head of the Ontario Medical Association, Dr. Nadia Allam. Doc, welcome to the show. Good morning, Ben.

Yeah, listen, so let's talk about this AI super intelligence. So they tested it on some mock diagnoses, and they said that it was able to diagnose complex health conditions, and I'll ask you about what that means in a minute, but they said they were able to get it, quote, get it right eight out of 10 times versus their human analogs

that got it right two out of 10 times, their human analogs that got it right two out of 10 times and Microsoft is suggesting that within five years it should be pretty close to perfect. What do you think of those statements? And then we'll talk about what the implications of them could be. I have to say I chuckled when I saw that. And it's not that I don't believe in AI. You and I both know that I'm a firm believer of AI

and its potential to help patients. I do not believe they could ever replace doctors. I also don't believe the claim that they can diagnose complex illnesses better than doctors. Okay. And there are some questions I have, like I tried to find the study that's been submitted for publication.

Often it's kept under wraps until publication. So when it does come out, I'll be very curious to see what their methods were. Cause what I read in the article doesn't really make sense. What about it doesn't make sense to you? So they said that the AI mimicked a panel of doctors. We see panels of doctors in complex cases, particularly cancer cases, right?

They're called tumor boards, where you'll have surgeons, oncologists, radiation therapists, that are oncologists, allied health arise all around a table talking about a particular patient and the kind of care they're going to need, the kind of supports they're going to need. You know what? I saw a panel of those on a television show.

It was a Netflix show. It was about this influencer out of Australia who pretended to have cancer and leverage that for fame and fortune. And they compared that to a woman who actually did have cancer. And her conversations with that panel of doctors is actually pretty well laid out, where each one of them has a different specialty and they all intersect. So is that, so that's what we're talking about here.

That's exactly what we're talking about. In this instance though, when they tested AI, at least this is what the article said, right? The news article, I'm very curious to see what the study does. In the news article, what they said was that they tested these complex patients against a single doctor, no colleagues, no access to computers or the support items

that we use to help us diagnose complex illnesses and manage, most of all manage, complex patients. So it doesn't seem like a level playing ground. Right, okay, so let's, listen, I don't know anything, so I'm of course gonna defer to you on this sort of thing, but let's live in a world, we live in a world where AI is getting better every single day. So let's live in a world where you're right today,

but you could be wrong in a few years, right? And I guess the question I have is the idea of this tool existing as a tool to better serve patients, if it's in the hands of doctors, if doctors are the ones running the show, then have doctors truly been replaced or have doctors just learned how to use a new tool in service of their patient?

It's the latter. Yeah. So it's a, it really is a tool at the end of the day. AI can gather information from what's readily available. It can't, it has no creativity. It has no originality. It has no, um, uh, what's it called? It has no emotional intelligence.

These are all key traits of good doctors. Because, I mean, look at the COVID-19 pandemic. We had no idea what was going on. We didn't understand the disease. We didn't understand what it did to the human body initially. We didn't understand any treatments initially. And now we're miles ahead.

I remember when I was sitting there on Twitter and there was this Google document that was shared. It was literally doctors piling in all of the information that they had seen so far from all around the world. And you could see it being created, knowledge being shared, knowledge like creating it and being able to create management plans, experiments that had been tried and failed,

don't do this, try this instead. It was extraordinary. AI could not do that. And look, I remember last year, there was a study that came out of, I guess it was at some university medical center in Southern California, and it was how AI was able to detect tumors in the body far earlier than

any doctor could. And with one of the startups that I work with, we've been able to train an AI to determine the viability of women's eggs and the viability as to whether or not these eggs are healthy enough for implantation far better than the human eye can detect. The fact that these computers are going to be able to do things better than humans, that's not surprising. By and large, at specific tasks, computers can be better than human beings. It's what we do with that tool, right? And we certainly use AI right now in many areas of medicine.

So not just radiology, so being able to detect cancer using imaging, but also dermatology, oncology, cardiology. There's lots of fields. And even in primary care, we've begun using AI. And it's a great tool, but it's a tool among many tools, a very sophisticated tool. It's gonna be a lot of fun to see where it goes.

And it is gonna be a game changer in how I practice medicine. So at the end of the day, patients are not gonna get diagnosed and managed by a fancy textbook. They're gonna get diagnosed and managed by a fancy textbook. They're going to get diagnosed and managed by a human doctor who sees them as a whole rather than a textbook case of symptoms. So give me your prediction of the future of health care where there is a diagnostic tool, an AI diagnostic tool that can do things faster and more effectively and with better results than human doctors ever could.

Tell me, tell me, explain the system for me of a diagnosis of a diagnosis where, where doctors and a genius AI can coexist. So one, there are areas where AIs are better, right? where doctors and a genius AI can coexist? So one, there are areas where AIs are better, right? We know AI is better at dermatology. We know that AI performs better in radiology in certain areas. Is it going to be able to do better than human doctors in all areas of dermatology and radiology? No.

Yeah. I actually think there's a great potential to use artificial intelligence in primary care. Cause at the end of the day, when a patient walks through my door with a constellation of symptoms and signs, stuff that they're seeing, they're feeling, patients know themselves really well

and can tell if something's off. Yeah. So when they walk in and tell me about these symptoms, I don't have the full picture. Right? And so I start thinking about what things could be. This is where AI could be very useful because AI can think about rare illnesses, stuff that I haven't thought of. It can offer, like, I'm not going to be able to memorize every single drug that's out there. Yeah. It certainly helps suggest medications that may be useful.

Now, it's going to be abiding by the formulary, and most doctors will tell you there's the on-label indications for using a medication, and there's off-label indications for using a medicine and there's off-label indications for using a medicine for illnesses. And they both work really well, but the formulary won't necessarily list it. So AI will be very good at those kinds of things. And I think it will help me manage really complex patients, even in settings like palliative care, where patients have a number of illnesses. One of my patients that I'm going to be going to see after this interview is a person with heart failure, kidney failure, liver failure. Like these are the kinds of patients

that are considered complex. These are the kinds of patients I treat. And even though I'm palliative. We're gonna have to leave it there. We're gonna have to let you get to that patient right now because we've run out of time. But thank you so much. And we hope you have a great end to your week and we'll talk to

you soon. Sounds good. Thank you so much for covering this. Yes, thank you. And then from a former OMA head to the current OMA head, we're going to be talking next about the warning of DIY medicine. Don't go anywhere. What's better than a well marmarbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue? A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door. A well-marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders.

Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. Welcome back to the Ben Mulrooney Show, and thank you for joining us wherever you may find us. There are so many places where you can learn about the show, explore the show, test drive the show, and join us growing the show. You can listen on radio, on the iHeartRadio streaming app, on all the podcast platforms. You can watch us on YouTube or you can and, and, not or, and you can enjoy us in bite-sized formats on all the social media platforms. I like to say that you can test drive us on Instagram. And by the way, we are doing gang

busters on Instagram. We would love for you to join us there. Follow us, like our content, share our content. That's how we can get the word out on the Ben Mulroney Show to as many people as possible. This entire hour, we're talking healthcare in Canada. In the final segment of the hour, we're gonna be taking your calls at 416-870-6400 or 1-888-225-TALK. But we're talking right now about DIY medicine, about how, in my opinion, people feel disempowered

in their ability to access healthcare, in their ability to work with a doctor, and therefore it seems like they are turning to doing it themselves when it comes to their health. Not ideal, but is it a necessary evil? Well, let's talk now with the current president of the Ontario Medical Association, Dr. Zainab Abdur-Rahman.

Doctor, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. So we've talked on this show before about people going to the WebMDs of the world and now the chat GPTs of the world to diagnose their health issues. And you know, that the the counter to like people say, oh, that's a terrible idea. But the counter is, well, what else are they supposed to do if they can't get themselves a family doctor? But people are going one step further and actually treating themselves these days. Absolutely, and that's where the concern is. We recognize that people want to improve their health

and they want to prevent disease. And this is also what we want. And we recognize that this is in the light that, you know, 2.5 million Ontarians don't have access to a family doctor. So people are trying to find different ways to fill in this gap. But unfortunately, this has turned up to be quite a bit of a dangerous route to take, because we know that, you know, information that you can access, there's no vetting on these. So you are not sure if this is a safe solution, if this is actually speaking to what you actually have. You might have one of the 10 things

they describe and then try to use a treatment and actually cause yourself much more harm. And we know we've seen that already. And that's in our previous segment, we were talking with one of your colleagues, the former OMA president, talking about how there is, you is, we're living in a world where we could one day have incredible AI diagnostic tools, but if you don't know what questions to ask the AI about your health, and if the AI doesn't know what to ask you, then you're not necessarily

gonna get it right, and to me, that's where the human element comes in. And not for nothing, doctor, but it's for me, one of the big issues with AI is there isn't the accountability that comes from getting it wrong that comes from a doctor getting it wrong. Self preservation is a hell of an instinct.

And a doctor is going to, because their medical license, their reputation, the life of their, of their patient, all these things factor into them be wanting to double check, triple check, ask every single question to ensure that it get the proper, they get the proper diagnosis and therefore the proper treatment with an AI and AI doesn't have that that need for self preservation. And therefore, I don't know that they an AI can ever care as much as a human being. No. And that's what exactly what we're talking about is that, you know, as doctors, we're invested in our patients and we're going to continue to follow you

and we're going to keep checking and we might do around and look at certain aspects and if we're not finding answers, we're going to continue. But we're going to keep checking. And you know, we might do around and look at certain aspects. And if we're not finding answers, we're going to continue, but we're invested in our patients. And you're right, that human relationship where you're looking out for someone, that's not something that machines do. It's not saying that machines do, but we also can't sit here and say that there isn't a place.

There is absolutely, and not only a place, but a growing place for AI within that patient to doctor relationship. To deny it is to put us behind the eight ball and it's to recognize that we're unwilling to do the things that ultimately will make the lives of doctors better and certainly improve outcomes for patients. Absolutely. And that's, you know, what we're not saying that we should not use AI. Actually, there's a lot of great uses for AI. Many patients might be experiencing their doctors

actually using AI Scribe in their office, where they're having more of that face-to-face time. And the AI Scribe is actually helping summarize the visit and provide both the patient and the doctor with a summary at the end. There's also a lot of administrative burden that we would love to bring AI in to take care of that so we can have more of that person to person element,

which is a part of medicine that we as the doctors provide. So we're very much open to having AI come and do a lot of that other work so we can preserve the human factor, which is what people really want when they see their doctor. Well, let's talk about the here and now and the problem that is facing our sort of the that relationship and the fact that in the absence of a doctor, patients are doing anything that they can to to help themselves or at least try to help themselves.

But there was a survey that said that 62 percent of Canadians say they've seen false or misleading health info online. That's up from up 8% from last year and 23% reported negative health reactions after acting on internet advice. What do you tell those people who are so desperate for help that they are going to, you know, what someone said once like in the absence of in the absence of leadership, people who are yearning for leadership are like people wandering alone in the desert. And in the absence of true leadership, they will follow anything,

even if that false leadership leads them to eating the sand. Yes, and this is the issue. So from that perspective, it is about also reminding everyone that the information online is not necessarily vetted. It's not been through any kind of a process. And you have to also look anything that you do find, you know, also cross check, check with anyone that you do have access to. You know, even if you don't have a regular family doctor still, if you were concerned about your health, see a doctor, whether that's an urgent care, if it's an

emergency, please go to the emergency department. If you have access to a walk-in, a lot of communities also have other realms for patients to still access. For example, you know, we talk about this a lot with some of the mental health issues and people looking for some direction. A lot of times, our communities do have mental health associations that have that will link you in and get you into the system to get help as well. So there are a lot of places that you can access health if you don't have a regular family doctor, but we are still continuing the fight in terms of

advocacy and in terms of funding to get you access to that family doctor, because we know that longitudinal insight into your health is critical. And we want Ontarians to have access to that. And we want you to have full access to your publicly funded healthcare system. Now you've said a couple of times that a lot of the information is not vetted online

and therefore it could do more harm than good. And sometimes the harm is actually physical. And sometimes the harm is just the amount of time that a doctor is going to have to get a patient to unlearn the bad behaviors and the bad information that they have. But there have to be some sources online that could be recommended. If you are going to go look at certain sources,

what are some trusted vetted sources of information that could help somebody? Yeah. And so you can go to the medical associations and talking about things like the Canadian Medical Association, the Ontario Medical Association. Also, you know, depending what you're looking for, you know, sometimes people want to check things like Cancer Care Ontario if you're looking more at that. Some of our mental health associations, CAMH has a lot of patient information about also mental health resources.

And so, and also don't forget also our government websites in terms of Public Health Ontario as well. So there are a lot of vetted websites that you can access that can give you some information as well in the interim. And the other part is, I also want to point out that the other issue with a lot of this medical misinformation that people are getting is that in that same study that you were quoting, they also noted that Canadians, 43% said they were experiencing mental distress and increased anxiety due to the misinformation.

So it's also adding more. It's adding to the mental health burden that we already have more and more Canadians are dealing with on a daily basis. Dr. Abdul Rahman, thank you so much for being here. We hope that you come back onto the Ben Mulroney show anytime that there is something that you think is of importance. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. Thanks so much for spending a little bit of your Thursday with us. We're spending a little bit of time this morning on health care. It is a cherished right,

it is a cherished government program. It has fallen into disrepair over the years. Despite that, it is held in high regard. And therefore, I think it's incumbent upon us to really have honest conversations about what problems are ailing the system, therefore, I think it's incumbent upon us to really have honest conversations about what problems are ailing the system, why it's costing so much money for us to get such bad outcomes. And with the AI revolution in full swing, there are more and more tools out there

that people can avail themselves of. And we've been talking about people self-diagnosing using online tools, using AI to diagnose themselves. Is this the future or is it a future we definitely do not want? So that's the conversation I wanna have with you at 416-870-6400 or 1-888-225-TALK. Do you have any experience self-diagnosing

or being diagnosed via AI? How did it go? Was it successful? Did it help you? Did it speed things up when you ultimately saw a doctor? All of these things we want to explore in this segment. And let's kick things off with Jim. Jim, thanks so much for calling in. What are your thoughts on AI and how it folds into health care?

Good morning. Yeah, it's not so much of AI, but the previous statement that you made about, you know, people doing their own medical research via internet or other sources. So with myself at this time in 25, I'm glad I did do the research I did in 2020. It kept me from getting the vaccine due to FDA regulations being approved just on the emergencies. So when I did my research on it and stuff like that, it was profound that I found anybody that was on the side of care as far as what the vaccine was. They were taken down from any type of site. But like I mentioned to your screener, to this day,

I'm very grateful to myself, to the Lord, to say that I avoided having to get that. And I believe that a lot of people did the same. And that you know I avoided having to get that and I believe that yeah a lot of people did the same well yeah I work at it and Jim Jim I thank you for your call and I thank you for your honesty and and look you know I'm I I've said it before on this show despite you know I line up with a lot of our listeners on a lot of things I find myself on the wrong side of a lot of them when I say that I was I believe that the the net result of the vaccine program in North America and indeed around the world was positive.

Are certain did certain people get it they didn't need to get it sure. Did we go too far in the mandates and in circumscribing people's rights to do it. Yes, mandates and in circumscribing people's rights. Yes, I'm glad I got it. I'm glad my kids got it. I felt safer that I got it. And frankly, I'm glad that we as a society marshal our resources behind it. That's not the conversation I want to have.

But listen, I respect you, sir, for your opinion. I'm glad you called in. And I'm glad that now that we are past it, you are happy and healthy. And hopefully we can move on and take take lessons, whatever they are, from that, from that international project that we all went that we all undertook. Frank, welcome to the show. Thanks for calling in. Good morning, Ben. I think AI is a great tool. The only problem that I see is that if inadequate data or not complete data is included in the system, you could run into problems where you have misdiagnosis or have a diagnosis that otherwise would not have

been found had the other data not been omitted. So I think AAI should be used as a basis with a doctor to affirm a diagnosis or to clarify based on a doctor's analysis as well as the data from AI, whether there's any missing factors that basically will avoid any errors made in the analysis and in the diagnosis. I agree that ultimately a decision has to be made by a human being because as I said with our previous guest, self-preservation, the idea that a doctor wants to continue being a doctor and they wanna keep their patient alive

and if they don't keep their patient alive, that negatively affects the doctor moving forward. Self-preservation is a hell of a motivator. And therefore, if AI can winnow down, whittle down the options that a doctor is gonna be using. So let's say somebody comes in and presents with something that could be five different things. And AI is a tool that takes those five down to two.

The amount of time between diagnosis and treatment could be weeks. And those weeks could help save that patient's life. That's the world I want to live in. I don't wanna live in a world where somebody just shows up at a kiosk and AI does some sort of like up and down look at them and says, oh, you've got X.

Okay, but they didn't ask them, you know, did they smoke? Did they live in this area? What was their diet like? I don't know that it will ever be the complete thing because a doctor in a desire to keep being a doctor has to prove themselves with every single case that they are good at their job. And if they don't, they are gonna lose their license

or they're gonna lose so many patients that they lose their license. You see what I'm saying? Like it's the human element and it needs to be respected on so many fronts. I agree with you fully, Ben. And then there's the issue of liability, the issue of liability, liability with AI, there's a great dependence on it. Who does that fall on? Exactly. The AI designer or the doctor. So those things I think need to be clarified as well. Yeah, and I'm afraid, thank you so much for saying that. That's absolutely central to this.

If that goes into the self-preservation thing, a doctor knows that the buck stops with them. And if they give you the wrong diagnosis or give you the wrong treatment and you end up getting sicker or you lose a leg or you're put on a ventilator you can come after them right for misdiagnosis or whatever whatever whatever the lawsuit is who do you go after if we've decided that AI is going to be the end-all be-all of diagnostic tools exactly you go after Microsoft pretty sure they have some

deep pockets and they can protect themselves so which means they can afford to lose a few people that to a misdiagnosis. But I thank you, Frank. That's a really important point in this. Sorry, Dimitri, welcome to the show. I have been just a better with me to explain my case. I'm the guy who have experience and know that evidence are very important when you have to argue something. Now about one of the events that I experienced with our healthcare. I had a few brown spots on my skin that started to itch me. And then I went to a walking clinic and the doctor prescribed me something to put on the skin.

Then I asked, what is the diagnosis? And she told me the diagnosis and actually she wrote it for me. I asked her to write it for me to make sure that I'm not misspelling it. I went at home, I searched, nothing common with what I was experiencing. Then I went to my family doctor. I asked him, what is the diagnosis? He told me the diagnosis and I asked him, please write it down.

He wrote it down for me. I went home, I did search, nothing common with what I was experiencing. So you go to another person. Yeah, it says here that you got four different diagnoses. I went to a third doctor who is dermatologist. Yes, but here, I want to get to one last call. So please make your point for me.

I appreciate it. You got a lot of different diagnoses. So my point is that you cannot rely on doctors. Also, I would not rely on artificial intelligence because at that stage they are not so advanced. But what I rely and what I do, I just make a search on internet, but you need the skills to understand what is a false.

Yeah, you have to, and that is. Dimitri, thank you very much. And yes, you have to be your own advocate. Absolutely, that's essential. We've got time for one more. Ben, give me your case in 15 seconds. Yeah, good morning.

Where it'll be a perfect tool right now is there's like 40 or 50,000 deaths a year in Canada due to misdiagnosis of prescription drugs or cocktail of medication complications or just bad writing. Yeah, so that's going to help. Yeah, Ben, Ben, I got to run. I'm so sorry. Please don't don't be afraid to call back another time. Now the competition has begun. What will you need to stay in this house? What do I need to give you to get you out of that house? This wall has to stay. This wall has to go or we go. What do you think of the house?

I hate it. Okay, so I have a little bit of work to do. Design expert Paige Turner joins David as they ask homeowners the all-important question, Are you gonna love it or are you going to list it? You wanna tell them? Love it or list it. All new Sunday at 9. On Home Network.

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