The Ben Mulroney Show - This week in politics - Mulroney Parks Canada

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

Guest:  Max Fawcett -  National Observer columnist Guest:  Anthony Koch, Managing Principal at AK Strategies and former National Campaign Spokesperson for Pierre Poilievre -     If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠ Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show, and the show marches on, and we march on in style with our political panel to kick off the week. It's this week in politics panel with Anthony Koch managing principal at AK Strategies, former national campaign spokesperson for Pierre Poliev. And do we have Max? We got Max as well, Max Fawcett from the National Observer. Thank you both for being here.

Thanks for having us. Thanks for having me. Gentlemen, I can't go a day without making something about me. And so we're going to kick off this panel talking about the National Parks, or Parks Canada, pulling a really odd move and saying that they cannot judge the value of someone like my father's contribution to Canada until 25 years after his passing, which would be a full 35 years, almost 35 years, since he stopped being prime minister. Now, in a country of 150 years of history, seems to me if you're not going to get his,

if you're not going to get the value of anyone's contribution, 25 years after they stop being prime minister, you're never going to get it. This seems like a deeply political and cynical and very small-minded and petty move by a group of unelected board members on something as important as recognizing our leaders with monuments and places of national significance. Anthony, I want to hear from you on this first. You know, I'm going to glaze your father right now because I'm a very big fan of those as a conservative from Montreal. But your dad wasn't just a prime minister. He was a business leader leader. arguably, in my opinion, the most successful post-prime ministership premier in Canadian history.

But also, it's not like he was prime minister for four and a half minutes. This is a guy who, you know, as someone once described him, dragged Canada into the 21st century, kicking and screaming. He's the guy who brought about Canada U.S. free trade, privatized a bunch of crown corporations, was prime minister for the better part of a decade, won the largest majority in Canadian history, tried to renegotiate Canada's constitutional promise. So I'll put it to you this way. If Brian Mulroney is not a figure of historical significance in the Canadian context, then nobody is. And Max, I'm not looking.

Thank you for that, by the way. I'm not looking for that sort of thing from you. But to me, this is not what our country needs. You know, after my dad passed away, I was shocked in the best possible way of how people were able to put down whatever their politics were in the moment where they were feeling one way or another and simply look at the the the a man who wanted to do to do something for his country and that really made me feel very proud to be Canadian proud to be a Mulrooney as well but proud to be Canadian and and we're currently like living in in a time where we're trying to be as post political as possible I take great pleasure in seeing conservatives voting

alongside liberals for the betterment of the country. And this, to me, flies in the face of that. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You know, you don't want this for me, but you're going to get it for me. Your dad was probably the best conservative prime minister in Canadian history, probably top five all time, you know, cared about the environment, helped get rid of apartheid in South Africa. He did a lot of things that many people may not associate,

with the Conservative Prime Minister. So he was a great Canadian. Nobody should question that. The issue I have here is I'm not sure that this is actually true. You know, this is reported by one outlet. We haven't seen it confirmed. If you look at the Parks Canada website, it still says that there's an exemption for former prime ministers.

So if this is true, whoever is responsible for this decision should be fired, should be publicly disgraced. It is a horrifically divisive decision, tone death and all the rest of it. I'm just not sure that it's actually true. Well, we received a letter from them trying to clarify this, and I double-check with my producer because I had him read it. It was either deliberately confusing or it was poorly written,

but in both cases it seems like it did seem, Mike, that they were confirming that this was true. Well, yeah, because they said in the one sentence that it was that prime ministers were exempt from this 25 year, but then in the next sentence it was, this confusing. This new policy from 2020. It was a terribly written letter. Anyway, to be continued.

To be continued. And now, now we want to move into the here and now and not to 25 years from now. Max, we'll start with you. Do you think it was the right move for the government to step in and order the Air Canada flight attendants back to work? No. I think we're sort of seeing that play out with how angry the union is, you know, how clearly the public. is on side, you know, with the union in this, in this labor dispute, you have, you have sort of the NDP rising from the ashes and suddenly finding an issue that they can actually

be credible on. So it seems like it's a political mistake. It seems like it's probably a strategic mistake. I understand why they thought they needed to do it. But I just don't really understand what the strategy is here. You know, people, I think, you know, it's very obvious. You see Pierre Pauliev and the conservatives rallying behind organized labor. Yeah. Uh, whoever, would have thought that that would be a thing. So I think they misread the moment and we'll see how much damage this does to them politically. But people are mad about this right now and understandably. Yeah, I'd love to hear from you now, Anthony. What are your thoughts? I think at least in the short run, it's a political error. Depending on how the union decides to

respond over the course of the next few weeks, that may change. So there are a number of people that I know who are stranded right now who've got something going on. Obviously, I think the idea that flight attendants don't get paid for significant portions of the time that they're on the clock is questionable. You know, the conservatives are taking the principal position on this. I do agree, though, the more important,

beyond the conservative stuff, I do think this is the first time where you've seen a noticeable, clear opportunity for the new Democrats to actually create some distance from them between the liberals. That's been the problem that they've had for the better part of the last 10 years.

People just started to sort of say, NDP, liberals, sort of the same sort of idea. But now this is the first real big opening. I think we're probably going to see a few of those over the course of the next few years. When people are questioning for a while, is the NDP dead at the federal level, I think these are the kinds of issues that will breathe new life into the party, which as a conservative, I kind selfishly hope for. Well, you know, and listen, I think so as well. I think there might be life left in the old girl, as they used to say. But it's going to determine, I mean, it's going to see,

how do I say this? It's so much is going to depend on what they do with this. meaning they need to recognize that this is where their votes are and not stoking the anti-Zionist and anti-colonialist language that doesn't garner them necessarily votes. This is where their votes are. And we're going to talk about Pierre Poliyev, possibly probably winning his by-election after the break. But it's this sort of story that pops up that makes me shake my head

when people are so convinced that Pierre Poliyev's time as leader is done. We don't know what the next two and a half, three years are going to have in store for this government, case in point, an air Canada strike. So why anybody would be so sure that his time as leader is done, it befuddles me, Anthony? No, 100%. And this is exactly, you're absolutely right. There's a lot of things that will have to be seen. I think the by-election will go very well. This is the most conservative riding in the country in many respects. I don't think anybody expects Mr. Pollyeff to lose tonight. But that's going to be the big thing, right? This is the first time that we're actually

going to properly see Mr. Pauli with Mr. Carney in the House of Commons. I think this fall session is going to be very important in terms of setting the tone for what things are going to look like. Like you said, we'll see how long this parliament lasts, but I think at this point, I'm inclined to agree with you that we're probably looking at at least two to three years. Yeah. And I'll put the same question to you, Max. I mean, there are people who've written him off, right? It's done. Stick a fork in him. He's done. But they seem to forget that prior to 1993, Jean-Cretzian was actually labeled yesterday's man. And he came back in one back-to-back-to-back majority governments. To me, I don't know why people are so eager to just close the book on Pierre

when who knows what the next few years are going to bring. You've learned that over the last few years where, you know, it looked like he was. a shoe in to win a majority and then events happened and all of a sudden the deck got got shuffled so I you know I would never be one to suggest that he is is done and cooked I think liberals would be happy to see him stick around as leader because I think they they believe they have a good head-up comparison between him and Carney on on a lot of sort of personal approval things but if he if he is able and willing to change if he's able to willing to learn from the last election learn from the results and

and make, you know, the necessary adjustments. Then, you know, of course he could fulfill his, you know, his destiny. But all of his behavior over the last few weeks and months suggest he hasn't learned. You know, they thought that the campaign went perfectly. They thought that they didn't do anything wrong. Yeah. He still has the same sort of chippish. Hey, hold that thought.

We're going to talk about it on the other side of this break because we're talking about the by-election next on the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to Max Fawcett and Anthony Kosh. They are, of course, joining us for a this week in politics panel this Monday. Guys, thank you so much for sticking around. Pleasure. So we were talking before the break about this by-election that will ultimately see Pierre Poliyev back into the House of Commons.

And Anthony, let's start with you. What do you think needs to change in the public-facing Pierre-Poliev that could help his long-term success in politics? I just think that they're collectively among conservatives needs to be a recognition that the last election happened and that we don't need to relitigate it 500 times. There's not saying that we've done that per se, I think there's an instinct among some

to sort of try to relitigate that election and just recognize that that political context is largely over. There's a new political context that's budding, right? Just like we're just talking about, the situation with the strike for Air Canada, different things like that, and that we need to be forward-looking and take the opportunities as they come moving forward.

Obviously, we're still very much in the honeymoon phase for Mr. Harney. There's some early signs that that might be abating. But just to sort of understand that it's not 20-23 anymore, it's not 2024 anymore, and shortly it won't even be 2025 anymore, and that we need to sort of be forward-looking in terms of the issues that we address.

Yeah. Let me throw something at you, Max, which is that one of the reasons that I think our new primary, minister had so much success is he was a blank canvas for so many people. We saw his resume, but we didn't necessarily know him, which means we still don't really know him. We're getting to know him on the job. And look, he has a lofty, lofty expectations to live up to. And if he falls short, that's going to be what we know about him. And while I'm not suggesting that that's going to happen, there are a lot of unknowns. There are a lot of questions. There are a lot of mountains that he

has to climb. So it's not a foregone conclusion that because he's the prime minister today, that is going to, that's going to, that's a guarantee for the next election. Absolutely. You know, he, the more decisions he makes, you know, the more he's going to upset different constituencies and create cleavages that different political parties can take advantage of, you know, the problem I see for the conservatives is twofold. One, it seems like they're still behaving as though, you know, Justin Trudeau is the leader and it is the Justin Trudeau Liberal Party. And it's not. And they kind of have, you know, like Anthony said, they have to let that go, put it in the past and actually address the political opponent that is in

front of them. The second issue is that Donald Trump is going to be president, at least until 2028. And it still doesn't feel to me like the conservatives have a good answer to that problem. They are clearly divided internally over whether they like Trump or don't like Trump. clearly divided on whether they think we should be tough on the Americans or we should surrender to the Americans on trade negotiations. And until that resolved itself, somehow, I think they're always going to have to, they're always going to be fighting that impression among a large part of the public that they don't really know which way to fall on the most important issue of our time. Yeah. I don't, Anthony, I don't disagree with Max on that,

but I would, I would add to it and say, yeah, it's hard, it's hard for the Tories to be able to take a position on how we deal with Donald Trump when I don't know that the liberals have a consistent position on how they deal with Donald Trump. Correct. I mean, you even had Mark Carney a few days ago saying that Donald Trump was opening up an opportunity for peace between Russia and Ukraine, something that would have had a conservative branded as a traitor all of five seconds ago. So, you know, right now, forget elbows up. I'd say our negotiating position has rapidly devolved into knees down, if you know what I'm talking about. You know what? I thought I'd heard. everything and I'm surprised I haven't heard that one and now now I'm upset that I know that one

there you go so I you know you can always count on me to give you a sound bite but at the end of the day I think it's exactly that and in terms of the salience of a Donald Trump issue I absolutely do believe that it's going to dominate the next little bit but I do believe that two to three years from now trade negotiations and this whole threat that we all went through of Trump making jokes out annex in Canada. I believe that will be less salient. I think that's a part of this too. The conservative voter coalition is more natural. It's more strong. It's more sustainable in the long run. The liberal coalition, like you said, was very much a function of a unique political circumstance. And the fact that Mark Carney was this wonderful CV that didn't really have a lot

of things that you could peg on him per se. That will change over the next two to three years. And like you said, you're already seeing these cleavages. A lot of the new Democrats who came back to the liberals to vote for the liberals because they were afraid of Donald Trump or whatever are going to start gravitating back. And that coalition of diverse people, like again, you've got the purple-haired urbanites and sort of vaguely pro-business boomers who both found themselves in Mark Carney's coalition in 2025. I'm not so sure the liberals are going to be able to keep all those diverse factions happy over the course of the next two to three years. So I think there's a lot of reasons for optimism. So I want to bring something up that, and this is not me attacking

Mark Carney, because I'll give him credit when credit is due, and I'm going to call something out when I think it's performative nonsense. And outside of his office in what used to be the Langevin block, there are two flags. One is the Canadian flag, and he's replaced the other Canadian flag with the intersex pride flag. And the rules are apparently very clear that the Canadian you can have whatever you want to, but the Canadian flag has to have prominence. That is clearly not the case when both flags have the same, have the same, are at the same level. And this should not be a hot take, Matt, Max Fawcett. But we have worked long and hard as a society so that the Canadian flag includes the pride flag, the intersex flag, and so many other

flags. It's part of the identity of what that flag represents. And the Canadian flag, to me, is the most important flag. It's a flag above all else. This is not Pride Month. We are in August. To me, this is, I don't know if it's performative. I don't know what it is. But I don't think it's a hot take to say

the Canadian flag is the most important flag and should fly above all else. So this is the kind of stuff that is going to cost the conservative the next election. If they get obsessed over flags and identity politics and things. No, no.

Okay. Let's be clear. like the Ottawa Pride Parade is later this month in August. That is why the flag is there. The Canadian flag is still there. The Pride flag will go down once the Pride parade is over and everyone can just relax. But like this idea that, you know, this is some sort of betrayal of Canada. Like I would gently suggest that a small part of why Mark Carney put it out there is bait

for precisely this kind of overreaction. And he is delighted to see it because it speaks to the fact that this is still triggering with the conservative base and they're still going to distract themselves with these. sorts of issues rather than brass tax economic issues, trade issues, quality of life issues. I think two things can be true at once. And again, Anthony, I don't know how you feel, but if it's a trap, then it's a wedge issue. To me, it's not about that flight. It could be any flag that they put out there. The fact is the Canadian flag includes all those other flags. And it's not a reaction to the gay community. I challenge anyone to find anything I've ever said

that is not in full staunch support of the gay community. That's not this. To me, this is a, if it is a distraction, he shouldn't be playing distraction games. Yeah, but I'll take a broader issue with what Max said, you know, and this is sort of the general consensus. I got an article that's going to be coming out on this actual topic very shortly, not specifically, but about the way conservatives have approached politics

for the last 30 years, where we've basically ceded any and all cultural and social agenda to the progressives. and we put all of our eggs into the economic basket. We busted our head against walls talking about balance budgets and marginal tax cuts and deregulation. These are all important things, but if you look at where the tides are going, and if you look at the kind of people

who are being brought into the Conservative Coalition, not only in Canada, but across the world, these are people that are motivated primarily by cultural and social issues, not always primarily economic ones. So the economic message is important, but there has been a widespread backlash against what I call the excesses of the progressive social agenda. And that needs to feature very prominently in the conservative narrative moving forward,

not only on stuff like this, but also in particular on immigration, on multiculturalism, on stuff like medical assistance and dying, sex education, all sorts of stuff like that. So I do think this is maybe not the most salient or most important issue of all time, but I think at a macro level, the cultural battle is salient again. And for the first time, at least in my lifetime, I think conservatives are on the winning side of that argument, and we should press our advantage. Gentlemen, I want to thank you for kicking off the week with enthusiasm and a great panel, and we'll talk to you soon.

Thank you. Sounds good. All right. And thank you again for joining us on this Monday on the Ben Mulroney Show. Of course, if you want to keep the conversation going, you can follow us on Twitter on X. I'm Ben Mulroney. The show is at Ben Mulroney's show, and we'll post the podcast for you. We'll post it on YouTube.

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