The Ben Mulroney Show - This week in politics Friday edition

Episode Date: June 27, 2025

Guests and Topics: Guest: J. D. M. Stewart, Writer, historian, teacher, public speaker Guest: Chris Chapin, Political Commentator, Managing Principal of Upstream Strategy Guest: Warren Kinsella, Former Special Advisor to Jean Chretien and CEO of the Daisy Group If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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We appreciate you. We appreciate that you're building this show with us and we appreciate our guests during this this week in politics panel because they're helping building this show with us and we appreciate our guests during this, this week in politics panel because they're helping build this show as well. Please welcome Chris Chapin, political commentator, managing principal for Upstream Strategy, Warren Kinsella, former special advisor of Jean Chrétien and the CEO of the Daisy Group

and a new addition to the squad. Please say hi to JDM Stewart. He's a writer, historian, teacher and public speaker. To all three of you, I say hello and happy Friday. Happy Friday. We gotta start with JDM because you've got three initials and I need to know what they stand for. Well, the J is for James, the D is for David, my father,

and the M is for Murray, my grandfather, so pretty simple. But why did you go with like JD Stewart? It's a mouthful with the initials. It is, but you know what it is? There were these old scrapbooks at my cottage and from my great grandfather. And back in the day, gentlemen used to go by their initials in print.

And so I was taken in by that elegance of the historical names that people went by just by their initials. If you look at an old yearbook, that's what you'll see. So I adopted JDM. I love it. All right. Well, we're going to talk about that.

Your book that's coming out soon on during the next segment. But first, let's talk about a major accomplishment in Ottawa, the Senate that was looking like it wasn't going to be able to pass the nation building bill of the Mark Carney government. They worked tirelessly to get it done. They got it over the finish line. And Warren, I'm going to start with you. This is a level of bipartisanship of cooperation between the Tories and the liberals,

the likes of which I don't remember seeing in, at any point that I've been paying attention. And that bipartisanship made its way into the upper chamber as well. uh, uh, seeing in, uh, at any point that I've been paying attention and, and that bipartisanship made its way into the upper chamber as well. Yeah. And I think it was because everybody agreed on the need to expedite, um, resource extraction and development of our infrastructure, uh, for energy. We're an energy producing country. It'd be foolish to leave our resources in the ground. And so there was a consensus on that. If you look at the polling that the Angus Reed Institute did yesterday, Ben, like even New Democrats agree with that.

So there's consensus across the board. There are some, if you look at the poll, there's concern about the environment still. That is one big criticism that is there about C5. There's a preoccupation about consultation with First Nations. And I represent a lot of First Nations. I can tell you they are in fact very concerned about what it means to them. But on balance, you know, this is kind of how the House of Commons is supposed to work.

Yeah. And they don't always have to disagree and they agreed on this one. So Chris, take me through the political calculus that must have gone on in the back rooms of the Conservative Party because obviously these values align with Conservative values, so there's a lot of, it makes a lot of sense that they would vote for this, but you're also handing your opponent a really big victory. So walk me through what they must have been thinking. Well, I think then it comes to the fundamentals of this, right?

Like at the end of the day, the conservatives believe in everything that bill seeks to accomplish. Conservatives have been talking about building pipelines to the East and West Coast for decades now. And so to stand in its way would just be, I think, political suicide. So, I mean, I think that's the easy calculus is, do we fundamentally agree with what this legislation is trying to accomplish? Yes. Okay. Then we must support it. I think for them, they're also looking at this as, we'll get this through, but now we're going to hold you to your word. Right. Like now you can't make up an excuse. We've empowered the government to speed this up. The ball's in your court and we better start getting this done. No more excuses. JDM put this in a historical context for us, because as I said, I don't remember this level of cooperation on something this big between the Tories and the liberals in my lifetime?

Well, I remember the Meach Lake Accord from the late 1980s when there was all party support for something as important. Yeah, you're right. So it is rare, but it does happen in moments of national crisis or the imperative of national unity. So it's happened before, but it is rare. And I think during the 1980s, we saw that with the Meach Lake Accord. Well, listen, we enjoyed a period of the parties coming together, a big kumbaya moment. However, it ended when we got word that the Liberal Party, through the Federal Infrastructure Bank,

provided a billion dollars in financing for the BC ferries that the EB government purchased from China. And we heard about it after, I believe, Christia Freeland sort of dressed down David Eby for doing that. And now the Tories want hearings on this loan that was effectively given to buy these ferries is I don't know, to me, I don't think this rises to the level of something I really care about. Chris, tell me why I should care about this.

I think it comes down to judgment call, right, Ben? The question at the core of this is when we talk about elbows up, when we talk about defending Canadian interests and putting Canadian suppliers and manufacturers first ahead of the United States with the ongoing trade war, or China's retaliatory tariffs, do we mean it? And, you know, the financing is fairly hands off politically, but I think it just runs deeper that are we serious about actually putting Canada first and looking at our builders? Because as I understand, you know, the financing of this and the selection is, they just made it, you know, who could give us these ferries the cheapest,

which is a conservative I'm all for. But, you know, do could give us these fairies the cheapest, which is a conservative I'm all for. But that, you know, yeah, but do we actually do we actually mean what we say? But Warren, that's sort of my point, you're either going to go and get the cheapest deal and save the taxpayer money, or you're gonna, or you're going to find a more expensive deal, but you're going to work with a company that is that represents your value. So you're going to you're going to upset people either way. That's why I really can't get too upset about this. your value. So you're gonna you're gonna upset people either way. That's why I really can't get too upset about this. Yeah. And, you know, if you live in BC, and I did for a number of years, you know, those

fairies functioning is critical, not just for people's lives, but for the provincial economy. And they have not been operating well, in recent years. There's considerable use, they're breaking down and so on. So there's no question there's a need. And then you have to balance as you guys have both just pointed out, cost vis-a-vis speed and how quickly you can get it. Freeland actually in responding to the Tory criticism was pretty open about accepting that there needs to be

These funds these this expenditure needs to be done in a careful way But you know at the end of the day everybody in BC would probably say to us You're a bunch of Easterners. I don't know what you're talking about. We know those fair. We need those fairies and we need them yesterday JDM in the early days of this Carney government, there were a few slip ups in terms of messaging. Some key people in the cabinet said some stuff they weren't supposed to say. And I think they all got addressing down

by the prime minister who doesn't want to run that sort of ship. This feels like another one of those when the minister of transport said something and then turns out, the call came from within the House. So I don't know how Mark Carney is going to respond to this, but I don't suspect he likes this sort of thing. I don't think he likes it. He likes to run a tight ship. But what you're also seeing here, Ben, is the collision of elbows up and buy Canadian with the reality of trying to get good prices for things.

And if we want to buy Canadian, and remember the Canadian shipbuilding company didn't even bid on the contract because they said they found out that cost was the only imperative, it's going to cost more money if you want to buy Canadian goods. And so Canadians and the government are going to have to come to that realization. Warren, what do you think of this, this, this sort of this, I mean, it was a faux pas, the minister should have known that the money came from the, from the bank, from the federal infrastructure bank, and she didn't, that's an egg on the face. I don't think Mark Carney enjoys having those sorts of headlines? No. And, you know, it has some symptomatic, a little bit of what we've seen from this government

since they have been revealed to the country. We've got a prime minister who we got to know sort of during the election campaign, but the people who surround him are the Trudeau people, you know, for the most part. In some cases, you know, they've been characterized as the dregs of the Trudeau people. So there have been a fair number of mistakes, you know. And so this morning we're seeing all of this hype and hullabaloo and hoopla about a deal, a trade deal with Trump. Now, as some of us suggested might happen,

well, not so fast, and we're gonna lower expectations about that. So there's been some communications misfires with this government since they've been revealed. And this is, I think, yet another example of that. Well, guys, thank you so much. Don't go anywhere. Chris, we're gonna start with you

on the other side of the break. This is the Ben Mulroney Show, This Week in Politics. Welcome back to This Week in Politics on the Ben Mulroney Show. We're joined by a great group of people, JDM Stewart, Chris Chapin, and Warren Kinsella. Chris, I promised I'd come to you first.

I don't think I'm alone when I was quite pleased to see how destructive the Americans were as they looked to set back the nuclear program of Iran. But there are some voices out there who say it wasn't as effective as we think. And the knock on effect is what we saw. Iran approved a parliamentary bill calling for an end to the country's cooperation with the IAEA, which is the International Atomic Energy Agency, meaning it's no longer committed to allowing nuclear inspectors into its sites. There's a part of me who's very cynical that they were ever being forthright with the IAEA.

What do you think? I think you're spot on, Ben. I don't think we could ever really trust Iran. There was a reason the United States took the military action they did on those three sites is because they know full well that they weren't doing this for the civil purposes they were claiming they were doing it for. There was the constant acknowledgement and understanding

that this was to build a nuclear bomb. And so I think this is perfect proof of why the United States were right to do what they did in the first place. We can't trust Iran. We've never been able to trust Iran. And that this was their first response afterwards is to ensure we have no line of sight moving forward on what they're doing is the exact reason why. JDM, how do you see it?

I think that it's still really early to tell how it's all going to play out. There's been a lot of difficulty in reading just how much damage was inflicted on the Iranian nuclear sites. We hope that it was as severe as possible. I think the whole world would hope for that, but we're still unclear. I think there's a bit of a fog of war mentality in terms of getting truthful information out of, well, Iran for sure.

Even the United States intelligence hasn't been completely clear on how much damage was inflicted. So I've got a bit of a wait and see attitude for this. You never know, maybe another strike is going to be needed six months from now, a year from now. It's really hard to say at this stage. Warren, you and I, I think, are of the same mind that Iran represents the national embodiment

of a bad faith actor. But I think I was hopeful that by now there would be some sort of movement of the people rising up in protest and possibly mobilizing to, I don't know, dislodge this regime from its place atop the people. And that's been the hope of all of us since the beginnings of the revolution since 1979, hasn't it? But you know, these guys have survived multiple American presidents, multiple administrations

that have attempted to dislodge their grip on power, and they're still there. So it's always folly, in my opinion, to underestimate the Ayatollahs. They've become the number one exporter of terrorism around the world, and they have proxies around the world. As to what happened, as you know, I'm not a big fan of Mr. Trump, so I tend not to believe anything that comes out of his mouth. He said that it was completely obliterated. And then the Iranians said that it was superficial damage and they're liars too.

So what do you believe? I think the IAEA, who is the entity who inspects these facilities and has the greatest degree of knowledge, they have said yesterday that there was damage. They don't believe the centrifuges at the Fort Ohio uranium enrichment plant are operational still, but they've admitted that they don't know for sure because they haven't been permitted access and the Iranian parliament has said they're not going to give them access. So we don't know. I want to spend a little bit of time now on this news that the federal government has modified the eligibility requirements for work permits

that are linked to Canada's International Student Program. And I want to talk about it through the lens of the intersectionality of the crises of our own making in this country. Because on its face, of course, you would reduce those numbers. We have too many people chasing too few jobs. So in a vacuum, this decision makes sense.

But the knock on effect is fewer international students enrolling in colleges and universities, as well as a dearth of employees in the trades. And it really shows you that, you know, if you're going to attack a problem, you have to attack it from so many different angles. JDM, what do you think? I think we are unraveling a lot of the Trudeau mistakes on this file, and it's going to take some time. One of the things I noticed about it right away

is that it appeared to be very evidence-based in the way that they eliminated certain areas of employment versus others. So they appear to be taking evidence-based in the way that they eliminated certain areas of employment versus others. So they appear to be taking a measured and informed view of how they're going to reform the program. And it's also when you talked about trades, Ben, you know, these new rules apply to the non-degree programs. And so there may be some knockoff effects from hitting those types of students who can do that type of work, because people in degree programs

are completely exempt from that. They may not be looking for the same kind of work. But the thing I like the best about it is that it appeared to be based on evidence, which is something new. Yeah, it's not based on feelings. Chris, is this as a case of, look, we have to make a decision like this,

and if it has a negative follow-up effect, so be it. It just means that those industries like the trades, like the colleges, they have to adapt. They have to figure out how to work in a world where we right-sized the work permits situation. Yeah, I think so, Ben. And I think JDM nailed it. the work permits situation. Yeah, I think so, Ben. And I think JDM nailed it. You have to start somewhere. And they needed to take action.

The problem got so out of hand under the liberals when Trudeau was still at the helm. And I think, you rarely hear me say this, but a really good first step for the Carney government. I think they needed to address this and they needed to, you know, hit it head on. And I think that's what they've done. And it's I mean, you guys all know this. There's no there's no easy solution when it's, you know, when you're taking broad

strokes at this from a from a government perspective. But I think in this regard, they have been fairly tactical and it's a good first start. Warren, I think the greatest compliment I could give our new prime minister is that he really does seem to have the capacity to keep a lot of balls in the air. There are a lot of crises that he is trying to solve simultaneously, this being one of them. Yes, for sure. But for the hopefully few people who are going to be sitting in hospital emergency rooms on this long weekend or almost long weekend waiting for a doctor or waiting for a nurse. Keep in mind this, these international students fill critical gaps in our labor workforce,

and there's no greater gap we've got at the moment than in healthcare. And so there's no question, you know, what the Trudeau guys did caused, you know, a crisis in housing, a crisis in affordability, but we need to get people with expertise, particularly in healthcare and in, you know, some other specialties into Canada, because we're not producing enough here. Our universities are stuffed to the rafters. So we need to make some changes. So something for everybody to think about if you're against international students coming, that's going to have implications for how soon you get healthcare in this country. Warren, you have a book that's going to be coming out, I believe, in the fall.

But right now, I want to talk to JDM about your new book. Tell me about the... Is it out yet or is it coming out? My book doesn't come out until the fall. I guess we'll be competing for sales with Warren. But mine's a new history of Canada's prime ministers. Going all the way to the beginning? Yeah. So it's from McDonald and it goes along to Mark Carney as well. So it's the first survey of Canadian prime ministers in 25 years. So I

think it's a book that's much needed and long overdue. Are there any surprises in the book? Well, you know, I think that's what buying the book is about. When you find out what those surprises are. Well, listen, I hope that you put your political commentary hat on more often. And I'd love to have you back. To all three of you, I say thank you. I wish you all a wonderful, happy Canada Day weekend. I think we owe a great debt to this country. And I want to celebrate it in the manner

that I feel it deserves. But thank you very much for joining us here today. And have a great one. Thanks guys. Thanks, Ben. Thanks, Ben.