The Ben Mulroney Show - This week in politics. A bold prediction or political nuttery - a December election??

Episode Date: September 15, 2025

Guest: Max Fawcett, Lead Columnist for Canada's National Observer Guest: Dimitri Soudas, Former Director of Communications for Prime Minister Stephen Harper If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Twitter: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ TikTok: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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It's time for this week in politics with Max Fawcett, lead columnist for Canada's National Observer, and to be. Beatrice Soutis, former director of communication for Prime Minister Stephen Harper. To the both of you, I say, happy Monday. Happy Monday, gentlemen. And so I want to start with a tale of two rallies. And both of them focused on sort of the state of their nations as it relates to the impact of, as the demonstrators felt, unchecked immigration. In Canada, we had a relatively small protest at Christie Pitts Park in Toronto.

Just a few dozen people came out. and they wore, you know, they had Canadian flags and they showed their faces and they were deliberately, they tried to be as peaceful as possible. They were met with a strong opposition. But then on the other side of the pond in the UK, there was, it was one of the biggest demonstrations I've ever seen about anything. I mean, there are a couple of newspapers to try to downplay how many people showed up at Tommy Robinson's, what's it called, a UK first, or whatever it was called.

Well, we want our country back, whatever. There were at least a million people in the streets. If there were a dozen, there were a million people there. And Tommy Robinson has his own baggage. But I wonder if you think that if we don't course correct in Canada, could we be on a path that leads us to something like that in the future? Let's start with. Dimitri, let's start with you this week.

Okay, well, I guess I drew the short straw. I think we're seeing a bunch of things collide. There's a crisis clearly in trust in our institutions, whether it's government, media, academia, courts. There's also this polarization and identity politics. Basically, it's a zero-sum thinking that if you compromise on something, then you're perceived as weak. I think the underlying issue in all of this is economic insecurity, especially amongst the younger generations. You know, being able to buy a home, build a career. And, you know, I think all of this in many ways we're seeing it play out with the assassination of Charlie Kirk.

No doubt somebody that was polarizing. but someone who had views and who justified those views by going to college campuses and what I was shocked with is those who disagreed with him we saw the footage, we saw it on X and on social media people out there celebrating

the assassination, the political assassination of an individual because they disagreed with him. Yeah. Max, I wonder how you see it, but I also want to add the further color that I wonder what you think the impact of if it gets past Ottawa's Strong Borders Act, Bill C2, that seems to me an acknowledgement by this new liberal government that the path we've been on has not necessarily been optimal for the nation. And this could help turn down the temperature and level set and bring us back to a place where we can all get on board with the belief that. Immigration, when done properly in this country, builds us into a better nation. Oh, I can't hear Max. Oh, for some reason we can't hear you, Max.

We're on mute? Let's try again, Max? No. How about you hang up and try again? And we'll continue this conversation. Dimitri, how do you see it? This is Bill C2, Canada's Strong Borders Act, that would give pretty significant powers to, you know, tell some people who have been waiting. in line for two, oh, he's back. Max, let's try you again. Can we hear you? Can hear me now?

There we go. Fantastic. All right. So tell me, but you, you were able to hear me, yes? I was. Okay, so the floor is yours. I, you know, I think I would go one step further than you on immigration. I think immigration is Canada's sort of secret superpower, maybe not so secret. Our ability to integrate people effectively into the economy, into society is one of the things that makes this country strong and we'll make it stronger going forward but the government has to rebuild trust in the system it broke that trust you know during covid with the huge surge in the number of students of temporary workers and i think there are very legitimate concerns and complaints there i think in a normal cycle they would have lost the election over that issue you know i've

written about that repeatedly but uh we have we have already course corrected in terms of the number of people we're bringing in you know the data is clear we are going to probably see negative population growth over the next 12 and 24 months because of those changes where we need to really course correct is i think around uh social media and its impact on these conversations you you see social media turning up the the heat in britain it is so obvious what elan musk is doing what tommy robinson is doing it is making people so angry uh it is divorcing people's feelings from the facts and we need to to think about how that affects our conversations here in canada and And look, you see it with Charlie Kirk.

I think the internet is cooking people's brains. This notion that the left is celebrating his tragic death when every mainstream political leader on the left has called it out as a tragedy just speaks to the sort of funhouse mirror that social media holds up to us. And if we don't fix that, we're not going to be able to talk about these things productively. Max, I take your point. And yeah, listen, I think I did notice that a great number of leaders on the left were trying to moderate and turn down the temperature.

But I don't know that you can give a pass that, a blanket pass and just say social media, Elon Musk is turning up the temperature. You know, what I have noticed in the, well, listen, since Stephen Harper, who the language started, Dimitri, I noticed it under Stephen Harper, where they'd reference when he would make a point

or say, oh, this is coded racial language. And now we don't even say that anymore. We just call people far right or extremist or fascist or Nazi. And what I've been, a theory I'm operating under is there are crazies on both sides. And let's just assume there's the exact same number on both sides and they are toxic and destructive. But what exists on the left is a permission structure to allow people to cheer on bad behavior like Luigi Mangione, like this assassination, like what happened to Donald Trump that does not exist on the right. If that same behavior were on the right, though the people on the right would have to condemn it. whereas we allow people to celebrate it on the left.

And again, I'll start with Dimitri, and then we'll give the last word to Max. Yeah, and I do want to jump on, you know, immigration being our superpower. It's also our kryptonite. Because if we don't have an immigration system whereby we welcome people who want to come here to work hard, raise their family,

give their children a better education and a better future, then we're not on the right path. I do agree with Max that, you know, you've had Bernie Sanders and and other Democrat leaders put out statements, but at the same time, and I will speak to both sides on this. We need to lower the temperature because those same leaders on the right or on the left. You know, Donald Trump was talking about it in the White House, you know, poking the beer.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, he's not helpful on this. He's definitely not helpful. So, so, so, you know, those same Democrat leaders were calling the Republican Party and Donald Trump an existential threat. You know, go back to the days where you used to take your opponents down based on rhetoric that was policy based, that was, that didn't go over the top. I will note the reaction to. Charlie Kirk has been one that I never expected to see, you know, people going on social media and literally celebrating and saying, you know, it's about time and let's do some more of it. And you know what? I'll say this. I'm glad some of these people got fired and lost their jobs. Yeah, well, you know, and you know what?

I've realized, Max, I'm going to give you a chance to put a button on this at the top of the next segment and I'll say this because I don't know if you heard me say this on this So I'm not a supporter of cancel culture, but in these cases where people are losing their jobs, to me, it's clear, if you've signed unemployment contract and you say something on social media that contravenes that contract, yeah, you're probably going to get fired. Whether it's on the left or the right, or you say something untoward that has nothing to do with politics, if you lose your job because it's something you say that you're inviting that on yourself.

What I would say next is you have every right to go get another job. I'm not going to hold that against you for the next job. But, yeah, this is not, it's not council culture. It's to use the language that was used just a few years ago. It's accountability culture. But lots for you, Max, to finish up with on the other side of the break. And then we're going to put a pin in this. And we're going to focus on what is coming up next for this parliament,

what people expect from Mark Carney. Don't go anywhere. This is the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to Max Fawcett and Dimitri Sudez. for this week in politics, our Monday edition. Max, I promise you the last word. We threw a lot at you in the previous segment we were talking about.

We're talking about a lot. So let me give you a moment to finish up with this conversation. Then we'll move on. Yeah, let me see if I can do it in three points. You know, the first one to the free speech issue and consequence culture, I don't really have a problem here. You know, if people are openly celebrating the death of somebody, that is just horrific behavior and there are consequences there.

I just hope that everyone remembers this the next time the free speech issue comes around to the other side. You know, Elon Musk famously said, you know, anyone gets fired for something they say on my platform, I'll pay your legal costs. Somehow I doubt he's going to be paying their legal costs on this one. So let's just, let's try to be consistent. Yeah, yeah, I agree. You know, on the, on the permission structure, on the left, I, you know, there are maybe some professors and TikTokers who are who are creating that. On the right, you have the literal president of the United States creating a permission structure. You have hosts on Fox News calling for retribution.

You have major figures in the online right calling for vengeance. So I think if we're going to talk about permission structures, we need to look at who's creating it and how much clout they have. And when we're putting the president up against a junior professor at a small college, I just don't think they're the same thing. You know, finally on the argument where, you know, the left has created this environment calling Trump a fascist, yada, yada, yada. I mean, George Orwell wrote in politics in the English language,

you know, 50, 60 years ago about how the word fascism had no meaning because it was so overused. This is an old concept that people abuse inflammatory language. I remember people called Obama socialist. You know, he was taking over your jobs. He's going to make you poor. This is what politics is. The problem is we now have a technology that pours truckloads of gasoline on this rhetoric and gets people amped up and doing doing things that we cannot have them doing. To me, that's the problem. Well, I do hope that on this show, I hope that even people who disagree with me appreciate that I'm trying to create an environment where we can have those discussions. I won't always agree.

Max and I, we don't always agree. But I think we, you and I are a beacon, an example, Max, of how people can chat across the aisle. All right, let's move on to what I think a lot of us have been hoping for, this next session of Parliament. And according to a study in the Globe and Mail, Carney won. Canadians want Mark Carney to focus on cost of living. And that's got to be, Dimitri, that's got to be, I don't know. It's got to be hard for someone like Pierre Poliyev to swallow because he wanted the last election to be about that, but he couldn't rest control of the narrative away from the

liberals who were very successful in making about Donald Trump and his threat to Canada. Yeah, no, I would say that cost of living with. unemployment numbers going up with a recession looming the rise in job losses but i also think crime and coming back to immigration will be key themes not only for parliament but i think these are issues that canadians are concerned with at the same time mark carney has a budget coming up a budget where on one hand he promises to have record level spending record level spending that he's going to have to push out in order to stimulate the economy, but he's also promising record level austerity, 15% over the next three years. What I'd say is it's going to be interesting to

see if this government will choose to survive or will survive past December. And meaning what I'm, what I'm insinuating with that is I believe there is a high, a good likelihood that we may be in an election by December. Wow. Listen, he doesn't. They don't have a majority, but my assumption, Max, was that there is no appetite out there to go back to

the polls. Like, whoever triggers an election, I think, is going to bear the ire of a lot of people who want this parliament to work. Yeah, I agree. I know, I think the NDP for all their... For those, no one can see... Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt, Max, but people can't

see Demetri Suda's shaking his hand. shaking his head and we'll come back to him after but max take take over well i just you know the n dp may talk a big game about not supporting the budget but they have no money they have no prospects they have no leader uh i just cannot imagine that they have the courage to do this when they didn't have the courage to bring down the trudeau government at a time when it would have been very advantageous for them you know they could have positioned themselves as the official opposition they couldn't do it then i don't see why they're going to do it now uh and are they the ones who matter I mean, how many are they?

Seven in a thousand comments, isn't it? I mean, it would be that. They have enough. Yeah, they have enough. Yeah. Demetre, why are you shaking your head? You don't think that, you don't think if we. I'm shaking my, I'm shaking my head because every time I hear people say Canadians don't

want an election and who's going to dare trigger an election. Canadians never want an election. Let me tell you, after the first 24 or 48 hours of talking about, why are we having an election? We're actually having an election. And then we start debating the issues. and I don't put it past the Liberals. How is the NDP going to support this budget with 15% austerity cuts? How are they going to support this budget where Mark Carney says he wants to slash the public service?

He wants to slash operating costs and federal programs. So the socialist party, i.e. the party that is left of center, is going to support a budget with 15% cuts. And on the other side, how are the conservatives going to support a budget that has record level spending? We're now talking about a deficit that could be up to $100 billion. And how is the Block Quebecois going to support this budget on austerity yet again? So I'm just doing the math here and saying, you know, Mark Carney is a staunch conservative for the left. He is a staunch socialist for the right. And I would, you know what, if I was, God forbid, a liberal strategist, I would try and trigger this election with a weak NDP with no leader.

they basically had a caucus retreat meeting and all they did I read an article somewhere they had a caucus retreat meeting and apparently they did finger painting for their caucus retreat. I'm not kidding. So with NDP? Yes. Oh God. Yes.

Okay. So Matt here, Max. And they went for a walk on the beach to just reconnect and sink kumbaya so absolutely I'd want an election if I was a liberal. Max, there's a lot that Dimitri just pointed out there but he makes a good case. yeah i look at you know if god forbid he was a liberal strategist i think he might be right um i don't think

that the liberals are quite that machiavellian um in this moment you know i think part thank you for in this moment in other moments uh they would be but i think he does want to um see some of this through he has he has a you know a mandate to govern and i think he wants to get some of this stuff done and see how it plays out um but look i i discount no possibility in politics. Dmitri's been doing this longer than I have. He could be right. We could be in an election. And what a fascinating election it would be. Well, parallels to 1979. No, Dmitri. I mean, a young, new government coming in and they get felled by their own budget only to have the other party come. Well, that's where the big

question mark would be. If there's a parallel, it could lead, it would lead to the conservatives coming in. So let me take it. The liberals. So let me take it one step further since you raised 1979. There is one party that could have abstained or not voted down the Clark government in 79, the Keditsitsch, the social credit. What happened to the social credit after 1979? They disappeared. And that is the real risk for the NDP that the NDP disappears.

I got Max nodding. Look at that. If you had told me that today, we would be raising the specter of the short. live 1979 minority Tories. I didn't have that on my bingo card, but that's why I love these conversations. Really quick, I do, yeah, 30 seconds each. Thoughts on Mark Carney's housing announcement.

Max, start with you. I'm fine with it. I think it's abundantly clear that there is a role for government in addressing this. The government needs to be moving everything it can on this file. This is not a time for having sort of ideological hangups. And so if the government can get more supply in the market, that would be a great thing, especially since we're seeing big problems in the Ontario

housing market right now. The rest of the country is doing well. Ontario is backsliding. So, you know, let's get all the levers of government at work. Dimitri, 30 seconds to you on housing. It's an announcement that it's patchwork for me. So it's good. 4,000 new.

What irks me is prefabricated homes. I'd like to see the dream of a 25 or a 30-year-old to be able to put a, a down payment and buy his or her first home and raise their family, that dream to be reignited. And right now, it's nothing but that. It's people dreaming of the possibility of homeowners. And nothing wrong with prefab homes. Real homeowner.

No, there's nothing wrong with prefab homes. But the word alone says it's a temporary fix to a bigger problem. All right. We're going to leave it there. Gentlemen, thank you so much. And thank you for listening. Enjoy the rest of your Monday. If you want, you can go find the podcast.

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