The Ben Mulroney Show - This week in politics -- Canada holding firm on Palestinian statehood

Episode Date: August 27, 2025

Regan Watts -  Founder Fratton Park Inc., former Senior aide to minister of finance Jim Flaherty Sharan Kaur - Political strategist, former Deputy Chief to the Minister of Finance If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Twitter: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ TikTok: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash Mulruni. This is the Ben Mulroney show, and I appreciate each and every one of you for joining us, and I appreciate my next two guests as well, because it's time for the midweek panel

for this week in politics. Please welcome to the show. Regan Watts, founder of Fratton Park, Inc., as well as former senior aide to the Minister of Finance, Mr. Jim Flaherty. And Sharon Carr is joining us as well, political strategist and former deputy chief for the minister of finance to the both of you. I say, happy Wednesday. Hello, ma'am. Happy Wednesday, let's just take one second.

Regan, you're a good-looking man. However, your background is prettier than you are. Well, I am fortunate to be away with my family, and I am always grateful. when Mother Nature blesses us with a day of sunshine and warmth. So I appreciate you reminding me just how far I have to go with my looks. All right. Let's talk about the Canada holding firm on this is the moment, according to our government, to recognize a Palestinian state.

And he was standing next to the German leader who said the exact opposite. No, this is not the right time. The conditions have not been met. And Sharon, I'll start with you. I think our prime minister could have said, could have had all the same information when he made this announcement that surprised a lot of people. He could have said all the same things.

But had he put the things that he wants to see after this thing becomes a state as conditions in order to make sure that they get, they get a, I mean, it's all carrot and no stick. And I just wonder. why hasn't, why haven't they walked this back even a little bit? Well, I think, listen, the dynamics, the dynamics matter, the language matters, and I understand the perspective that you and many others have around the conditions. And I think those conditions are there. They're just not being stated the way that I would say many folks would want them to be in.

Of course, the prime minister does not want to have a Palestinian, a Palestinian region that is governed by Hamas. I think that is completely accurate and fair. Of course, hostages have to be released. And I think they've said things at times, but putting them as conditions, like, they're there. They're just not being said how I think everyone wants them to be said. Yeah, but see, that's a communications problem.

Regan, you're in the communications business. I mean, this is, to me, this is, I would have, I would have rewritten the language pretty substantially, even if they wanted, and we could have gotten them to where they want to be, but Canada would have come out looking a lot stronger. So, Ben, there's a couple of things that I think are worth noting. First off, it has been 691 days since the hostages were taken,

and there are hostages who have still yet to be released, and we cannot forget that in the context of the issue we're discussing. That's the first thing. Second thing is, you know, the prime minister made, decision and set out a series of conditions in his announcement. And his comments in Germany, I felt were more or less consistent with where he came out in the first place. Now, look, when the Germans have observations that are nuanced as they are, given their historic record, it's worth noting and acknowledging, particularly when it comes to these types of issues. But I think the person

who I found most thoughtful on this issue is my friend Alan Kessel, who is a former chief legal officer of the Department of Foreign Affairs and is now with the McDonnell-Lauri Institute, who accurately, and I'm paraphrasing here, phrased the prime minister's announcement on Palestinian statehood as a win for Hamas. And I agree that Sharon, I agree with Sharon, nobody wants to reward or have a Palestinian state that is run by Hamas. But in the case of the prime minister's positioning, that is what they're doing. And so I suspect there will be continued pressure from not only the Jewish community, but others in the international community who support Israel, which are not numerous, but there's a few. And I think the German position,

which is nuanced, is a reflection of where, you know, this is an issue where there's lots of extremes. And the Germans are kind of in the middle, which is unusual for the Germans. And Canada has staked out its claim. But, you know, to give the Prime Minister credit, he's at least sticking to his guns because he must, you know, believe that his announcement is the right one for the country. And the conditions, while they have not been met, are clearly laid out for him to be able to support a Palestinian state and I think that's okay. I've got to say the

yes, jump in, please jump in. So I just want to add one here because and I apologize I am camera on. I'm just recovered from probably the worst illness of my life and I'm saving your listener slash view. Well, I'm glad you're feeling better. This discussion has been such a difficult

and polarizing discussion even specifically around the conditions. I hear a lot of people who whenever, like, if you look at any imagery of Gaza right now, there's nothing left. Like, there's, it's complete destruction. There is, like, top to bottom, there's nothing there. And when I... The tunnels are still there.

Yes, but here's my question. I'm just being... I 100% would love it. I would beg of Hamas to give the hostages back and however many are left dead or alive. But what I'm seeing from people is they see. this imagery and their immediate gut reaction for the most part is to say yeah well you know what it's ruled by it's ruled by Hamas give us a hostages back but could we for one second stop and say look at what we've done to an entire enclave an entire community talking about moving

two plus million Gazans down to south Sudan and no one is no one is focusing on this bit it's always about the conditions listen Hamas I think has is has achieved what they've wanted to achieve for the most part by mass destruction of the entirety of Palestine. But I don't think that we have to look at the conditions as the only sign of success here. Sorry, Ben, I have to push back on that. Israel's objective was to defend its borders and its right to exist. Israel's objectives were to have the hostages who, some of whom were babies returned home. That is Israel's objective. It is not Israel who has a stated policy that Palestine should not exist. It is the Hamas and Palestinian Authority who have that view that Israel

should not exist. And the two are not the same and there should be no moral equivalency, one. Secondly, for a nation or a state of Palestine to exist, it must renounce terrorism. I have not heard from any leadership in the last six months or in the last two years, a renounce a renunciation, pardon me, of terrorism that is perpetrated by Hamas. Until we hear those types of words, you know, we need peace, not slogans. And, you know, the previous prime minister, the long national nightmare that was Justin Trudeau, thankfully is finally over. That is what we got.

We got slogans. What we need is peace. I believe the prime minister is trying to achieve peace in his way with this declaration and the conditions. I'm not sure it'll work, but I believe Mr. Carney is genuine when he, when he pursues this path. But Reagan, just on that note, and I understand. understand what you're saying, that Israel has one objective. But you, as an international partner, your objective to humanity and mankind should be, yes, get your hostages back. But I'm sorry, Israel is making no actual viable attempt at rescuing the hostages. And I've had this

conversation many times where people say, yes, because it could kill them potentially. And I understand that. But I don't know if that's true. In the history of urban warfare, there has never been a scenario like this. No one has ever gamed anything like this out. So for us to look at the results of the campaign and reverse engineer so theories on what they're

doing on the ground, I think that's a fruitless exercise. But Ben, if Israel the most intelligent military and service in the world is able to get into other countries and kill actual terrorists, I do not by the argument

that they cannot get in there and find their people. No, but that's an apples. Sharon, I'm going to push back. That's an apples and oranges situation. Again, in those other countries, they did not spend every single penny that came in to build a series

of tunnels underneath. But they didn't. Sorry, it's twice as big as the... Yeah. Palestinians. Like, this is my frustration with this discussion is that we have made it dehumanized actual Palestinian people by labeling them all.

No. No, no. We're talking about Hamas here. That's not what we're doing. That is not what we're doing. We're talking about Hamas. Sharon, this is about state. This is about statehood and the recognition of a state and the conditions for which that is possible.

And the reasonable people, wherever you sit on this issue, would say that no state should have a stated goal of eliminating another state. That is the goal of Hamas. Okay. Guys, we're going to leave it there. We got lots more stories to get to. I always like it when one story takes off. But we've got many more to get to after the break. Don't go anywhere because I've got the best political panel around on the Ben Mulroney show.

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You're listening to the Ben Mulrooney Show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show and welcome back to Regan Watts, who is in heaven and Sharon Carr, who is getting over the worst cold of her life. It's a cold, yes? I don't know if it was COVID, to be honest, it might have been COVID. Might have been COVID. Oh, my goodness. Well, I'm glad you're feeling better. We're pulling a little bit of an audible here.

We're going to talk about some other stuff after, but Regan reminded us that there is a story that came up very, very recently. So we're going to tackle that now. And look, you may not be on Team Poliev. You may. But one thing is very clear is that team is chomping at the bit for September 15th so they can get back in the house. they are they are eager to hold this government to account and and do their job to oppose and they've added propose to the to the slate of responsibilities uh but conservative leader pier pauliev says he will use the looming return of parliament to push the carne government into getting rid of what he is calling the carbon tax 2.0 this is a clean fuel regulations that currently add say 8.77 cents to a leader of gas in the province of new brunswick regent Why did you want to talk about this? Well, I think there's a couple of things here.

And Ben, just for your viewers, I'm not in heaven. I am in Cape Cod. And while I'm not a Kennedy supporter, the Kennedys did get it right by coming here in the summers. So a couple of things come to mind with respect to with this announcement, Carbon Tax 2.0. I'm reminded of the Simpsons episode where Ralph Wiggum is sitting in the back of the bus and he's laughing nervously on his way to school saying,

I'm in danger. This announcement, Carbon Tax 2.0 is more of the greatest hits from Mr. Polyev. I mean, he might as well be singing Stevie Wonder, I just called to say I love you to Justin Trudeau, because it is more of the same that got him into the position he was in around this time last year in the public opinion polls. The reality it is, most Canadians have moved on from the carbon tax issue. The Prime Minister came in, and one of his early moves was to remove the consumer carbon tax,

and they gave him enormous credit for that, despite Mr. Polyeb leading on that as a public issue. Canadians acknowledge that the Prime Minister was the one who actually removed that from as an irritant. I don't hear Canadians talking about carbon pricing these days. Maybe they are in Prince Edward Island or the Maritimes or in Atlanta, Canada, where Pierre made this announcement. But it just strikes me this messaging and this announcement is more of the same. But all I can say is, let me let me jump in. I just want to jump in for a second. I was going to say, let me just say this, Ben.

Let me just say this. When Mr. Poliyev goes back to his greatest hits, the guy. is demonstrating that he is a fork in a world full of soup. And you can't eat soup with a fork. You've got to eat soup with a spoon. And so that means he's got to move on and evolve. Yeah. But look, stranger things have happened

than a politician highlighting something that was not on the people's radar until it was highlighted. And then all of a sudden it becomes a thing. And look, he demonstrated by beating that drum for a very long time

that Canadians did not like the carbon tax and did not want the carbon tax and if he is successful at creating the narrative that they have they have MacGyvered themselves a new carbon tax I don't know that it's impossible to he could galvanize some people around that

I mean maybe and if I was six inches taller I could possibly play in the NBA doesn't make it just because it's potential doesn't make it so I'm interested in what Sharon has to say on this but I'm just not sure going back to the same play book is going to do anything other than double down on the on the on the on the trenches that

he's digging for himself uh in advance of his leadership review as opposed to expanding his forest coalition all right sharon what are your thoughts on this is this in fact the carbon tax 2.0 so listen i got to say um i like to give politicians credit where they deserve credit and pierre pauliev who is an excellent communicator uh on things that matter to people and when when the carbon tax was top of mind and he was harping about it in his messaging in every way, shape, or form, it was a successful and effective messaging tool. It is not anymore. So I don't see why going back to it is going to do him any goods.

I think we saw during the campaign when he couldn't pivot. I think he needs to stick to the advantage of affordability. We're not, like, I'm kind of dazzled dazzled by tariffs and everything right now. but Pollyev, if he has any hope of succeeding, he's got to drop the carbon tax schick, and he's got to focus on affordable housing and how does he differentiate himself and make himself look different.

So I'm kind of with Regan. I don't see why tap back into the carbon tax pollutants I was going to help him. Well, during the campaign, and this is the last thing I'll say on it, he did predict that once, if the liberals form government, they would find a way to reintroduce a carbon tax.

So this, look, you guys may be right, or we may all be right, just looking at it from different angles. But this may be him trying to put a period at the end of the sentence that he started in the election campaign. So you can go back to it and say, I told you so. But you know far more about this stuff than I. So it may not be, the juice may not be worth the squeeze. Okay, I want to talk about Canada Post posting a massive loss in the first quarter of this year. I think it was almost, almost $500 million. This is a broken business model.

I think we can agree. Sharon, like the employer said, this is as much money as we can give you. And then the Canada Post people say, we can't accept anything close to that, which means they can't make the numbers work. And not only can they not make the numbers work, but now we see that they are in the worst financial straits

that they have ever been in. How do you rescue, how do you rescue an institution like Canada Post that is, it feels to me, at least from a fiscal standpoint, is so far gone. You don't. Honestly, you don't. You can't. We've seen this happen before. It's the same song and dance.

At a certain point, something is not worth rescuing. And listen, there is immense, valuable, I would say, reasons why Canada Post should exist in parts of the country, in rural parts of the country, in remote parts of the country. but what's happening right now like it's not worth it the ROI is not there we're basically in constant negotiations or in strike threats like there's no recovering honestly I think if there was ever the time to privatize rebuild burn down like whatever you want to call it get pigeon carriers now is the time and I'm sorry when we're in a situation when the government is looking for ways to cut spending and the government is looking at ways for efficiency Carney is in a position where he can make that call.

And I think it's time we do it. Yeah. But what do we replace it with? That's the million dollar question. There are people, especially in rural areas of this country, that still entirely depend on the mail, just as they did generations ago.

So we have to remember that there is a very real need by certain people living in certain parts of this country for that. So Regan, what do you think? Well, I think the organization is actually quite top heavy. We haven't addressed this, but the number of executives in previous calls, the number executives who work at Canada Post is outrageously high. And it takes a lot to run a male company. Don't get me wrong.

But you don't need 30, 35 vice presidents, executive vice presidents, senior vice presidents, etc. So they certainly need to thin out at the top. I think your comment in the previous segment around Mr. probably have around the juice not being. worth the squeeze. I think that's kind of what we're getting at here with Canada Post. I mean, half a billion dollars a quarter is simply not sustainable and we need to have some kind of solution developed. My suggestion is appoint a panel of two or three prominent

Canadians who have business experience with supply chain and logistics being reflected as part of that panel to figure out a solution for how we provide for rural mail services, which are critical as you discussed and necessary, and to propose solutions for urban folks like those who are on this call and live in suburban and urban Canada who maybe don't rely on Canada Post as much as they need and see what the panel comes back with and I expect the Prime Minister would adopt those recommendations from those folks.

Yeah, I mean, listen, they already rely on private industry to keep the Canada Post going. Without a cargo jet, which is the largest logistics company. Without cargo jet, Canada Post does not deliver mail through the air. And so there's already a partnership there. That could be a model on which to build the next Canada post. But one thing is clear. Throwing more money at this problem only makes the problem worse.

Guys, thank you so much for joining me. Enjoy the rest of your vacation. And Sharon, feel better. Take care, Ben for me. Bye, guys. Join us aboard CN's podcast, The Inside Track, your front row seat to the railroads and supply chains powering North America. In episode two, we unpack CN's approach to temperature-controlled shipping with Kegan Donahey. From frozen goods to protect from freeze shipments, learn how CN's specialized intermodal fleet helps deliver on time and on temperature.

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